Zen Meditation And My Conflicts With My Love Of Hookah

[Conradical]

During the past few years, I have shifted from a agnostic view of the world into a more Zen Buddhist style of life. I have recently slacked off in terms of meditation and achieving emptiness, but have adopted a more calm, less easily offended style of life as well as being more aware of my actions and how they affect others. I still drink beer and smoke hookah but have adopted a vegetarian diet which has not only made me feel a lot better overall physically and mentally, but has also balanced out the other vices in my life.

How do you feel about the consumption of mind/mood altering substances by consenting adults in a safe and responsible environment? Do you think these can affect one's state of being in terms of spirituality? If so, is it a good effect or bad affect?

[thecoalition]

fyi most religious/spiritual ceremonies utilize mind altering substances in them, so the real question is does your relationship with god get affected when you do not add in said substances.

[joytron]

Nothing says Zen Buddhism like a Tupac banner

[KeepItSimple]

[quote name='joytron' date='22 June 2010 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1277235579' post='472492']
Nothing says Zen Buddhism like a Tupac banner
[/quote]

Thats what I was thinking haha

[Chreees]

TUPAC!

I'm gonna say that if it doesn't bother your beliefs or spirituality when you drink or smoke, keep on doing it... I guess that's what you're asking?

[acolorado]

[quote name='Conradical' date='22 June 2010 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1277230056' post='472476']
During the past few years, I have shifted from a agnostic view of the world into a more Zen Buddhist style of life. I have recently slacked off in terms of meditation and achieving emptiness, but have adopted a more calm, less easily offended style of life as well as being more aware of my actions and how they affect others. I still drink beer and smoke hookah but have adopted a vegetarian diet which has not only made me feel a lot better overall physically and mentally, but has also balanced out the other vices in my life.

How do you feel about the consumption of mind/mood altering substances by consenting adults in a safe and responsible environment? Do you think these can affect one's state of being in terms of spirituality? If so, is it a good effect or bad affect?
[/quote]

From the reading I've done on different religions and spiritual systems - most stress that spiritual enlightenment (a reliance on the divine) always comes with a sacrifice of the worldy (a reliance on the physical).

Any reliance on the physical hinders you from seeking a greater reliance on the divine. In Buddhism this is viewed (I believe) as an attachment to the world which prevents you from attaining a detached or free state and therefore keeps you rooted in suffering. In Christianity you can't rely on God to help you meet your needs if you are trusting in material things or other people to do that instead. God will just let you try it that way until they fail and then you get an opportunity to try a spiritual solution instead.

As an example - I could seek greater serenity and peace through prayer or meditation, or I could go smoke a lot of tangiers. If I chose to smoke, then I really can't connect with the divine to solve that problem for me since I have already chosen to rely on the physical instead. It just doesn't seem to work.

I know for me any addiction or chemical use is a reliance on the physical to obtain some kind of peace, or temporary sense of well being, when in spiritual terms I should be seeking those through a greater understanding of and reliance on the divine and greater acceptance.

And I still smoke every day.

No spiritual journey, or pilgrim, is ever going to be perfect. I'm very far from that.

[Conradical]

[quote name='thecoalition' date='22 June 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1277231242' post='472480']
fyi most religious/spiritual ceremonies utilize mind altering substances in them, so the real question is does your relationship with god get affected when you do not add in said substances.
[/quote]

Most western religions and institutions look down on the use of such methods. I wholly disagree with that stance, but I wanted to see how you guys felt. I love this forum as it is a very diverse crowd in terms of geographic locations as well as preferences on smoking methods (Shisha related only) and religious views

[Dr. B]

I've always advocated the difference between relying on material goods and taking them for granted. Assuming the consciousness (or soul, if you will) lives beyond the body for a finite time to experience an uninhibited unity with the universe, then of what purpose is the body? Without deeper understanding one would imagine that "freeing the mind" in the most ultimate fashion (suicide) is thus the best route to enlightenment. However, die today and you are no more prepared for the experience that is harmony with the universe than you could be tomorrow. This is in where the distinction between use and reliance comes. I understand I will never be in touch... totally in this material world, but I know too that it would be foolish to waste my limited time in the afterlife discovering things that could be learned even with the restraints of the physical world: And thus I use my body to prepare my mind to enjoy the exposure to ultimate understanding, uninhibited. This learning quest is where the use of mind-altering drugs gain popularity. However, I am of the opinion that, while the drugs may act as a catalyst to the mindset appropriate to overcome material boundaries, they too inhibit the ability to comprehend what is found in these spiritual depths. They may take you to (limited) depths, but they do so without inertia enough to keep digging, so to speak. I have used tobacco in pre-meditation ceremonies, but the actual meditation outlasts the effects of the drug.

[mustafabey]

Buddha recommended the middle road, that means balance.Unless you are willing to become a renunciate or enter a monastery, its very hard to lead a spiritual life in the midst of all this noise.. The middle road works well, you're not going to find enlightenment, but you may find peace. Buddha worked this out in his life, born with a silver spoon, son of king, he gave up the world and sought to renounce all comforts and subjected his body to much denial and pain, That wasn't the answer either. He realized he needed to eat, etc, live in the world. Its a great oversimplification, but simplicity is part of it. Zen is wonderful, if you can make the commitment, i rather feel zen is not a part time job.
In India, tradition has you go thru four phases of life, the last of which is a retirement that stresses spirituality.It gives you time to grow, time to learn, time to enjoy, time for family, but in the last part of your life you enter the period of the spiritual quest.

[Conradical]

[quote name='mustafabey' date='23 June 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1277327286' post='472625']
Buddha recommended the middle road, that means balance.Unless you are willing to become a renunciate or enter a monastery, its very hard to lead a spiritual life in the midst of all this noise.. The middle road works well, you're not going to find enlightenment, but you may find peace. Buddha worked this out in his life, born with a silver spoon, son of king, he gave up the world and sought to renounce all comforts and subjected his body to much denial and pain, That wasn't the answer either. He realized he needed to eat, etc, live in the world. Its a great oversimplification, but simplicity is part of it. Zen is wonderful, if you can make the commitment, i rather feel zen is not a part time job.
In India, tradition has you go thru four phases of life, the last of which is a retirement that stresses spirituality.It gives you time to grow, time to learn, time to enjoy, time for family, but in the last part of your life you enter the period of the spiritual quest.
[/quote]

I definitely agree. At this stage in my life, especially working in sales I have more stresses in my life. However the time made for meditation and exploration of my path has been fufilling. I do enjoy smoking a heavier shisha, like Tangiers, as it does help me relax and focus on the topics of discussion whether of the life of the Buddha or the balance of life in the world.

[Dr. B]

Suffice it to say that a nice bowl and a good conversation is relaxing, meditative, and enlightening; but I would not consider it the proper means for super-physical discovery. That being said, there's still quite a bit to learn about the material world. Edited June 24, 2010 by Dr. B

[Tyler]

[quote name='thecoalition' date='22 June 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1277231242' post='472480']
fyi most religious/spiritual ceremonies utilize mind altering substances in them, so the real question is does your relationship with god get affected when you do not add in said substances.
[/quote]


MOST do not, just a few of them from only a small handful of religious traditions (assuming you clump native and african indiginous together as 2).

But honestly hookah in my opinion is useful in meditation because it forces you to focus on your breathing, and if you do it in the correct mindset and with a specific goal then you can gain a good steady rhythm for breathing while smoking and meditating.

[mitchard]

[quote name='Tyler' date='25 June 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1277521314' post='472886']
[quote name='thecoalition' date='22 June 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1277231242' post='472480']
fyi most religious/spiritual ceremonies utilize mind altering substances in them, so the real question is does your relationship with god get affected when you do not add in said substances.
[/quote]
MOST do not, just a few of them from only a small handful of religious traditions (assuming you clump native and african indiginous together as 2).
[/quote]
Most don't in today's world, but even Christianity has deep roots with ritualistic inebriation though some intense mind altering substances. I don't want to talk about it too much, because I would be crossing into some stuff that is banned here, though its completely legal in the US. I'd be happy to share some info/links via pm though if anyone is interested.

[mustafabey]

Certain plants have properties that increase our conscienceness. They can be used as spiritual tools, or they can used for pleasure. There is a big difference. I am familiar,one a spiritual and pleasure level with Lophophora Williamsii, the peyote cactus. There's a big difference between eating a few buttons and getting high and entering a tipi and partake of peyote in a guided and ritual manner. The Native American church considers it a sacrament, like the bread and wine of communion. Yet, once what peyote teaches is learned, it is no longer necessary to take the drug. The world we see, we see as humans, and we see only a small part. I think, when i watch my dogs, how the see "reality"they see with their eyes but also with ears and nose. I see a tree(or the proverbial fire hydrant, for you urban types) But to the dog, its a list of calling cards, Fido was here and this is HIS tree, beware, Rover was here, and fuck you too, fifi was here and she's in season. Sharks see the world thru electrical impulses, dolphins and bats thru sonar, some sense heat and see the world like an infrared camera. All these visions of reality are a valid portrayal of "reality" but the are pieces, one must learn to see the whole thing, the unity of it all(which some people may call god) Peyote, helps you to see that there are other levels of experience in this web of endless and infinite possiblity, you get a glimpse f the unity of creation. Is a tree green, well sure, of course it is, but is many other colors. we can't hear trees speak, but they do, they move and can sense where the most sun is. These Appalchian hills i live in 800 million years old move, not that i can discern but they move. Do rocks have souls, of course they do, they are part of this wonderful dance we participate in daily and forever.

[liquidglass]

[quote name='Conradical' date='23 June 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1277327881' post='472629']
[quote name='mustafabey' date='23 June 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1277327286' post='472625']
Buddha recommended the middle road, that means balance.Unless you are willing to become a renunciate or enter a monastery, its very hard to lead a spiritual life in the midst of all this noise.. The middle road works well, you're not going to find enlightenment, but you may find peace. Buddha worked this out in his life, born with a silver spoon, son of king, he gave up the world and sought to renounce all comforts and subjected his body to much denial and pain, That wasn't the answer either. He realized he needed to eat, etc, live in the world. Its a great oversimplification, but simplicity is part of it. Zen is wonderful, if you can make the commitment, i rather feel zen is not a part time job.
In India, tradition has you go thru four phases of life, the last of which is a retirement that stresses spirituality.It gives you time to grow, time to learn, time to enjoy, time for family, but in the last part of your life you enter the period of the spiritual quest.
[/quote]

I definitely agree. At this stage in my life, especially working in sales I have more stresses in my life. However the time made for meditation and exploration of my path has been fufilling. I do enjoy smoking a heavier shisha, like Tangiers, as it does help me relax and focus on the topics of discussion whether of the life of the Buddha or the balance of life in the world.
[/quote]

Good to see you posting on here bud!

Obviously I know you personally but I'll post here to add to the conversation.

Anything in success teachings and spiritualism teach that you do change through different periods of your life. It is very rare, even unheard of (in my experience) of a young person below 24 or so to attain great spiritual fulfillment or any form of peace or enlightenment. That, as it's taught, is because of maturity commonly and the need to experience the world to grow. Someone cannot grow until their world view has been challenged. Much like I know yours has and that causes you to seek fulfillment, you were just smart enough to take action on it unlike so many others.

As far as mind altering substances. The definition in our modern world has to be expanded to fully encompass what could affect your mindset. Hookah, TV, radio, people around you, advertisements, work, electrical interferences (if anyone has ever truly gotten away from all electronics for a while you know you just feel different, not because you can't communicate but as a result of not having it surround you) I'm sure you felt this on your last trip at some point.


Peace and enlightenment can be attained even in a modern world. It's just more difficult as we have subconciously put "needs" into our lives for things we don't actually need. Honestly I personally think hookah can help in this endeavor. Similar to a rock garden, it causes you to concentrate on a routine, a custom, a routine with your hands. It forces you to concentrate, which is in my experience the epitome of meditation. Because from what I've studied (which is less than you) lol it is not about achieving an emptiness of sorts but it is about concentrating on one thing. So correct me if I'm wrong it.


Also, we need to hang out this week since I'm back in town. text me sometime when you're free this week.