I Doubt This Will Pass But Shits About To Hit The Fan...

[Tyler]

[url="http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-5741"]http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-5741[/url]

Yeah, I'm not sure what I think of this but..hmm....

[delSol_si]

i dont get it, is that bill requiring everyone to do service time? if so, fuck YOU america. its not that i don't want to serve my country, its that i don't want to serve under obama, and i don't believe in half the shit america does anymore, plus i want it to be on MY terms, not theirs.

[NitetimeReign]

If this would happen to go through. You all getting the feeling we would be heading like old Russia?

[Tyler]

I'm waiting to see what Rani and Scotsman have to say about this

[porksandwich9113]

If it passed. I'd move to canada.

[Rani]

[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1280211109' post='476490']
I'm waiting to see what Rani and Scotsman have to say about this
[/quote]

Rani says...... First of all, I'm a firm believer in national service in the military. I think at least half the problems with have with our often over-privileged and irresponsible youth is that they have no idea what they can actually do with discipline and persistence. From what I've witnessed, the one thing military service will do for you, is teach you to get beyond your untested limits and discover how much you can actually accomplish when challenged. In addition, I fully support the Israeli service requirement of everyone serving a minimum of one term in military service. I think everyone of both genders and of any age should not only be able but responsible for serving their country.

The bill is specific in that is sates that a declared state of war must be in effect. We haven't had an officially declared war since World War II unless I'm mistaken. Everything else has been undeclared conflict. The prerequisite for a Declaration of War is I believe , (correct me if I'm wrong) , that the United States must be in a state of imminent attack by a foreign nation. If under those circumstances, yo're not willing to rise to the defense of the nation, you shouldn't be living here.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='porksandwich9113' date='26 July 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1280211637' post='476491']
If it passed. I'd move to canada.
[/quote]

Go North young man........ Make sure you take some shisha for Chinamon with you.

'Rani

[Tyler]

I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.

[Rani]

[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.
[/quote]

Here's an idea...... GI Bill applies only to those who serve right? Expand it for all ages, and end up with a free college eduction. One free year of college for every year served.

'Rani

[porksandwich9113]

[quote name='Rani' date='27 July 2010 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1280212928' post='476498']
[quote name='porksandwich9113' date='26 July 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1280211637' post='476491']
If it passed. I'd move to canada.
[/quote]

Go North young man........ Make sure you take some shisha for Chinamon with you.

'Rani



[/quote]

Rofl..

I am just a firm believer that the military force is unnecessary, stupid, costly, and downright illogical.

[Rani]

[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
[b]I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.[/b]
[/quote]

Lucky for you should it ever be needed, there are those of us who can. I'm a pacifist right up to the point where someone is a danger to something or someone I love. Then all bets are off and hope you kept the warranty on the body armor.

'Rani

[thatonethere]

[quote name='porksandwich9113' date='27 July 2010 - 12:20 AM' timestamp='1280211637' post='476491']
If it passed. I'd move to canada.
[/quote]


You and me both.

[ryno]

[quote name='Tyler' date='27 July 2010 - 02:49 AM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, [b]I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.[/b]
[/quote]

Thats almost where I'm at. But I think that given the situation where people are shooting to kill me, I'd almost have, but it'd have to be for something I believe in. Like Rani said, if its a threat on our homeland, I would gladly join. Join to get shipped overseas in a "war" I don't agree, no chance in hell.

[Chreees]

As Ryan said, itd have to be a war I strongly agree with for me to be okay with going off to fight for my country. The war in Iraq, I in no-way-in-hell agree with (Our gov made up reasons to go over there, just to get oil and to finish what daddy started, proof is WMDs were never found). The war in Afghanistan, I saw why we went over there (to catch the man and his terrorist group of people who attacked us on our soil). So basically I will fight for our country if they attack us. I would never fight for this country if it was a war that we provoked without a damn good reason. Ever wonder why most of the world hates us? It's because we start shit with other countries and leave our troops behind permanently... This being the origin of why the Middle East is so disgusted with us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Now something like WWII, I would gladly fight for.

[Dogseatfood]

One: Will not pass.

Two: I'm fat.

Three: I'm just registering for the draft... ugh.

[Rani]

[quote name='Dogseatfood' date='27 July 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1280262603' post='476644']
One: Will not pass.

Two: I'm fat.

Three: I'm just registering for the draft... ugh.
[/quote]

I think you're wrong about it's passing. There's nothing untoward in the bill and I doubt any of our legislators will vote against it.

'Rani

[Tyler]

I don't think it will pass in its current state, just like many bills there will be amendments put on it beforehand.

[ezxen]

[quote name='Rani' date='26 July 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1280213675' post='476501']
[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.
[/quote]

Here's an idea...... GI Bill applies only to those who serve right? Expand it for all ages, and end up with a free college eduction. One free year of college for every year served.

'Rani
[/quote]
A freind of mine were having a conversation like this like a week ago we talked about me joining the navy next year and we started talking about what ill do after and he said that the GI bill should apply for years served . If every one is required to serve atleast 1 year and then get a free college ride is that not better forthe country as whole? More educated and disciplined people.

[Rani]

[quote name='ezxen' date='27 July 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1280275002' post='476690']
[quote name='Rani' date='26 July 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1280213675' post='476501']
[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.
[/quote]

Here's an idea...... GI Bill applies only to those who serve right? Expand it for all ages, and end up with a free college eduction. One free year of college for every year served.

'Rani
[/quote]
A freind of mine were having a conversation like this like a week ago we talked about me joining the navy next year and we started talking about what ill do after and he said that the GI bill should apply for years served . If every one is required to serve atleast 1 year and then get a free college ride is that not better forthe country as whole? More educated and disciplined people.
[/quote]

I think it would an amazing opportunity. For example: Doctors leave med school with an average of $140,000 in student loans. What if they served in a med program in the military and their entire college education were free? I've never been part of any medical program (happen to think doctors make you sick), but I know that it would takes, what 8 years graduate work? So the military picks up the tab for $140k, which is less than they would pay a civilian clerk for those same number of years sitting around typing reports. The doctor walks away debt free, and the public doesn't have to worry about defaulting on student loans, and gets a fully trained doctor in the bargain. I can't see a down side to this, not a single one.

'Rani

[Venger]

[quote name='Rani' date='27 July 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1280276011' post='476693']
[quote name='ezxen' date='27 July 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1280275002' post='476690']
[quote name='Rani' date='26 July 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1280213675' post='476501']
[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.
[/quote]

Here's an idea...... GI Bill applies only to those who serve right? Expand it for all ages, and end up with a free college eduction. One free year of college for every year served.

'Rani
[/quote]
A freind of mine were having a conversation like this like a week ago we talked about me joining the navy next year and we started talking about what ill do after and he said that the GI bill should apply for years served . If every one is required to serve atleast 1 year and then get a free college ride is that not better forthe country as whole? More educated and disciplined people.
[/quote]

I think it would an amazing opportunity. For example: Doctors leave med school with an average of $140,000 in student loans. What if they served in a med program in the military and their entire college education were free? I've never been part of any medical program (happen to think doctors make you sick), but I know that it would takes, what 8 years graduate work? So the military picks up the tab for $140k, which is less than they would pay a civilian clerk for those same number of years sitting around typing reports. The doctor walks away debt free, and the public doesn't have to worry about defaulting on student loans, and gets a fully trained doctor in the bargain. I can't see a down side to this, not a single one.

'Rani
[/quote]
there is no such thing as free. The debt just moves from the student (who received the benefit of the education) to the public (you and me).
As a tax payer I don't feel it necessary to pay a kid to become a Dr. while I make 40k as a pc tech. This will probably not pass. The bill has no cosponsors and this guy has proposed this legislation every year he has been in office.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='28 July 2010 - 04:36 AM' timestamp='1280316960' post='476762']
[quote name='Rani' date='27 July 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1280276011' post='476693']
[quote name='ezxen' date='27 July 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1280275002' post='476690']
[quote name='Rani' date='26 July 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1280213675' post='476501']
[quote name='Tyler' date='26 July 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1280213396' post='476499']
I wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly [state of war] before I passed judgement. It also states that not necessarily military service is required but could be civil service as well including something as [simple] as community service. I do wonder though about the vague wording of this bill since it includes things such as "the president will decide on other things in the future" kind of something that should be defined before the bill passes? I'm all for this idea as long as it offers options for people like me who would rather do something to support the efforts in a not-grabbing-a-gun-and-shooting-at-people way. I would never not defend my country, especially if such a law passed, and I certainly wouldn't run to Canada, I just personally couldn't bring myself to kill someone -- life or death situation or not.
[/quote]

Here's an idea...... GI Bill applies only to those who serve right? Expand it for all ages, and end up with a free college eduction. One free year of college for every year served.

'Rani
[/quote]
A freind of mine were having a conversation like this like a week ago we talked about me joining the navy next year and we started talking about what ill do after and he said that the GI bill should apply for years served . If every one is required to serve atleast 1 year and then get a free college ride is that not better forthe country as whole? More educated and disciplined people.
[/quote]

I think it would an amazing opportunity. For example: Doctors leave med school with an average of $140,000 in student loans. What if they served in a med program in the military and their entire college education were free? I've never been part of any medical program (happen to think doctors make you sick), but I know that it would takes, what 8 years graduate work? So the military picks up the tab for $140k, which is less than they would pay a civilian clerk for those same number of years sitting around typing reports. The doctor walks away debt free, and the public doesn't have to worry about defaulting on student loans, and gets a fully trained doctor in the bargain. I can't see a down side to this, not a single one.

'Rani
[/quote]
there is no such thing as free. The debt just moves from the student (who received the benefit of the education) to the public (you and me).
As a tax payer I don't feel it necessary to pay a kid to become a Dr. while I make 40k as a pc tech. This will probably not pass. The bill has no cosponsors and this guy has proposed this legislation every year he has been in office.
Ray
[/quote]

It wouldn't be "free". He'd be working for the program. His education would be his payment instead of hiring someone to sit around typing reports for the same amount of time. A civilian clerk gets about $42k a year. Times those 8 years I mentioned? $336k. Room and board run probably no more than $10kl per year because military do their own cleanup and maintenance, food is purchased in quantity, etc. But let's double it to $20k per year. So $140k plus $160k and you have $300k. So for one student the federal government has just saved $35k. And that's in the case of a doctor. For your average business grad, it's going to be much, much less cost, and conversely dramatically higher savings.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

State of war, and declaration of war are completely different conditions.

Poached from one of the DA's legal volumes:

[i]War is not only an act, but a state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention, but also when, they have any matter of controversy or dispute subsisting between them which they are determined to decide by the use of force, and have declared publicly, or by their acts, their determination so to decide it. [/i]

I think the key part of the statement is "[i]...state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention..." [/i]I would take that to define a state of war to be as simple as any international disagreement. Not, as one would assume, a declared war by congress. Living with a lawyer has made me overly suspicious of specific language.

[i]
[/i]In any case, it's an extension of the same logic that created the "public service" requirement for HS graduation that has been indoctrinating the mind numbed young masses. It's public slavery under another name. Get used to it. It's not going away in your lifetime.

Anyone that thinks Canada wants them over their inability to stand up for their own rights, is not facing reality, they don't want your hypocritical, BS there. Elections have consequences. You vote for the people that don't want to keep score in sports, think red pens are too harsh, and we all need to work for the betterment of the collective, rather than themselves, and their family, this is what you get. Wake the hell up. quit believing the BS spewed by the agenda driven media, the teacher's unions, and assorted other dead-beats. Find out what the politicians are planning for your life, preferably before you put them in charge of your life... and quit reciting the stupid one-line bumper sticker campaign slogans.

Or don't. I really don't care. Oh, by the way, thanks for the free retirement, and healthcare you are paying. I got mine from this world, now you and your grandchildren need to get to work and pay my healthcare, and retirement costs. so get the hell away from the hookah, and get to work... because that is what you voted to do for me. (really, that is meant with all possible scarcasim. Don't take it wrong. My generation lived every benefit of this nation, but has completely screwed up the responsibilities that came with it. In the end, those of us that ended the "baby boom" have cost this nation, and all you younger people so much more than you will ever know. It is really a complete embarrassment. I vote we blame RANI for the whole mess.:774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_thLast election I thought they all sucked. Out of protest I voted for my cat as president. Unfortunately, "Just-Kat" lost. It's looking like he would have been a better choice.[i]
[/i]

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='28 July 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1280374058' post='476898']
State of war, and declaration of war are completely different conditions.

Poached from one of the DA's legal volumes:

[i]War is not only an act, but a state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention, but also when, they have any matter of controversy or dispute subsisting between them which they are determined to decide by the use of force, and have declared publicly, or by their acts, their determination so to decide it. [/i]

I think the key part of the statement is "[i]...state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention..." [/i]I would take that to define a state of war to be as simple as any international disagreement. Not, as one would assume, a declared war by congress. Living with a lawyer has made me overly suspicious of specific language.

[i]
[/i]In any case, it's an extension of the same logic that created the "public service" requirement for HS graduation that has been indoctrinating the mind numbed young masses. It's public slavery under another name. Get used to it. It's not going away in your lifetime.

Anyone that thinks Canada wants them over their inability to stand up for their own rights, is not facing reality, they don't want your hypocritical, BS there. Elections have consequences. You vote for the people that don't want to keep score in sports, think red pens are too harsh, and we all need to work for the betterment of the collective, rather than themselves, and their family, this is what you get. Wake the hell up. quit believing the BS spewed by the agenda driven media, the teacher's unions, and assorted other dead-beats. Find out what the politicians are planning for your life, preferably before you put them in charge of your life... and quit reciting the stupid one-line bumper sticker campaign slogans.

Or don't. I really don't care. Oh, by the way, thanks for the free retirement, and healthcare you are paying. I got mine from this world, now you and your grandchildren need to get to work and pay my healthcare, and retirement costs. so get the hell away from the hookah, and get to work... because that is what you voted to do for me. (really, that is meant with all possible scarcasim. Don't take it wrong. My generation lived every benefit of this nation, but has completely screwed up the responsibilities that came with it. In the end, those of us that ended the "baby boom" have cost this nation, and all you younger people so much more than you will ever know. It is really a complete embarrassment. I vote we blame RANI for the whole mess.:774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_thLast election I thought they all sucked. Out of protest I voted for my cat as president. Unfortunately, "Just-Kat" lost. It's looking like he would have been a better choice.[i]
[/i]
[/quote]

Long as you quit blaming Democrats to the exclusion of the other rotten bastards, I'll take it. Come on Scotsman, give up. None of them are worth a rats ass. And if people aren't willing to defend the country they shouldn't be living here.

'Rani

[Tyler]

[quote name='Rani' date='29 July 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1280381066' post='476914']
[quote name='TheScotsman' date='28 July 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1280374058' post='476898']
State of war, and declaration of war are completely different conditions.

Poached from one of the DA's legal volumes:

[i]War is not only an act, but a state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention, but also when, they have any matter of controversy or dispute subsisting between them which they are determined to decide by the use of force, and have declared publicly, or by their acts, their determination so to decide it. [/i]

I think the key part of the statement is "[i]...state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention..." [/i]I would take that to define a state of war to be as simple as any international disagreement. Not, as one would assume, a declared war by congress. Living with a lawyer has made me overly suspicious of specific language.

[i]
[/i]In any case, it's an extension of the same logic that created the "public service" requirement for HS graduation that has been indoctrinating the mind numbed young masses. It's public slavery under another name. Get used to it. It's not going away in your lifetime.

Anyone that thinks Canada wants them over their inability to stand up for their own rights, is not facing reality, they don't want your hypocritical, BS there. Elections have consequences. You vote for the people that don't want to keep score in sports, think red pens are too harsh, and we all need to work for the betterment of the collective, rather than themselves, and their family, this is what you get. Wake the hell up. quit believing the BS spewed by the agenda driven media, the teacher's unions, and assorted other dead-beats. Find out what the politicians are planning for your life, preferably before you put them in charge of your life... and quit reciting the stupid one-line bumper sticker campaign slogans.

Or don't. I really don't care. Oh, by the way, thanks for the free retirement, and healthcare you are paying. I got mine from this world, now you and your grandchildren need to get to work and pay my healthcare, and retirement costs. so get the hell away from the hookah, and get to work... because that is what you voted to do for me. (really, that is meant with all possible scarcasim. Don't take it wrong. My generation lived every benefit of this nation, but has completely screwed up the responsibilities that came with it. In the end, those of us that ended the "baby boom" have cost this nation, and all you younger people so much more than you will ever know. It is really a complete embarrassment. I vote we blame RANI for the whole mess.:774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_thLast election I thought they all sucked. Out of protest I voted for my cat as president. Unfortunately, "Just-Kat" lost. It's looking like he would have been a better choice.[i]
[/i]
[/quote]

Long as you quit blaming Democrats to the exclusion of the other rotten bastards, I'll take it. Come on Scotsman, give up. None of them are worth a rats ass. [b][size="7"]And if people aren't willing to defend the country they shouldn't be living here.
[/size][/b]
'Rani
[/quote]

QFT

There are many ways to "defend" ones country

[acolorado]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='28 July 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1280374058' post='476898']
State of war, and declaration of war are completely different conditions.

Poached from one of the DA's legal volumes:

[i]War is not only an act, but a state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention, but also when, they have any matter of controversy or dispute subsisting between them which they are determined to decide by the use of force, and have declared publicly, or by their acts, their determination so to decide it. [/i]

I think the key part of the statement is "[i]...state or condition, for nations are said to be at war not only when their armies are engaged, so as to be in the very act of contention..." [/i]I would take that to define a state of war to be as simple as any international disagreement. Not, as one would assume, a declared war by congress. Living with a lawyer has made me overly suspicious of specific language.

[i]
[/i]In any case, it's an extension of the same logic that created the "public service" requirement for HS graduation that has been indoctrinating the mind numbed young masses. It's public slavery under another name. Get used to it. It's not going away in your lifetime.

Anyone that thinks Canada wants them over their inability to stand up for their own rights, is not facing reality, they don't want your hypocritical, BS there. Elections have consequences. You vote for the people that don't want to keep score in sports, think red pens are too harsh, and we all need to work for the betterment of the collective, rather than themselves, and their family, this is what you get. Wake the hell up. quit believing the BS spewed by the agenda driven media, the teacher's unions, and assorted other dead-beats. Find out what the politicians are planning for your life, preferably before you put them in charge of your life... and
Or don't. I really don't care. Oh, by the way, thanks for the free retirement, and healthcare you are paying. I got mine from this world, now you and your grandchildren need to get to work and pay my healthcare, and retirement costs. so get the hell away from the hookah, and get to work... because that is what you voted to do for me. (really, that is meant with all possible scarcasim. Don't take it wrong. My generation lived every benefit of this nation, but has completely screwed up the responsibilities that came with it. In the end, those of us that ended the "baby boom" have cost this nation, and all you younger people so much more than you will ever know. It is really a complete embarrassment. I vote we blame RANI for the whole mess.:774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_thLast election I thought they all sucked. Out of protest I voted for my cat as president. Unfortunately, "Just-Kat" lost. It's looking like he would have been a better choice.[i]
[/i]
[/quote]



You seem to have some trouble deciding what you really believe.

First you claim that requiring public service in High school is akin to slavery, and then later complain that your generation screwed up all the responsibilities that come along with the benefits of living in this country.

Then you say "Elections have consequences" in one paragraph and then tell us to "quit reciting the stupid one-line bumper sticker campaign slogans" in the next.

The only good argument that appears anywhere in your post in your sig -

"We leave in peace the people who start the fires and molest those who ring the alarm bell"

That is the most accurate description of the conservative worldview you promote that I've ever seen. Some examples.

They don't want to pay taxes and they want a very small government yet:

- When crime is up because there's no money for an effective police force they complain.

- When we can't patrol the border effectively because there is no money for it they complain.

- They want the government to cut programs, just not the ones they use. God forbid you cut THEIR social security!

- They think CEO's deserve their multi-million dollar salaries - plus bonuses - because that gives them incentive to work and those poor businesses couldn't attract qualified people if they paid less. But they think it's fine if teachers and cops make peanuts - as if that has nothing to do with the sad state of our schools and streets - and they seem to think government should have NO problem attracting good people willing to work for a pittance.

- They vote for and support people who claim to be fiscally conservative - yet those people were the ones who started 2 very costly wars, put in place a new entitlement program costing over a TRILLION dollars (Medicare Plan D), and turned a 260 Billion dollar surplus into a 1.2 TRILLION dollar deficit while they controlled government.

- They claim to care about rights - yet they never seem to mention that it's CONSERVATIVES who gave us Torture, warrantless wiretaps, and indefinite detention. They think it's a great idea to deport the children of illegal immigrants who were born here - which makes them citizens. They always refer to their religious rights - but don't want Muslims to share those rights. They want the government to have the power to spy on anyone at anytime without a court order, to hold someone without a trial forever, and to torture them in the process, or just to deport anyone they don't like - but they want us to believe they actually care about the rights of anyone but themselves and they want the government to have less power. Sure.

- They jump up and down and throw a fit every time a liberal tells a fib and scream "Liar!!!!" - yet they bring every half-baked conservative conspiracy theory to the table and when it turns out to be a complete fabrication they say "well that's just the media's fault" or "just politics as usual" - or more often, they just bring us another total fantasy.

-Many claim to be some kind of independent, but they never get upset when a conservative turns out to be corrupt, or tells a complete lie, or does something thing they claim to be against (like spending, or growing the government, or cheating on their wife even though they claim to believe in "family values"). That doesn't make someone an independent, it just makes them a dishonest partisan.

-They claim some magical power to interpret the Constitution for all of us, but when the Constitution specifically forbids what they want, like religion in schools, or deporting American citizens (recent flap in Arizona) - they're the first ones who talk about changing it.

-They claim to love this country - but then threaten to secede from it in the very next breathe because they can't have absolutely everything their way. They claim that anyone who criticizes a President they voted for is un-American or a terrorist sympathizer - but then every word out of their mouth is a criticism of the guy they voted against. They want to ban frivolous lawsuits, but then sue the government to release a birth certificate which is already public, or want to impeach a President for - well they don't have any reason they just want to do it.

Conservatives are the experts at starting the fires then pointing the finger and molesting anyone who wants to put it out.

Mostly they are just dishonest, hypocritical, or simply don't have a clue what they're talking about.