Immigration Law

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='27 May 2010 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1275008646' post='469705']
Rani you have been very clear that you are for stronger boarder. Something still needs to be done about the illegals that are in our states.
But one fact I need to correct you on. The Arizona police can not pull you over or detain you just because you look suspicious. you have to have done something wrong first. Speeding,bar fight,gun sighting,running a red light,and the list goes on. I personally feel a quick background check should be done on everyone they stop but that would consume a lot of resources. A car load of kids get caught speeding and they are all latino but the speak english clearly cop is not suspicious. A van load of 15 people get pulled over and one guy speaks english and the rest speak spanish and just spanish. The officer is suspicous and detains them at the scene to run a check.if it flags that they are illegal they are arrested and detained for ins.
Ray
[/quote]

I hear you Ray, but you're talking rational actions, by rational police officers. I know one hell of a lot of police officers that don't remotely approach reasonable. Most of my friends, predominately retired police officers will openly tell you they're racist and they will stop people based on their race under whatever suspicion. Prove you weren't doing 2 miles over the speed limit, go ahead. If they want to stop you they will whether you actually do anything wrong or not, and the State of Arizona has now given them carte blanch. What the law is written to allow and what the on site enforcement will actually do with that law in effect is entirely and completely different if the officer's interpretation thinks it's different.

What's more, the food on every table at dinner tonight would have cost substantially more without the exploitation of illegal immigrants. Most houses are built with scab labor of which a great percentage is illegal. I'm not saying it's right, but I definitely am tired of people yelling "they're taking our jobs" when they don't want to pay fair market for table grapes, etc., and do the dirty work these jobs require. Anyone who doesn't admit that a substantial portion of our "below poverty working class" economy is currently driven by illegal workers doesn't know what they're talking about. They're at least as much victims of US exploitation as we are of their incursion.

There's also the fact that a number of illegal immigrants are not looking for a temporary job or even a better life. They're fleeing for their lives from South American civil unrest that continues to this day though it's not nearly the cause celeb the Middle East war is. Imagine living in cartel Mexico yourself. The waiting list to get legal entry is years. With gunfire all around you and your children at risk. Are you going to wait years for the right paperwork? Or are you going to try and get yourself and your family to relative safety even if it makes you a criminal in the process?

Again, I'm not remotely saying it's right to have open unguarded borders anyone can go through, but damn it we need to find humane answers without turning every state into it's own police state. And contrary to popular belief (and what's been stated here) we don't send the criminal class illegals to prison unless it's a Class 1 felony. Anything less we just send them home, and that in itself needs to stop.

My entire point has been that it's a complex issue that isn't going to be easily solved with a "let's just get them all the hell out of here" attitude.

'Rani

[jezter6]

[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1275002721' post='469694']

[/quote]

I would consider stupid putting words in my mouth I didn't say.

Where did I say I was sad at strengthening the borders so they cannot come across, treating them unfairly, etc? I have steadfastly stated our immigration law is screwed up, I'm not in favor of amnesty in reward for criminal behavior, nor did I suggest remotely they should not be punished for entering the country illegally. Quit assuming that because I believe the issue is one that needs not only humanitarian treatment all around while protecting our borders and the rights every American citizen should already have that I'm on the side of criminal behavior.

'Rani
[/quote]

Was making a generalization of anti-AZ law viewpoint. I apologize if that came across like I was explicitly calling you out for that.



[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275017157' post='469735']


I hear you Ray, but you're talking rational actions, by rational police officers. I know one hell of a lot of police officers that don't remotely approach reasonable. Most of my friends, predominately retired police officers will openly tell you they're racist and they will stop people based on their race under whatever suspicion. Prove you weren't doing 2 miles over the speed limit, go ahead. If they want to stop you they will whether you actually do anything wrong or not, and the State of Arizona has now given them carte blanch. What the law is written to allow and what the on site enforcement will actually do with that law in effect is entirely and completely different if the officer's interpretation thinks it's different.
[/quote]
If you have a problem with corrupt police officers, then fix the problem. Don't handcuff ALL cops and prevent them from doing a GOOD thing by trying to catch more criminals because you know there are some bad cops out there that "might" be a problem here. Your argument shouldn't be against this law, but towards better police officers. That's a problem across the country and has nothing to do with this specific law.



[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275017157' post='469735']


What's more, the food on every table at dinner tonight would have cost substantially more without the exploitation of illegal immigrants. Most houses are built with scab labor of which a great percentage is illegal. I'm not saying it's right, but I definitely am tired of people yelling "they're taking our jobs" when they don't want to pay fair market for table grapes, etc., and do the dirty work these jobs require. Anyone who doesn't admit that a substantial portion of our "below poverty working class" economy is currently driven by illegal workers doesn't know what they're talking about. They're at least as much victims of US exploitation as we are of their incursion.
[/quote]

That's always the argument. "But it's cheap labor that Americans wont do." Sure, our fruits and veg might be a little cheaper, but when is that cost offset by all the things illegals TAKE from the economy - like welfare programs, bailing out on hospital bills without payment, the cost of housing hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrant criminals in our jails. Guess what, our food's cheaper, but our insurance and taxes are more expensive. We STILL end up paying the same amount (if not more) for our total cost of living. Just because it seems pretty on the food cost side, everyone suddenly turns a big blind eye to the COSTS of illegal immigration.

[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275017157' post='469735']


There's also the fact that a number of illegal immigrants are not looking for a temporary job or even a better life. They're fleeing for their lives from South American civil unrest that continues to this day though it's not nearly the cause celeb the Middle East war is. Imagine living in cartel Mexico yourself. The waiting list to get legal entry is years. With gunfire all around you and your children at risk. Are you going to wait years for the right paperwork? Or are you going to try and get yourself and your family to relative safety even if it makes you a criminal in the process?

Again, I'm not remotely saying it's right to have open unguarded borders anyone can go through, but damn it we need to find humane answers without turning every state into it's own police state. And contrary to popular belief (and what's been stated here) we don't send the criminal class illegals to prison unless it's a Class 1 felony. Anything less we just send them home, and that in itself needs to stop.

My entire point has been that it's a complex issue that isn't going to be easily solved with a "let's just get them all the hell out of here" attitude.

'Rani
[/quote]

Arizona is no more of a police state than ANY other state in the union. You're making mountains out of molehills.

I don't disagree that we need to find a better way, but until that better way shows up - people should still be doing something about it. Just ignoring the problem while we wait for the feds to get something done isn't the answer either.

[acolorado]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='27 May 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1274985215' post='469654']
[quote name='Rani' date='26 May 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1274921620' post='469561']
[quote name='TheScotsman' date='26 May 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1274909532' post='469552']
[url="http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zone%E2%80%9D-towers-locked-and-loaded-robo-snipers-%E2%80%9Cauto-kill-zones%E2%80%9D-to-protect-israeli-borders/"]http://whitelocust.w...sraeli-borders/[/url]

Get rid of the operator, make it a fully automated system.
set it back 5 miles of the border, and behind a physical barrier

Southern border solved.
vultures fed.

Next problem.
[/quote]

Yes, well, I'm not certain we're at the 'they're out to destroy us" state Israel is in, but were I Queen of the Country, It'd probably want to install the turrets with tranquilizer darts, and then let the border patrol roam back and forth picking up the snoring and return them to their side of the border.

I'm all in favor of getting tougher on immigration, but I'm not in favor of a law that gives police more power to use against anyone and everyone they choose. It's the first step in a downhill slide to national and potentially racial identity cards.

'Rani
[/quote]

Have a hard time convincing the 12 people a day murdered by illegal mexicans, another 10 by other acts of negligent homicide. Here are a few, try convincing any one of these families that the battle against illegal aliens is not a war. Let me know how that goes. [url="http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html"]http://www.immigrati...imevictims.html[/url]

4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens.
3,622 Americans killed through negligent homicide by illegals annually.
68,00 since Sept. 11, 2001.

83% of AZ murder warrants are for illegal mexicans (where illegals are 15ish% of the pop/)
Somewhere I read 92% of LA murder warrants were on illegals, but I an not sure of the source)


Sounds pretty damn much like a war to me.

These guys are a threat.
[url="http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978260907"]http://news.gather.c...281474978260907[/url]
and in the end, it will only take a handful to repeat a WTC type incident.

Tell me again, why is Israel different? I am thinking all may not all be "out to get us" but who cares what drives them. Dead is dead, the undeniable fact is that if they are not here, they can't kill American citizens. In the end, I would rather see a wall, and lethal automatic devices than a national/racial ID card, data base, or any other liberty lost as a result of the actions of people who don't obey our laws.

Over the years I think I have seen about any power the police get abused, misused, or stretched beyond it's intended use. In the end, it sounds a bit like we are not that far apart in our views.
[/quote]

You forgot to add some balance to your fact free source.

[url="http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?ID=403"]My link[/url] - foreign born immigrants have lower incarceration rates than natives, and Mexicans have lower rates than other immigrants.
[url="http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/docs/Arizona_Punishment_Doesnt_Fit_the_Crime_042810.pdf"]My link[/url] - Crime in Arizona has been dropping, even as illegal immigrants pour in.
[url="http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/22/how-immigration-crackdowns-bac/1"]My link[/url] - A great article on how all evidence points to illegal immigrants committing fewer crimes than than native born citizens, and how law enforcement, those who know, believe this law will backfire, leading to crime committed against immigrants.

If you haven't seen any crime committed by Americans against immigrants, you must be living on the moon.

I couldn't find the source of the numbers you use anywhere in your reference. What I DID find were references to the hispanic population of Los Angeles - most of whom are citizens, which made no distinction between legal citizens and illegal immigrants - obviously intended to scare us into thinking the country is overrun with scary brown people. After a few more minutes of reading your link it became apparent that it doesn't matter to those who support the site whether hispanics are legal or illegal - as such things do not matter to racists.

Five minutes of research to debunk your little whitewashed fantasy.

Now the "Constitutional Conservatives" who scream to high heaven about their inalienable rights every time someone even hints at gun control or a new government regulation, want unconstitutional illegal searches of brown people at will, and to strip the children of illegal immigrants of their citizenship - Constitution and the 4th and 14th Amendment be damned. No matter how they have been enforced throughout the history of our country - if you think someone doesn't deserve a right the United States has always granted them, then you think it should be law. It's downright disgusting how open they are in their hypocrisy. The fact is Conservatives can't live by the same standards they set for others, are almost always wrong in their analysis of the Constitution, and ignore it the moment it becomes inconvenient.

I don't want you to stop though. Keep up the racism - keep up the lies - keep up the screaming. All across America, hispanic citizens are seeing first hand how many closet KKK are out there. They'll be voting Dem for generations, and by 2040 most voters will be minority.

Those who support this law are racists, dinosaurs, hypocrits, liars, and well on their way out the door into becoming an ugly footnote in U.S. history.

Quite a few of my neighbors are illegals. They're the best neighbors I've ever had. They're not selling crack out the windows like the middle aged white couple who used to live next door. They send their kids to school, unlike the lady who used to live down the hall and hated all blacks. They look out for each other - when someone was trying to break into my apartment (a white guy) - they called the cops when the citizens around here ignored it. I'll take them any day over one of you.

Just look at the countless incidents of white "militia" (read skinheads), and "patriots" (read skinheads), and "survivalists" (read skinheads) gunning down police officers, planting bombs at mosques filled with U.S. citizens, and even blowing up buildings (Oklahoma). They are the real threat facing this country. When they lose an election, they openly declare that if they can't win it by the ballot box, they will consider resorting to the bullet box. They are unfit to live in our democracy, and have not one shred of understanding of our Constitution or Law.

And I have no doubt from my experience of Conservatives that you are living on welfare while complaining about the government, under some order of the court because you committed a crime, or simply trying to blame people who look different because you have failed to succeed in our society.

You are a stain on our nation.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Rani]

[quote name='jezter6' date='28 May 2010 - 06:19 AM' timestamp='1275052788' post='469772']
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1275002721' post='469694']
[/quote]

I would consider stupid putting words in my mouth I didn't say.

Where did I say I was sad at strengthening the borders so they cannot come across, treating them unfairly, etc? I have steadfastly stated our immigration law is screwed up, I'm not in favor of amnesty in reward for criminal behavior, nor did I suggest remotely they should not be punished for entering the country illegally. Quit assuming that because I believe the issue is one that needs not only humanitarian treatment all around while protecting our borders and the rights every American citizen should already have that I'm on the side of criminal behavior.

'Rani
[/quote]

Was making a generalization of anti-AZ law viewpoint. I apologize if that came across like I was explicitly calling you out for that. [b][color="#FF0000"]Thank you and accepted.[/color][/b]



[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275017157' post='469735']
I hear you Ray, but you're talking rational actions, by rational police officers. I know one hell of a lot of police officers that don't remotely approach reasonable. Most of my friends, predominately retired police officers will openly tell you they're racist and they will stop people based on their race under whatever suspicion. Prove you weren't doing 2 miles over the speed limit, go ahead. If they want to stop you they will whether you actually do anything wrong or not, and the State of Arizona has now given them carte blanch. What the law is written to allow and what the on site enforcement will actually do with that law in effect is entirely and completely different if the officer's interpretation thinks it's different.
[/quote]
If you have a problem with corrupt police officers, then fix the problem. Don't handcuff ALL cops and prevent them from doing a GOOD thing by trying to catch more criminals because you know there are some bad cops out there that "might" be a problem here. Your argument shouldn't be against this law, but towards better police officers. That's a problem across the country and has nothing to do with this specific law. [color="#FF0000"][b]We've always needed better police officers. There's an Internal Affairs Division for a reason. And yes, it needs to be fixed, but until it is they will continue to use their power to do as they please and we're supposed to be stopping them not enabling them. This law enables them further.
[/b][/color]


[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275017157' post='469735']
What's more, the food on every table at dinner tonight would have cost substantially more without the exploitation of illegal immigrants. Most houses are built with scab labor of which a great percentage is illegal. I'm not saying it's right, but I definitely am tired of people yelling "they're taking our jobs" when they don't want to pay fair market for table grapes, etc., and do the dirty work these jobs require. Anyone who doesn't admit that a substantial portion of our "below poverty working class" economy is currently driven by illegal workers doesn't know what they're talking about. They're at least as much victims of US exploitation as we are of their incursion.
[/quote]

That's always the argument. "But it's cheap labor that Americans wont do." Sure, our fruits and veg might be a little cheaper, but when is that cost offset by all the things illegals TAKE from the economy - like welfare programs, bailing out on hospital bills without payment, the cost of housing hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrant criminals in our jails. Guess what, our food's cheaper, but our insurance and taxes are more expensive. We STILL end up paying the same amount (if not more) for our total cost of living. Just because it seems pretty on the food cost side, everyone suddenly turns a big blind eye to the COSTS of illegal immigration. [color="#FF0000"] [b]It's not a little more expensive - it's a LOT more expensive - try double what yo're paying now. And it also backfires because when the cost of a certain produce goes up, the public stops buying it and the grower goes bankrupt or requires government subsidies to survive. California is an ag state providing a substantial portion of the produce to the nation. We see this all the time. Contrary to the propaganda you're hearing, illegal aliens rarely if ever use public agencies or benefits. They can't afford to have their identification scrutinized which would happen if they became part of the government agency system. They avoid the government and even hospitals at all costs whenever possible. unless they have no choice. They don't even use banking services. Yet social security and taxes are taken out of their checks that they will never get back. They give up the same percentage of their check you do, but just never file tax returns or apply for Social Security.
[/b][/color]
[quote name='Rani' date='27 May 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1275017157' post='469735']
There's also the fact that a number of illegal immigrants are not looking for a temporary job or even a better life. They're fleeing for their lives from South American civil unrest that continues to this day though it's not nearly the cause celeb the Middle East war is. Imagine living in cartel Mexico yourself. The waiting list to get legal entry is years. With gunfire all around you and your children at risk. Are you going to wait years for the right paperwork? Or are you going to try and get yourself and your family to relative safety even if it makes you a criminal in the process?

Again, I'm not remotely saying it's right to have open unguarded borders anyone can go through, but damn it we need to find humane answers without turning every state into it's own police state. And contrary to popular belief (and what's been stated here) we don't send the criminal class illegals to prison unless it's a Class 1 felony. Anything less we just send them home, and that in itself needs to stop.

My entire point has been that it's a complex issue that isn't going to be easily solved with a "let's just get them all the hell out of here" attitude.

'Rani
[/quote]

Arizona is no more of a police state than ANY other state in the union. You're making mountains out of molehills. [b][color="#FF0000"]N[/color][/b][color="#FF0000"][b]obody said it was a police state at the moment but I'd suggest it's taken the first step. Rights don't disappear overnight - they get chipped away at until you discover you have none.[/b][/color]

I don't disagree that we need to find a better way, but until that better way shows up - people should still be doing something about it. Just ignoring the problem while we wait for the feds to get something done isn't the answer either. [color="#FF0000"][b]If we were ignoring it, we wouldn't have an INS in the first place. We all agree something needs to be done, but this law is going to backfire big time and it not only can but will be used against legal citizens as well. "Hear me now, believe me later."[/b][/color]
[/quote]

[b][color="#FF0000"]People think Los Angeles has a predominate illegal Mexican population. We do have a substantial Mexican expatriate community but what looks on the surface as Mexican is actually heavily weighted with South American refugees, many of whom fled with their lives and nothing else. We can't lump them all together. Though I personally feel that stemming the tide is a necessary step because it's like your computer hard-drive. You only have so much storage space. If you stop storing movies on it, you're got a lot more room for music. Reducing the number of illegal immigrants should in theory loosen the quotas on legal entry. But we can't treat people inhumanely or diminish the rights of everyone while we resolve the issue. But the country is going to have to pay real money for services currently provided by illegal aliens if you really want the problem resolved. We can't have it both ways. [/color][/b]
[b] [/b]
[b][color="#FF0000"]'Rani[/color][/b]