"Ground Zero" Mosque?

[antouwan]

not saying it's wrong, definitely not saying it's right. it's just stupid. i don't like stupid.

feel free to put it there but don't bitch and moan when people vandalize the shit out of it. if you want to get a controversy then don't complain when shit gets 'real.' i'm not advocating that - i'm just being realistic in saying it's going to happen.

[Rani]

[quote name='antouwan' date='17 August 2010 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1282082668' post='479331']
not saying it's wrong, definitely not saying it's right. it's just stupid. i don't like stupid.

feel free to put it there but don't bitch and moan when people vandalize the shit out of it. if you want to get a controversy then don't complain when shit gets 'real.' i'm not advocating that - i'm just being realistic in saying it's going to happen.
[/quote]

An important point. A lot of people make a lot of assumptions about the state of mind of those putting the mosque there. "It's a celebration of the destruction" say some, but I don't see how anyone can truly know. They will most likely face vandalism, and the mosque may well be moved. It may also be that they reach out to the community in an effort to heal the divisions their choosing that site has caused. It may even be that that is their long term intention. What if they pray for those lost in th towers every single day for a thousand years as a sort of spiritual reparation? What if that were their purpose? Until their actual actions are seen we can presume all we like but we can't absolutely know their intent. I must say that there must be some strong underlying reason that they would choose a place with such controversy attached to it and which will likely attract the utmost hatred and derision. That reason could be good or bad and only time and their actions are going to tell which it is.

'Rani

[Sapphire]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Yea, I agree they have the RIGHT to build it there, but its obviously not the SMARTEST place to build it.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]The place will get broken into, spray painted on, and probably burned down SEVERAL times and will end up spending more money just rebuilding the dang thing over and over than if they just put it somewhere else.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]I wonder just how many people would actually attend , knowing just how dangerous it would be to even be seen around the place.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]I say, if they really want to take that battle on….let em. America gives us the right to be stupid.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[jezter6]

[quote name='Sapphire' timestamp='1282142325' post='479392']
[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Yea, I agree they have the RIGHT to build it there, but its obviously not the SMARTEST place to build it.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]The place will get broken into, spray painted on, and probably burned down SEVERAL times and will end up spending more money just rebuilding the dang thing over and over than if they just put it somewhere else.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]I wonder just how many people would actually attend , knowing just how dangerous it would be to even be seen around the place.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]I say, if they really want to take that battle on….let em. America gives us the right to be stupid.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font]
[/quote]
They'll probably just hire those new black panther types from Philly to provide "security" for the place. They apparently can do no wrong.

[ctsmo]

im kind of surprised by the comments here, it seems many people dont know where this is actually proposed and it seems most people are getting their news from big media outlets looking for a story. btw im neither for or against this establisment

keith olbermann did a wonderful piece that i recommend everyone watch.

[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/38731398#38731398"]http://www.msnbc.msn...731398#38731398[/url] Edited August 18, 2010 by ctsmo

[judgeposer]

There's no First Amendment issue here! The Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment protections against a government endorsement of religion, and the freedom of religious exercise applies ONLY to government action. In other words, the Bill or Rights protects us from [i]government interfering with those rights[/i], not from other private citizens.

Say what you want about American [i]tradition[/i], being a place of religious freedom, there is no constitutional issue of law here.

I'd also add that there is a/an (legitimate) argument against building a mosque near ground zero, namely [i]prudence[/i]. Let's not be as anti-intellectual as most of the rhetoric we hear surrounding this issue. Remember, Ground Zero remains the unfortunate home to the greatest mass murder in American history. That tragedy was perpetuated by a group of men who subscribed to a particular strain of Islam--it was in its name they killed themselves and nearly 3,000 people. We must not forget, however, that they represented a minority of Muslims. As Charles Krauthammer said in his recent op-ed piece on the topic, "Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi -- yet despite contemporary Germany's innocence, no German of goodwill would even think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka." I also read, perhaps in his piece or somewhere else another analogy, which was that no one objects of Japanese Cultural Centers, but we would, and reasonably so, object to one at the site of Pearl Harbor. Now, regardless of the best intentions the mosque's builders have, it's simply not welcome - now, that alone doesn't mean they shouldn't build. I just mean to say that if they have intentions of community outreach, reconciliation, and education, then they should have concern for how their actions are percieved and the effect their building will have. Among area Muslims who will come to pray there, the proposed mosque's constituents include affected New Yorkers, some still reeling from the tragedy of 9/11. Put most simply, Muslims as a people are not to blame for 9/11, but the builders of this mosque have to have an appreciation, lest they choose to be insensitive to everything beside their own wishes, for the "feeling" most New Yorkers have. They don't have to listen, and they can choose to build because they enjoy that freedom, for sure, but, their message and possibly good intentions risk being overshadowed by their imprudence or perceived insensitivity.

We shouldn't reduce this issue to simple intolerance, despite many of the proposed mosque's critics offering shabby unreasonable arguments that smack of intolerance - don't straw man the opposition! I work a few blocks from Ground Zero. There's a mosque a few blocks beyond where the current mosque is proposed to be built. The area survives beautifully and densely with a diversity among workers, countless tourists (ugh!), and local life. Just today, outside of my office building, as I left from work I saw, as I can catch daily when I leave at the right time, many Muslim street merchants perform their ritual wudu (cleansing) and salat (prayer). No one interferes, no one balks, no one tells them to stop and move. New Yorker, including me, do not think of themselves as intolerant - how can we be given where, and with whom we live and work. This isn't intolerance, its a sensitivity and respect for what we have come to respect as hallowed ground.

[Ring Master Arain]

the mosque is going to be 2 blocks away from ground zero in the finacial district. I don't see why this would be a problem. I am certain there are a lot of Muslims working there. pretty sure it is a perfect place to have a mosque. the only people that object this mosque are people that have no idea what the religion is really about. and believe anything they hear on the news and in the papers.

[Chreees]

I was watching Fox News for about 30 minutes during Bill O' Reilly and couldn't believe the things I heard... Not only about the mosque, but crap about how Obama IS a practicing Muslim and that he really wants it built... They were saying the mosque is really going to be a training center for the Islam extremists. Oh, and that all Muslims are the same and hate us and wish to harm us. It was unbelievable. I guess they can't make the connection that there's a difference between Muslims and the people who twist the religion to form their psycho agenda.

It's two freakin' blocks away, people. As Olbermann said, people won't even see it unless they walk over to it...

However, when I was watching Fox News they were making it how to be like it's RIGHT there. I flipped over to CNN and they weren't even talking about the mosque. Then I flipped over to History channel.

[mustafabey]

Its people like Fox news, Beck,Limbaugh,Hannity and that tribe that are trying to get us involved in a full religious war with al Islam. All these rednecks down here think Fox is real news. Someone took a poll, more Americans believe Obama is a Muslim that did before the election. Oh yes, all the rednecks believe the rapture is coming and they'll all get caught up in the air.(gives a new meaning to air pollution). Right wing Christianity lobbys for crap like this to happen. We can't finish Iraq properly and Afghanistan is a mess,but we'll take on al Islam, from Morocco to the the furthest Indonesia and who is going to pay for it? These wackos are no different from their counterparts in Islam. I like the term American Taliban for these people. But I think the real agenda is to make Obama's presidency short and ineffective. What unnerves these American Taliban most is the color of his skin. They call him a Muslim cause they can't call him a n----r. And they'd really like to call him that.

[ctsmo]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]absolutely agree with you. these people love hate mongering and are so ignorant its beyond belief. [/size][/font]

[mustafabey]

There is an agenda here and it has little to do with Obama's skin color, religion, gay rights or abortion. Those are triggers of hate that these people use to stir up their base. Its the same thing Josef Goebbels did in Nazi Germany. He perfected the big lie technique of propaganda, which is based on the principle that a lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will be believed by the masses. I often wonder why conservatives are against public education and support privatization. Only the rich get educated and the rest get Fox news. If you listen , as I do sometimes, to their propaganda, you will find that there is a rather consistent message these guys are spouting. They use the same words, the same analogies, the same hate triggers. They get alot of this preprogrammed hate from an outfit called the "The Heritage Foundation" Its some kind of conservative think tank and i am sure there are others. Believe me, if current world conditions don't change in 3 years and a Republican enters the White House in 2012, you will see names like Cheney,Rove, Wolfowitz, Perle etc, and we will have war with Iran. The Neocons desire control of the oil supply, which is going to be essential,if alternative energy sources aren't developed. However, what they fail to understand, is that the economy will collapse before hegemony is achieved. By focusing on hate triggers, they can mobilize a base who believe these guys are good Christians fighting God's war against Islam,gays,woman's rights and the imminent invasion of Genghis Rodriguez and his horde of Hispanic Huns waiting to wipe out Anglo Saxon dominance.
Of course, the far left has its agenda, too which appears to be socialist.These wackos,rather than using hate, lull us into security with promises of cradle to grave security, social equality and alot of other high moral objectives. However the agenda of these guys really isn't much different. Multinational corporations contribute to both sides and make sure their needs are met. Just look how Goldman Sachs controlled the Treasury dept in both the Bush and Obama administrations.
The majority of the world views America as The Evil Empire.
What may be happening is a change in the way we view and govern this planet. We went from tribes to cities, to city states , to one family kingdoms and finally to nation states. I believe we are beginning to see a decline in the nation state form of government and the beginnings of Multinational corporate entities that raise private armies and control territory. Welcome to the Christian Democratic Republic of Halliburton.

[Chreees]

What I find really funny is how the attitude of Fox News changed from from the transition from Bush to Obama. When Bush was president, they would tell people who came on the show, "NO! He is YOUR president. You call him MR. President." whenever some democrat would come on and call Bush just Bush. Now look- I don't see them making sure Obama gets the same respect. They would never dare put Bush in a negative light, because he was our president, and that'd be unpatriotic. Look what they do with Obama now. It's a totally different attitude, just because the man is from the other side. And it doesn't stop there... Don't believe in the war? You're un-American! Don't you dare tell Hannity or Beck or O' Reilly you don't think we should be over there in Iraq- they'll drill you for why you think that, then no matter what you tell them, no matter what LOGICAL argument you have, they'll just say you're wrong and that you're being unpatriotic. I know that's what my grandpa tells me. I just don't see how this mentality exists. I'm not Republican nor Democrat, liberal nor conservative... because I don't believe the two-party system works. If it ever did, it doesn't anymore. It is dead because they can't quit arguing amongst themselves long enough to get anything done. They're no longer able to respect each other. It's going to be the damn politicians' fault why we fail as a country. It sucks, but it's the truth. And there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

[jezter6]

Most truth we've seen in this section of the forum in a long time (the whole politicians being the downfall of america bit).

[Rani]

Looking deeper into it, I'm sort of starting to understand the desire to build the center there. The leader is actually an enemy of Hamas and terrorism. I can't remember his name from my reading late last night, but apparently he's a Sufi who preaches tolerance, refuses to get involved involved in politics, and near the top of their "hit list". So in a strange way, I can almost understand his choice of the location. If Islam took part in it's destruction, then Islam should be part of it't's rebuilding. He's an apparently very intelligent man, so I have to think he knows what he's up against. I'm feeling like over the long run, it might actually be a positive influence. But in the interim it's going to be difficult. Very difficult. For everyone.

'Rani

[jezter6]

Rani,

Any chance you can share a link or two about the Hamas connection?

So far as I've read, this guy has been relatively silent on Hamas.

[Rani]

[quote name='jezter6' timestamp='1282335567' post='479716']
Rani,

Any chance you can share a link or two about the Hamas connection?

So far as I've read, this guy has been relatively silent on Hamas.
[/quote]



I'll look again and see what links I can find. They were news reports, so they may or may not still be up. (Some news stuff seems to become impossible to find after a few hours.) He has remained silent but not just on Hamas. From what I read, he remains silent on [u]everything[/u] politically related. He apparently considers himself a spiritual leader and as such shouldn't be making comments on the politics.

I have to say as a shaman and ordained minister, the hardest thing in the world is to maintain an outward neutrality. You kind of have to disengage your personal side and come to regard just about everything in grey rather than black and white. It's not easy and for someone to maintain it effectively without slipping back into their own views on difficult issues, generally shows a strong sense of integrity as far as I'm concerned. I don't know the man personally (can't even remember his name this morning) but I know how difficult that particular task is The few Sufi I've met do tend to pull it off better than most of us though. It's something I work on myself every day - to consider even the bad stuff as a piece in the puzzle of a grander design.

'Rani

[judgeposer]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1282309279' post='479665']There is an agenda here and it has little to do with Obama's skin color, religion, gay rights or abortion. Those are triggers of hate that these people use to stir up their base. Its the same thing Josef Goebbels did in Nazi Germany. He perfected the big lie technique of propaganda, which is based on the principle that a lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will be believed by the masses. I often wonder why conservatives are against public education and support privatization. Only the rich get educated and the rest get Fox news.[/quote]

Let's not confuse Conservatives and Conservatism with the Republican party; similarly, the best conservative arguments should not confuse liberals as necessarily Democrats. The political spectrum is exactly that, a spectrum, and is also largely a generalized way of categorizing political and perhaps economic dispositions and sensibilities on various issues. Not all conservatives are Republican, and certainly not all Republicans are conservatives - of course there's some overlap, but the two are [i]not [/i]coterminous. One happens to be an ideology (conservative), whereas the other is a political party. The same is true of liberals and Democrats. Despite the frequent overlap, the two are not the same, nor should we treat or receive their arguments with the same force.

It seems un-thinking and less than honest to lump arguments that sometimes have the same conclusion together. Two arguments, both attempting to prove the same conclusion can vary in their reasonableness. So, whereas Fox News Channel does feature a majority of pundits who espouse conclusions that match those of most conservatives, those commentators can hardly be called "Conservative," inasmuch as they seek to enjoy that label. Nor do those pundits give the best articulated arguments. It's sound-bite media. Every channel offends the public in this way - they simply offend different portions of the public.

One of the foremost rules of logic is to receive arguments with charity, which is another way of saying do not commit the straw man fallacy, which is to choose to contend with the least sophisticated argument of the opposition or reduce the opposition's argument to a less than deserving form, especially when sophisticated arguments from one's ideological opposition exist. Conservatives do not take their best arguments from the likes of Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck, much the same liberals do not take their best arguments from Keith Olberman or Rachel Maddow. There are "intellectual" conservatives like Thomas Sowell, Bill Kristol, and Robert P. George, as there are "intellectual" liberals like Cass Sunstein, Samantha Powers, and even the likes of Andrew Sullivan (a social liberal, but fiscal conservative). Of course no one ever cites those names or those thinkers' arguments because they're too difficult to contend with. Rather, each "side" in a the ongoing cultural war chooses the ilk and worst representatives to oppose...because?

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1282309279' post='479665']If you listen , as I do sometimes, to their propaganda, you will find that there is a rather consistent message these guys are spouting. They use the same words, the same analogies, the same hate triggers. They get alot of this preprogrammed hate from an outfit called the "The Heritage Foundation" Its some kind of conservative think tank and i am sure there are others. Believe me, if current world conditions don't change in 3 years and a Republican enters the White House in 2012, you will see names like Cheney,Rove, Wolfowitz, Perle etc, and we will have war with Iran.[/quote]

The Heritage Foundation? - yeah? The Foundation is indeed a conservative think tank, but even a quick perusal of their literature shows a far more thoughtful and focused display of the conservative agenda, most often with rigorous arguments that enjoy routine citation, reference, and study. There are others like it, like the American Enterprise Institute, the Federalist Society (which isn't really a "think-tank" as such), and the Templeton Foundation, on the "right." There's also the groups of the "left," including the American Constitutional Society and the Center for American Progress. The number of conservative think tanks do seem to outnumber their liberal counterparts, but that's probably because conservative intellectuals have never had a home in American colleges and universities. That's probably thought for another thread, suffice it to say that these think tanks are home to serious thinkers who produce serious material, which may sometimes get bastardized and co-opted by similar, but less sophisticated thinkers, some of whom comment on FNC. Read their original stuff though, it stands leagues above the trash espoused by supposed "conservatives" and political operatives at home on the various news outlets.

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1282309279' post='479665']The Neocons desire control of the oil supply, which is going to be essential,if alternative energy sources aren't developed. However, what they fail to understand, is that the economy will collapse before hegemony is achieved. By focusing on hate triggers, they can mobilize a base who believe these guys are good Christians fighting God's war against Islam,gays,woman's rights and the imminent invasion of Genghis Rodriguez and his horde of Hispanic Huns waiting to wipe out Anglo Saxon dominance.[/quote]

Neocons! I thought that term died! Hardly anyone anymore wishes the label because of its association with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Nonetheless, the conglomerate of thinkers we can consider "neoconservative" span the religious and doctrinal spectrum; it's not about fighting a Christian war, I assure you.

[mustafabey]

The Imam's name is Feisal Abdul Rauf, he is from Kuwait. Here is a link to a Time magazine article on him.[url="http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2008432,00.html"]Imam[/url]

Here is an op ed from the New York Times that explains abit about Imam Abdul Rauf's Sufism

Having a Sufi down there is a powerful symbol to the Wahabi's that are trying to hijack Islam. This guy is a peacemaker, not the terrorist that Fox news would have you believe. Bin Laden and company won't be very happy about this.

[srawas89]

Alright, just to get some facts straight, There wont be a mosque per say in this large compound that is mainly a community center for everyone, There will be a prayer space for Muslims though. Anyway beyond that this compound has been in the process of getting the money together and permits before 9/11. I understand how people affected by the 9/11 attacks would feel but at the same time I feel like they need the mosque there because they need one in the area as there really is not one as far as I know. Now I think that there should be some kind of memorial for those who died on 9/11 and those who were affected by the attacks after it happened. As far as the claims of terrorism and all that its bogus. I honestly think that those who are against Islam for whatever reason are the ones trying to blow this out of proportion and giving us Muslims a bad name. I think that this community center is actually a good thing and the mosque will help show people the true face of Islam and not one commonly portrayed in the Media (i.e. terrorism and such).

my two cents

-Sammy Rawas

[joytron]

[quote name='srawas89' timestamp='1282368005' post='479764']
Alright, just to get some facts straight, There wont be a mosque per say in this large compound that is mainly a community center for everyone, There will be a prayer space for Muslims though. Anyway beyond that this compound has been in the process of getting the money together and permits before 9/11. I understand how people affected by the 9/11 attacks would feel but at the same time I feel like they need the mosque there because they need one in the area as there really is not one as far as I know. Now I think that there should be some kind of memorial for those who died on 9/11 and those who were affected by the attacks after it happened. As far as the claims of terrorism and all that its bogus. I honestly think that those who are against Islam for whatever reason are the ones trying to blow this out of proportion and giving us Muslims a bad name. I think that this community center is actually a good thing and the mosque will help show people the true face of Islam and not one commonly portrayed in the Media (i.e. terrorism and such).

my two cents

-Sammy Rawas
[/quote]

Really great post and I am glad you are bringing some facts to the table i was not aware of previously.

[mustafabey]

[url="http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/20/ahmed.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=Mid"]CNN[/url]I came across this op ed piece while surfing CNN. This op ed is addressing a Quran burning event that is scheduled to happen soon. Now I don't know what percentage of America supports this kind of action, or what conservative minds might think of it, but this is surely dangerous behavior. It is very obvious that there are those on both sides of these issues that would like to start some kind of holy war. I am sure that many conservative thinkers would denounce this kind of action, but there are some who revel in it. The same ones probably who call for using their "second amendment rights" to save this nation from Obama.

Here's the link[url="http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/20/ahmed.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=Mid"]CNN[/url]

[Chreees]

Wow, that's a VERY good article, mustafabey. Too bad Fox News wouldn't dare write something like that. I think they might even encourage it! We've gotta get these people to stop being so ignorant. It's going to kill us all otherwise...

[mustafabey]

INCUBUSRATM said: "We've gotta get these people to stop being so ignorant. It's going to kill us all otherwise.."

Amen

[Chreees]

Yeah, watching Fox News again today it really seems like they're blaming ALL of the Muslims. Why do they think this? Every other "news" channel I go to they say terrorists or Islam extremists, not just Muslims in general. I don't understand why Fox isn't being "politically correct." So much for fair and balanced...

I gotta change the channel...

[Rani]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' timestamp='1282416478' post='479793']
Yeah, watching Fox News again today it really seems like they're blaming ALL of the Muslims. Why do they think this? Every other "news" channel I go to they say terrorists or Islam extremists, not just Muslims in general. I don't understand why Fox isn't being "politically correct." So much for fair and balanced...

I gotta change the channel...
[/quote]

Probably a lot of you don't remember, but several years ago Fox used to be a nothing channel. They had nothing but reruns on of other shows, never anything new or creative. With American Idol, Hell's Kitchen, So You Think You Can Dance, etc., they've gotten very full of themselves and extremely arrogant about everything they do. They have read their own press too much and decided they're a major player in world events. The truth is, they're still just a crappy little television station the majority of the world doesn't even know exists.

'Rani