"Ground Zero" Mosque?

[mustafabey]

Has anyone been following this debate? I lived in NYC for 14 years and worked near the WTC and have lost some acquaintances on 9/11. The president has said something to the effect that this is America and our constitutional guarantee of religious freedom should allow this mosque/Islamic center to built. Others feel that ground zero is sacred ground and that a "victory" mosque should not be erected.
The site isn't actually on ground zero, but 2 blocks away in an old dept store building that was damaged by debris on 9/11. The whole idea of a victory mosque is some creation of those that oppose` the project. Islam does not build victory mosques. This crap comes from the minds of the same people who tell you that paradise includes 72 virgins for you to screw and that suicide bombers are enticed by these offers of unlimited sex.
If you believe that the current war is against the likes of al Qaeda and other similar groups, then a mosque should be no problem, as the building does not represent al Qaeda. It might even be seen as a healing gesture.
On the other hand, if you believe we are locked in a religious war of Christianity vs Islam in a battle that lead to the second coming of Jesus and Armaggedon, then the whole mosque idea is abhorent.
Would nice to hear some opinions on this issue

[IainUM]

i can understand that there is a freedom of religion and all that, but it just seems a little unnecessary to put a mosque right near there. whether they have a secondary motive or even if it is a sheer coincidence, it seems like that area wouldn't be the best area to do it in. i don't have anything wrong with other religions, but it just seems like a bad idea and that it could stir up a lot of controversy, which i guess it already has

[Chreees]

I love how Obama's words were taken WAY out of context, and how people took it the total opposite way. You're right, mustafabey, people are associating al Qaeda with all of the Muslims. They are not the same. As Obama said, America is a land of freedom of religion, which goes back all the way to our founding fathers. Let them build the mosque that is on private property anyway.

With ignorance you only hear what you wish to hear...

[mushrat]

i hate idiots.

Build a mosque anywhere you want to. I'm going to assume that there were a few Muslims working in the trade centers when they went down? Or is the over budget politicized to hell memorial project going to honour only Christians who died?

[Tyler]

Build it, then build a church, a catholic church, a synogogue, a Hindu temple, a meditation gathering place, ect...all in a row. There is [b][i][u]absolutely no legitimate arguement[/u][/i][/b] in the United States against building a mosque at or near "ground zero."

[ezxen]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' date='15 August 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1281899340' post='479005']
I love how Obama's words were taken WAY out of context, and how people took it the total opposite way. You're right, mustafabey, people are associating al Qaeda with all of the Muslims. They are not the same. As Obama said, America is a land of freedom of religion, which goes back all the way to our founding fathers. Let them build the mosque that is on private property anyway.

With ignorance you only hear what you wish to hear...
[/quote]
I couldn't agree with you more . I see where this would piss some people off , but This is America . This land was build for freedom of speech and religion . Opposing a religious group from building a church where they want is unconstitutional . That is unless its a Scientology church then burn the damn thing down .

[IainUM]

[quote name='Tyler' date='15 August 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1281900370' post='479010']
Build it, then build a church, a catholic church, a synogogue, a Hindu temple, a meditation gathering place, ect...all in a row. There is [b][i][u]absolutely no legitimate arguement[/u][/i][/b] in the United States against building a mosque at or near "ground zero."
[/quote]

i agree, there is no legitimate argument against building it. i just think, from a personal standpoint, it might be creating more controversy than it is worth. but who knows? but from a legal standpoint, there is for sure no way that they can't do it. it just wouldn't be the place i would build a mosque

[gooberak]

RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IS UN-ISLAMIC...............


WAKE UP!!!!

[RingsMaster]

i lived in NY the first 14 years of my life, my dad has worked in every building in NY that is for business, when the planes hit he was across the harbor in NJ, funny enough he had been offered a job in the wtc 2 weeks earlier. he was locked in NY for almost 5 days while we stayed home worried sick, friends of mine died either in the crashes, when the building collapsed or rescuing people from the wreckage. more families than id care to mention have been torn apart. i am in no way racist, or have any hatred towards Muslim people as i do have a few friends that are and understand that just like Americans there are idiots and very nice people, but to me building the mosque is not in good taste. in my opinion, it makes me feel as if terrorism has won, by placing it there a place of great national incident. maybe i do sound a little racist but i am terribly scarred from the experience and don't mean to come off that way at all. it just kinda feels like a slap in the face from terrorists, i feel as if no one in there right mind would want to put anything except a memorial and maybe rebuild the towers in a different fashion, because A. people are going to overreact and get mad, its human nature to be honest. and B. its something that might not sit well with the domination population of the US. people are going to get pissed.

look if i came of racist in my views i do apologize guys, that was not my aim at all and im not racist in any way, i do understand one apple doesn't have to spoil the batch

[RingsMaster]

yeah i just realized that sounds super racist. look i am all for equality and freedom for everyone, but i am worried this will create great conflct in our country and since im from NY i know how people are there, things will go south very fast, people are going to feel offended and take action against it, too many people were assaulted in NY just because they were muslim, people cant make the jump that not all Muslims are terrorists. and that not all terrorists are Muslim.

[Tyler]

There is no such thing as a terrorist Muslim. Just like there is no such thing as a terrorist christian (KKK ring a bell to anyone?) People need to realize that just because they claim to be a Muslim or a Christian does not mean that they are one -- they've manipulated the basics principals of the religion to suite their own crazed efforts to "purify" the land. Did you know that Hitler was raised Catholic and favored protestant religious views against the national church of Germany? Yeah, he was a devout Christian alright. Let's make sure not to build any more churchs in germany because it will remind us of hitler.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='RingsMaster' date='16 August 2010 - 08:02 AM' timestamp='1281960138' post='479122']
yeah i just realized that sounds super racist. look i am all for equality and freedom for everyone, but i am worried this will create great conflct in our country and since im from NY i know how people are there, things will go south very fast, people are going to feel offended and take action against it, too many people were assaulted in NY just because they were muslim, people cant make the jump that not all Muslims are terrorists. and that not all terrorists are Muslim.
[/quote]

Yes, there is a great possibility that this mosque could well become a flashpoint and be subject to demonstartions, vandalism etc. Obama said that while he supports the right to build it,he is not commenting on the wisdom. I drove into town this morning and listened to Glenn Beck. He doesn't say so directly but seems view the current mid east conflict as a holy war against christianity waged by Islam. Well he seems to suggest that their are other ways of dealing with Obama other than elections.You get a guy like this to stir the pot and lots of shit can happen.

[Venger]

Lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say I am a rabid right wing uberchristian and me and some of my buddies decide the only way to deal with the non-believers is to fly a couple of jets into the largest Masque in Mecca. Now several years later a moderate group of Christians want to build a church and youth center a block or two away from the sight of the crash. How do you think that's gonna go over? I not saying legally but in the hearts of the survivors and people who live nearby. Tolerance should be expected only when it is given. No ones rights are anymore important than anyone elses.
Ray

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Venger' date='16 August 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1281971797' post='479146']
Lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say I am a rabid right wing uberchristian and me and some of my buddies decide the only way to deal with the non-believers is to fly a couple of jets into the largest Masque in Mecca. Now several years later a moderate group of Christians want to build a church and youth center a block or two away from the sight of the crash. How do you think that's gonna go over? I not saying legally but in the hearts of the survivors and people who live nearby. Tolerance should be expected only when it is given. No ones rights are anymore important than anyone elses.
Ray
[/quote]
Interesting point, Ray. But I wonder about your choice of buildings. The Masjid al Haram is a little different than the World trade center. Unless if you figure that America worships money then the WTC is a holy place. Nothing holy about the WTC. So lets say instead your right wing uberchristian wackos targeted the HQ building in Saudi of the Bin Laden construction co.(if such a creature exists) in Jeddah( no christian building would tolerated in Mecca under any circumstance) How would the Saudis react? There would be no question, no church, no way. But we are no Saudi Arabia, we are America, we are supposed to stand for the principles established in our constitution. But it seems that no matter which party you listen to these days, these founding principles seem now to be negotiable.

[mitchard]

This seems like a hot topic on most of the forums I visit.

Oh, and Timmy McVeigh was a Catholic, but nobody would be up in arms about a Catholic church being built near the site Oklahoma City bombing... right?

Any opposition to the construction of this center is just a prime example of ignorance. Religious persecution is real American of us, isn't it? I understand thats its a touchy subject to some, but opposing this this drawing a thicker line between religious groups in this country and only creating more problems in the end. As pointed out, these crimes were allegedly committed by an extremist. Islam didn't attack the United States, though it really seems like thats how we as a nation took it.

[Rani]

It's a very sensitive issue for a lot of people. But it's not even logical to blame an entire faith for something a few lunatics, who happened to use that faith as an excuse, did. Hate will find an outlet and an excuse. We have to get past that and I think in the long run, a Mosque dedicated to the actual faith of Islam rather than the lunatics, combined with a sensitive outreach to the community could do a lot to heal some of the wounds and eliminate many of the misconceptions about the faith.

'Rani

[Venger]

[quote name='mustafabey' date='16 August 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1281979177' post='479154']
[quote name='Venger' date='16 August 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1281971797' post='479146']
Lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say I am a rabid right wing uberchristian and me and some of my buddies decide the only way to deal with the non-believers is to fly a couple of jets into the largest Masque in Mecca. Now several years later a moderate group of Christians want to build a church and youth center a block or two away from the sight of the crash. How do you think that's gonna go over? I not saying legally but in the hearts of the survivors and people who live nearby. Tolerance should be expected only when it is given. No ones rights are anymore important than anyone elses.
Ray
[/quote]
Interesting point, Ray. But I wonder about your choice of buildings. The Masjid al Haram is a little different than the World trade center. Unless if you figure that America worships money then the WTC is a holy place. Nothing holy about the WTC. So lets say instead your right wing uberchristian wackos targeted the HQ building in Saudi of the Bin Laden construction co.(if such a creature exists) in Jeddah( no christian building would tolerated in Mecca under any circumstance) How would the Saudis react? There would be no question, no church, no way. But we are no Saudi Arabia, we are America, we are supposed to stand for the principles established in our constitution. But it seems that no matter which party you listen to these days, these founding principles seem now to be negotiable.
[/quote]

I can not believe I am going to say this and acolorado and Rani need to stop reading now. I have to agree with Obama. Legally and constitutionally they have every right and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with them to defend it. Its the wisdom of their choice of location. Is there really no other location they could build that would be less sensitive. Perception is reality. Most thinking people realize Islam did not attach America but nut jobs in the name of Islam.But most of these people aren't being rational.The "feel" hurt and betray by this. You can make people not feel what they feel.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='16 August 2010 - 11:46 AM' timestamp='1281984411' post='479170']
[quote name='mustafabey' date='16 August 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1281979177' post='479154']
[quote name='Venger' date='16 August 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1281971797' post='479146']
Lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say I am a rabid right wing uberchristian and me and some of my buddies decide the only way to deal with the non-believers is to fly a couple of jets into the largest Masque in Mecca. Now several years later a moderate group of Christians want to build a church and youth center a block or two away from the sight of the crash. How do you think that's gonna go over? I not saying legally but in the hearts of the survivors and people who live nearby. Tolerance should be expected only when it is given. No ones rights are anymore important than anyone elses.
Ray
[/quote]
Interesting point, Ray. But I wonder about your choice of buildings. The Masjid al Haram is a little different than the World trade center. Unless if you figure that America worships money then the WTC is a holy place. Nothing holy about the WTC. So lets say instead your right wing uberchristian wackos targeted the HQ building in Saudi of the Bin Laden construction co.(if such a creature exists) in Jeddah( no christian building would tolerated in Mecca under any circumstance) How would the Saudis react? There would be no question, no church, no way. But we are no Saudi Arabia, we are America, we are supposed to stand for the principles established in our constitution. But it seems that no matter which party you listen to these days, these founding principles seem now to be negotiable.
[/quote]

I can not believe I am going to say this and acolorado and Rani need to stop reading now. I have to agree with Obama. Legally and constitutionally they have every right and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with them to defend it. Its the wisdom of their choice of location. Is there really no other location they could build that would be less sensitive. Perception is reality. Most thinking people realize Islam did not attach America but nut jobs in the name of Islam.But most of these people aren't being rational.The "feel" hurt and betray by this. You can make people not feel what they feel.
Ray
[/quote]

I agree with your statement about wisdom in choosing the location, but if you think of the city as an map, it could be that the are trying for that particular location for convenience of worshipers. Ground Zero occupies a huge portion of valuable real estate that may simply be adjacent to that same location they focused on for location of a mosque. If you get what I'm saying about churches and other places of worship try to place themselves around the city for the convenience of their congregations. There's no question they need to include in their choice a strong sensitivity to the situation and outreach to the community. As Mush said, they undoubtedly lost Muslims as well. The towers have been used as an example of the worst of Islam, but in fact they were not a victim of the religion itself only those who misused it as a vehicle for their personal war. Just as the Inquisition, Holocaust, etc. through history.

In the end, it's got to be about conversation, communication, and negotiation. Elements I firmly believe in that if used can make everyone as comfortable as they can be under the circumstance.

'Rani

[IainUM]

this might make some people laugh.
http://www.americanprogress.org/cartoons/2010/08/081610.html

[mushrat]

um. im gonna say something without reading everything and im going to remind you all to be nice.

This country was NOT founded on religious freedom, this country was founded so that a particular religion could be free from government suppression in England. They were about as tolerant of other religions as the place they came from was toward them.

Back to my hookah.

[Chreees]

[quote name='mushrat' date='16 August 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1282008292' post='479214']
um. im gonna say something without reading everything and im going to remind you all to be nice.

This country was NOT founded on religious freedom, this country was founded so that a particular religion could be free from government suppression in England. They were about as tolerant of other religions as the place they came from was toward them.

Back to my hookah.
[/quote]

You're sooooooo right, Mush. The founding fathers didn't have all the religions in mind. Just their own that the English King didn't like.

[Stuie]

Actually is was sort of religious freedom.

The point was to make it where no religion would be established as the Religion of the Country.

Founders fled England because they didn't want to be part of the Anglican Church, other Catholics, and Protestants, and other religions were persecuted and forced to conform.

Solution was getting them to expand the British Empire while keeping the homeland of one faith. "Get rid of the trouble makers and Expand the Empire!"


It's a sensitivity thing. I guarantee you if Jerry Falwell wanted to put up a church on or near the site after his "This is all because of the gays" comment about 9/11 we would be having the same discussion.

We don't want to be reminded of the ignorance of the extremism of any religion. Especially near such a tragic moment in History.

[Yasseah]

Of course in order to uphold American values, a Mosque should be allowed to be built there, but that's exactly what makes it such a classless gesture in the first place. I mean, just have some common sense.

The folks who want to put the mosque there are doing this because they know it will stir up controversy. But it would be un-American to prohibit something on the basis of it being in such bad taste.

[mushrat]

But, in actuallity there is a state religion. Christianity. We swear in court on christian bibles, there are christian prayers in congress, ball games, and most other public events. Hell, the supreme court said x-mas decorations arent religious for crying out loud.

[Chreees]

Mush makes a VERY valid point...

I actually remember when I was in elementary school there was a Muslim girl who refused to stand and say the pledge to the flag... Teachers didn't know what to do. They freaked. At first they tried making her stand and doing it. Then after her mother came to the school and got involved, they told her she could just sit while everyone else did it...