If...?

[brigita]

I just happened to see this somewhere and found it interesting. I'm not going to argue either way on this but you all can take it in whichever direction you please!



[img]http://forums.horsecity.com/style_images/horsecity/spacer.gif[/img]
If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how he inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?


If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?


If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia , would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?


If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current in their income taxes, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the 5th of May (Cinco de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?


If George W. Bush had misspelled the word "advice" would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as proof of what a dunce he is?


If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?


If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually get what happened on 9-11?


If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans , would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?



If George W. Bush had created the position of 32 Czars who report directly to
him, bypassing the House and Senate on much of what is happening in America ,
would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?


If George W Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken
more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?



If George W. Bush had referred to the 58 states that make up these United States, would you have thought him "geographically challenged"?


So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive? Can't think of anything? Don't worry. He's done all this in 10 months --

so you'll have three years and two months to come up with an answer.

[Chreees]

I've never even heard of Obama doing most of those things. Mind telling us where you found this? Sounds like Fox News to me...

[Tyler]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' date='04 July 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1278223151' post='473933']
I've never even heard of Obama doing most of those things. Mind telling us where you found this? Sounds like Fox News to me...
[/quote]


I've heard of most of them...on CNN lol

[Chreees]

[quote name='Tyler' date='04 July 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1278226422' post='473936']
[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' date='04 July 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1278223151' post='473933']
I've never even heard of Obama doing most of those things. Mind telling us where you found this? Sounds like Fox News to me...
[/quote]

I've heard of most of them...on CNN lol
[/quote]

Haha. See, I don't watch political news anymore. I think they're all corrupt greedy bastards.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' date='04 July 2010 - 03:02 AM' timestamp='1278226958' post='473937']


Haha. See, I don't watch political news anymore. I think they're all corrupt greedy bastards.
[/quote]
Amen!

[brigita]

I didn't find it on any news website, someone posted it on a forum and I have no clue where they got it.

[Lucy Ford]

poppycock, i say.

[joytron]

[color=#464646][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][size=2]Thanks for forwarding this to me. President Obama has made a few blunders during his first few months in office, but I understand that for a person who makes as many statements as he does, it is not surprising that he sometimes stumbles. I'd rather not respond to you in a tit for tat manner, but I think it is important to note that President Bush's 8 years in office were replete with mistakes and bad policies, all of which plunged our nation deeper into debt, turned allies away and laid the ground work for one of the most severe financial crises in history. That is why Americans overwhelmingly voted for change.[/size]

[size=2]Conservatives have derided the President of allegedly bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia. The White House says that it was not a bow, but whether it was or was not, how did you react when George Bush actually kissed the Saudi King? Check this out: [url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fpmc98x"]http://tinyurl.com/pmc98x[/url] Were you upset? Did you protest?[/size]

[size=2]You note that President Obama made a mistake when speaking Spanish. It appears that he was making a joke. Nevertheless, how did you react when President Bush addressed Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi in Spanish. You will note that Italians do not speak Spanish.[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dl1O9txBU9FE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1O9txBU9FE[/url][/size]

[size=2][url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2008%2F07%2F10%2Fscience%2Fearth%2F10notebook.html%3Fref%3Dworld"]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/science/earth/10notebook.html?ref=world[/url][/size]

[size=2]President Obama has made a few gaffes but during his 8 years in office, President Bush misspoke hundreds of time.[/size]

[size=2]Here is a compilation: [url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slate.com%2Fid%2F76886%2F"]http://www.slate.com/id/76886/[/url][/size]

[size=2]For example: "John Thune has got a common-sense vision for good forest policy. I look forward to working with him in the United Nations Senate to preserve these national heritages."[/size]

[size=2]Did you send out emails to your friends every time President Bush said something silly?[/size]

[size=2]You note that President Obama uses a teleprompter. I am sure you know that George Bush used a teleprompter. Oh yeah, Ronald Reagan also used a teleprompter. Check out the links:[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fmlqz7h"]http://tinyurl.com/mlqz7h[/url] and [url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fr43fxj"]http://tinyurl.com/r43fxj[/url][/size]

[size=2]Your email notes that more people were killed by floods in the Midwest than died as a result of Hurricane Katrina. I looked it up and it just is not true. Of the many storms in the Midwest in 2009, the highest death toll thus far is 36 confirmed deaths. [url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fprod.newsday.com%2Fflash-flood-warning-issued-for-louisville-area-1.1347443"]http://prod.newsday.com/flash-flood-warning-issued-for-louisville-area-1.1347443[/url]

In comparison, there were 1,836 confirmed deaths caused by Hurricane Katrina.
[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dhh.louisiana.gov%2Foffices%2Fpage.asp%3FID%3D192%26Detail%3D5248"]http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/page.asp?ID=192&Detail=5248[/url][/size]

[size=2][/size]

[size=2]President Obama inherited an economy in disarray and since taking office, has aimed to drastically revamp our nation's health care system and our crumbling infrastructure. I was curious to see how the national debt changed during the Bush years and according to PolitiFact.com, "When Bush took office; the national debt was $5.73 trillion. When he left, it was $10.7 trillion."[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politifact.com%2Ftruth-o-meter%2Fstatements%2F2009%2Fjan%2F22%2Frahm-emanuel%2F5-trillion-added-national-debt-under-bush%2F"]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/22/rahm-emanuel/5-trillion-added-national-debt-under-bush/[/url][/size]

[size=2]Did you know that billions of dollars were wasted during the Bush administration, particularly in massive contracts given out to private contractors that operate in Iraq and Afghanistan: According to one commission set up to investigate the use of private contractors, "billions of dollars of that amount ended up wasted due to poorly defined work orders, inadequate oversight and contractor inefficiencies. In one example, defense auditors challenged KBR after it billed the government for $100 million in costs for private security even though the contract prohibited the use of for-hire guards."[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fmilitary%2F2009-06-08-report-dod-spending_N.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2009-06-08-report-dod-spending_N.htm[/url][/size]

[size=2]I hope that we are always critical of those we elect, but I see that you are not being consistent in your criticism. Your complaints about President Obama are ironic, given the fact that President Bush did in fact make so many of the same mistakes and made them much more often. Have you heard that expression? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.[/size]

[size=2]Anyhow, I hope this email receives you in good health and I look forward to talking to you soon.[/size]

[right]–MMAN[/right][/size][/font][/color]

[joytron]

[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[/font]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"][color=#5D5D5D][font=tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=2]The previous message
[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200909170030"]http://mediamattersa...er/200909170030[/url]



This is from snopes
[url="http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=50927"]http://message.snope...ead.php?t=50927[/url][/size][/font][/color][/font]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[/font]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[/font]I think most of this has been debunked somewhere along the line, but here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b]snopes[/b] [url="http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=1048513#post1048513"][img]http://message.snopes.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img][/url][i]If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?[/i]If Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would he have apologized later?

Quote:If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?Okay...let me get this straight...Gordon Brown gave Obama a seven volume biography of Winston Churchill...a man who Obama has openly shown disdain towards in the past....and we're supposed to be offended that Obama offered DVD's in return? Oh, but wait. Brown gave Obama a pen holder too. I'd also like to see a cite that states that these DVD's were actually improperly formatted. From what I've gathered, Obama had the American Film Institute make the DVD's specifically for Brown. I mean...really....who comes up with this stuff?

Quote:If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?This is an outright lie. The iPod was loaded with video of Broadway musicals, American music, and footage of the Queen's 2007 visit....and it was specifically requested by the Queen.

Quote:If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?Actually, I believe Bush kissed the Saudi King's cheeks instead. And, as I recall, no one really made a big deal out of it.

Quote:If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the nonexistent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?Okay, let's examine the direct quote: "There is a lot of, I don't know what the term is in Austria, 'wheeling and dealilng'..."

I'm not sure who came up with this bold-faced lie either.

Quote:If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?Incidentally, I don't approve of Obama's selections either.

Quote:If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?It's hard to tell if this slip-up was intentional or not given his and the audience's reaction. But hey...at least he's trying to speak a foreign language. Bush couldn't even get English right.

Quote:If George W. Bush had misspelled the word advice would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as "proof" of what a dunce he is?Okay...so he misspelled "advice".

Quote:If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on "Earth Day", would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?In fairness...Obama did more than "plant a single tree" on that day.

Quote:If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually "get" what happened on 9-11?Obama did not approve of this, nor was he aware of it until after it happened. The fact is, someone is going to lose a job because of it.

Quote:If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?Well...actually...I think Bush really could have used a teleprompter since he was never really able to get through a speech on his own without one.

Quote:If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?I'm not 100% certain of what's being referenced here....but I was nothing but impressed with the way that the Obama administration handled the Red River flood crisis.

Quote:If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?Well, I don't really approve of appropriating billions of dollars of government funds to major companies either, but at least Obama held these companies to some form of accountibility.

Quote:If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?Well...Bush DID double the national debt....and I've yet to see Obama propose to do any such thing.

Quote:If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again 10 times within years, would you have approved?Whoah...so Obama is going to double the national debt ten times? So, if we are at $10 trillion now....that would put us at $10 quadrillion in debt. I have a hard time believing this.

Quote:If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?Huh?

Quote:If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved ?Wow...NYC plays are getting expensive, aren't they?[/font]

[joytron]

Sorry double post

[jezter6]

[quote name='joytron' date='04 July 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1278286200' post='473986']
[
Quote:If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?Well...Bush DID double the national debt....and I've yet to see Obama propose to do any such thing.

[/quote]

Wow. This is exactly why I love debating with Obama lovers.

Bush did deficit spending for most of his time in office. That is true.

Obama's LOWEST yearly deficit spending plan is more than the highest Bush year.

You do realize that between the bailouts approved under the Obama watch, and the Recovery act, etc, etc....that FIRST year of deficit spending is about equal to ALL 8 years of Bush deficit spending.

Obama year 1 = 8 years of Bush.


If you didn't "see" Obama spending money, then maybe you can take your Obama blinders off.

http://www.google.com/images?q=national+deficit+graph&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=isch:1&ei=ewoyTKGPCcOAlAe-xui_Cw&sa=N&start=20&ndsp=20

[mitchard]

Bush sucked, and now Obama sucks. The position is just filled with a corporate puppet every time now. It doesn't matter who gets in there.

[Rani]

You know, as long as they can keep you convinced the "other guy" is the anti-Christ, [u]they keep manipulating you and getting away with their personal agendas.[/u] By keeping us at each other's throat, they go quietly about their business convinced that we bought the snake oil that they're acting in our best interests. Aren't we all a little tire of being gullible?

The best you can hope for in any president is that he has some integrity and honesty. I think Obama has that but then since i don't personally know the man, I'm not going to make any over the top assumptions. We needed a change. We got one. Might work for us in the long run, might work against us. Only tine is going to resolve that issue. Even a history making deficit isn't a long term bad thing [u][b]if[/b][/u] the economy picks up and it is eventually reduced drastically - which has happened in the past and I'm pretty certain will happen at some point in the future just as life itself keeps cycling. During this administration? Don't know. Ask me in another three years. Or seven, because I think the GOP is going to be quite surprised by 2012 if the truth is according to every political analyst I've heard over the past couple years.

The average age of our House and Senate leaders are a full generation older than the median age of the American voting citizen. What does that tell you? Quit listening to the bastards.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='joytron' date='04 July 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1278286200' post='473986']
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[/font]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"][color="#5d5d5d"][font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"]The previous message
[url="http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200909170030"]http://mediamattersa...er/200909170030[/url]



This is from snopes
[url="http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=50927"]http://message.snope...ead.php?t=50927[/url][/size][/font][/color][/font]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[/font]
[font="verdana, geneva, lucida,"]
[/font]I think most of this has been debunked somewhere along the line, but here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by [b]snopes[/b] [url="http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=1048513#post1048513"][img]http://message.snopes.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img][/url][i]If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?[/i]If Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would he have apologized later?

Quote:If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?Okay...let me get this straight...Gordon Brown gave Obama a seven volume biography of Winston Churchill...a man who Obama has openly shown disdain towards in the past....and we're supposed to be offended that Obama offered DVD's in return? Oh, but wait. Brown gave Obama a pen holder too. I'd also like to see a cite that states that these DVD's were actually improperly formatted. From what I've gathered, Obama had the American Film Institute make the DVD's specifically for Brown. I mean...really....who comes up with this stuff?

Quote:If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?This is an outright lie. The iPod was loaded with video of Broadway musicals, American music, and footage of the Queen's 2007 visit....and it was specifically requested by the Queen.

Quote:If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?Actually, I believe Bush kissed the Saudi King's cheeks instead. And, as I recall, no one really made a big deal out of it.

Quote:If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the nonexistent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?Okay, let's examine the direct quote: "There is a lot of, I don't know what the term is in Austria, 'wheeling and dealilng'..."

I'm not sure who came up with this bold-faced lie either.

Quote:If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?Incidentally, I don't approve of Obama's selections either.

Quote:If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?It's hard to tell if this slip-up was intentional or not given his and the audience's reaction. But hey...at least he's trying to speak a foreign language. Bush couldn't even get English right.

Quote:If George W. Bush had misspelled the word advice would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as "proof" of what a dunce he is?Okay...so he misspelled "advice".

Quote:If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on "Earth Day", would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?In fairness...Obama did more than "plant a single tree" on that day.

Quote:If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually "get" what happened on 9-11?Obama did not approve of this, nor was he aware of it until after it happened. The fact is, someone is going to lose a job because of it.

Quote:If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?Well...actually...I think Bush really could have used a teleprompter since he was never really able to get through a speech on his own without one.

Quote:If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?I'm not 100% certain of what's being referenced here....but I was nothing but impressed with the way that the Obama administration handled the Red River flood crisis.

Quote:If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?Well, I don't really approve of appropriating billions of dollars of government funds to major companies either, but at least Obama held these companies to some form of accountibility.

Quote:If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?Well...Bush DID double the national debt....and I've yet to see Obama propose to do any such thing.

Quote:If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again 10 times within years, would you have approved?Whoah...so Obama is going to double the national debt ten times? So, if we are at $10 trillion now....that would put us at $10 quadrillion in debt. I have a hard time believing this.

Quote:If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?Huh?

Quote:If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved ?Wow...NYC plays are getting expensive, aren't they?[/font]
[/quote]


You call media maters a credible source?

Says allot about your bias on the topic.

Hell, even MSNBC called media matters out for their lib bias.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2007/11/15/4429164-calling-out-media-matters-bias
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23079

Hell, why didn't you just let obummer "debunk" it.


Oh, by the way, most of the stupid quotes from the knob-in-chief are all available over on youtube. But I guess that isn't him saying them. Must be a clone, or evil twin take your pick.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' date='05 July 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1278364428' post='474045']
You know, as long as they can keep you convinced the "other guy" is the anti-Christ, [u]they keep manipulating you and getting away with their personal agendas.[/u] By keeping us at each other's throat, they go quietly about their business convinced that we bought the snake oil that they're acting in our best interests. Aren't we all a little tire of being gullible?

You are so correct,Rani. The things that motivate a large portion of the American public are not earthshaking events or issues. They hinge on a certain amount of bigotry regarding African Americans(the thought of a Black president really gets the rednecks in my woods pretty hot) Hispanics{waiting to invade America and make the Anglo Saxons a minority), and the gays(the last group its still ok to bash). They hinge also on small but influential groups like evangelical Christians, gun rights people, etc. The Right wings political philosophy, if they lose an election is to make the oppositions ability to govern next to impossible. They did the same to Clinton. As long as the Neocons control the Republican party, we are in for more of this. Making money is their sole issue and none of them would qualify for the term patriot, that they love to wave around so much.
On the other hand,I voted for Obama and welcomed real change. We need a health policy, we need an energy policy,immigration policy, we need to end war in Afghanistan with some positive closure, we need to address a host of global issues like global warming, dwindling water resources(multinationals are buying aquifers in the third world), population growth, the growing gap between the few haves and vast majority of have nots, etc.
However, what has Obama given us?Hollow empty legislation with fancy titles. The Health bill does little( my costs have already risen), the stimulus money is running out and little has improved(I'd love to know how much was stolen) we have just passed a bill to regulate Wall st that again is hollow with no teeth. We can expect an immigration bill that does nothing but sound good and an energy bill that will reward big oil.
If Obama is a visionary, he is discovering that the system is so broken, that he cannot make an significant changes, even with his party in the majority(and bought and paid for by lobbyists). Or Obama is just yet another choice by a party, of a personality who might be popular, governing as a rubber stamp for private interests. Remember the great success the republicans had in the eighties when they hired a professional actor to take the role of POTUS.

[Cp44]

we are controlled by big brother

[acolorado]

I'm sure none of the statements and insinuations from the first post are true. As others have pointed out most have been debunked repeatedly - quite a few are outright fabrications, others are serious exaggerations, and others rely on the old political trick of trying to blame your party's mistakes and failures on the next guy in office (most obviously the claims about the deficit - most of our deficit is left over from Bush).

The real question is -

Why would Obama's opponents resort to arguments so easily debunked and so blatantly untrue if they have legitimate things to criticize him about?

Oh right - that question really answers itself .

[acolorado]

[quote name='jezter6' date='05 July 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1278348074' post='474024']
[quote name='joytron' date='04 July 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1278286200' post='473986']
[
Quote:If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?Well...Bush DID double the national debt....and I've yet to see Obama propose to do any such thing.

[/quote]

Wow. This is exactly why I love debating with Obama lovers.

Bush did deficit spending for most of his time in office. That is true.

Obama's LOWEST yearly deficit spending plan is more than the highest Bush year.

You do realize that between the bailouts approved under the Obama watch, and the Recovery act, etc, etc....that FIRST year of deficit spending is about equal to ALL 8 years of Bush deficit spending.

Obama year 1 = 8 years of Bush.


If you didn't "see" Obama spending money, then maybe you can take your Obama blinders off.

[url="http://www.google.com/images?q=national+deficit+graph&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=isch:1&ei=ewoyTKGPCcOAlAe-xui_Cw&sa=N&start=20&ndsp=20"]http://www.google.co...tart=20&ndsp=20[/url]
[/quote]

Most of the deficit is left over from Bush. Programs like the Bush tax cuts, Medicare plan D, and of course the two wars that were supposed to last in Dick Cheney's words six weeks.
[url="http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-bush-policies-deficits-2010-6"]My link[/url] - as you can see that deficit isn't Obama's - and shame on those who are trying to blame it on him! It's kind of like the guy who just gambled away the rent and car payment yelling at his wife for spending what's left to buy the baby diapers and milk.

I like the irony of your link - most of those charts clearly show how Bush entered office with a 260 Billion surplus and left it with a record deficit, and how that drove the national debt to historic highs. As I often remind "fiscal conservatives" - if you've done your homework and you're still voting Republican - you're not a fiscal conservative. If you really want us to carry a low deficit, just compare the Dem and Rep records using your own handy link.

Plus - the bailouts of GM, Fannie and Freddie, and most of Wall Street, as well as the stimulus were all planned by Henry Paulson, who you should know (you being an informed political debater) - was the Treasury Secretary for Bush. Yeah darnit - Obama didn't plan the bailouts, and the first half happened on Bush's watch with Bush's approval. Obama approved the second half of the stimulus and that was the right thing to do - quite a few economists have pointed out it kept the Great Recession from turning into the Second Great Depression.

Sad - but probably the only smart thing Bush did in his entire 8 years (the stimulus plan) is the one thing his supporters don't want to take credit for.

This is why I love debating with Bush lovers - almost none of their claims turn out to be true .

[Venger]

As I often remind "fiscal conservatives" - if you've done your homework and you're still voting Republican - you're not a fiscal conservative.

You are 100% correct on this and that is why I voted for Bob Barr the libertarian candidate. If we all voted for the person and not the party we could get out of this cycle and start making real change. You can say I am throwing my vote away for not choosing a lesser of two evils but I need to sleep at night knowing I chose with my head and heart and I didn't settle or compromise.
Ray

[TheScotsman]

trying to blame freddie and fannie on bush shows either a lack of understanding of just who was in control, and set their policies, or a severe case of bush derangement syndrome... maybe both. News flash for you-Bush is not president.

If obambi wants to show how in control of the deficit he is, and prove it was all bush's spending, why is he spending at a rate destined to double the deficit in such a short time? The dem run congress wants to deem & pass the whole budget, because they don't want to have their vote recorded before the mid-terms. That says allot.

Your argument that it's bush's fault is lame, old, and no longer holding water. What we have is an empty bank account, and one person bouncing the checks, then blaming the wife because she bounced the first one. Show me one thing the bumster decided to actually accept blame for? Even more, bush was a progressive, the bumster is a progressive. There is no difference between them beyond the fact the messiah is far less qualified for... well... anything.

At least gw never gave the head of NASA a mandate to reach out to the Muslim Nations, to make them feel good about themselves. That has to be a plus.

It seems anytime anything negative like the OP shows up about the saintly-anointed-one, some demotroll shows up, and starts blaming bush for anything they can. It was funny for a while.

[mustafabey]

The Scotsman said:"obambi,the bumster, the messiah,the saintly-anointed-one"

I don't understand the name calling here, unless you listen to far too much conservative talk radio. We get Limbaugh, Boortz and Hannity around here and they also use these very words and a few more. If we are having an adult discussion about American politics, then this childish name calling is out of order. We can agree or disagree on a man's record and decisions, but we don't have to stoop to name calling. The man IS the President of the United States! I know, you respect the office, not the man(thank you Neal Boortz). I recall, when the shoe was on the other foot during the Nixon years, those of us that even thought about critisizing the President were accused of lack of patriotism and called names like commie etc. This is one of things that disturbs me about the far right wing, they adjust the rules to suit themselves. I don't know much about you,sir, other than what I read here. Sometimes I agree with statements you make and sometimes I don't, but the name calling thing doesn't lend your editorial much credibility. Again, not refering to you, but when I listen to conservative talk radio hosts bash Obama with various names and epithets, I feel that really what they want to do is use the one epithet they feel he deserves and that would amount to very serious racial slur.

[demonix]

They both suck, I'd go more in depth but I'm too lazy and the Germany vs. Spain game is about to start.

[acolorado]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='07 July 2010 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1278517513' post='474237']
trying to blame freddie and fannie on bush shows either a lack of understanding of just who was in control, and set their policies, or a severe case of bush derangement syndrome... maybe both. News flash for you-Bush is not president.

If obambi wants to show how in control of the deficit he is, and prove it was all bush's spending, why is he spending at a rate destined to double the deficit in such a short time? The dem run congress wants to deem & pass the whole budget, because they don't want to have their vote recorded before the mid-terms. That says allot.

Your argument that it's bush's fault is lame, old, and no longer holding water. What we have is an empty bank account, and one person bouncing the checks, then blaming the wife because she bounced the first one. Show me one thing the bumster decided to actually accept blame for? Even more, bush was a progressive, the bumster is a progressive. There is no difference between them beyond the fact the messiah is far less qualified for... well... anything.

At least gw never gave the head of NASA a mandate to reach out to the Muslim Nations, to make them feel good about themselves. That has to be a plus.

It seems anytime anything negative like the OP shows up about the saintly-anointed-one, some demotroll shows up, and starts blaming bush for anything they can. It was funny for a while.
[/quote]

Grow up man.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' date='07 July 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1278522303' post='474249']
The Scotsman said:"obambi,the bumster, the messiah,the saintly-anointed-one"

I don't understand the name calling here, unless you listen to far too much conservative talk radio. We get Limbaugh, Boortz and Hannity around here and they also use these very words and a few more. If we are having an adult discussion about American politics, then this childish name calling is out of order. We can agree or disagree on a man's record and decisions, but we don't have to stoop to name calling. The man IS the President of the United States! I know, you respect the office, not the man(thank you Neal Boortz). I recall, when the shoe was on the other foot during the Nixon years, those of us that even thought about critisizing the President were accused of lack of patriotism and called names like commie etc. This is one of things that disturbs me about the far right wing, they adjust the rules to suit themselves. I don't know much about you,sir, other than what I read here. Sometimes I agree with statements you make and sometimes I don't, but the name calling thing doesn't lend your editorial much credibility. Again, not refering to you, but when I listen to conservative talk radio hosts bash Obama with various names and epithets, I feel that really what they want to do is use the one epithet they feel he deserves and that would amount to very serious racial slur.
[/quote]




Libs have called conservatives names for years-funny how they don't accept the behavior they have initiated. I saw bush portrayed as everything from hitler, to the villiage idiot. While the later may be pretty close to true, one would have to say the portrayal didn't respect the office, or the man. Now suddenly, since their guy is there, that is supposed to be different? that makes no sense to me at all. Libs said nothing when chavez shows up in our country then calls the president the devil, but some libs get bent out of shape at any regular citizen saying "obummer"? They must think he's the messiah, and should be free of "blasphemous names", eh? The same liberal-mentality that showed up at a friend's funeral, and protested the war by carrying downright nasty signs, and yelling slurs at his family, say I can't call PEBO "the messiah" Give me a break. That is the definition of "adjusting the rules" to suit themselves.

To the point... if the president can call me, and people with the same views "tea baggers", then the libs give him a standing ovation, but then I can call him "obummer" the self-righteous show up and beat their gums about how disrespectful it is. Which is more disrespectful, the President calling the citizens by a sexual slur, or the citizens criticizing the government? I can show you a constitution that says I have the right to criticize the government ( more [url="http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/overview.aspx"]here[/url]). What can you show me? No one has the holy right to call people names, and not expect a return of the favour, not even the president.

I mean the man IS the president of the USA, he should do better than calling Citizens names, wouldn't you think? What would make me want to act any more proper than the president of the USA?

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='07 July 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1278561155' post='474350']
[quote name='mustafabey' date='07 July 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1278522303' post='474249']
The Scotsman said:"obambi,the bumster, the messiah,the saintly-anointed-one"

I don't understand the name calling here, unless you listen to far too much conservative talk radio. We get Limbaugh, Boortz and Hannity around here and they also use these very words and a few more. If we are having an adult discussion about American politics, then this childish name calling is out of order. We can agree or disagree on a man's record and decisions, but we don't have to stoop to name calling. The man IS the President of the United States! I know, you respect the office, not the man(thank you Neal Boortz). I recall, when the shoe was on the other foot during the Nixon years, those of us that even thought about critisizing the President were accused of lack of patriotism and called names like commie etc. This is one of things that disturbs me about the far right wing, they adjust the rules to suit themselves. I don't know much about you,sir, other than what I read here. Sometimes I agree with statements you make and sometimes I don't, but the name calling thing doesn't lend your editorial much credibility. Again, not refering to you, but when I listen to conservative talk radio hosts bash Obama with various names and epithets, I feel that really what they want to do is use the one epithet they feel he deserves and that would amount to very serious racial slur.
[/quote]




Libs have called conservatives names for years-funny how they don't accept the behavior they have initiated. I saw bush portrayed as everything from hitler, to the villiage idiot. While the later may be pretty close to true, one would have to say the portrayal didn't respect the office, or the man. Now suddenly, since their guy is there, that is supposed to be different? that makes no sense to me at all. Libs said nothing when chavez shows up in our country then calls the president the devil, but some libs get bent out of shape at any regular citizen saying "obummer"? They must think he's the messiah, and should be free of "blasphemous names", eh? The same liberal-mentality that showed up at a friend's funeral, and protested the war by carrying downright nasty signs, and yelling slurs at his family, say I can't call PEBO "the messiah" Give me a break. That is the definition of "adjusting the rules" to suit themselves.

To the point... if the president can call me, and people with the same views "tea baggers", then the libs give him a standing ovation, but then I can call him "obummer" the self-righteous show up and beat their gums about how disrespectful it is. Which is more disrespectful, the President calling the citizens by a sexual slur, or the citizens criticizing the government? I can show you a constitution that says I have the right to criticize the government ( more [url="http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/overview.aspx"]here[/url]). What can you show me? No one has the holy right to call people names, and not expect a return of the favour, not even the president.

I mean the man IS the president of the USA, he should do better than calling Citizens names, wouldn't you think? What would make me want to act any more proper than the president of the USA?
[/quote]

The problem my acerbic friend, is the [u]way[/u] you criticize. You have a better than average intelligence which I know from personal debate with you many times in the past, but in the manner of your criticism you come across like a petulant 11th grader after his first US Government class. If your criticism has value, if it has point, then it shouldn't be diminished by your offhand attitude with it. Calling names works fine when venting behind closed doors, but doesn't drive an audience to consider your point of view when it's public. You do yourself a disservice. What's more, you do a disservice to the conservative movement. Just as Tea Bag Party participants do themselves. You say not even the President has the right to call names and should expect the same in return when he does so. You don't like or respect him, so why descend to his level?

You are too intelligent to have your views shunted aside as being without merit because of the attitude you give off when you give them. Sarcasm only comes across well on a stage. If you're looking for a stage presence, find an open mic night near you. If you're trying to influence and impact a government badly out of control in the hands of madmen of both parties, then you need to come across as convincing. Not petulant.

'Rani