Immigration Law

[Kakokeko]

[b]Hey I just watch the news and they said that Pennsylvania wants to do the same thing as Arizona.[img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ireful.gif[/img][/b]

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' date='05 May 2010 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1273038336' post='466712']
[quote name='Charley' date='04 May 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1273024150' post='466677']
I am sorry I just want to ask something. why dose everyone seem to think they dont pay taxes? to get a job that pays anything in this country you need a ss number and even if they pay for one that was produced via the black market they still pay taxes under that number.

now i know what your going to say they get paid under the table. but that is actually quite hard the only people that get paid under the table (for the most part) are earning below minimum wadge (thats why there paid under the table) and if you earn that little you dont even qualify to pay income tax regardless of where you were born.
[/quote]

They pay taxes, and never get any of the money back in benefits because they don't dare try and claim them. I have to wonder if a former employer of mine was right when he once said that without all that unclaimed money our retirement systems would have long ago been bankrupt. He believed the federal government intentionally supported illegal labor. I have nothing that proves him wrong.

'Rani
[/quote]

Rani, the statistics don't bare out your statement. Once upon a time long ago, I had the same misconception. Statistically speaking, the last study I read put their Income tax "contributions" at just over 25% of that paid by a US citizen. Their sponging off the system is lower than the average family, at around 50%, but still, that is a net loss for the nation.

It's easy to get out of a big witholding, they just claim more dependents, if they are working with a traceable cheque. They pay no taxes when they are working under the table. The CBO uses a 50-55% compliance rate for income/fica tax "contributions". (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf)> If you notice, Cali tries to skew the statistics by using two sets of numbers in an "and/or" fashion... Typical. Just how can you say that they are propping up the system when only half of them ever pay taxes? That makes no sense at all. Moreover, they typically don't own property, making their contribution to the local school district very low, if even existent at all, all the while, their children, typically not proficient in English, cost more to educate than the average US citizen's child. (Minnesota Department of Administration, Office of Strategic Planning and Results Management, The Impact of Illegal Immigration on Minnesota: Costs and Population Trends (December 8, 2005), available at www.leg.state.mn.us/lrl/issues/immigration. asp.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html Cost 26,000,000,000.00, and pay 16,000,000,000.00... Hmmm, that is propping up the system? Where did you get that math? Must be the same place bamasama got the healthcare math!

Poached from "thesocialcontract.com":
“More than one in four immigrant households received the EITC in 2000—nearly twice the 13.2 percent rate of households headed by Native Americans. And because immigrant households are larger via higher fertility, their EITC payments are larger than those received by native households.

“Bottom line: Immigrants accounted for about 13 percent of the U.S. population in 2008 but receive an estimated 26 percent of EITC benefits—about $12 billion.”




Just how do you figure that a bunch of illegal aliens, who are stealing 12 billion dollars of our tax money, are propping up anything more than the fraudulent gov't of Mexico? That is wrong, silly, and a bit naive... or maybe just the results of too much time at the liberal-koolaid-fountain.






The highschool that banned the Stars & Stripes, then booted the students wearing them did a wonderful job of lighting a fire under the average local here. If they had no opinion about illegal aliens before, they do now!

[Charley]

I come from an incredibly racist area of the country.
to most people that live where i do they group everyone into the same. whether they are here legally or not.
and things in this thread are starting to sound a bit familiar to me. Please remember not all immigrants are Illegal most are here legally.

[Chreees]

I like the way you think, Mushy... I agree with you on all your points. Very well put.

Rani, I totally agree... Let's build a wall like China did! It'll eliminate a LOT of it altogether just doing that. People don't realize how vast and open it is down there. Almost impossible to patrol every single mile of the border.

[liquidglass]

I agree we should build some sort of wall or border and honestly I have no problem with non-lethal force being used against people coming in illegally. (sonic ray gun anyone?) Some people might support people coming over illegally and their rights but if someone wanted to sneak into our country illegally to cause us harm Mexico is the perfect place to do it from.

Here's the thing most illegal immigrants DON'T understand. Ok a majority of them don't pay taxes (if they get an ID then they are hardly illegal to the tax system) However, because of the ignorance of an immigrant that believes it's better to be illegal they get paid slave-labor wages. By becoming a citizen they could make more money and support themselves and their families in other countries much easier.

I will say that illegal immigrants do support our economy but with only about 20% of their income simply because they have no choice.

Now this is my personal opinion and I won't cite any sources for it. but I believe any person who comes in illegally without proper visiting/student/work papers should be immune to the protections of the constitution. Which some might view as harsh. But if you're not supporting the country you're residing in to the degree that other people in your situation are then you should not be granted the same rights. plain and simple.

Another view I hold is this: learn english (at least try) It may sound like an ignorant argument but I believe it is a perfectly valid one. For example, If I moved to spain, germany or any other country that spoke a language other than my primary one I would attempt to learn it to the best of my ability. Even when I travel out of country I learn enough for my visit. Sure some countries have english alongside the primary language, but no one should expect it as a given right. Generally people who come here legally attempt to do so, why should illegal immigrants be granted any leeway?

Now am I saying people should go to a country and ditch their native language? No. but you should conform rather than expect the majority of the population to do so for you.

[Kakokeko]

[quote name='liquidglass' date='16 May 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1273994920' post='468283']
I agree we should build some sort of wall or border and honestly I have no problem with non-lethal force being used against people coming in illegally. (sonic ray gun anyone?) Some people might support people coming over illegally and their rights but if someone wanted to sneak into our country illegally to cause us harm Mexico is the perfect place to do it from.

Here's the thing most illegal immigrants DON'T understand. Ok a majority of them don't pay taxes (if they get an ID then they are hardly illegal to the tax system) However, because of the ignorance of an immigrant that believes it's better to be illegal they get paid slave-labor wages. By becoming a citizen they could make more money and support themselves and their families in other countries much easier.

I will say that illegal immigrants do support our economy but with only about 20% of their income simply because they have no choice.

Now this is my personal opinion and I won't cite any sources for it. but I believe any person who comes in illegally without proper visiting/student/work papers should be immune to the protections of the constitution. Which some might view as harsh. But if you're not supporting the country you're residing in to the degree that other people in your situation are then you should not be granted the same rights. plain and simple.

Another view I hold is this: learn english (at least try) It may sound like an ignorant argument but I believe it is a perfectly valid one. For example, If I moved to spain, germany or any other country that spoke a language other than my primary one I would attempt to learn it to the best of my ability. Even when I travel out of country I learn enough for my visit. Sure some countries have english alongside the primary language, but no one should expect it as a given right. Generally people who come here legally attempt to do so, why should illegal immigrants be granted any leeway?

Now am I saying people should go to a country and ditch their native language? No. but you should conform rather than expect the majority of the population to do so for you.
[/quote]



[b]It's funny how people sometimes can talk without knowing anything, by you saying that we the LATINOS only support 20% of the U.S. economy, it is noticeable that you don't live in the Latino-crowded states, it's true that some Latinos live out of Welfare, that they only have kids to get money from the government, but I don't think it's fair to judge a whole race based on just few people, we the Latinos give money to the U.S more than any other race, the Latinos have jobs that the Americans wouldn't have for any reason, I'm not trying to make trouble right here I'm just giving my opinion.[/b]
[b]Another thing is that most of the Latinos that come to the U.S. for a "better life" learn english, again don't judge just because you saw few Latinos that didn't speak English.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]People have to inform themselves before giving an opinion.[/b]

[liquidglass]

[quote name='Kakokeko' date='17 May 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1274148152' post='468462']
[quote name='liquidglass' date='16 May 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1273994920' post='468283']
I agree we should build some sort of wall or border and honestly I have no problem with non-lethal force being used against people coming in illegally. (sonic ray gun anyone?) Some people might support people coming over illegally and their rights but if someone wanted to sneak into our country illegally to cause us harm Mexico is the perfect place to do it from.

Here's the thing most illegal immigrants DON'T understand. Ok a majority of them don't pay taxes (if they get an ID then they are hardly illegal to the tax system) However, because of the ignorance of an immigrant that believes it's better to be illegal they get paid slave-labor wages. By becoming a citizen they could make more money and support themselves and their families in other countries much easier.

I will say that illegal immigrants do support our economy but with only about 20% of their income simply because they have no choice.

Now this is my personal opinion and I won't cite any sources for it. but I believe any person who comes in illegally without proper visiting/student/work papers should be immune to the protections of the constitution. Which some might view as harsh. But if you're not supporting the country you're residing in to the degree that other people in your situation are then you should not be granted the same rights. plain and simple.

Another view I hold is this: learn english (at least try) It may sound like an ignorant argument but I believe it is a perfectly valid one. For example, If I moved to spain, germany or any other country that spoke a language other than my primary one I would attempt to learn it to the best of my ability. Even when I travel out of country I learn enough for my visit. Sure some countries have english alongside the primary language, but no one should expect it as a given right. Generally people who come here legally attempt to do so, why should illegal immigrants be granted any leeway?

Now am I saying people should go to a country and ditch their native language? No. but you should conform rather than expect the majority of the population to do so for you.
[/quote]



[b]It's funny how people sometimes can talk without knowing anything, by you saying that we the LATINOS only support 20% of the U.S. economy, it is noticeable that you don't live in the Latino-crowded states, it's true that some Latinos live out of Welfare, that they only have kids to get money from the government, but I don't think it's fair to judge a whole race based on just few people, we the Latinos give money to the U.S more than any other race, the Latinos have jobs that the Americans wouldn't have for any reason, I'm not trying to make trouble right here I'm just giving my opinion.[/b]
[b]Another thing is that most of the Latinos that come to the U.S. for a "better life" learn english, again don't judge just because you saw few Latinos that didn't speak English.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
[b]People have to inform themselves before giving an opinion.[/b]



[/quote]

I agree it is funny how people can talk without knowing what they are talking about. And while I see your point next time I'd appreciate if you'd simply ask for clarification. I was referring to illegal immigrants, not the entire Latino population. I was also fairly careful even in my tired state to not specifically point out any specific sect of peoples as there are many other countries getting illegal immigrants in (china anyone?)

If you truly believe in informing yourself, then please read more carefully before responding. I actually live in NC which while not the most highly populated state by immigrants it is largely because of the farming culture.

I also didn't state "they're taking our jobs" I agree they take jobs that most people only take when they need money. I stated they could become legal and demand more money which would be the smart move.

I didn't say ALL immigrants didn't attempt to learn English, I was stating my opinion towards those that do not. If someone attempts to learn the language (as I stated) it would not apply to them, correct?

Also part of my degrees are in studying the economy, populations, etc. where does your "expertise" come from besides being a latino who in fact DOES contribute? Just as you stated I cannot (and I did not) generalize an entire race based on just a few examples then you can not contradict yourself and make a statement based on your few examples.


[b]The first step to informing yourself is reading. Try it. Rather than take offense quickly and without cause. [/b]

[b]Don't throw all your anger and opinions at a statement that attempted to remain as objective as possible just because it angers you that most people generalize. [/b]

[Rani]

A point was made this morning on The View. The Arizona law isn't about illegal immigration. It's about illegal [b]Mexicans[u].[/u] [/b]No illegal Canadian, or illegal Swede, or even an illegal Nigerian is going to be stopped because they might be illegally in the state of Arizona. It's about a state bordering Mexico and this law is focused on Mexican illegal immigration. So, I'm sorry, but to say it isn't racial profiling or pointed at a certain race is bullshit. It's clear cut discrimination against those who physically reflect the heritage that is the target of the law. It needs to be stricken down. So I'm backing Los Angeles and San Diego and all those other cities who are boycotting Arizona business, goods and services. I placed an order on Amazon.com today. I paid a little bit more to use the sub-vendor who wasn't located in Arizona. And I'll keep making the same decision until the law is gone. Now......

Our national immigration policy is also bullshit. It needs to be changed, it needs to be enforced, and it needs to work for the protection of the American people. And the Fed need their feet held to the fire until it happens. A friend of mine had an excellent idea. Get caught illegally is this country, go to jail for 10 years. The absolute worst scum of the earth jails we have that should have been torn down 20 years ago. And the quota for your nation gets dropped by one. (Everybody knows there are immigration quotas.) Hire an illegal, same jail. Set a "crime stoppers" type permanent reward for reporting an illegal alien and a larger one for business hiring illegal aliens. Sure it will cost us money to house them for 10 years, but not as much as the trip home over and over again, along with salaries, detention facilities, etc. that we're already paying for now. And I'm thinking illegal immigration and hiring of illegal immigrants will drop to pretty much non-existent before the first 10-year term is served.

'Rani

[Venger]

Rani I hate to disagree with you but I think playing the race card is just a ploy for people who are against the law. If I am a police officer in Arizona and I pull you over and your in a car with a bunch of Chinese kids or Arabs or white people with thick European accents I have the right to ask your status. You can refuse to answer (5th amendment) but then I am gonna run your name through the system. Is it easy to profile,sure,but If I was a cop I would be overly cautious and check everyone that I am suspicious of. Now If it is a car full of black or white or mixed guys and I pull them over for speeding and no one has an accent I am not going to be suspicious so why ask. The law does not allow them to ask even if suspicious unless they commit a crime first. Everyone should be run through the system if jailed.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='18 May 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1274229863' post='468575']
Rani I hate to disagree with you but I think playing the race card is just a ploy for people who are against the law. If I am a police officer in Arizona and I pull you over and your in a car with a bunch of Chinese kids or Arabs or white people with thick European accents I have the right to ask your status. You can refuse to answer (5th amendment) but then I am gonna run your name through the system. Is it easy to profile,sure,but If I was a cop I would be overly cautious and check everyone that I am suspicious of. Now If it is a car full of black or white or mixed guys and I pull them over for speeding and no one has an accent I am not going to be suspicious so why ask. The law does not allow them to ask even if suspicious unless they commit a crime first. Everyone should be run through the system if jailed.
Ray
[/quote]

I live in a immigrant heavy state, so we will agree to disagree. But the fact remains that the law would never have been passed or even suggested if it were not a state bordering Mexico where the Federal Government has done nearly nothing to stop the influx of Mexican cartels. The fact remains that any police officer in Arizona isn't going to ask for identification from anyone with blond hair and blue eyes. No matter their accent. And by the way, being from TN, to most of the north and west of the country, [u]you[/u] have an accent. (Just a teasing note, but really accent has almost nothing to do with the issue.)

By the way, I'm not completely certain but I don't believe anyone is actually required by any law to carry identification. You are required to carry a drivers license if you are in the act of driving, but what if you're not? I could be wrong and I'd hope someone can cite me chapter and verse, but I don't believe identification is required by law in and of itself.

'Rani

[Charley]

Indiana has an id law. Rani.

it has nothing to do with immigration though. It dates back to old vagrancy laws. you have to show id upon request to any law enforcement official here or they can detain you until they can verify who you are.

although I have never known or heard of anyone detained by the cops for it.

[Rani]

[quote name='Charley' date='18 May 2010 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1274241373' post='468598']
Indiana has an id law. Rani.

it has nothing to do with immigration though. It dates back to old vagrancy laws. you have to show id upon request to any law enforcement official here or they can detain you until they can verify who you are.

although I have never known or heard of anyone detained by the cops for it.
[/quote]

I suspect they don't enforce it much because they don't want it tested for constitutionality/legality. That little blurb about presumed innocence. So that if you say you're Charley Bigchiefpainintheass (lol....'cuz I can almost imagine you saying that), unless they can prove you're not, don't they kinda have to believe you? They could detain you, and run your prints, but if they come up negative for everything? How could they disprove you are who you claim to be? There are actually people who have never gotten identification for any reason. The developmentally disabled, etc., who have never driven or worked.

'Rani

[jezter6]

Similar laws (providing identification upon request) is likely on the books in most states. Like many laws (seatbelt laws is an example) it's really more of a tag-along to other offenses. The point is not that you must carry ID or the gestapo will get you, it's more along the lines of if an officer stops you for some sort of suspicion, that they have the ability to find out who you are to see if you're involved in any way, or wanted by the police, or whatever. Otherwise, you can just say your name is John Smith and walk away, which would let plenty of people get away and time to run and hide.

Again, it's also not like you have to carry it, but if you're asked to provide identification as to who you are, you must get it to them some how. The easiest way to do that is to just have your license or other ID on you, but often you can get away with someone bringing it to the police for you.

As to the profiling part -- I'm really getting sick of all the P.C. movement yuppies getting all up in arms about this. The problem is illegal hispanics, and to think otherwise is patently absurd. Why doesn't it target blonde white people? Because there aren't MILLIONS of blonde white people flooding across the borders every day. Sure, there are some here illegally and we should punish them appropriately just as we would any other illegal, but when such a huge OBVIOUS group of people are being targeted based on statistics, location, and pure fact -- it's hard to claim "racial" with a straight face.

Put it this way. You have a lineup of 5 guys in Arizona, one of which is illegal. You tell a cop he's allowed to pick ONE person to guess the illegal. He's going to guess the hispanic most of the time (unless he's suspicious that you're trying to pull a fast one on him). Why? Because it's likely thousands of times more probable that the hispanic is illegal than any of the others. Is it profiling? I guess...but in this way profiling is the way to take the best guess.

[Stuie]

Question:

Since when did profiling take the place of racist?

Criminal Profiling is a profession.

Law Enforcement does a lot of training, on profiling, interviewing, and observation tactics which can all be lumped into the category of profiling.

Let's face it people, profiling works.

Cop sees a white female walk into the store he is in, her hands are to her side, while her fingers shake and fidget rapidly. She is rapidly shifting her gaze all around the room. They watch her. Middle aged black man walks into the same store, makes a purchase and stands at the exit talking on his cell phone. If the officer can only watch one of them, he's not watching the black guy.

Statistically ever person that has robbed "Stuie's International Bank" have all sported Red Haired Goatees. Dude with a red haired Goatee walks in ... you think everyone doesn't flip on to high alert? Is it racist, bias...nope [b]Patterns and Statistics.[/b]

[Venger]

[quote name='Stuie' date='19 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274289681' post='468666']
Question:

Since when did profiling take the place of racist?

Criminal Profiling is a profession.

Law Enforcement does a lot of training, on profiling, interviewing, and observation tactics which can all be lumped into the category of profiling.

Let's face it people, profiling works.

Cop sees a white female walk into the store he is in, her hands are to her side, while her fingers shake and fidget rapidly. She is rapidly shifting her gaze all around the room. They watch her. Middle aged black man walks into the same store, makes a purchase and stands at the exit talking on his cell phone. If the officer can only watch one of them, he's not watching the black guy.

Statistically ever person that has robbed "Stuie's International Bank" have all sported Red Haired Goatees. Dude with a red haired Goatee walks in ... you think everyone doesn't flip on to high alert? Is it racist, bias...nope [b]Patterns and Statistics.[/b]
[/quote]
this is the very point I was trying to make in my posts.If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck,it is in most likelihood a duck.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='19 May 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1274299907' post='468679']
[quote name='Stuie' date='19 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274289681' post='468666']
Question:

Since when did profiling take the place of racist?

Criminal Profiling is a profession.

Law Enforcement does a lot of training, on profiling, interviewing, and observation tactics which can all be lumped into the category of profiling.

Let's face it people, profiling works.

Cop sees a white female walk into the store he is in, her hands are to her side, while her fingers shake and fidget rapidly. She is rapidly shifting her gaze all around the room. They watch her. Middle aged black man walks into the same store, makes a purchase and stands at the exit talking on his cell phone. If the officer can only watch one of them, he's not watching the black guy.

Statistically ever person that has robbed "Stuie's International Bank" have all sported Red Haired Goatees. Dude with a red haired Goatee walks in ... you think everyone doesn't flip on to high alert? Is it racist, bias...nope [b]Patterns and Statistics.[/b]
[/quote]
this is the very point I was trying to make in my posts.If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck,it is in most likelihood a duck.
Ray
[/quote]

I do get what you're saying guys, but although I look like a typical white girl, I'm not one. Most who believe that the profiling that occurs isn't racially related have no reason to have ever been treated as a minority is treated. Many of my friends are retired cops. The things that are said when people think they're talking to just another white girl are ignorant. Many of my other friends ore minorities. The stories they relate, plus those incidents I've personally observed, are bordering chilling. This particular law is racially motivated. It just is. It's directed at Mexicans, and yes, specifically Mexicans illegally in Arizona. But that doesn't mean it won't spread over onto those who are not only naturalized citizens but native born citizens of Mexican descent. In actual point of enforcement, that's what it's entirely about.

And yet, I actually sympathize with Arizona being pushed into a corner to do something, anything, to stop the dangerous Mexican cartels taking over their state. I get why they passed the law they did. The fact that it's going to backfire is bad, but hey, when backed into a corner you take what shots you can to protect yourself. That's also just the way it is. Now it's escalating to the point where Arizona is threatening to turn off electric power to California because we choose not to be part of it. Where on earth does it stop? They only thing that actually pisses me off, is where it the Federal government in all of this? Will they take notice when states are suing each other or are they going to wait until Arizona tries to secede from the Union altogether because it refuses to protect them?

'Rani

[Kakokeko]

[quote name='Venger' date='19 May 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1274299907' post='468679']
[quote name='Stuie' date='19 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274289681' post='468666']
Question:

Since when did profiling take the place of racist?

Criminal Profiling is a profession.

Law Enforcement does a lot of training, on profiling, interviewing, and observation tactics which can all be lumped into the category of profiling.

Let's face it people, profiling works.

Cop sees a white female walk into the store he is in, her hands are to her side, while her fingers shake and fidget rapidly. She is rapidly shifting her gaze all around the room. They watch her. Middle aged black man walks into the same store, makes a purchase and stands at the exit talking on his cell phone. If the officer can only watch one of them, he's not watching the black guy.

Statistically ever person that has robbed "Stuie's International Bank" have all sported Red Haired Goatees. Dude with a red haired Goatee walks in ... you think everyone doesn't flip on to high alert? Is it racist, bias...nope [b]Patterns and Statistics.[/b]
[/quote]
this is the very point I was trying to make in my posts.If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck,it is in most likelihood a duck.
Ray
[/quote]




Unfortunately that's the way it goes, another thing; Mexico couldn't do what it does with the Cartels, if it wasn't for the help that the U.S drugdealers give, not everything that happens in the Us-Mexican border has to do with Mexico, the only think that Mexico has is that Mexico doesn't know how to control the moves they make, the U.S is in someway smarter than Mexico when it comes to keeping those things secret, therefore Mexico ends up with all the Blame. I'm not saying that Mexico is innocent but the U.S has to do a lot with it.


I would dare myself to think that the Arizona thing was in someway a little push to the "Reforma" 'cause Obama hasn't done anything about it. I don't think that the Amnesty is going to happen, even though it would help the U.S economy a lot.

[Rani]

[quote name='Kakokeko' date='19 May 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1274304607' post='468691']
[quote name='Venger' date='19 May 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1274299907' post='468679']
[quote name='Stuie' date='19 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274289681' post='468666']
Question:

Since when did profiling take the place of racist?

Criminal Profiling is a profession.

Law Enforcement does a lot of training, on profiling, interviewing, and observation tactics which can all be lumped into the category of profiling.

Let's face it people, profiling works.

Cop sees a white female walk into the store he is in, her hands are to her side, while her fingers shake and fidget rapidly. She is rapidly shifting her gaze all around the room. They watch her. Middle aged black man walks into the same store, makes a purchase and stands at the exit talking on his cell phone. If the officer can only watch one of them, he's not watching the black guy.

Statistically ever person that has robbed "Stuie's International Bank" have all sported Red Haired Goatees. Dude with a red haired Goatee walks in ... you think everyone doesn't flip on to high alert? Is it racist, bias...nope [b]Patterns and Statistics.[/b]
[/quote]
this is the very point I was trying to make in my posts.If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck,it is in most likelihood a duck.
Ray
[/quote]




Unfortunately that's the way it goes, another thing; Mexico couldn't do what it does with the Cartels, if it wasn't for the help that the U.S drugdealers give, not everything that happens in the Us-Mexican border has to do with Mexico, the only think that Mexico has is that Mexico doesn't know how to control the moves they make, the U.S is in someway smarter than Mexico when it comes to keeping those things secret, therefore Mexico ends up with all the Blame. I'm not saying that Mexico is innocent but the U.S has to do a lot with it.


I would dare myself to think that the Arizona thing was in someway a little push to the "Reforma" 'cause Obama hasn't done anything about it. I don't think that the Amnesty is going to happen, even though it would help the U.S economy a lot.





[/quote]

I don't know that amnesty in itself would help the economy, but I do think that maybe we could redirect funding towards job creation instead of paying for immigration agents raiding companies, etc. Coming from the construction industry, I would guess a minimum of 25% of all construction workers in border states are illegal, with stolen identity papers. Judging from the last raid on a job site and subsequent worker reaction, I think it may even be well over 50%.

Amnesty in principle doesn't sit well with me. It's a reward for doing something criminal. I can see the expediency of doing it, but only if it's part of an entire revamping of the immigration policy. The attitude of "okay, you're here, we give up, you can stay", repeating itself over and over through history, nah, I just can't see that or get behind it.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' date='18 May 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1274218767' post='468563']
A point was made this morning on The View. The Arizona law isn't about illegal immigration. It's about illegal [b]Mexicans[u].[/u] [/b]No illegal Canadian, or illegal Swede, or even an illegal Nigerian is going to be stopped because they might be illegally in the state of Arizona. It's about a state bordering Mexico and this law is focused on Mexican illegal immigration. So, I'm sorry, but to say it isn't racial profiling or pointed at a certain race is bullshit. It's clear cut discrimination against those who physically reflect the heritage that is the target of the law. It needs to be stricken down. So I'm backing Los Angeles and San Diego and all those other cities who are boycotting Arizona business, goods and services. I placed an order on Amazon.com today. I paid a little bit more to use the sub-vendor who wasn't located in Arizona. And I'll keep making the same decision until the law is gone. Now......

Our national immigration policy is also bullshit. It needs to be changed, it needs to be enforced, and it needs to work for the protection of the American people. And the Fed need their feet held to the fire until it happens. A friend of mine had an excellent idea. Get caught illegally is this country, go to jail for 10 years. The absolute worst scum of the earth jails we have that should have been torn down 20 years ago. And the quota for your nation gets dropped by one. (Everybody knows there are immigration quotas.) Hire an illegal, same jail. Set a "crime stoppers" type permanent reward for reporting an illegal alien and a larger one for business hiring illegal aliens. Sure it will cost us money to house them for 10 years, but not as much as the trip home over and over again, along with salaries, detention facilities, etc. that we're already paying for now. And I'm thinking illegal immigration and hiring of illegal immigrants will drop to pretty much non-existent before the first 10-year term is served.

'Rani
[/quote]

Ya, they gotta worry about all those Nordic people swimming there, and invading the state.

Or Maybe they need to worry about all those Canadian's showing up, starting millitant racist organizations called La nationalité, and touting the re-conquérir.


Man, Rani, you gotta be old, and having a flashback to when you roamed Pangea! You remember, when there were no oceans dividing Nigeria, or Scandanavia, from CONUS. (Ok, don't take that wrong, it's humor... of a sort... ) As far as Canada is concerned... they may be looking at the US border, and thinking they need a big wall to keep US citizens out. I don't see a whole pile of them hording over the border here. Haven't seen any farmers murdered by illegal Canadians, the Canadian drug gangs aren't murdering people at will... Warroad, MN isn't the kidnapping capitol of the USA. Did you splash that liberal-koolaid in your eyes, and you can't see the difference, or what?

If you want to boycott Az, don't be a hypocritical-asshole... stop drinking AZ water, and shut off your AZ supplied power... or you are just another jackass blabbering on with no backbone to live up to your own words. Lights still on? Thought so. A stand against the people of AZ is fine, until it affects your own life, then it's ignored.

Economic boycotts by governments most likely violate the commerce clause of the Constitution. The majority of the people in AZ support the law-What is with you people, majority rule is fine when they vote for gay marriage, but when a majority of the people want the borders, and laws actually enforced (gasp!) you go bat-shit-crazy. I wish I could say I am amazed.

IMNHO we need to adopt a simple immigration law...
[font="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]1. If you migrate to this county, you must speak the native language

2. You have to be a professional or an investor. No unskilled workers
allowed.

3. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no
special ballots for elections, all government business will be
conducted in the official native language.

4. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they
are here, irregardless of nationalization.

5 Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold any political office, at any level

6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no
food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs.
Attempts to access these entitlements will result in deportation.

7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount
equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

8. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT
options will be restricted. You are not allowed waterfront property.
That is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

9. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign
flag, no political organizing, no badmouthing our president or his
policies, if you do you will be sent home.

10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down
and sent straight to jail.

11. If you use any name, or signature other than your real name,
you are guilty of a felony, and will be hunted down.

12. [/size][/font][font="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]In order to belong to any branch of the Military, you must be a citizen by birth,
This same status is indispensable for captains, pilots, Craft-masters, engineers,
mechanics, and in general, for all personnel of the crew of any vessel or airship
traveling under the nation's or insignia It is also necessary to be native by birth to
discharge the position of captain of the port and all services of practical operation of a port of entry.
as well as all functions of customs agent in the Republic.

13. [/size][/font]Native born citizens shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances
for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government
[font="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]
[/size][/font][font="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Oh, wait, that is[u] MEXICAN immigration law[/u].
But they expect different treatment here? [/size][/font] [b]They can go screw themselves[/b]... more hypocrites with no balls.

[jezter6]

Maybe we enact those laws here and it won't look so appealing to come over.

I was right on with you while reading the list and was quite amazed to see that it's actual immigration law from somewhere.

[mustafabey]

Whats going is a migration of peoples. It has happened many times in history. IndoEuorpean migrations,Semitic,TurcoMongol hordes,Irish,Italian and eastern Europeans to America. Sometimes, as with Germanic tribes,Islamic Arabs,Genghis Khan, etc it becomes an invasion. Sometimes, like the late19th century and early 20th century migrations of Europeans to America, it happens peacefully over a period of time. It is motivated by overpopulation and a lack of adequate resources in the homeland. Thats whats happening regarding the Hispanic immigrations to the United States. If history has any relevance here,laws won't stop it. The only way to stop it is to change the economic climate of Latin America so people can support themselves. I suppose its racist because it targets Hispanics. No one worries about European immigrations or Canadian. America has numerous times racially excluded certain peoples. The immigration quotas of the early 20th century are a good example,focused on excluding East Asians. I am a Native American on my fathers side, so perhaps I have my own prejudices regarding these matters.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' date='22 May 2010 - 05:48 AM' timestamp='1274532520' post='468993']
Whats going is a migration of peoples. It has happened many times in history. IndoEuorpean migrations,Semitic,TurcoMongol hordes,Irish,Italian and eastern Europeans to America. Sometimes, as with Germanic tribes,Islamic Arabs,Genghis Khan, etc it becomes an invasion. Sometimes, like the late19th century and early 20th century migrations of Europeans to America, it happens peacefully over a period of time. It is motivated by overpopulation and a lack of adequate resources in the homeland. Thats whats happening regarding the Hispanic immigrations to the United States. If history has any relevance here,laws won't stop it. The only way to stop it is to change the economic climate of Latin America so people can support themselves. I suppose its racist because it targets Hispanics. No one worries about European immigrations or Canadian. America has numerous times racially excluded certain peoples. The immigration quotas of the early 20th century are a good example,focused on excluding East Asians. I am a Native American on my fathers side, so perhaps I have my own prejudices regarding these matters.
[/quote]

A valid point. Right now we think illegal immigration is a God-awful disaster, but most likely eventually all borders will merge as we become more and more a global economy/civilization. Maybe we need a new kind of international government altogether that allows for that international civilization who live in one country and work in another. It's almost like water leveling. Eventually no matter what we do or don't do, it's going to find it's own balance. The problem is that according to the most recent information, the poorest working American is still in the top 10% of income for the world. That's a really double edged sword. What does it say about us that we have so much while the rest of the world has so little, and yet hard work and education should pay off by increased quality of life. Though I think what we feel we "need" to maintain quality of life might need to be adjusted. I mean really..... Our choice of status symbols is way, way off when it's more important to us than the fact that there are still whole countries that consider a hot meal a luxury.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Rani, ya know what has happened in the past when these circumstances presented itself. Barbarians at the gates! Look what the Chinese built to keep out the Mexicans. The biggest structure ever built by man. Did it work? Fuck no. Empires in decline attract these migrations. It takes a Diocletian,a Suleyman the Magnificent, someone like that to revive the culture. Somehow I can't quite envision "Sarah the Sublime" being the Joan d'Arc.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' date='23 May 2010 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1274649356' post='469170']
Rani, ya know what has happened in the past when these circumstances presented itself. Barbarians at the gates! Look what the Chinese built to keep out the Mexicans. The biggest structure ever built by man. Did it work? Fuck no. Empires in decline attract these migrations. It takes a Diocletian,a Suleyman the Magnificent, someone like that to revive the culture. Somehow I can't quite envision "Sarah the Sublime" being the Joan d'Arc.
[/quote]

I do believe the US is in major decline, but it often requires barbarians at the gate to force change. Look at the global repositioning of nations when the USSR fell. Whether you think that was a good or bad thing, it certainly instituted change and shift in global ideology. I think our recent recession is one small pre-shock to the big eventual quake. The Roman Empire had such upsets before it fell, so did ancient Egypt, and so on. Being Native American my views are sometimes skewed because I tend to think in terms of thousands of years rather than right now. I can feel people going "Wha?" at that statement but it comes from the spiritual side of ancient traditions, coupled with a love of history and some Buddhist philosophy of progression, etc. I mean, honestly, as much as I'm shaped by my connections to reservation lands, how we got there numbered, etc., I'm also quite aware that had the immigration of Western Europeans not occurred, this would be a very different nation, or likely not one at all at it been completely left to it's own denizens. So I can't quite see even the decline of the US and it's eventual collapse as a necessarily horrendous thing in the long term effect on humanity in general.

It's just a difficult time in our history. I have enormous compassion for anyone starving in their own country and so desperate for a better life that they would sacrifice everything however little materially, but enormous in terms of language, family, community, etc., to brave crossing a border into a nation where you know you will be a criminal and hunted. (Hunted effectively or not being a more moot point, because in this case it's the fear factor that counts.) It's an incredible act of hope and courage along with a strong dose of desperation. Yet, I also believe we can't just throw up our hands and say "oh, it's okay" because really it's not. You have to specify which language you want your ballot in, and press 1 for English on every phone call, and find yourself working for a criminal business owner who also hires illegal aliens at a reduced rate because they can't complain? No, none of this is right and acceptable so yeah, I'm also tough on closing the borders and punishing those who break the law.

In the end, the only real lasting answer seems to be improving the world as a whole and I don't know if spoiled Americans are ever going to be ready to do that except in terms of throwing the occasional dollar to disaster. We threw millions of dollars at Haiti after the quake, But we spared never a dime to make their life better before it was up in our faces. We just didn't think about it. And until it's in our faces we don't generally think much about the causes and cures for illegal immigration either.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Western Cherokee Nation, Bird Clan Sulinai, Ani tsalagi, ani tsi's'qua Osiyo!