The Politics Of The Online Hookah Community...

[Tyler]

Well, after having a conversation about it with a few of the people who stuck around through everything I felt the need to make a post about this. When I origonally came onto hookah forum I loved that it was such a huge community that got along without any major issues or divisions save just a very few people/sites. Well, after a while two other forums came along and some stupid shit happened and it seems that people have chosen sides. Now instead of having one great resource and one big community we have three communities. Yes I know that a lot of the members are active on all three forums and whatnot but the fact of the matter is, this place isn't the same anymore. There are only a handful of regular people anymore, all the posts are becoming overly repetitive and members are becoming banned for stupid reasons more and more while others who should be banned are getting away without even being noticed. The politics that used to be absent from these forums are now running the community and it's getting pretty old. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way and I figured it is time for someone to step up and say it publically rather than keep it in private conversations.

[Dr. B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCGvONbVCa0

[mushrat]

um. ok. so lets see what we can do about it.

Care to elaborate on who was banned who shouldn't have been and why?
who needs to be banned (you can pm me this one if you want) .
and what we can do about the other communities?

Look back and you will see what we talk about now is what we have always talked about, you have just been around long enough to notice the repetition. Heck go back 4 years and you'll see the same topics with different names really. Lets face it, there are only so many things you can talk about with a hookah. Design, recommendations of products, problem solving, and smoking stories. I've always liked the fact we don't have all the bs fluff you see on other sites. Here we talk about hookahs with sections for the other stuff. I still like to think its the more mature of the forums if you will where its the quality of our posts, not the quantity that matters.
Keep in mind one of the other forums was started because we kicked a bunch of people causing trouble around here long ago and they wanted a forum where they could do what they wanted. It has since matured as well and is pretty much a clone of this site but thats how it started. The other was started so the owner could get free stuff from companies. It has changed hands but the quality hasn't changed much. and finally, the newest addition to the forums was started to give the vendor who started it a safe place to advertise in the event the other forums decided not to let him on. A legitimate issue in his case not because there is anything wrong with him as a vendor but because thats the politics of this type of venue.
Im not taking this personally but I am willing to talk about what you see as problems and what you suggest as corrections. Because i feel that if you are going to complain about something, you should have a solution to suggest.

[matias]

[quote name='mushrat' date='30 June 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1277894811' post='473389']
um. ok. so lets see what we can do about it.

Care to elaborate on who was banned who shouldn't have been and why?
who needs to be banned (you can pm me this one if you want) .
and what we can do about the other communities?

Look back and you will see what we talk about now is what we have always talked about, you have just been around long enough to notice the repetition. Heck go back 4 years and you'll see the same topics with different names really. Lets face it, there are only so many things you can talk about with a hookah. Design, recommendations of products, problem solving, and smoking stories. I've always liked the fact we don't have all the bs fluff you see on other sites. Here we talk about hookahs with sections for the other stuff. I still like to think its the more mature of the forums if you will where its the quality of our posts, not the quantity that matters.
Keep in mind one of the other forums was started because we kicked a bunch of people causing trouble around here long ago and they wanted a forum where they could do what they wanted. It has since matured as well and is pretty much a clone of this site but thats how it started. The other was started so the owner could get free stuff from companies. It has changed hands but the quality hasn't changed much. and finally, the newest addition to the forums was started to give the vendor who started it a safe place to advertise in the event the other forums decided not to let him on. A legitimate issue in his case not because there is anything wrong with him as a vendor but because thats the politics of this type of venue.
Im not taking this personally but I am willing to talk about what you see as problems and what you suggest as corrections. Because i feel that if you are going to complain about something, you should have a solution to suggest.
[/quote]

I really hate it when someone gives an answer 10 times better than what I could say, has 10 times the legitimacy I have to answer, covers all the important points and makes it impossible for me to dissent in any way. Please don't do it again Mushrat

[mushrat]

sorry. won't happen again.
But seriously, do we have things we need to attend to? I really am open to suggestions.

[delSol_si]

[quote name='mushrat' date='30 June 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1277914878' post='473416']
sorry. won't happen again.
But seriously, do we have things we need to attend to? I really am open to suggestions.
[/quote]

word...I'm open too. If anyone has any issues they don't want to bring up publicly, please feel free to PM me. I will hold you anonymous if you choose that route (as long as you aren't planning to do anything against the law). I'm sure mushrat feels the same way I do.

but yes, I would have to agree, forum drama is getting old...but a lot of it has to do with the old saying "business is business" which is also why I love this forum...its not about business. If I knew people wouldn't cheat, I would be willing to bet a 250g that at least 50% of the people on here couldn't even name the owner of this forum without looking it up. And hell, I bet at least 25% couldn't name it WITH trying to look it up.

[Tyler]

I don't think you're taking the thread the way it was meant to be taken. There is no "solution" because as you've pointed out, the other forums have their reasons for existing, we merely just don't like the fact that the community that was once much bigger and centrally located is now spread out among other sites. The only "solution" is for things like certain forums to not ban certain vendors from advertising and maybe even take it a step forward and loosen the regulations on vendors' advertising (from what I understand is a reason why a member got banned). Or maybe some people should learn to take a joke instead of saying it doesn't bother him but then whine and complain about it on another forum (at least we all think it was a joke). Yes I know the topics have been repeating for a long time and will always be repeating but for the sake of the community, it's rather...don't know the word...to see the exact same question answered three different ways when a simple search could have found the answer here. This isn't meant to be a personal thing, it's not meant to upset anyone, it's just me taking what I've been hearing from a lot of the regular members of this forum, some of the others, and finally putting it together. Yes, I know this is one of those things that really can't work itself out but it doesn't stop us from bitching about it wishing this forum was like it was a year ago. Obviously there are reasons why many members still use this forum as their "base" forum, and I would venture to guess it's a combination of knowledge base, fairness, and just the people in general.

[joytron]

I think this place good definitely loosen up a little as far as the rules go. Also i think the members should vote in guest mod. I dont care about topics being brought up over and over and dont mind answering questions like your favorite flavor. I imagine this place would be entirely dead if only new threads could be created. I enjoy this place because there are some great people on here, and though many have left, I am really impressed with the new batch.

[Tyler]

[quote name='joytron' date='30 June 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1277924183' post='473442']
I think this place good definitely loosen up a little as far as the rules go. Also i think the members should vote in guest mod. I dont care about topics being brought up over and over and dont mind answering questions like your favorite flavor. I imagine this place would be entirely dead if only new threads could be created. I enjoy this place because there are some great people on here, and though many have left, I am really impressed with the new batch.
[/quote]


I think that's the saving grace of the situation, the influx of new people coming around and becoming strong present members. The growing popularity of hookah in the younger generations is definately helping.

[Venger]

I am personally glad the forum is set up the way it is. It is human nature to push the boundaries. If you relax the rules then someone will try to push that line, so what then we move the line again? finally you have chaos and nobody will want to be here. There are many sections here to discuss a number of topics first and for most hookah, but others for serious talk,blowing off steam,and even sections for older folks like me and the ladies in the group. I am grateful we are not pummeled with vendors trying to sell stuff to me. If I want to buy something I will seek them out.
People like John and Eric and some other vendors share with us their hookah experiences and have proven its more about the hobby than making a buck. Thank you guys for that. Well that is just my two cents. Thank you moderators for keeping order and getting nothing in return for it. Thank you members for sharing your experiance and knowledge.Thank you.
Ray

[ezxen]

The only thing i can see with this forum other than the splits is those other places are new there fresh and like Mush said go back 4 years there the same topics same can be said for those other site just that there new. In 4 years they will still have the same cycle of topics . THe only thing that i can really see is i think Tiny chat killed the forum chat its not the way it used to be. There use to be tons of people there but now seems there either in tiny chat or not on forum chat at all.
Just my 2 cents also dose warm water really give better flavor?

[Chreees]

I like the forum the way it is. I don't really think anything should be changed.

The people who were banned because they broke the rules. The rules are very simple and clearly stated. Break them, and there are consequences. Like anything else in life. If you let one person get away with something, then everyone expects to get away with something as well. Gotta enforce the rules to keep order so that the forum is the best it can be. I do not feel the rules are too strict at all. Seems very easy to follow. And having been a guest mod, I can tell you a lot of the time people will just get warnings for banworthy offenses. The moderating team here is way more relaxed than people realize I think. Be grateful for it. Other forums have such strict moderation I have no idea how people can stick around.

As for relaxing up on advertising for vendors, hell to the no. Mushrat has instilled a very good system here. For a vendor to attain his own thread, he/she first must prove they are willing to participate in posting on the forums. Too much to ask for? I don't think so. Then after they prove they are willing to participate and actually contribute to the forum, Mush gives them their own vendor thread in which to do their advertising. This keeps their advertising in one spot so where we don't have all the vendors telling us to buy from them when someone asks "What product should I buy?" Ever wonder why some vendor threads have disappeared? They stopped participating in the forum. I think it's only fair that participation be required for them to advertise. Advertising shouldn't be free for them to do without giving back somehow.

As for the other forums, they become so popular so quickly because they are the "new shiny toy" and offer contests, bigger discounts for certain vendors, etc. HookahForum, however, I believe, has the most knowledge and best people to talk to about anything hookah. Like Mush said, quality over quantity. Other forums may have more members, but I choose HF to be on the most for the friendly people that I've become great friends with and also the knowledge members have to offer here. I am on other forums, but it seems to be just about contests, vid reviews (oh wait, I got banned on that forum for some reason, even though I never posted but maybe once or twice), and doing things to attain higher numbers of members. I prefer the quality.

Ezxen, as the guy who made the new Tinychat and also someone who gets on there pretty regularly, I can assure you it is not what killed the forum's chat. There's only a handful of us that get on TC just for the webcam feature. The forum chat died simply because not as many members are getting on anymore. Once more people log on, you'll see more people get on forum chat. I've actually noticed an increase of activity on there lately.

As for the same topics being brought up in new threads, that's just how it is. Not like hookah is a very complex subject or anything.

[ezxen]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' date='30 June 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1277933480' post='473452']
I like the forum the way it is. I don't really think anything should be changed.

The people who were banned because they broke the rules. The rules are very simple and clearly stated. Break them, and there are consequences. Like anything else in life. If you let one person get away with something, then everyone expects to get away with something as well. Gotta enforce the rules to keep order so that the forum is the best it can be. I do not feel the rules are too strict at all. Seems very easy to follow. And having been a guest mod, I can tell you a lot of the time people will just get warnings for banworthy offenses. The moderating team here is way more relaxed than people realize I think. Be grateful for it. Other forums have such strict moderation I have no idea how people can stick around.

As for relaxing up on advertising for vendors, hell to the no. Mushrat has instilled a very good system here. For a vendor to attain his own thread, he/she first must prove they are willing to participate in posting on the forums. Too much to ask for? I don't think so. Then after they prove they are willing to participate and actually contribute to the forum, Mush gives them their own vendor thread in which to do their advertising. This keeps their advertising in one spot so where we don't have all the vendors telling us to buy from them when someone asks "What product should I buy?" Ever wonder why some vendor threads have disappeared? They stopped participating in the forum. I think it's only fair that participation be required for them to advertise. Advertising shouldn't be free for them to do without giving back somehow.

As for the other forums, they become so popular so quickly because they are the "new shiny toy" and offer contests, bigger discounts for certain vendors, etc. HookahForum, however, I believe, has the most knowledge and best people to talk to about anything hookah. Like Mush said, quality over quantity. Other forums may have more members, but I choose HF to be on the most for the friendly people that I've become great friends with and also the knowledge members have to offer here. I am on other forums, but it seems to be just about contests, vid reviews (oh wait, I got banned on that forum for some reason, even though I never posted but maybe once or twice), and doing things to attain higher numbers of members. I prefer the quality.

Ezxen, as the guy who made the new Tinychat and also someone who gets on there pretty regularly, I can assure you it is not what killed the forum's chat. There's only a handful of us that get on TC just for the webcam feature. The forum chat died simply because not as many members are getting on anymore. Once more people log on, you'll see more people get on forum chat. I've actually noticed an increase of activity on there lately.

As for the same topics being brought up in new threads, that's just how it is. Not like hookah is a very complex subject or anything.


[/quote]
I will give tiny chat that . The web cam is really nice ive jumped on before and web camed smoked with other members . Also afree with your post allot about the ofter forums just being shiny new toys . And it seems that allot of members went to another forum because they are loyal customers of said venders . The reason i stay with hookah forum its the place where i refined my smoking techniques . As said the quality here is about the rest . I started smoking with freinds and then was introduced to neal and learned from him then came here over a year ago after two years of smoking and this placed changed the way i did things .

[Chreees]

[quote name='ezxen' date='30 June 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1277934459' post='473455']
I will give tiny chat that . The web cam is really nice ive jumped on before and web camed smoked with other members . Also afree with your post allot about the ofter forums just being shiny new toys . And it seems that allot of members went to another forum because they are loyal customers of said venders . The reason i stay with hookah forum its the place where i refined my smoking techniques . As said the quality here is about the rest . I started smoking with freinds and then was introduced to neal and learned from him then came here over a year ago after two years of smoking and this placed changed the way i did things .
[/quote]

Oh yeah, you're totally right about the customer loyalty thing... No doubt about that. Well I'm glad you came here and learned things right! This was the first forum I ever came to, so I guess I learned things right the first time! Haha...

[ezxen]

Yeah i spent nearly a week when i found this place just reading and reading soaking things up

[mushrat]

um..so the biggest issue seems to be a member who got banned because he was also a vendor/rep and didn't follow all the vendor rules right? Please understand, the other forums charge these vendors to advertise on their site. Its how they pay for the bandwdith and hosting. Here, the owner is willing to put up the not small cost of the forum and doesn't need the advertising revenue. Vendors are in it for the sales, thats how business works. They pay to make their existence known to people who visit the forum so they can make money from sales to these people. Why should they be able to make money off this forum without giving something back? Since they don't have to spend money to make money here we require them to contribute to the forum in a way that DOES support the forum. That way is through posting about their own experiences with hookahs. This is how they can support the health of the forum and in return they get the exposure they want to sell more stuff and make money.

Some vendors have had threads, decided posting a few times a week was too much trouble for the opportunity to make money from us, and had their threads removed. No vendor has ever been banned from posting simply because they stopped contributing and had their official thread removed. Vendors HAVE been banned for continuing to try to push their products in other threads and discussions or for breaking other rules about shill accounts and such. We have also had vendors who have decided later to become active again and they have gotten new threads as a result. But just because a vendor was active at one time does not allow them to have a thread now. If they can't be bothered to participate, we can't be bothered to let them make money from us for nothing.

If you would like more information on a particular vendor Tyler, just pm me who it is and I can look and see what else they may have done.

A lot of old members have gone away because they have stopped smoking or just gotten too busy with life to log back in. We've had a number of older members actually come back recently. Its the cycle of any hobby forum.

If ive failed to address any issues please feel free to bring them up. I've never banned anyone for disagreeing with me..and that you can check on.

[mushrat]

oh, about the guest mods, we do ask for suggestions on occasion and are always willing to listen if someone wants to suggest a member. But keep in mind there is a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes and just because someone is popular or posts a lot, doesn't mean they are necessarily going to make a good moderator. The flip side of that is sometimes someone who isn't real flashy but contributes a lot none the less we feel would make a good mod. As a general rule, we look for people who have been here atleast a year.

and just because you have been warned or even suspended in the past doesn't necessarily disqualify you as a mod. We all screw up, its what you learned from the experience thats the important part.

And you would be amazed at how often we get "thanks but no thanks" from some very active members when asked about being guest mods.

[agunn1231]

THis is the first hookah forum i came to. I have glanced at the other ones and they seem to....suck....i guess is a good way of putting it. I know i'm new on here and such, but there seems to be a wealth of knowledge on here, and I feel that the people on here don't judge. I am also glad that there isn't much if any BS on here as far as trolling and stuff goes. The set up is just a lot more convienent than other places, and I have learned a lot here, I also feel that the folks on here are very polite and helpful. Overall the set up seems pretty good.[img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/good2.gif[/img]

[Dr. B]

I gave it some thought and can really only think of a few instances of dissatisfaction. I don't even know if the qualms are worth vocalizing or if this is the [public] place to do it, but one comes to mind. Maybe it's because I was partial to his contributions, but I don't fully understand the banning of Gaia. In explicit terms: Yes, he was inhospitable towards Destructo (who was eventually banned for the same reason); but really he was just being defensive. I was part of the ultimate conversation (why destructo thought I was amiable is beyond me) and didn't see anything much past defense towards an obvious aggressor. Granted, I don't know what went down in the ensuing argument between Mush and Gaia, nor the consultation between Sonthert and Mush, but it doesn't seem as if the aggressiveness of Destructo was properly accounted for. They say Gaia had a history of aggression, but if that were not a ban-able offense by itself, it seems as if he was baited. However, Gaia could have been the bigger man; this and its implications on his ban I understand. Exceptions to rules do happen around here, I was just sad not to see one made - perhaps because the serious discussion forum degenerated into an arena for political bigotry - On the topic of which, I do appreciate the recent warnings.

Don't make an enemy of me on account of this. It's not my intention to stir any sleeping dogs or point the finger or convince anybody that I actually give a damn. My real intention was to give some validity to Tyler's post in the wake of seemingly uninterrupted opposition, since I know he cared for Gaia's contributions as well. Despite that, none of the wiser here know that this is a democracy. Though some champion a creative approach to law enforcement whilst others are structuralist, beyond the opinion of the powers that be (which I have no discretion about saying I trust, largely) we are not so foolish as to believe that there are proper channels via which to affect change. There is no institution. Consequently, threads like this emerge in which we tread lightly so that any cautious attempt at affecting change or merely illuminating dissatisfaction may go heard. However, should the powers that be decide this is in fact not the proper avenue for such expression, especially pertaining to the content of my own post, censorship may be necessary; though I ask it be accompanied by a gentle notification.

P.S.
If it isn't a big deal to discuss it in detail, I am curious to know what exactly happened with Tiza Nabi.

[Tyler]

The biggest issue here is the fact that in my, and others' opinions, the splitting of the communities sucks ass. Nothing anyone can do about it and we all understand why the other forums exist, but the side issues are just things we've all noticed. I didn't want to mention any names particularly because that's not the type of person I am and I didn't want to stir up any troubles. I personally have never had any issues with anyone other than Destructo. Canon and I had our disagreements for a while but that's been over with for a long time now -- other than that I'm pretty cool with everyone as far as I'm concerned. What I brought up in our most recent conversation was the bannings of Gaia and TiziNabi.

But basically B hit the nail on the head for what I was wanting to say but didn't want to jump the gun in being too straight forward on a public thread. But all of this spawned from the group of regulars who usually hang out on tinychat talking about how the forum used to be a lot more active and there wasn't all these divisions between the community.

That is all. I didn't want to ruffle feathers I just wanted to post the thoughts of myself and others.

[mushrat]

ok..first off allow me to say that my feathers are firmly in place and no one is on a shit list for speaking their mind. As much as I love this place, it is just a forum and we all have REAL things enough to worry about in life I'm sure.

Gaia was suspended at one point along with destructo if I have this right. Instead of serving out his time like destructo he created a second account to circumvent his suspension called gaia.cove. THATS what got him banned. Simple and straight forward.

Tiza was a bit more complex. The smoking-hookah thread was originally removed because the company sent in a shill. I asked him to look into it and he never got back to me on what was going on, so the thread stayed gone. There were some heated messeges back and forth between me and Tiza. I believe these were the last few.

[quote] TizaNabi


Sent 06 April 2010 - 11:55 AM
"If you don't like the way this place does things", that seems like putting words in my mouth. I was pointing out a feature mentioned I was in no rush, and said even that I'd settle for Palestine if need be.I din't get angry or ornery.
I only go to this forum, and I write that often in the Smoking-Hookah .com 2 blogs which I write for them.
Fine, I can accept the results. We have a saying in Hebrew "you attract more flies with honey than viniger. When presented with flies, as you must as administrator from time to time, using honey helps. I am wary of people who throw around authority. I knew the like for 6 years in the army and in my 57 years have found that many people prefer power to riches. Including those on their own little hill.
But thanks for answering my question. It was not a protest, I plan to keep it there.
I do know what self hating Jews are and they smell, baad.
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mushrat

Sent 06 April 2010 - 03:55 PM
if you will notice, that was not in reply to you request for the flag. it was sent beforeyour question. it was in refrence to you your comments in your profile about how we allow some people to talk about products and not you.

I trust you arent calling ME aself hating jew.
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TizaNabi Icon

Sent 06 April 2010 - 06:51 PM
Isn't it a democratic right to add my opinion? It had nothing to do with what I cannot do, where did I say that? Get a sense of humor. I've been here since almost the beginning, years back as "sheeshabum" but I lost the email adress from lack of use.

I remember your major hassles with key people who loved this forum. You make some good rules and not a few totalitarian ones which you hold too like G-D's word.

Hookah Domain forum had you to thank for so many former people leaving here and starting a friendly hookah forum, maybe with less expertise, but a nice place to come to.

I have not visited in a while came back today and thank you for letting me to decide I don't want anything to do with mediocre dictators and kings of the dung hill.Do you have a flag special for your dunghill.

Its been nice, but goodbye.
[/quote]

I can post farther back but I think you get the idea. He didn't agree with how the place was being run because we took away the vendor thread and it went downhill from there until HE decided he was done with the forum. I just made it official.

More infor needed?

[mushrat]

There has been a request to remove the thread. I think not. Apparently his is an issue with a number of members and I want to make sure those members concerns are heard. I've been accused in the past of removing threads I don't agree with or that are critical of me or the forum and I certainly won't give more ammunition to those perceptions. Besides, I really am interested in what people think, what concerns they have, and am always willing to listen to concerns as long as they are worded in a civil manner. And remember...1st and foremost....its just a forum.

[Dr. B]

The Gaia thing... I understand his motivation but it wasn't wise to be so explicit in his desire for communication. If he had exhausted all the other channels prior to making the account I would sympathize more. I still maintain that he was a victim of circumstance in some sense, but that doesn't excuse his egregious efforts. Everybody has a responsibility to not make a shitty situation worse.

That's a side of Tiza I'd never seen. Once more, with the responsibility to save grace (or remain dignified) he ought to have stopped talking after detailing his association with the vendor. Though he left of his own volition, I am curious: Was there a concrete reason behind the ban or was he actually proven correct? Hell, I would be offended too if I had been the target of that remark, but if his association with the shill was fragile at best and his hostility was kept private, then what, beyond his attitude, gave merit to the decision to "make it official"?

This isn't about making trouble or learning to toe the line, it's just a morbid curiosity of sorts. However, they say curiosity killed the cat. I'm confident that I'm not yet too far gone to upset anybody, but if my perception is skewed or my modesty fails to keep me dignified beyond this thread, or I just need to keep my nose out of the damned business of everybody else then, again, feel free to express yourself. Though we stress that the content of this paragraph goes without saying, I see no harm in reiteration, lest we beat a dead horse.

I'm still kind of laughing about the self-hating Jew comment. I learned a lot from Tiza, but boy was he Orthodox. Edited July 1, 2010 by Dr. B

[delSol_si]

[quote name='mushrat' date='01 July 2010 - 05:53 AM' timestamp='1277981581' post='473547']
There has been a request to remove the thread. I think not. Apparently his is an issue with a number of members and I want to make sure those members concerns are heard. I've been accused in the past of removing threads I don't agree with or that are critical of me or the forum and I certainly won't give more ammunition to those perceptions. Besides, I really am interested in what people think, what concerns they have, and am always willing to listen to concerns as long as they are worded in a civil manner. And remember...1st and foremost....its just a forum.
[/quote]

Agreed, I think this thread was a great idea. I am all for improving the forum if possible. The forum traffic has been slow as hell for a really long time, it would be great to get it back up again. It is pretty bad when rssbot is among the top posters of the day. It is also pretty bad when I ONLY post in the moderator section one day and nothing else and can make it into the top posters of the day.

The only bans that I have been less than happy with that I can remember have been Gaia, BBKakes, and Tiza. After mush presented the convo he had, I understood why that happened. Gaia, he had a pretty long rap sheet, so I kinda figured that was coming sooner or later. I wish it hadn't been with destructo though, because in all honesty, I though destructo was a prick. I never touched the guy because I made it clear I didn't like the guy and I didn't want to look biased when it came to banning, so I let someone else take care of him. I think Gaia should have been able to come back until he made the second account. As far as BBkakes goes, I still am unsatisfied that he got banned, but thats the way it goes.

Also, I would like to point out that the outcome of someone breaking the rules can vary by situation and who is making the decision. Lately, I have been more lenient than I normally am and have just been handing out warnings. Usually if the member is new, I try to cut them a break, if them member has been here awhile and should know better, I am a little more harsh. If it is a small offense, I usually just give a warning, if it is a big one, then usually a ban. Spammers get an automatic ban though

[Tyler]

Well I sent Mush a PM explaining why I wanted the thread removed but I guess now is a better time than any to talk about such things. I love this forum, it's a great place to come for me to just chill out and have chats with some cool people, and even met a few in person and hung out with them. The world today is different than a few years ago, where you can have legit friendships on the internet and I feel like I have some really good friends that I've met here. Now granted, the main reason I and probably [almost] everyone came here was because it was some place to learn about hookah and like previously mentioned, this is definately the most quality source for information on anything you could ever want to know. I also like that when things such as Social Smoke releasing their own tobacco line happens, we're some of the first people to find out and we can sample/try it on a massive scale to find out how good/bad it is; that inofitself is a great resource to have. One thing I do like about this forum, and I think others can see it too, is that you're allowed to be almost two people on here. Myself, when I post in the non-hookah threads, I am a liberal-minded moderate Republican who studies religions and cultures and I have interests in things that others don't while others have interests in things I don't, but we can all be who we are without feeling personally attacked. I know I have learned a lot from others' postings in political threads and what not. At the same time, when it comes to hookah talk, I like that we don't care what your political outlook or religious views are if we're in normal conversation on such topics, we all respect each other's hookah related opinions/ideas/ect... (even though I constantly get made fun of for liking Starbuzz [img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/post-5619-1201289386.gif[/img] ) lol.

As far as forum moderation goes, I think it's gone pretty smoothly, obviously the non-mods don't always know the full story (such a Tizi, which is unfortonate) and we can only gather so much about what happened with situations we might not agree with, but when Mush posts conversations like that I can understand why something was done. All the mods seem pretty level headed and I know I personally try not to break any rules and even though I've been a member over a year there are some things that I'm not 100% on (such as mentioning sites/vendors in threads not in the official sections). I, like others have voiced, am also impressed with a lot of the newer more active members who bring fresh ideas and takes on things both hookah and non-hookah related topics.

My mentioning about changing the rules of vendors really spawned from what I thought the situation was with Tizi, without knowing the entire story and is really only an isolated case in that instance. Other than that, I like how things are handled. One thing that we might want to look into is maybe trying to get reps from some of the major brands to become more active on the forum. I know I personally loved it when Social Smoke was around a lot when they first relased their product, and how "another forum" has a Starbuzz rep represented to ask questions to. It was nice when Eric came around a lot, both as a member and as Tangiers' maker to ask questions directly to, but any more now I never see him on/active at HF.

So yeah, just to reiterate, this thread origonally was meant as nothing more than a "man I miss the old days" kind of thing before all the divisions of community, I didn't want it to digress into a under-the-scope look at moderation history/habbits or whatnot but if that's what it has become then I guess I'll embrace it