Deaths As Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship

[shah1]

well i dont think i really have to tell u what this is all about.... i just want to know ur opinion on it

p.s if u dont know this will help [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...t/10195838.stm[/url]

[Haz]

Its not surprising that they did this but it is surprising that they get away with it. No other country in the world could do something like this without some form of punishment. They're strangling a nation to death.

The most disheartening thing is that Jews have been persecuted the most in recent history, you would think that they would be a bit more understanding and tolerant towards others.

[mustafabey]

There is a double standard in the way we deal with the Mid East and it is the roots of America's problems there. One set of rules for the Israeli's and another for everyone else.I am not a fan of Ahmedinijad, but why is it OK to for Israel to have nukes and not Iran? Why is it OK for Israeli's to engage in terrorism( of which this recent episode is only one incident) and its not OK for Palestinian's? I know thats probably greatly oversimplifying a very complex problem that was a legacy of Britain's lies to all sides after WW I. In the end, however, the Palestinians in Israel will become a majority and then the shit will really hit the fan. Netanyahu is very right wing, he's not interested in any peace process and I think part of the reason for this massacre was to let the US he's not going to budge on the West Bank settlements or anything else. Israel loses Turkey as an ally and partner and the stablity over there gets a little bit worse;

[Rani]

I'm withholding opinion until an international investigation is complete, though I will say that war like arguments is never one sided. Both sides will always be aggressive in their own interests otherwise it wouldn't be a war.

The biggest sadness I have over the Middle East is that really what it boils down to is dirt. Nations really aren't about what part of soil you occupy. They're your traditions, your history, heritage, culture,and family. All of which you take with you no matter where you are. Throughout history we've killed off entire races of people over the dirt they're living on. How can this possibly be justified? I understand the historical value of places where our history was formed, but how can even that be more important than lives lost and children raised under constant gunfire and hatred.

And yes I know, I live in a country that is firmly established, but that wasn't always the case and I hope that eventually the Middle East will settle as well.

'Rani

[shah1]

theres never going to be an international investigation israel arnt going to allow it

[Tyler]

You know, I usually back the United States in most of their missions, but there's no way anyone with any sort of common sense would actually SUPPORT the United State's lopsided support of Israel. Now, with that being said I don't condone Gaza or West Bank's actions most of the time either, but honestly -- they really are in a life or death situation.

Support Gaza

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' date='01 June 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1275444256' post='470218']

The biggest sadness I have over the Middle East is that really what it boils down to is dirt. Nations really aren't about what part of soil you occupy. They're your traditions, your history, heritage, culture,and family. All of which you take with you no matter where you are. Throughout history we've killed off entire races of people over the dirt they're living on. How can this possibly be justified? I understand the historical value of places where our history was formed, but how can even that be more important than lives lost and children raised under constant gunfire and hatred.



'Rani
[/quote]



Yes,Rani, it boils down to dirt. You are also correct about what nationhood consists of, but dirt is surely part of that equation. For the Jews it is "dirt promised by god" and considering that they held their nationhood intact for centuries without the land, and considering what they have been thru, they have some right to that land. On the other hand,the Palestinians have had a long term lease on that land, going back as far as the Jews. We tend to view them as Arabs( a nation very much defined today by culture and language), but they are a hodge podge mixture of Canaanites,Philistines,Egyptians, Romans, etc that occupied that land for centuries. When discussing the plight of the Palestinian people with others I use a Native American analogy. Native Americas were the first tenants of the American continents. How would the average non Indian feel if all of a sudden someone showed up at their door and said, you have to move out, your house and land now belong to this family of Native Americans who lived here 2000 years ago? ( And I am against some kind of land settlement for Native Americans in the US, besides the useless lands they were given)
In the end, the Palestinians were never considered when the state of Israel was formed. Throughout the early 20th century, lip service was paid by the Brits to the Arab population, but in the end and confusion of war many left, hoping to return, and others were forced out. Many Palestinian famiies still retain the keys to their homes in Israel. The Arab states hold responsiblity also, for not ever extending citizenship to Palestinian refugees. They allowed them to rot in refugee camps, for the Palestinian cause was a pan Arab rallying point. Without those refugees that point would be severely diluted.
Its a shame that the sons of Abraham could not have worked out an equitable solution to the problem.
And Tyler is correct also, Israel will never allow an international investigation, at least not under Netanyahu's watch.
Again this is all oversimplification of this complex issue.

[mushrat]

ok, I'm putting on my flame resistant shorts here...

The rest of the Arab world has the means to fix the Palestinian problem in short order, offer real aid, relocation, put pressure on the separate factions to come to a peaceful co-existance, the ways are endless. How many Arab neighbors have promised aid that they have actually delivered? I mean money in the bank not just promises.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54549-2005Feb25.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0259950820080502
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7379328.stm


The Palestinians are as much pawns of their "friends" as they are the US and Israel. There CAN NOT be peace int he region until Israel has a real government to negotiate WITH. Negotiating with Fatah has no effect on what happens in Hamas controlled areas, Negotiating with HAMAS will mean that Fatah will not go along with it. WHO the hell is Israel supposed to negotiate WITH if there is no central government for them to work things out with. The Palestinians have to unify before they can be negotiated with. And thats an Issue for the Palestinians alone, Fatah, Hamas, or perhaps a more moderate 3rd part can arise. But they need to get their house in order before they can be taken seriously as a group.

Secondly, The land belongs to Israel. Sorry, this is what happens when you lose a Land War. The Palestinians backed the wrong side in 1948 and they lost. Do you see the US retuning land to the Indians on the reservations here? I mean Im for giving them back, say the mid west, but seriously, how do you think they ended up where they ARE now? They weren't driven on a Trail of Tears out of their homelands, they went there so the Arab armies could get to Israel easier when the clock struck midnight that fateful day in '48. And they LOST. Next time, I suggest protecting your own lands and not letting another country launch attacks through them. Especially if they are going to lose.

Give back Jerusalem? Hell no. The last time Jerusalem was held by an Arab country they closed the Old City to the Jews. The Muslims are lucky Israel didn't do the same.

Now to the Embargo.

What gives them the right, the fact that the people there elected a government that has vowed to destroy the State of Israel. And the fact they are living on land that the same state of Israel controls access to. Let me make an analogy, if the Indians on say the Mohawk reservation in New York came out of the Casinos long enough to start lobbing home made rockets into cities and farms in NY what would the US do? We'd send in the fricking ARMY thats what we'd do. We'd go in there and arrest everyone involved, plant troops in there and that would be that. So how is this different from what happening in Gaza? Except for the fact that Israel hasn't done what the US would do in a similar case.

Sorry folks, you knew this was going to happen when you elected a government that is considered by the rest of the world to be a terrorist organization. Why weren't you better prepared for the consequences? Why are your "friends" not giving the money they promised?

Read the actual articles about the boarding parties and the purpose of the flotilla. The Israeli soldiers were attacked when they got on deck, what were they supposed to do but defend themselves? You take on soldiers you better be prepared to FIGHT like soldiers. And soldiers dies sometimes when they fight. A quote from one of the organizers says that this wasn't about bringing in supplies, it was about running the embargo and getting a response. He got his response. He used those activists and he knowingly put them in a position where they could get hurt or killed to make a point.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_un_israel_palestinians

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_israel_flotilla_tactics

READ what the facts are. WATCH the video. SEE who started the violence on these ships and THEN decide if it was a peaceful flotilla of activists with gas masks and weapons, or a set up that Israel fell right into.

Oh and a final note, the UN is a joke that is used for one country to call another one names. It has no real power and the US, the last time I looked, not only pays for most of it's operational costs, but until Obama stepped into office we owed the UN almost a BILLION dollar.

http://www.unausa.org/Page.aspx?pid=1633



Having said all of that.....

I have no desire to visit Israel. I was raised Jewish but am now what you would consider VERY non-practicing, and at this point in time I have more Muslim and even Palestinian friends than I have Jewish friends and EVERY one of them agrees with me that the Palestinians have got to get their own house in order before anything else is done.

This is a rare political posting and you won't see another one for a while.

[Venger]

[quote name='mushrat' date='02 June 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1275489139' post='470287']
ok, I'm putting on my flame resistant shorts here...

The rest of the Arab world has the means to fix the Palestinian problem in short order, offer real aid, relocation, put pressure on the separate factions to come to a peaceful co-existance, the ways are endless. How many Arab neighbors have promised aid that they have actually delivered? I mean money in the bank not just promises.

[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54549-2005Feb25.html"]http://www.washingto...-2005Feb25.html[/url]
[url="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0259950820080502"]http://www.reuters.c...259950820080502[/url]
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7379328.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/7379328.stm[/url]


The Palestinians are as much pawns of their "friends" as they are the US and Israel. There CAN NOT be peace int he region until Israel has a real government to negotiate WITH. Negotiating with Fatah has no effect on what happens in Hamas controlled areas, Negotiating with HAMAS will mean that Fatah will not go along with it. WHO the hell is Israel supposed to negotiate WITH if there is no central government for them to work things out with. The Palestinians have to unify before they can be negotiated with. And thats an Issue for the Palestinians alone, Fatah, Hamas, or perhaps a more moderate 3rd part can arise. But they need to get their house in order before they can be taken seriously as a group.

Secondly, The land belongs to Israel. Sorry, this is what happens when you lose a Land War. The Palestinians backed the wrong side in 1948 and they lost. Do you see the US retuning land to the Indians on the reservations here? I mean Im for giving them back, say the mid west, but seriously, how do you think they ended up where they ARE now? They weren't driven on a Trail of Tears out of their homelands, they went there so the Arab armies could get to Israel easier when the clock struck midnight that fateful day in '48. And they LOST. Next time, I suggest protecting your own lands and not letting another country launch attacks through them. Especially if they are going to lose.

Give back Jerusalem? Hell no. The last time Jerusalem was held by an Arab country they closed the Old City to the Jews. The Muslims are lucky Israel didn't do the same.

Now to the Embargo.

What gives them the right, the fact that the people there elected a government that has vowed to destroy the State of Israel. And the fact they are living on land that the same state of Israel controls access to. Let me make an analogy, if the Indians on say the Mohawk reservation in New York came out of the Casinos long enough to start lobbing home made rockets into cities and farms in NY what would the US do? We'd send in the fricking ARMY thats what we'd do. We'd go in there and arrest everyone involved, plant troops in there and that would be that. So how is this different from what happening in Gaza? Except for the fact that Israel hasn't done what the US would do in a similar case.

Sorry folks, you knew this was going to happen when you elected a government that is considered by the rest of the world to be a terrorist organization. Why weren't you better prepared for the consequences? Why are your "friends" not giving the money they promised?

Read the actual articles about the boarding parties and the purpose of the flotilla. The Israeli soldiers were attacked when they got on deck, what were they supposed to do but defend themselves? You take on soldiers you better be prepared to FIGHT like soldiers. And soldiers dies sometimes when they fight. A quote from one of the organizers says that this wasn't about bringing in supplies, it was about running the embargo and getting a response. He got his response. He used those activists and he knowingly put them in a position where they could get hurt or killed to make a point.

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_un_israel_palestinians"]http://news.yahoo.co...el_palestinians[/url]

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_israel_flotilla_tactics"]http://news.yahoo.co...lotilla_tactics[/url]

READ what the facts are. WATCH the video. SEE who started the violence on these ships and THEN decide if it was a peaceful flotilla of activists with gas masks and weapons, or a set up that Israel fell right into.

Oh and a final note, the UN is a joke that is used for one country to call another one names. It has no real power and the US, the last time I looked, not only pays for most of it's operational costs, but until Obama stepped into office we owed the UN almost a BILLION dollar.

[url="http://www.unausa.org/Page.aspx?pid=1633"]http://www.unausa.or...e.aspx?pid=1633[/url]



Having said all of that.....

I have no desire to visit Israel. I was raised Jewish but am now what you would consider VERY non-practicing, and at this point in time I have more Muslim and even Palestinian friends than I have Jewish friends and EVERY one of them agrees with me that the Palestinians have got to get their own house in order before anything else is done.

This is a rare political posting and you won't see another one for a while.
[/quote]

I honestly have to say I agree with EVERYTHING you said.Thank you for having the words to say how I feel.
Ray

[TheScotsman]

Mushrat is exactly dead on.

I couldn't have said it better if I tried.

The Turks sent these ships with the single, solitary intent of creating an incident. They are repeatedly the provocational factor from the first revolution of the boats screw.

There is no other reason for the number of people on the boats, nor the number of pieces of pipe, axe handles, and assorted other bludgeons. The boats were obviously scrubbed of any incrimination weapons, or banned items, then stuffed with insane anti-Israel protesters. The response of the Turks to what was a simple cargo inspection was obviously planned, and intended to be violent. I am still amazed that Israels reactions to such attacks are as restrained as they are. What would have happened if that were the USCG, and a load of suspect, er, substances (whew.... I almost said a not-good word-proofreading is a good thing!). The boat would have been riddled with 20mm, and the results would have been justified.

Israel's actions were, at this point, 100% within their rights under international law.

There is a history for valid interception of ships in int'l water.
1909 Declaration of London established the maritime law for a blockade at sea.
It was upheld and reaffirmed in the San Remo Manual

... From the Remo Manual on Int'l Law, and Sea Conflict. (which I just poached from the DA's library.)

[i][u][b]The following activities may render merchant vessels military objectives:[/b][/u][/i]
[i](a) engaging in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy, e.g., laying mines, minesweeping, cutting undersea cables and pipelines, engaging in visit and search of neutral merchant vessels or attacking other merchant vessels;[/i]
[i]( acting as an auxiliary to an enemy's armed forces, e.g., carrying troops or replenishing warships;[/i]
[i](c) being incorporated into or assisting the enemy's intelligence gathering system, e.g., engaging in reconnaissance, early warning, surveillance, or command, control and communications missions;[/i]
[i](d) sailing under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft;[/i]
[u][b](e) refusing an order to stop or [color="#ff0000"]actively resisting visit[/color], search or capture;[/b][/u]
[i](f) being armed to an extent that they could inflict damage to a warship; this excludes light individual weapons for the defence of personnel, e.g., against pirates, and purely deflective systems such as chaff; or[/i]
[i](g) otherwise making an effective contribution to military action, e.g., carrying military materials.[/i]

... Highlight is mine-obviously. Since the news media is actively avoiding this little bit of int'l law, you likely won't hear much about it.
Legally, under international maritime law, the IDF could have sent a patrol boat to put a few torpedoes into the fools and sailed off declaring they had inadequate accommodation to affect rescue.

There is zero question that the violence was initiated by the turkish vessel crew, and "cargo" of anti-Semites. But then the lib-biased media isn't showing that part of the video. Typical.

Cypress turned the boat away from their harbour, calling the chartering company a terrorist organization.


Moreover, show me a humanitarian crisis in gaza. It must be from a factual, non-biased source, and also not be of the "victim's" own making.

Just out of curiosity, where were all these activists when crazy-kim sunk a South Korean patrol boat... in South Korean waters? Edited June 2, 2010 by mushrat
Took out the name calling..again.

[mustafabey]

Truly, Mush is correct. Winning the war is true title to land. And also, the Palestinians need to get their act together. They are pulled apart by various factions of the Arab world. each satisfying their own agendas. However, Israel needs to get its act together also. As long as Palestinians languish in refugee camps, there will be war and terror. Israel's Labor party seems to be in favor of some kind of peace, but the Likud, on the other hand does nothing to promote peace. With governments changing often, there is no set policy in Israel regarding peace. At present, the only solution available to both stubborn sides is total annihilation. You would think the people on both sides would be getting tired of this. Extreme measures are taken by both sides, no one is right here, both sides are terribly wrong and innocent lives pay the price. There are people in Israel who desire peace. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated because he desired peace, killed by his own people. There are certainly enough moderate Palestinians around, but as long as outside nations use groups like Hamas to further their own agendas, a unified Palestinian voice is not going to emerge. My biggest worry here is Iran. If Iran gets close to nuclear capibility, the Israeli's are going to take out their facilities, just as they did in Iraq. Then what?

[Dr. B]

weird. I agree with scotty...

Well, for the most part. I won't take any care to explore the minutia of my divergent opinion about the being of the state of Israel; but for the sake of analyzing the happenings of the flotilla incident, I take the existence of Israel for granted. In such case, were the contents of the ship not gas masks, bullet-proof vests, and lump sums of cash, running a blockade is not an action with ambiguous consequences. I hate to be so succinct but it really does boil down to: In any case, the passengers of the flotilla knew exactly what they were getting into. Edited June 3, 2010 by Dr. B

[mushrat]

http://www.jpost.com/

Watch the video that says "passengers prepare for soldier's arrival" these guys are actually preparing ahead of time with knives, clubs, and poles. Peaceful activists ....right.

[mushrat]

Um..awfully quiet there Shah1. Nothing to add or was this a troll post?

[FiveSpeedF150]

Suppose if Hamas would stop lobbing rockets @ Israel these things might not happen as much.

Oh well, if ever there were two groups of people destined to NEVER get along...

[Chreees]

[quote name='mushrat' date='04 June 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1275708583' post='470681']
Um..awfully quiet there Shah1. Nothing to add or was this a troll post?
[/quote]

Gotta love the trolls...

My opinion on the Middle East... they've been fighting over there for centuries. Nothing's gonna stop it. That simple.

[Vladimir]

Can't fault Israel for enforcing an active, and legitimate blockade.

Have to question the results of said raid.

Have to question why America is the only country that will tolerate countless American deaths without even a hint of anger towards Israel.

There was at least one American citizen killed in this raid, protesters (who in most cases I know of deserved it, but that doesn't change my point), and most significantly the USS Liberty.

[mushrat]

Ah the Liberty. It WAS a spy trawler don't you know.....

Besides, thats what Allies are for, killing each other now and then.

[mushrat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100605/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_blockade_32

Here we go. Read the last sentence. They won't take the aid from the boats, I guess they don't need the help that badly after all.

[matias]

[quote name='mushrat' date='05 June 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1275742728' post='470718']
[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100605/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_blockade_32"]http://news.yahoo.co...aza_blockade_32[/url]

Here we go. Read the last sentence. [b]They[/b] won't take the aid from the boats, I guess they don't need the help that badly after all.
[/quote]

Not [b]they[/b]. Hamas.Hamas don't need the aid. The blocus makes them much stronger and they have little interest in things getting cooler. I think everyone will agree Hamas and the Palestinian people are not equivalent. Just like Nazis and the German people. Hamas holds Gazans hostage (and Israel plays directly in Hamas' hand by making hardliners like Hamas the only viable option. Mark my words, I did not say the Palestinians didn't have their share of responsibility. The French made the same stupid move in what was then French Algeria and replied to select acts of savagery by FLN by large-scale savagery, thus making the population sideline the moderates that until then were the big players and turning what was a very marginal hard-line group [the FLN] in the only reference [who still are in power 50 years later]).

[matias]

correcting myself
[quote name='matias' date='05 June 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1275748297' post='470732']
[making hardliners like Hamas [b]seem to be [/b]the only viable option.
[/quote]

[mustafabey]

While I can understand Israel's need to set up a blockade and stop and search ships for weapons, etc, I wonder about the commandos who assaulted the ship. The activists were apparently trying to engage in some kind of defense(who in their right mind would, with a small group of people,try to mess with the Israeli military) and the commandos responded. Yet, autopsy info released stated that 5 of the 9 died of head shots, and one of those was at point blank range. I wonder if these guys got a little to gung ho. Anyway as of this morning, Israel seized the Irish MV Rachel Corrie with no apparent problems. Its interesting to note, that on both these attempts to break the blockade, Israeli citizens were among the activists. We don't hear about it much, but there is a big divide among Israeli's regarding the ongoing 60 yr old war.

[matias]

It is too early to say who is telling the truth and I would like to hear everyone acknowledge this instead of taking what the Israelis say as the definite truth. Without taking sides as to who is saying the truth and to give a little balance, here are a few testimonies from people on the ship:

[quote]Israel has previously said its troops had been left with no choice after they came under attack from activists armed with knives and iron bars when they were dropped by helicopter on to the ship.

[Ismail] Patel claimed that as soon as the Israeli Defence Force helicopter appeared above the Mavi Marmara, "it started using immediately live ammunition" without any warning being issued.

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill[/quote]

[quote][Alex] Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

The violence was "initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale," she said[/quote]

source: [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-attack-autopsy-results"]http://www.guardian....autopsy-results[/url]

Yay, I can edit my posts now! Edited June 5, 2010 by matias

[matias]

[quote name='mustafabey' date='05 June 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1275749104' post='470734'] The activists were apparently trying to engage in some kind of defense(who in their right mind would, with a small group of people,try to mess with the Israeli military)[/quote]

I am not saying this is what happened, as I do not know what happened, but the only reason I could imagine to do that is because you are already under live fire attack and defending yourself in some way is better than just do nothing.

[mushrat]

You can always edit your posts for 3 or 5 minutes I believe.

Now what gets me is that people seem to think the Israelis are stupid. They really aren't. Do you think even THEY think they can get away with oping fire on ship in international waters without warning? Really?

I know some people will say they are arrogant, and well, many are, but stupid has never been a word you hear much about the IDF. I think they really did go in for an inspection. I do believe they did it in force (in not with) and i do believe the "peaceful" activists attacked them. All the video from both sides confirms that.

As you can see, besides protests and the usual blustering from the UN (la la la did you hear something?) NOTHING has happened. And nothing really will.

I'd like to see both the Palestinians and Israeli's elect moderate governments that can actually find some way to make peace. THATS what the protest should be for. NOT crying because a boat load of people looking for a fight got one.