Immigration Law

[bellydancerakn]

What I'm really scared for are people who don't have ID. I have friends who are too broke to affored a driver's liscense or state ID, let alone a freaking passport. Hell I have people come through my lines all the time who forgot their ID. Just the other day I misplaced my purse after a 6 hour road trip and couldn't find it the next day when I had to go to work. So I had to drive to work without a liscense. Yes stupid I know, but I rather have a ticket and be employed than the alternative. I didn't get pulled over and found my purse when I got home (right infront of my freaking nose of course).

And what about my friend TJ? He is in fact of mexican descent and knowing him it is very possible he might misplace his wallet and have to go to work without it. God in Arizona he would get pulled over and carded in a second. Esspecially with the fact that he is tall and menacing looking with a giant scar on the side of his head, which is actually the result of having a brain tumor that resulted in seizures ever since he was born. But how are the cops to know? All they see is a tall mexican looking kid with a big ole scar.

Me, on the other hand, I'm 5'5", bright blonde hair, blue eyes, palest skin you've ever seen. And yet I'm probably worse than TJ. How do they not know that I am an illegal canadian alien? Maybe I'm an anarchist or neo-natzi. I certainly look just about right for neo-natzi, hell I even speak German. And yet, people don't see me as a threat. I'm not scary looking. People see me, and then disregard me. Perfect for a domestic terrorist.

There are also american who convert to Islam and then go on jihad. They look normal. Ex-quarterback, blonde hair, green eyes, maybe an insurance salesman. Oh yeah thats John. He coaches little league, throws a mean BBQ. Actually, he is a crazy convert terrorist who is going to blow himself up with a few homemade bombs in the middle of the town's fourth of july parade.

Also, born Islamic terrorists know that we profile against people with dark hair and skin who have beards. So they shave their face and cut their hair, maybe use a skin bleaching creme, put on khakis and a button down along with a blazer and suitcase and glasses. Then all you have is a isreali proffesor, not a crazy islamic terrorist. They can even bleach their hair and use a skin bleaching creme, then you have your average all-american joe if they can get the accent right.

Visual profiling only works so far. It doesn't account for everything. I get where Arizona is coming from, but it has more flaws and cracks than good things.

[Venger]

Nothing is going to happen to TJ I promise.The only way he would even be questioned about his citizenship is if he were to commit some crime like speeding or running a red light. If he didn't have ID he could be detained for a short time while they run his name through the system.
It is something all states should be doing to everyone that is stopped for a violation. A quick run through the system can see if you have warrants or your status whether you're here on a visa or your a citizen. The key here is to identify people who are here legally or not. believe me there are a lot of Chinese and Japanese students who's visas have expired that need to go back home or come in legally through the system.
Mexicans are the focus in Arizona because of the open boarder issue. Its not personal. At least not for me.
Ray

[jezter6]

It's that kind of overreaction to the law that is what gets us in these debates.

Not having your license is not necessarily meaning that suddenly you're in handcuffs and being bussed off to the border for instant deportation. Your name, DOB, SSN are in ALL sorts of systems. All you have to do is provide reliable information that they can look up when they run you (which they would once they got your license anyways) to make sure you have no outstanding warrants. Did you know you don't necessarily HAVE to have your license on you when you drive? You get pulled over, and they ask you for your info, they check you out and make sure you're not a psycho and let you go. You do have to (usually) go to the local police station later with your license in hand to get the ticket cancelled, but they're not instantly hauling people away because they left their license somewhere. What kind of gestapo do you think this country is???

I don't know where you guys are, but I don't know WHERE it costs to get an ID card, let alone so much that someone's too broke to get one. That's gotta be living on the streets eating garbage poor. If you're eating at McD's - you should be able to go get a state issued ID card.

Again, people can't be randomly stopped on the street because they are hispanic. Or black. Or white. They have to be already detained for another good reason before they can inquire about citizenship. And even then, they have to come up with some sort of reasonable suspicion that you're here illegally.

[Rani]

[quote name='jezter6' date='26 May 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1274905045' post='469548']
It's that kind of overreaction to the law that is what gets us in these debates.

Not having your license is not necessarily meaning that suddenly you're in handcuffs and being bussed off to the border for instant deportation. Your name, DOB, SSN are in ALL sorts of systems. All you have to do is provide reliable information that they can look up when they run you (which they would once they got your license anyways) to make sure you have no outstanding warrants. Did you know you don't necessarily HAVE to have your license on you when you drive? You get pulled over, and they ask you for your info, they check you out and make sure you're not a psycho and let you go. You do have to (usually) go to the local police station later with your license in hand to get the ticket cancelled, but they're not instantly hauling people away because they left their license somewhere. What kind of gestapo do you think this country is???

I don't know where you guys are, but I don't know WHERE it costs to get an ID card, let alone so much that someone's too broke to get one. That's gotta be living on the streets eating garbage poor. If you're eating at McD's - you should be able to go get a state issued ID card.

Again, people can't be randomly stopped on the street because they are hispanic. Or black. Or white. They have to be already detained for another good reason before they can inquire about citizenship. And even then, they have to come up with some sort of reasonable suspicion that you're here illegally.
[/quote]

You're missing the point. Giving the government more and more free rein means that they will eventually use it. Do you think anyone in any socialist overtaken country got up one morning and found every freedom they'd ever had vanished overnight without their knowledge? No, it got chipped away at little by little, with more and more permission given to depress the rights of the citizens and then they activated those permissions and the take over was entirely legal. The old saying "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" has been around about a hundred years because it's [u]true.[/u]

They only way to ensure that no government exercises abuse of power is to never give them that power in the first place.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zone%E2%80%9D-towers-locked-and-loaded-robo-snipers-%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zones%E2%80%9D-to-protect-israeli-borders/

Get rid of the operator, make it a fully automated system.
set it back 5 miles of the border, and behind a physical barrier

Southern border solved.
vultures fed.

Next problem.

[Venger]

[quote name='Rani' date='26 May 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1274908822' post='469550']
[quote name='jezter6' date='26 May 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1274905045' post='469548']
It's that kind of overreaction to the law that is what gets us in these debates.

Not having your license is not necessarily meaning that suddenly you're in handcuffs and being bussed off to the border for instant deportation. Your name, DOB, SSN are in ALL sorts of systems. All you have to do is provide reliable information that they can look up when they run you (which they would once they got your license anyways) to make sure you have no outstanding warrants. Did you know you don't necessarily HAVE to have your license on you when you drive? You get pulled over, and they ask you for your info, they check you out and make sure you're not a psycho and let you go. You do have to (usually) go to the local police station later with your license in hand to get the ticket cancelled, but they're not instantly hauling people away because they left their license somewhere. What kind of gestapo do you think this country is???

I don't know where you guys are, but I don't know WHERE it costs to get an ID card, let alone so much that someone's too broke to get one. That's gotta be living on the streets eating garbage poor. If you're eating at McD's - you should be able to go get a state issued ID card.

Again, people can't be randomly stopped on the street because they are hispanic. Or black. Or white. They have to be already detained for another good reason before they can inquire about citizenship. And even then, they have to come up with some sort of reasonable suspicion that you're here illegally.
[/quote]

You're missing the point. Giving the government more and more free rein means that they will eventually use it. Do you think anyone in any socialist overtaken country got up one morning and found every freedom they'd ever had vanished overnight without their knowledge? No, it got chipped away at little by little, with more and more permission given to depress the rights of the citizens and then they activated those permissions and the take over was entirely legal. The old saying "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" has been around about a hundred years because it's [u]true.[/u]

They only way to ensure that no government exercises abuse of power is to never give them that power in the first place.

'Rani
[/quote]

actually this is a states rights issue.local Government taking steps to secure their way of life. The federal government telling Arizona they don't have the right to rid their state of ILLEGAL aliens is the Big Government problem.The only people losing any rights here are the one who shouldn't be here in the first place.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='26 May 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1274918960' post='469557']
[quote name='Rani' date='26 May 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1274908822' post='469550']
[quote name='jezter6' date='26 May 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1274905045' post='469548']
It's that kind of overreaction to the law that is what gets us in these debates.

Not having your license is not necessarily meaning that suddenly you're in handcuffs and being bussed off to the border for instant deportation. Your name, DOB, SSN are in ALL sorts of systems. All you have to do is provide reliable information that they can look up when they run you (which they would once they got your license anyways) to make sure you have no outstanding warrants. Did you know you don't necessarily HAVE to have your license on you when you drive? You get pulled over, and they ask you for your info, they check you out and make sure you're not a psycho and let you go. You do have to (usually) go to the local police station later with your license in hand to get the ticket cancelled, but they're not instantly hauling people away because they left their license somewhere. What kind of gestapo do you think this country is???

I don't know where you guys are, but I don't know WHERE it costs to get an ID card, let alone so much that someone's too broke to get one. That's gotta be living on the streets eating garbage poor. If you're eating at McD's - you should be able to go get a state issued ID card.

Again, people can't be randomly stopped on the street because they are hispanic. Or black. Or white. They have to be already detained for another good reason before they can inquire about citizenship. And even then, they have to come up with some sort of reasonable suspicion that you're here illegally.
[/quote]

You're missing the point. Giving the government more and more free rein means that they will eventually use it. Do you think anyone in any socialist overtaken country got up one morning and found every freedom they'd ever had vanished overnight without their knowledge? No, it got chipped away at little by little, with more and more permission given to depress the rights of the citizens and then they activated those permissions and the take over was entirely legal. The old saying "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" has been around about a hundred years because it's [u]true.[/u]

They only way to ensure that no government exercises abuse of power is to never give them that power in the first place.

'Rani
[/quote]

actually this is a states rights issue.local Government taking steps to secure their way of life. The federal government telling Arizona they don't have the right to rid their state of ILLEGAL aliens is the Big Government problem.The only people losing any rights here are the one who shouldn't be here in the first place.
Ray
[/quote]

Not true in my opinion. Who decides there's suspicion? The officer. How many times have you run into an asshole cop? Never? Never, ever?

So you, a native citizen, get stopped, and you hand over your drivers license to prove your identity and legal status. Every illegal I ever came across had one just like yours, so the officer has to prove your's is legit. Where do you think you are while all that is taking place? Along your merry way? Hardly. The State of Arizona has taken it upon themselves to force someone to prove they are not guilty of being in the country illegally, and they can hang onto you until you do. Kinda invalidates that "innocent until guilty" thing we put so much store in.

Does anybody really think that any person should have to prove their identity just because of "suspicion"? Wasn't that how people ended up with yellow stars on their clothing?

We absolutely need to do something about our illegal immigration problem, but this law is just plain bad. For everyone.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='26 May 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1274909532' post='469552']
[url="http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zone%E2%80%9D-towers-locked-and-loaded-robo-snipers-%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zones%E2%80%9D-to-protect-israeli-borders/"]http://whitelocust.w...sraeli-borders/[/url]

Get rid of the operator, make it a fully automated system.
set it back 5 miles of the border, and behind a physical barrier

Southern border solved.
vultures fed.

Next problem.
[/quote]

Yes, well, I'm not certain we're at the 'they're out to destroy us" state Israel is in, but were I Queen of the Country, It'd probably want to install the turrets with tranquilizer darts, and then let the border patrol roam back and forth picking up the snoring and return them to their side of the border.

I'm all in favor of getting tougher on immigration, but I'm not in favor of a law that gives police more power to use against anyone and everyone they choose. It's the first step in a downhill slide to national and potentially racial identity cards.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[font="verdana"][size="2"]"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" [/size][/font]

[Fuzzy]

But if you refuse to give officers more power to deal with the situation how will anything get done? Right now we already have laws preventing the illegal immigration in both nation and state governments, but there is little enforcement of these policies and laws. Without giving the officers more power to enforce laws the laws will go unheeded like before.

[thatonethere]

You do have a point mustafabey. It is printed on the Statue of Liberty. I guess the US Government set themselves up for it. Boy were they niave. (No sarcasm intended here)

Oh well. I'm just going to wait it out. After all, these things come in waves. First it was the Chinese (they built the rail roads) Irish, Scottish, Italian, Polish, etc. Then it was the Jewish and Japanese, and guess what...now it's Latin Americans.


Someone please correct me on this. I'm a bit rusty on the history, but weren't the Chinese brought over?

Anyway,,,
This seems to be the overall pattern the US always seems to face:
"(Insert any group of people NOT here first) are the reason why there aren't any more jobs available, and they're the reason why the economy is so bad because they work for cheap."

I've come to the conclusion that it's just another one of those cycles. It seems like the real problem is the US took on the job of playing superman, and they really didn't think about the consequences. America put out so much propaganda in order to gain such a desired reputation that it worked, and now everybody's mad.

Sorry for the rambling but I have a tendency to write out my thought process so I may not make any sense, or sound like I'm contradicting myself sometimes.

Forgive me. Edited May 27, 2010 by thatonethere

[Rani]

[quote name='thatonethere' date='26 May 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1274927829' post='469582']
You do have a point mustafabey. It is printed on the Statue of Liberty. I guess the US Government set themselves up for it. Boy were they niave. (No sarcasm intended here)

Oh well. I'm just going to wait it out. After all, these things come in waves. First it was the Chinese (they built the rail roads) Irish, Scottish, Italian, Polish, etc. Then it was the Jewish and Japanese, and guess what...now it's Latin Americans.


Someone please correct me on this. I'm a bit rusty on the history, but weren't the Chinese brought over?

Anyway,,,
This seems to be the overall pattern the US always seems to face:
"(Insert any group of people NOT here first) are the reason why there aren't any more jobs available, and they're the reason why the economy is so bad because they work for cheap."

I've come to the conclusion that it's just another one of those cycles. It seems like the real problem is the US took on the job of playing superman, and they really didn't think about the consequences. America put out so much propaganda in order to gain such a desired reputation that it worked, and now everybody's mad.

Sorry for the rambling but I have a tendency to write out my thought process so I may not make any sense, or sound like I'm contradicting myself sometimes.

Forgive me.
[/quote]

Nah, you made perfect sense, and you're also right in that we set ourselves up for it. Partly because American is the land of immigrants, kinda hard to justify locking the door after the horse is, in the case of this continent, stolen. What else was Jamestown but illegal immigration? But some way, some how, we have to find a way to balance historically open doors with better security and control over our borders, because quite frankly if someone who's escaping poverty and coming across only in the interest of a truly better life can so easily walk through the border, then how many can come through who desire not a better life but a destruction of ours?

'Ranii

[thatonethere]

Let me fix part of that:


This seems to be the overall pattern the US always seems to face:
"(Insert any group of people NOT here first, [b](meaning after it was "civilized"[/b] ) are the reason why there aren't any more jobs available, and they're the reason why the economy is so bad because they work for cheap."

[thatonethere]

(damn editing time frames....)

Here's the rest of what I said:

" But some way, some how, we have to find a way to balance historically open doors with better security and control over our borders,[b] because quite frankly if someone who's escaping poverty and coming across only in the interest of a truly better life can so easily walk through the border, then how many can come through who desire not a better life but a destruction of ours?"[/b]

This is a good question, and there is no real way to filter out the ones who really want a better life. Who doesn't want a better life? I guess it's all in the attitude of the person. A person can say they want a better life, and at the same time, they can achieve that by breaking the law.

Does Bernie Madoff ring the bell (even though he's a US citizen)? He wanted a better life and got it until he got caught. An "illegal" or legal immigrant can just as easily do the same.

[mustafabey]

Rani said " What else was Jamestown but illegal immigration?"

True indeed, makes me wonder as most Mexicans are really just Spanish speaking Indians,if this is just p

[mustafabey]

WELL! What happened, I posted by accident an unfinished post. I continue:

Most Mexicans are really just Spanish speaking Indians. So do we see blatant racism here? Should the words on the statue of liberty read
"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, as long as they are white,"

British immigration to this country was another migration, very similar to the current Hispanic migration. People were escaping poverty, oppression, etc. So why deny this to others? Why are we so afraid of Mexicans? I worked for years up in New York City running bars and clubs. We employed lots of illegal Mexicans. The food service business would collapse if you got rid of Mexicans. The ones I worked with were honest and hard working. If they were not able to come in, they would send someone in their place, hoping there might someday be a job for him. What difference is that from poor Brits,Scots-Irish signing contracts of indentured servitude to pay the passage fare, work 7 years, basically as a slave, then out to the ever moving frontier to farm and raise a family. And I am not even addressing the Africans brought over against their will and still have yet be properly welcomed as equal citizens( I believe that a certain percentage of Americans who detest Obama, are racially motivated, not all for sure but theres a few out there.)
If America wants to close its borders, and given the threat of terrorism, would certainly be justifiable, then it should close its borders. Seal them tight. As long as any border is porous, the "barbarians'(no disrespect to Mexicans intended) will filter thru.
Mexicans are not stealing jobs here, they are working jobs nobody wants and sometimes less than minimum wage. It becomes a double standard,corporations and individuals hire them for cost effective reasons, and given the power of corporations and certain individuals(how many politicians had Mexican domestics) the federal government does not enforce the law. Let them in, welcome them and let them become part of the American mosaic, their energies might revitalize this nation. If not build a wall,arm alot of paramilitary types and let no one in. Isolationism is a very American response.
Nuff said.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' date='26 May 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1274921620' post='469561']
[quote name='TheScotsman' date='26 May 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1274909532' post='469552']
[url="http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zone%E2%80%9D-towers-locked-and-loaded-robo-snipers-%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zones%E2%80%9D-to-protect-israeli-borders/"]http://whitelocust.w...sraeli-borders/[/url]

Get rid of the operator, make it a fully automated system.
set it back 5 miles of the border, and behind a physical barrier

Southern border solved.
vultures fed.

Next problem.
[/quote]

Yes, well, I'm not certain we're at the 'they're out to destroy us" state Israel is in, but were I Queen of the Country, It'd probably want to install the turrets with tranquilizer darts, and then let the border patrol roam back and forth picking up the snoring and return them to their side of the border.

I'm all in favor of getting tougher on immigration, but I'm not in favor of a law that gives police more power to use against anyone and everyone they choose. It's the first step in a downhill slide to national and potentially racial identity cards.

'Rani
[/quote]

Have a hard time convincing the 12 people a day murdered by illegal mexicans, another 10 by other acts of negligent homicide. Here are a few, try convincing any one of these families that the battle against illegal aliens is not a war. Let me know how that goes. [url="http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html"]http://www.immigrati...imevictims.html[/url]

4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens.
3,622 Americans killed through negligent homicide by illegals annually.
68,00 since Sept. 11, 2001.

83% of AZ murder warrants are for illegal mexicans (where illegals are 15ish% of the pop/)
Somewhere I read 92% of LA murder warrants were on illegals, but I an not sure of the source)


Sounds pretty damn much like a war to me.

These guys are a threat.
[url="http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978260907"]http://news.gather.c...281474978260907[/url]
and in the end, it will only take a handful to repeat a WTC type incident.

Tell me again, why is Israel different? I am thinking all may not all be "out to get us" but who cares what drives them. Dead is dead, the undeniable fact is that if they are not here, they can't kill American citizens. In the end, I would rather see a wall, and lethal automatic devices than a national/racial ID card, data base, or any other liberty lost as a result of the actions of people who don't obey our laws.

Over the years I think I have seen about any power the police get abused, misused, or stretched beyond it's intended use. In the end, it sounds a bit like we are not that far apart in our views.

[jezter6]

[quote name='Rani' date='26 May 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1274908822' post='469550']

You're missing the point. Giving the government more and more free rein means that they will eventually use it. Do you think anyone in any socialist overtaken country got up one morning and found every freedom they'd ever had vanished overnight without their knowledge? No, it got chipped away at little by little, with more and more permission given to depress the rights of the citizens and then they activated those permissions and the take over was entirely legal. The old saying "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" has been around about a hundred years because it's [u]true.[/u]

They only way to ensure that no government exercises abuse of power is to never give them that power in the first place.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm not missing any point. I love how people are all against government power when it's enforcing LAW, but as soon as it's gov't power to tax the crap out of us and buy failing car companies and hand out free money to wall street, suddenly that government power is ok.

And before you californians get all uppity about this law -- California already has one, it's just kept a little quieter.

California Penal Code Section 834b




(a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
federal immigration laws.
( With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
of being present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
following:
(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
who is present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
leave the United States.
(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
status and provide any additional information that may be requested
by any other public entity.
(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
prohibited.

[quote name='mustafabey' date='26 May 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1274926321' post='469576']
[font="verdana"][size="2"]"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" [/size][/font]
[/quote]

Yes, give us your tired and poor...so long as they stop at the gate along the way and file their paperwork the same way MILLIONS of other legal immigrants have done in the past. Immigration into the United States is NOT HARD at all. There are immigrants everywhere you look.

I will take all the LEGAL immigrants that want to come here. Provided they do so legally.

[mustafabey]

I don't know how easy immigration is to this country. My people got here 20,000 years ago, so no hassles on the Bering Bridge. BUT, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that this country still abides by some kind of quota system. I don't believe an immigrant from say, Syria or some African nations would have an easy go of it. Back in the early 20th century quotas were very much racial and focused on Asians at that time.

[Venger]

[quote name='jezter6' date='27 May 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1274987611' post='469660']
[quote name='Rani' date='26 May 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1274908822' post='469550']
You're missing the point. Giving the government more and more free rein means that they will eventually use it. Do you think anyone in any socialist overtaken country got up one morning and found every freedom they'd ever had vanished overnight without their knowledge? No, it got chipped away at little by little, with more and more permission given to depress the rights of the citizens and then they activated those permissions and the take over was entirely legal. The old saying "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" has been around about a hundred years because it's [u]true.[/u]

They only way to ensure that no government exercises abuse of power is to never give them that power in the first place.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm not missing any point. I love how people are all against government power when it's enforcing LAW, but as soon as it's gov't power to tax the crap out of us and buy failing car companies and hand out free money to wall street, suddenly that government power is ok.

And before you californians get all uppity about this law -- California already has one, it's just kept a little quieter.

California Penal Code Section 834b




(a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
federal immigration laws.
( With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
of being present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
following:
(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
who is present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
leave the United States.
(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
status and provide any additional information that may be requested
by any other public entity.
© Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
prohibited.

[quote name='mustafabey' date='26 May 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1274926321' post='469576']
[font="verdana"][size="2"]"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" [/size][/font]
[/quote]

Yes, give us your tired and poor...so long as they stop at the gate along the way and file their paperwork the same way MILLIONS of other legal immigrants have done in the past. Immigration into the United States is NOT HARD at all. There are immigrants everywhere you look.

I will take all the LEGAL immigrants that want to come here. Provided they do so legally.
[/quote]

Good find on the California Law.
Ray

[Rani]

1) It's not the same law; the California law specifies [u][b]arrested[/b][/u]. Hell, yeah if you're arrested, but the Arizona law gives them the right to stop anyone "they" suspect of being illegal. Different ballgame.
2) Uppity? Pot, kettle - considering your response.
3) I get that we have illegal aliens committing crimes. The problem is because they're illegal all we do is ship them back across the border. If you're a criminal sure you're going to commit your crimes where there's no penalty except a bus ride back across the border. Their illegal activities need to be handled entirely different from their legal status. I'm personally in favor of locking them up and throwing away the key. That at least would be government money well spent in my opinion. And at least discourage the next guy who think he's only going to get a bus ride.
4) I'm not remotely against revision to our current immigration laws which are way too lenient in my view. What's more I'm not terribly happy with a Federal Government who doesn't do a damn thing to enforce the law we do have.
5) I'm Native American. Far as I'm concerned you can ship every Hispanic, African, Asian, Russian, etc., immigrant back home. Long as they take the rest of you white people with them. (Sarcasm for those who don't easily recognize it across a computer screen.)

Seriously though, so many people are acting like the formerly addicted. Holier than thou and and everybody else is evil unlike "you" who've seen the light. The vast majority of the people inhabiting America are from immigrant heritage. Your own ancestors battled this very same "less than human" attitude. But no, now that everyone is here, they're all "it's my home". Well, I suppose maybe so, since it was stolen fair and square, right?

'Rani

[jezter6]

[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
1) It's not the same law; the California law specifies [u][b]arrested[/b][/u]. Hell, yeah if you're arrested, but the Arizona law gives them the right to stop anyone "they" suspect of being illegal. Different ballgame.[/QUote]
That is PATENTLY false. Either you have yet to READ the bill, or are spouting MSNBC propaganda. And THIS is why we keep debating it. People either do not read the bill, or just sit and listen to one of the biased media outlets (FoxNews included).

[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
2) Uppity? Pot, kettle - considering your response.
3) I get that we have illegal aliens committing crimes. The problem is because they're illegal all we do is ship them back across the border. If you're a criminal sure you're going to commit your crimes where there's no penalty except a bus ride back across the border. Their illegal activities need to be handled entirely different from their legal status. I'm personally in favor of locking them up and throwing away the key. That at least would be government money well spent in my opinion. And at least discourage the next guy who think he's only going to get a bus ride.
[/quote]
Illegals convicted of crimes in the US are in our jail system already. They are not just shipped back across the border....
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
4) I'm not remotely against revision to our current immigration laws which are way too lenient in my view. What's more I'm not terribly happy with a Federal Government who doesn't do a damn thing to enforce the law we do have.
5) I'm Native American. Far as I'm concerned you can ship every Hispanic, African, Asian, Russian, etc., immigrant back home. Long as they take the rest of you white people with them. (Sarcasm for those who don't easily recognize it across a computer screen.)
[/quote]
If the feds are not going to do anything about it, then who should? Should we just wait for our almighty federal government to come to the rescue? Even if this law gets killed by SCOTUS, if anything it MIGHT get the feds to actually do something. This bill is positive in many many ways....
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']

Seriously though, so many people are acting like the formerly addicted. Holier than thou and and everybody else is evil unlike "you" who've seen the light. The vast majority of the people inhabiting America are from immigrant heritage. Your own ancestors battled this very same "less than human" attitude. But no, now that everyone is here, they're all "it's my home". Well, I suppose maybe so, since it was stolen fair and square, right?

'Rani
[/quote]

Yes, my ancestors came here on a boat, and less than 100 years ago. However, they did it the right way. They didn't sneak into the country and suck the country dry. They didn't roam the streets (or deserts) in packs, killing people who got in their way. They came peacefully, they signed the papers, and BECAME AMERICANS. Illegal immigrants do what they want, against the law, do not care ONE bit about the damage they are doing and have little want to be Americans (and I'm not talking citizenship, I'm talking something bigger and broader than just a card that says you're an American).

You know what, it IS my home. Because this country WELCOMED my family here and we built a solid foundation on being Americans. And everyone else isn't EVIL. Quit putting words in my mouth. ILLEGAL aliens maybe, probably because (based on the whole word illegal) they are CRIMINALS. I have NO problem with legal immigrants. Hispanics, white, or otherwise. I welcome immigrants, because we're a land of opportunity and the greatest nation on earth. You just gotta play by the rules, the same way everyone else plays by the rules. There's no room to be sorry for these people. They've taken the shortcut. They are obviously committing an illegal act. Yet people are so SAD that we treat these criminals soooooooo terribly here. The way you people make it sound it's like we're waterboarding them and forcing them to do naked pyramids in these giant concentration camps or something.

Next time someone robs your home, make sure you welcome them back with open arms, because obviously their criminal behavior isn't their fault and they just need a hug or something. Maybe you let them stay a few weeks to get back on their feet and hand out some free cash while you're at it.

Sound stupid? Sure does.

[Rani]

[quote name='jezter6' date='27 May 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1274996922' post='469678']
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
1) It's not the same law; the California law specifies [u][b]arrested[/b][/u]. Hell, yeah if you're arrested, but the Arizona law gives them the right to stop anyone "they" suspect of being illegal. Different ballgame.[/QUote]
That is PATENTLY false. Either you have yet to READ the bill, or are spouting MSNBC propaganda. And THIS is why we keep debating it. People either do not read the bill, or just sit and listen to one of the biased media outlets (FoxNews included).

[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
2) Uppity? Pot, kettle - considering your response.
3) I get that we have illegal aliens committing crimes. The problem is because they're illegal all we do is ship them back across the border. If you're a criminal sure you're going to commit your crimes where there's no penalty except a bus ride back across the border. Their illegal activities need to be handled entirely different from their legal status. I'm personally in favor of locking them up and throwing away the key. That at least would be government money well spent in my opinion. And at least discourage the next guy who think he's only going to get a bus ride.
[/quote]
Illegals convicted of crimes in the US are in our jail system already. They are not just shipped back across the border....
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
4) I'm not remotely against revision to our current immigration laws which are way too lenient in my view. What's more I'm not terribly happy with a Federal Government who doesn't do a damn thing to enforce the law we do have.
5) I'm Native American. Far as I'm concerned you can ship every Hispanic, African, Asian, Russian, etc., immigrant back home. Long as they take the rest of you white people with them. (Sarcasm for those who don't easily recognize it across a computer screen.)
[/quote]
If the feds are not going to do anything about it, then who should? Should we just wait for our almighty federal government to come to the rescue? Even if this law gets killed by SCOTUS, if anything it MIGHT get the feds to actually do something. This bill is positive in many many ways....
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
Seriously though, so many people are acting like the formerly addicted. Holier than thou and and everybody else is evil unlike "you" who've seen the light. The vast majority of the people inhabiting America are from immigrant heritage. Your own ancestors battled this very same "less than human" attitude. But no, now that everyone is here, they're all "it's my home". Well, I suppose maybe so, since it was stolen fair and square, right?

'Rani
[/quote]

Yes, my ancestors came here on a boat, and less than 100 years ago. However, they did it the right way. They didn't sneak into the country and suck the country dry. They didn't roam the streets (or deserts) in packs, killing people who got in their way. They came peacefully, they signed the papers, and BECAME AMERICANS. Illegal immigrants do what they want, against the law, do not care ONE bit about the damage they are doing and have little want to be Americans (and I'm not talking citizenship, I'm talking something bigger and broader than just a card that says you're an American).

You know what, it IS my home. Because this country WELCOMED my family here and we built a solid foundation on being Americans. And everyone else isn't EVIL. Quit putting words in my mouth. ILLEGAL aliens maybe, probably because (based on the whole word illegal) they are CRIMINALS. I have NO problem with legal immigrants. Hispanics, white, or otherwise. I welcome immigrants, because we're a land of opportunity and the greatest nation on earth. You just gotta play by the rules, the same way everyone else plays by the rules. There's no room to be sorry for these people. They've taken the shortcut. They are obviously committing an illegal act. Yet people are so SAD that we treat these criminals soooooooo terribly here. The way you people make it sound it's like we're waterboarding them and forcing them to do naked pyramids in these giant concentration camps or something.

Next time someone robs your home, make sure you welcome them back with open arms, because obviously their criminal behavior isn't their fault and they just need a hug or something. Maybe you let them stay a few weeks to get back on their feet and hand out some free cash while you're at it.

Sound stupid? Sure does.
[/quote]


I would consider stupid putting words in my mouth I didn't say.

Where did I say I was sad at strengthening the borders so they cannot come across, treating them unfairly, etc? I have steadfastly stated our immigration law is screwed up, I'm not in favor of amnesty in reward for criminal behavior, nor did I suggest remotely they should not be punished for entering the country illegally. Quit assuming that because I believe the issue is one that needs not only humanitarian treatment all around while protecting our borders and the rights every American citizen should already have that I'm on the side of criminal behavior.

'Rani

[Venger]

Rani you have been very clear that you are for stronger boarder. Something still needs to be done about the illegals that are in our states.
But one fact I need to correct you on. The Arizona police can not pull you over or detain you just because you look suspicious. you have to have done something wrong first. Speeding,bar fight,gun sighting,running a red light,and the list goes on. I personally feel a quick background check should be done on everyone they stop but that would consume a lot of resources. A car load of kids get caught speeding and they are all latino but the speak english clearly cop is not suspicious. A van load of 15 people get pulled over and one guy speaks english and the rest speak spanish and just spanish. The officer is suspicous and detains them at the scene to run a check.if it flags that they are illegal they are arrested and detained for ins.
Ray

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1274993861' post='469672']
1) It's not the same law; the California law specifies [u][b]arrested[/b][/u]. Hell, yeah if you're arrested, but the [color="#ff0000"][u][b]Arizona law gives them the right to stop anyone "they" suspect of being illegal. [/b][/u][/color]Different ballgame.
2) Uppity? Pot, kettle - considering your response.
3) I get that we have illegal aliens committing crimes. The problem is because they're illegal all we do is ship them back across the border. If you're a criminal sure you're going to commit your crimes where there's no penalty except a bus ride back across the border. Their illegal activities need to be handled entirely different from their legal status. I'm personally in favor of locking them up and throwing away the key. That at least would be government money well spent in my opinion. And at least discourage the next guy who think he's only going to get a bus ride.
4) I'm not remotely against revision to our current immigration laws which are way too lenient in my view. What's more I'm not terribly happy with a Federal Government who doesn't do a damn thing to enforce the law we do have.
5) I'm Native American. Far as I'm concerned you can ship every Hispanic, African, Asian, Russian, etc., immigrant back home. Long as they take the rest of you white people with them. (Sarcasm for those who don't easily recognize it across a computer screen.)

Seriously though, so many people are acting like the formerly addicted. Holier than thou and and everybody else is evil unlike "you" who've seen the light. The vast majority of the people inhabiting America are from immigrant heritage. Your own ancestors battled this very same "less than human" attitude. But no, now that everyone is here, they're all "it's my home". Well, I suppose maybe so, since it was stolen fair and square, right?

'Rani
[/quote]


That is spin-BS.
Quote me the part where anything says they can initiate a stop for suspicion of being an illegal alien alone. [url="http://www.keytlaw.com/blog/2010/04/anti-illegal-immigration-law-part-1/"]http://www.keytlaw.c...ion-law-part-1/[/url] There is no such part, that is just lib-spin from the retards at NPR, pms-nbc and CNN. In a border area, or an area frequented by illegals a border patrol agent CAN stop anyone suspect of being illegal for only reasonable suspicion that they are illegal. But that is federal law, applies only to border patrol, and has been upheld. It does not apply to other agencies. Arizona is simply sick of the feds ignoring their own laws, or doing a selective/token enforcement (like sending a few troops that will do nothing at all.) Who can blame them. The federal gov't is as useless as they could be, the nation is figuring that out. I think we are going to see more such laws over the next few years. It's true democracy in action! as many as 80% of AZ residents support the law. It's their state, that's their right.


Quoting the fact Europeans were once immigrants is as lame as it can be. Hell, once upon a time there were no people on the earth at all, only slime and lizzards, so lets all leave?!?!?! Ndns came from Asia, they aren't native to the USA. Some tribes have longer roots in NA, maybe all the other NDNs should leave, after all they are immigrants, just like the Europeans! There is a legal means of entry, follow it, or go to jail. What is so damn hard to understand>


[quote name='mustafabey' date='26 May 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1274926321' post='469576']
[font="verdana"][size="2"]"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" [/size][/font]
[/quote]

Get the whole quote, or it means nothing, and is simply an attempt to twist a historical poem into a different meaning, to fit an agenda. Oh, by the way, [b][font="Arial"][size="2"]"Liberty Enlightening the World"[/size][/font][/b] was her original name... not the "Statue of Liberty, and she didn't bear that stupid poem when it was built. The statue was supposed to symbolize how the light of a nation of Liberty would change the poor, destitute, homeless masses into a nation of free people. That dumb poem was added after a crazy fan of Lazarus (Can't remember the name) started a campaign to have it stuck on there. When it was built, the statue had jack to do with immigration, immigrants, or any of the like. The poem was originally pointing to the difference between the Greek "Colossus of Rhodes", a giant idol to a pagan god, and fact the Statue of Liberty (which was based on a female version of what 19th century engineers thought the original Colossus looked like) was a symbol of Liberty enlightening the world. At the time they viewed the Colossus of Rhodes as a symbol of conquering people/nations. (that is the limbs astride thing) The statue of Liberty was, in no way, a icon of any open-door for an illegal invasion of the USA. More insight can be gained by the date the Lazarus poem was added, 1903. T. Rosevelt, the beginning of the progressive movement, and the fact there was a big backlash against the floods of immigrants (entering legally... not like we are dealing with now.) from Europe. The end of the poem (which you quoted) is so often missused by the illegal alien crowd, as some validation of some mythical right to hoard over the border. Further, was written in a form called Sicilian octave. I don't remember all the symbolism in the fact it used that old format, but I do remember that there was something in the fact Sicilian octave dealt with grandiose thoughts of G*d, love, mankind as a whole, and not the effects of/on any individual.


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[b]It was never meant as "send my your trash", drug addicts, criminals, murders, social-leeches, or other problem cases.[/b]