What Difference Makes A Tight Pack?

[Jaffi]

Hey folks

When I pack my phunnel bowl I always pack it more or less tight, not as tight as I pack tangiers and nakhla (those ones I pack REALLY tight, nakhla even more than tangiers). So when I pack AF, I pack it a bit below the rim, patting it down so there are really no gaps in the tobacco and it smokes well. But it uses up a lot of tobacco. Thats why I want to get away from that technique when smoking Starbuzz etc. Do you think I could also just sprinkle the tobacco in the phunnel, filling it a bit below the rim too, but having a lot of gaps in the tobacco? Is the dense pack even necessary when I am not smoking tangiers or nakhla?

[joytron]

Honestly just give it a try and see if it works for you, I usually pack it fluffy and dont have a problem at all.

[rahl071]

I pack it really fluffy and then use a fork to pack it down flush.

[Arcane]

[quote name='Jaffi' date='17 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274129106' post='468437']
Hey folks

When I pack my phunnel bowl I always pack it more or less tight, not as tight as I pack tangiers and nakhla (those ones I pack REALLY tight, nakhla even more than tangiers). So when I pack AF, I pack it a bit below the rim, patting it down so there are really no gaps in the tobacco and it smokes well. But it uses up a lot of tobacco. Thats why I want to get away from that technique when smoking Starbuzz etc. Do you think I could also just sprinkle the tobacco in the phunnel, filling it a bit below the rim too, but having a lot of gaps in the tobacco? Is the dense pack even necessary when I am not smoking tangiers or nakhla?
[/quote]
Starbuzz should work with nearly any method of packing....in order for it to sell as well as it does, it's probably designed to have no-nothing hookah lounge owners or employees be able to pack it correctly.

which is another reason why i think Tangiers hasn't flooded hookah lounges everywhere. it takes a little bit of know-how to get it to smoke right. you can't just dump some in a bowl and sit a 33mm or 40mm QL on it and expect it to be fine. if a majority of hookah lounges knew what they were doing, i think we'd be seeing Tangiers destroying Starbuzz in sales...

[Chreees]

[quote name='Arcane' date='17 May 2010 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1274130756' post='468442']
[quote name='Jaffi' date='17 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274129106' post='468437']
Hey folks

When I pack my phunnel bowl I always pack it more or less tight, not as tight as I pack tangiers and nakhla (those ones I pack REALLY tight, nakhla even more than tangiers). So when I pack AF, I pack it a bit below the rim, patting it down so there are really no gaps in the tobacco and it smokes well. But it uses up a lot of tobacco. Thats why I want to get away from that technique when smoking Starbuzz etc. Do you think I could also just sprinkle the tobacco in the phunnel, filling it a bit below the rim too, but having a lot of gaps in the tobacco? Is the dense pack even necessary when I am not smoking tangiers or nakhla?
[/quote]
Starbuzz should work with nearly any method of packing....in order for it to sell as well as it does, it's probably designed to have no-nothing hookah lounge owners or employees be able to pack it correctly.

which is another reason why i think Tangiers hasn't flooded hookah lounges everywhere. it takes a little bit of know-how to get it to smoke right. you can't just dump some in a bowl and sit a 33mm or 40mm QL on it and expect it to be fine. if a majority of hookah lounges knew what they were doing, i think we'd be seeing Tangiers destroying Starbuzz in sales...
[/quote]

Totally agree, Jay.

As for AF, I pack it pretty light, then gently press it down so it's flush with the rim of the bowl. Works every time. I do the same thing with Starbuzz.

[InfamousOpusX]

I keep it loose and away from the foil and I never have too many problems. I just think keeping it simple is the best way to go about everything, however, experimenting is never a bad way to find new solutions to problems we all have. Please fill us in on what you find!

[ih303]

I think a lot of us get lazy with the way we pack because a lot of us use phunnel bowls. You have to be much more mindful of your packing with non-phunnel bowls because it simply won't smoke or pull well if you don't.

It's actually relatively simple to figure out if you think about it in terms of your end result. What you're looking for is the perfect balance between heat-transfer and air-flow. With tobacco, the most effective form of heat transfer is conduction. Therefore, heat should be able to travel from the coal and into the foil where it's dispersed throughout the tobacco. The denser the pack, the fewer obstructing air pockets, the better the heat transfer. But here's where the second factor, air-flow, comes into play. If you pack it too dense, you restrict air flow. So the challenge remains in finding that "sweet spot".

Aside from juiciness, cut size is also a factor. The juicier and/or finer cut the tobacco is, the more its tendency to stick together and restrict airflow. I came up with a silly little rhyme I tell people at my lounge to help them remember the basics of this. It's "The Jucier, the loose-ier". Sure it's dumb, but it illustrates a point - juicier and finer tobaccos need to be broken apart and packed looser to promote air-flow.

So, based on all of that, here's how I do mine in order from tightest to loosest:

[b]Course/Dry (e.g. Nakhla) - Tight
[/b]Now, when I say tight, I mean I over-pack the bowl and then even it out with a fork. Nakhla's dry so it works really well with this method. However, Mizo's another story.

[b]Course/Wet (e.g. Tangiers Lucid, Starbuzz, Nakhla Mizo, etc.) - Full
[/b]By this I mean I over-pack the bowl only slightly, and it's neither tight nor loose.

[b]Fine/Wet (e.g. Al Fakher, Romman, Fumari, etc.) - Loose
[/b]With this stuff, break it apart as much as you can and sprinkle it in until you get a full bowl

[b]*** EXCEPTION TO RULE ***

Course/Wet (e.g. Tangiers Noir) - Super tight
[/b]I still don't understand how Tangiers works, but if you don't pack it super tight in a phunnel bowl, it's harsh as hell.



Of course, this is all based on my experience only. Your milage may vary.


Sorry for the novel but I write how I think - too much.

[Jaffi]

So in a Phunnel Bowl, a tighter pack would always be the better choice? Because there can't be any restriction to the air flow AND the tighter the pack/the less air between the tobacco, the better the conduction is? Did I geht that right?

[ih303]

[quote name='Jaffi' date='18 May 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1274217329' post='468558']
So in a Phunnel Bowl, a tighter pack would always be the better choice? Because there can't be any restriction to the air flow AND the tighter the pack/the less air between the tobacco, the better the conduction is? Did I geht that right?
[/quote]

Keep in mind, phunnel bowls still rely on the same principals as regular bowls, i.e. heat distribution and air flow. Only the flow of air in a phunnel takes a different route.

Based on my observations and depending on your hole pattern and packing density, heated air will take one of two paths in a phunnel bowl. If your holes are distributed liberally across the foil's surface like in the case of Tangiers Noir, heated air is pulled across the top surface of the tobacco cooking it from the top down. This is easily observed with the presence of fresh tobacco under a layer of crisp, cashed stuff when emptying a phunnel bowl after a session.

The second scenario, one I've been experimenting with a lot lately, involves a relatively small number of larger holes around the outside edge of a phunnel bowl packed loose and full. (Of course, there are variations of this but I'm using this specifically to illustrate my point.) In this case, heated air is pulled in from the holes around the outside of the bowl, through the tobacco mass, and down the center. The goal here is to expose more tobacco to more air leading to thicker smoke, better flavor, bowl longevity, and less wasted shisha.

In both of these scenarios, it's still very important to mind your air flow/pack density relationship. True, you have a lot more flexibility with a phunnel since even the juiciest tobaccos won't restrict your pull. But hopefully you realize there's more to a good session than ease-of-pull.

In fact, my recommendation for new smokers as well as veteren smokers who want to perfect their sessions would be to temporarily decommission your phunnel and invest in a good egyptian clay bowl. Work on perfecting your smoke with an egyptian bowl. Once this is accomplished, take what you've learned back to your phunnel and be amazed by what you are now capable of.

[Jaffi]

[quote name='ih303' date='19 May 2010 - 05:40 AM' timestamp='1274272841' post='468636']
The second scenario, one I've been experimenting with a lot lately, involves a relatively small number of larger holes around the outside edge of a phunnel bowl packed loose and full. (Of course, there are variations of this but I'm using this specifically to illustrate my point.) In this case, heated air is pulled in from the holes around the outside of the bowl, through the tobacco mass, and down the center. The goal here is to expose more tobacco to more air leading to thicker smoke, better flavor, bowl longevity, and less wasted shisha.
[/quote]


When you speak about this second scenario, do you overpack the bowl when you pack it loose? I mean do you pack it above the rim of the bowl, but loose? Otherwise I couldn't see how that should work, because there would be a gap between the foil and the tobacco, so the air wouldn't really be pulled through it.
Anyways, like Mushrat said, the tobacco which does not get in contact with air is extremely well heated by the phunnel itself, since its material conducts the heat very well.
But you are right, too, evenly distributed airflow in the bowl should be beneficial. But in a phunnel bowl, I think this is harder to achieve than in an egyptian!

[ih303]

You're absolutely right. In fact, as much as I love phunnel bowls, that's one thing I don't really care for. I'm tired of taking my foil off only to find a ring of tobacco with only the top half burnt. This is why I've been experimenting with different methods to try to expose more tobacco to smoke.

[ngraz617]

I found with the Alien you pack it pretty tight and go through two sets of two coals with a cover 50% of the time or more three times but last set of two isn't great or two sets of three with cover 25% of time and all tobacco is used and full flavored providing no burnt upper half and then the ultimate decision, what now? good remedy, use balance of unused shisha in an alien.

[Jesse]

I use Incubusratm's method of a fluffy pack with to the rim with a light press of the palm to even things out with AF and Al Baraka.. it works quite well. Going to try overpack tonight on some Nakh DA I've mixed with Nakh Scherazade Cinnamon. Should be epic if I do it right.

[antouwan]

[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1274130756' post='468442']
[quote name='Jaffi' date='17 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274129106' post='468437']
Hey folks

When I pack my phunnel bowl I always pack it more or less tight, not as tight as I pack tangiers and nakhla (those ones I pack REALLY tight, nakhla even more than tangiers). So when I pack AF, I pack it a bit below the rim, patting it down so there are really no gaps in the tobacco and it smokes well. But it uses up a lot of tobacco. Thats why I want to get away from that technique when smoking Starbuzz etc. Do you think I could also just sprinkle the tobacco in the phunnel, filling it a bit below the rim too, but having a lot of gaps in the tobacco? Is the dense pack even necessary when I am not smoking tangiers or nakhla?
[/quote]
Starbuzz should work with nearly any method of packing....in order for it to sell as well as it does, it's probably designed to have no-nothing hookah lounge owners or employees be able to pack it correctly.

which is another reason why i think Tangiers hasn't flooded hookah lounges everywhere. it takes a little bit of know-how to get it to smoke right. you can't just dump some in a bowl and sit a 33mm or 40mm QL on it and expect it to be fine. if a majority of hookah lounges knew what they were doing, [b]i think we'd be seeing Tangiers destroying Starbuzz in sales...[/b]
[/quote]

i'm not so sure.

you have a point in terms of product quality (from what i hear about noir tangiers. i'm no hookah noob, and have probably gone through about 4 kilos (EASY) of tangiers, i've resigned myself to the fact that i can't get it to acclimate properly where i live) but i don't think that tangiers has the production capability, distribution networks, or marketing to be able to keep up with demand. lets look at kingsford charcoal for a second, it's a pretty mediocre product, but it has the best distribution and great marketing, so it just makes its products extremely accessible and has great sales - that's how starbuzz works. from speaking with some retailers, i know that tangiers has a problem keeping up with the demand of its retailers; if even more stress of production were placed on it from lounges, i don't think they would be able to keep up. nothing against tangiers (i absolutely love lucid - because that's all i can get to perform for me), but i've gathered that it's a niche product with more of a hobbyist/enthusiast feel to it. i'd even go out on a limb and say that massive distribution of tangiers would take something away from the product.

[king_lunchb0x]

[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1300557721' post='502080']
[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1274130756' post='468442']
[quote name='Jaffi' date='17 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274129106' post='468437']
Hey folks

When I pack my phunnel bowl I always pack it more or less tight, not as tight as I pack tangiers and nakhla (those ones I pack REALLY tight, nakhla even more than tangiers). So when I pack AF, I pack it a bit below the rim, patting it down so there are really no gaps in the tobacco and it smokes well. But it uses up a lot of tobacco. Thats why I want to get away from that technique when smoking Starbuzz etc. Do you think I could also just sprinkle the tobacco in the phunnel, filling it a bit below the rim too, but having a lot of gaps in the tobacco? Is the dense pack even necessary when I am not smoking tangiers or nakhla?
[/quote]
Starbuzz should work with nearly any method of packing....in order for it to sell as well as it does, it's probably designed to have no-nothing hookah lounge owners or employees be able to pack it correctly.

which is another reason why i think Tangiers hasn't flooded hookah lounges everywhere. it takes a little bit of know-how to get it to smoke right. you can't just dump some in a bowl and sit a 33mm or 40mm QL on it and expect it to be fine. if a majority of hookah lounges knew what they were doing, [b]i think we'd be seeing Tangiers destroying Starbuzz in sales...[/b]
[/quote]

i'm not so sure.

you have a point in terms of product quality (from what i hear about noir tangiers. i'm no hookah noob, and have probably gone through about 4 kilos (EASY) of tangiers, i've resigned myself to the fact that i can't get it to acclimate properly where i live) but i don't think that tangiers has the production capability, distribution networks, or marketing to be able to keep up with demand. lets look at kingsford charcoal for a second, it's a pretty mediocre product, but it has the best distribution and great marketing, so it just makes its products extremely accessible and has great sales - that's how starbuzz works. from speaking with some retailers, i know that tangiers has a problem keeping up with the demand of its retailers; if even more stress of production were placed on it from lounges, i don't think they would be able to keep up. nothing against tangiers (i absolutely love lucid - because that's all i can get to perform for me), but i've gathered that it's a niche product with more of a hobbyist/enthusiast feel to it. i'd even go out on a limb and say that massive distribution of tangiers would take something away from the product.
[/quote]


hate to say it but sounds very plausible to me. starbuzz for the masses and tang for the enthusiast

[magick777]

There is a lot to be said for "suck it and see", but my gut feeling is that if you want to use less tobacco, the best thing to change is the size of your bowl.

I have had success with packing 15g of Lucid in a funnel that holds 25g brim-full, packing it very tight and leaving a 3-4mm gap below the foil. However, that's Lucid, and I don't resent the amount of tobacco it uses, if I can get twice the duration compared with a bowl of anything else. Never smoked SB so can't comment on that specific shisha. But, the question I would ask is "does packing it tight increase the flavour or longevity without causing problems?", in which case, do it. All other things being equal, pack as much shisha as smokes well in your bowl, and if that gives more duration than you want, or wastes shisha, use a smaller bowl.

In other words, pack your shisha however it seems to smoke best; to do anything else is false economy. But, if your bowl takes 30g and you routinely smoke alone, consider a smaller bowl; I have no reservations (well, other than price) in recommending a Crown Micro Phunnel or a Saphire Hot Shot, which both smoke fine on 10g and 5g respectively.

[ilikemyusername]

I gotta tell you cuz nobody else seems to want to.... Starbuzz is a beginners tobacco not even worth smoking but if you insist on smoking it in a phunnel and don't want to pack a full phunnel tight, just use a mod, it will be fine. I can totlly understand not wanting to pack a full bowl of the stuff, economically speaking it's like smoking a pack a day.

[ukhookah]

I tend to pack pretty much everything tight as I just prefer it. The juicer wetter tobacco can be packed lighter, but I think this method works better in an standard bowl (referring to a mya bowl)

[CKilla]

[quote name='ngraz617' timestamp='1274508292' post='468979']
I found with the Alien you pack it pretty tight and go through two sets of two coals with a cover 50% of the time or more three times but last set of two isn't great or two sets of three with cover 25% of time and all tobacco is used and full flavored providing no burnt upper half and then the ultimate decision, what now? good remedy, use balance of unused shisha in an alien.
[/quote]

I agree, i usually go through two sets of three coals starting out with the coals at an angle off the rim of the bowl, and I'll get at least a two hour session. The alien uses everything packed to its full potential.. before i was all about the vortex, but I've been neglecting my vortex after I got my alien!! As for packing, I pat it down just below the rim, it's pretty tight, but not too fluffly..juuust right!