mustafabey Posted August 21, 2010 Author Share Posted August 21, 2010 The truth is that they are making tons of money peddling hate and in some versions of the "American dream" thats just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsmo Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 [quote name='INCUBUSRATM' timestamp='1282416478' post='479793'] Yeah, watching Fox News again today it really seems like they're blaming ALL of the Muslims. Why do they think this? Every other "news" channel I go to they say terrorists or Islam extremists, not just Muslims in general. I don't understand why Fox isn't being "politically correct." So much for fair and balanced... I gotta change the channel... [/quote] when i watch fox news it reminds me of the news company in v for vendetta, just openly preaching hate cloaked in their pursuit of patriotism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chreees Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 [quote name='ctsmo' timestamp='1282431472' post='479826'] [quote name='INCUBUSRATM' timestamp='1282416478' post='479793'] Yeah, watching Fox News again today it really seems like they're blaming ALL of the Muslims. Why do they think this? Every other "news" channel I go to they say terrorists or Islam extremists, not just Muslims in general. I don't understand why Fox isn't being "politically correct." So much for fair and balanced... I gotta change the channel... [/quote] when i watch fox news it reminds me of the news company in v for vendetta, just openly preaching hate cloaked in their pursuit of patriotism. [/quote] YES! Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScotsman Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Setting aside the facts that the building was damaged by heavy parts of the aircraft, parts that penetrated through the towers, exiting the opposite side, then the mosque builders get to capitalize on the fact the property has lost value as a result of structural damage caused by Islamic extremists. And the fact there is no "right" to build any church anywhere. Then ignoring the fact that turning a high-value piece of real estate into a building paying no property tax, while soaking up significant infrastructure resources not being the best idea for the local gov't financial stability; I am left with the question of just why the desire to provoke negative responses from the people of NY, and America, as a whole. Come on, naming it the "Cordoba Center"? Don't think the significance of that name was not apparent to more people that one would expect. A bit like pissing on an electric fence-some people have to try it to decide it's a bad idea. Planning that type of building there was intended as a confrontational action, and I think the majority of the USA is seeing it for just that. It is not the action of a "religion of peace" that just wants acceptance, peace, and harmony. Their actions, and their words are not in sync with eachother. In short, don't piss on my leg, and tell me it's raining. It seems to have been the kick to the hornets nest that the conservatives needed at this point. Once PEE-losi wanted to investigate the finances of 9/11 survivor families over their opposition to the project, they lost any benefit of doubt that the project had an innocent intent. It's one more step toward BHO being a one-term-wonder. NYC is a town you can't get anything done in without the unions. More than a few have voiced an opinion that building this mosque will cause allot of "flu" problems. If the unions decide it's not going up, it won't-end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafabey Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 So glad you decided to comment on this,Scotty, and although our views at times differ, I enjoy your commentary. Now, I see your point about provoking negative reactions among the people of NY, however the mayor seems to be in favor of the project. Could it be that Bloomberg, a Jew,having an awareness of what the lack of religious freedom brings, sees this side of the arguement as being more relevant than the mosque encroachment on to "sacred ground" or property tax revenues? Also, you bring up the name Cordoba Center, with a hint of some heinous meaning behind that name. Perhaps they intend to revive the Umayyad caliphate of Qurtuba.If that is the case, the I think the Spanish have more to worry about. The Cordoban state is sometimes seen as the one of the great golden ages of al Islam, puntcuated by by great scholastic energies,awesome architecture and an atmosphere of religious tolerence, unknown anywhere in Europe.We have met the Imam, he is a man of peace and reconciliation,he poses no threat of extremism and his view of Islam is quite opposed to Wahabi fundamentalism. Yet,I wish he would explain his motives more clearly(perhaps he has, that stuff isn't going to grab moneymaking headlines, so it gets buried). Babur, the Mughal emperor of India said " All evil, all good, in the count, is gain if looked at aright" Healing these wounds would be a great step for America and her dealings with Dar al Islam, for at present all we seem capable of doing is pouring more gasoline on the fires of ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScotsman Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 [quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1282483335' post='479873'] So glad you decided to comment on this,Scotty, and although our views at times differ, I enjoy your commentary. Now, I see your point about provoking negative reactions among the people of NY, however the mayor seems to be in favor of the project. Could it be that Bloomberg, a Jew,having an awareness of what the lack of religious freedom brings, sees this side of the arguement as being more relevant than the mosque encroachment on to "sacred ground" or property tax revenues? Also, you bring up the name Cordoba Center, with a hint of some heinous meaning behind that name. Perhaps they intend to revive the Umayyad caliphate of Qurtuba.If that is the case, the I think the Spanish have more to worry about. The Cordoban state is sometimes seen as the one of the great golden ages of al Islam, puntcuated by by great scholastic energies,awesome architecture and an atmosphere of religious tolerence, unknown anywhere in Europe.We have met the Imam, he is a man of peace and reconciliation,he poses no threat of extremism and his view of Islam is quite opposed to Wahabi fundamentalism. Yet,I wish he would explain his motives more clearly(perhaps he has, that stuff isn't going to grab moneymaking headlines, so it gets buried). Babur, the Mughal emperor of India said " All evil, all good, in the count, is gain if looked at aright" Healing these wounds would be a great step for America and her dealings with Dar al Islam, for at present all we seem capable of doing is pouring more gasoline on the fires of ignorance. [/quote] First... bloomberg is an idiot. If he is in favour of something, it's likely a bad idea. Healing the seemingly growing rift between mainstream US citizens, and Islam would be a good step. I don't see just how forcing a mosque into that area is going to do any healing. Rather quite the opposite. It isn't just the people of NYC that have a negative opinion of the project, it's all of the USA. The DA drug me to a garage sale, and the old ladies were loudly talking about how Islam was forcing itself on the people of the USA. (In all fareness, the old bats were also of the opinion that PBO was a Muslim. It was worth the stupidity I had to hear, I found 300-ish BF of 100 year old chestnut and walnut in 8/4, embarrassingly cheap) Cordoba reflects a Muslim invasion by force, into a Christian territory. (in the simplest possible terms) Iraqi-American Khudhayr Taher, in a 18-May article, explains the following: [indent]We must note that a hostile and provocative name [Cordoba] has been chosen for this mosque…Choosing the name 'Cordoba House' for the mosque to be constructed in New York was not coincidental or random and innocent. It bears within it significance and dreams of expansion and invasion [into the territory] of the other, [while] striving to change his religion and to subjugate him… [/indent] The USA isn't Europe. Maybe if anyone wants a European socio-economic model, they should get on a plane and go there. In the case of spain.... It may be an improvement. Better be a "green" mosque to stay with Spain's failed "green" economy theme! (intended as dry humor, no one get all butt-hurt) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafabey Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 Lets put Mr. Khudhayr Taher's comment in some perspective. The invasion of Spain was ordered by Musa ibn Nusair and he sent his Berber general Tarik ibn Zayid to Spain. Musa is forgotten in Islamic history, but Tarik lives on, his name attached to the mountain near where his troops landed. Jebel Tarik aka Gibraltar. The people living in Spain at the time were an amalgamation of Ibero-celts with a heavy overlay of Roman civilization and even some Carthaginian genes in their blood. Gaiseric passed thru with his vandals and reeked havoc in the 5th century, then moved on to North Africa to found a Vandal kingdom in Tunisia. The Visigothics swooped in from southern France and took the reins of government. So when Tarik arrived, Spain was rather mess and stood for neither Imperial Rome or Christendom. Tarik brought a civilization to a barbarian society and laid the foundations for the Spanish people. Again al Islam did not,as Western fantasy portrays, offer the Quran or the sword. Early Muslim states were much more interested in the revenue gained by the tax imposed on peoples of the book(Jews and Christians). Anyway I don't see Cordoba as provocative but I do have an ex fiancee in NY who thinks Bloomberg is an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScotsman Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 [quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1282490385' post='479886'] Lets put Mr. Khudhayr Taher's comment in some perspective. The invasion of Spain was ordered by Musa ibn Nusair and he sent his Berber general Tarik ibn Zayid to Spain. Musa is forgotten in Islamic history, but Tarik lives on, his name attached to the mountain near where his troops landed. Jebel Tarik aka Gibraltar. The people living in Spain at the time were an amalgamation of Ibero-celts with a heavy overlay of Roman civilization and even some Carthaginian genes in their blood. Gaiseric passed thru with his vandals and reeked havoc in the 5th century, then moved on to North Africa to found a Vandal kingdom in Tunisia. The Visigothics swooped in from southern France and took the reins of government. So when Tarik arrived, Spain was rather mess and stood for neither Imperial Rome or Christendom. Tarik brought a civilization to a barbarian society and laid the foundations for the Spanish people. Again al Islam did not,as Western fantasy portrays, offer the Quran or the sword. Early Muslim states were much more interested in the revenue gained by the tax imposed on peoples of the book(Jews and Christians). Anyway I don't see Cordoba as provocative but I do have an ex fiancee in NY who thinks Bloomberg is an idiot. [/quote] Calling it the "Cordoba center" is a bit like opening a cultural center here on the rez, and calling it the "Plymouth rock cultural center", or the "wounded knee church of Christ" Just a stupid move that is going to draw fire, of one form or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 O.K. well I have a few things that I feel I need to say that I have not seen anyone else post about -- admittedly I only read about half and skimmed through the others. First of all, anyone who calls the area where the mosque is going to be build "hallowed-ground" needs to be smacked. You know what other buildings are there either equi-distant or closer to ground zero than the mosque would be? How about a McDonald's on your holy ground? A symbol of american commercialism at its finest. Or how about a "gentlemen's club," truly having naked women running around in a hallowed space is perfectly fine but heaven forbid you let people pray near that spot; especially given that Christianity speaks of modesty on a higher level than Islam does! Second, yes, a lot of Americans suffered that day but have you forgotten that there are many groups of people and cultures that make up america? Do you realize that Muslims, arab, asian, white, black, ect -- muslims of all ethnicitis were beaten, tortured, harassed, threatened, assaulted because of the american media making all Muslims look like evil beings? What about them? Yes, ~3,000 people did lose their life in the Twin Towers and that is sad, but I can tell you that many, many more Muslims were abused/insulted/harassed in one way or another because of the aftermath. Finally, get over it. People keep talking about how it will open wounds and be a smack in the face of so many people -- seriously? What about the thousands of people who die every day because of Americans and "Christianity" in the third-world and in the wars that we fight 'for them." But don't forget when we invade their land kill their women and children we must sell them cell phones, coca-cola, sex, and then make them do cheap labor so we can sell their products for a 10,000% markup. We slap hundreds of thousands of people in the face every day and not many people care. If people think this mosque, a place of prayer, worship, peace, acceptance...is going to be a slap in the face then I say build it, and build it again, and again, because apparently people in america need slapped around a few times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rani Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 It has been mentioned that plans and permits were filed BEFORE 9/11. Considering how long it takes to take a commercial or public structure from conception to opening, it's entirely possible, even probable. If so, they have purchased the real estate BEFORE it decreased in value, etc. Are they supposed to take a loss on the existing location and also have to put out still more money to purchase and relocate to another piece of real estate in what is arguably one of the most expensive cities in the world to build in, because of a lunatic fringe who happen to share the same religion and use it as an excuse for their actions? To build a public access building in a highly populated city takes not only years but considerable, one could even say vast, sums of money. It would be punitive to hold one sect of Islam responsible for the actions of a small extremest group. If that's the case, let's hold you Scotsman personally responsible for what someone from Minnesota does. How about we still blame Spain for the Inquisition? The more I think about it, the more I come to feel that it's a strong act of courage and faith to stand in the face of controversy, and still choose to go forward with the intention create a center that will reach out to the community and show what they consider Islam to be. Not what a small group pretended it to be to justify their own insanity and hatred. 'Rani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rani Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 [quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1282488615' post='479885'] [quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1282483335' post='479873'] So glad you decided to comment on this,Scotty, and although our views at times differ, I enjoy your commentary. Now, I see your point about provoking negative reactions among the people of NY, however the mayor seems to be in favor of the project. Could it be that Bloomberg, a Jew,having an awareness of what the lack of religious freedom brings, sees this side of the arguement as being more relevant than the mosque encroachment on to "sacred ground" or property tax revenues? Also, you bring up the name Cordoba Center, with a hint of some heinous meaning behind that name. Perhaps they intend to revive the Umayyad caliphate of Qurtuba.If that is the case, the I think the Spanish have more to worry about. The Cordoban state is sometimes seen as the one of the great golden ages of al Islam, puntcuated by by great scholastic energies,awesome architecture and an atmosphere of religious tolerence, unknown anywhere in Europe.We have met the Imam, he is a man of peace and reconciliation,he poses no threat of extremism and his view of Islam is quite opposed to Wahabi fundamentalism. Yet,I wish he would explain his motives more clearly(perhaps he has, that stuff isn't going to grab moneymaking headlines, so it gets buried). Babur, the Mughal emperor of India said " All evil, all good, in the count, is gain if looked at aright" Healing these wounds would be a great step for America and her dealings with Dar al Islam, for at present all we seem capable of doing is pouring more gasoline on the fires of ignorance. [/quote] First... bloomberg is an idiot. If he is in favour of something, it's likely a bad idea. Healing the seemingly growing rift between mainstream US citizens, and Islam would be a good step. I don't see just how forcing a mosque into that area is going to do any healing. Rather quite the opposite. It isn't just the people of NYC that have a negative opinion of the project, it's all of the USA. The DA drug me to a garage sale, and the old ladies were loudly talking about how Islam was forcing itself on the people of the USA. (In all fareness, the old bats were also of the opinion that PBO was a Muslim. It was worth the stupidity I had to hear, I found 300-ish BF of 100 year old chestnut and walnut in 8/4, embarrassingly cheap) Cordoba reflects a Muslim invasion by force, into a Christian territory. (in the simplest possible terms) Iraqi-American Khudhayr Taher, in a 18-May article, explains the following: [indent]We must note that a hostile and provocative name [Cordoba] has been chosen for this mosque…Choosing the name 'Cordoba House' for the mosque to be constructed in New York was not coincidental or random and innocent. It bears within it significance and dreams of expansion and invasion [into the territory] of the other, [while] striving to change his religion and to subjugate him… [/indent] The USA isn't Europe. Maybe if anyone wants a European socio-economic model, they should get on a plane and go there. In the case of spain.... It may be an improvement. Better be a "green" mosque to stay with Spain's failed "green" economy theme! (intended as dry humor, no one get all butt-hurt) [/quote] It becomes more and more my observation that people simply want to bitch. They don't care whether it's about the color of the sky, most popular religion of the moment, or the latest video game. People seem to be so caught up in being unhappy that they have to find something to complain about rather than open themselves up to new information, new experiences, new concepts, new people. Diversity above all else brings knowledge and experience if you allow yourself to open your eyes to it. My cat Kabuki thinks I'm in charge of the universe. I'm supreme Goddess of his world who can fix anything as far as he's concerned. So if anything from the food in his dish to a heat wave isn't to his liking he's going to sit in my lap and bitch about it until it's fixed to his satisfaction. And then he's going to find something else to bitch about. The general public more and more reminds me of Kabuki. 12.4 pounds and a brain the side of a plum, but arrogant enough to think it all has to be his way. He's wrong. And so are people. Anybody see the movie "Legion"? Remember the line where the baby's mother tells the story about God just getting tired of all the bullshit? 'Rani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chreees Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 You're exactly right, Rani. And I really liked that movie, btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) another point of view Ray [center][b]Cordoba House[/b][/center] Statement on the Proposed "Cordoba House" Mosque near Ground Zero By: Newt Gingrich July 21, 2010 6pm There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia . The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over. The proposed "Cordoba House" overlooking the World Trade Center site – where a group of jihadists killed over 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks - is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example, most of them don't understand that "Cordoba House" is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world's third-largest mosque complex. Today, some of the Mosque's backers insist this term is being used to "symbolize interfaith cooperation" when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way. Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for "religious toleration" are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City . Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia . In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca . And they lecture us about tolerance. If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign. We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history. Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources. America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could. No mosque. No self deception. No surrender. The time to take a stand is now - at this site on this issue. Edited August 25, 2010 by Venger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafabey Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 looks like ole Newt is running for president! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafabey Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 I was just thinking about all this mosque controversy. I remember a couple years back, 2001 to be exact, when the towers were attacked, their was this guy named Osama bin Laden. I think they said he was responsible for this. I guess they were wrong because we've all but forgotten Osama and now we can find Muslims right here in the good ole USA who we can demonize. Why doesn't someone just Osama? Is America, with all her might, her weapons systems,CIA,DIA,FBI,NSA and a host of other sinister anacronymic agencies, unable to finish this thing, and why are we turning into a world wide thing. Al Qaeda in Pakistan, Afghanistan,Yemen, the Maghreb, Somalia and our government, either party, take your choice says,al Qaeda is on its last legs. I just ordered a book by Jeremy Keenan, a British anthropologist, who, while doing research among the Tuareg in Algeria, Mali, and Niger came up with a theory that Al Qaeda in the Maghreb(AQIM) was created by Algerian and American intelligence in order to introduce troops into the area. The reasoning being with troops in place America would be ready to seize the Nigerian oil fields. Is all this just a prelude to fast approaching day when our oil supplies can no longer keep pace with demand. What a frigging war thats gonna be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rani Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Venger' timestamp='1282742638' post='480224'] another point of view Ray [center][b]Cordoba House[/b][/center] Statement on the Proposed "Cordoba House" Mosque near Ground Zero By: Newt Gingrich [color="#FF0000"][b]Now showing himself for the total jackass he is.[/b][/color] July 21, 2010 6pm There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia . The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over. [color="#FF0000"][b]Saudi Arabia doesn't have religious freedom as the foundation of it's culture, nor was it's entire creation due to the pursuit of religious freedom. eitherr does it have our constitution guaranteeing that very same freedom. But hey, so long as some people think it's painful, let's go ahead and throw the damn thing out since it's so inconvenient right now. It was certainly overlooked when stripping Native Americans of their religious freedom and even their language, so I guess it's okay now, right? [/b][/color] The proposed "Cordoba House" overlooking the World Trade Center site – where a group of jihadists killed over 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks - is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example, most of them don't understand that "Cordoba House" is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world's third-largest mosque complex. [color="#FF0000"][b]So Christians are more important that Muslims????? Jerusalem was built on the bones of both Jews and Muslims. Did the Crusades not drive a point home? How about the Spanish Inquisition? Was that okay because the Catholic faith was right and the Protestants were wrong? So Hitler blaming the Jews for everything, that must have been okay too. Only his religion had value right? [/b][/color] Today, some of the Mosque's backers insist this term is being used to "symbolize interfaith cooperation" when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way. Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for "religious toleration" are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City . Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia . In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca . And they lecture us about tolerance. [color="#FF0000"] [b]As has been mentioned before it's not a mosque - it's a center for studies. But that's neither here nor there. The fact remains that we endorse Israel while decrying Muslim nations. Religious freedom seems to be applicable only when it's convenient or it's "our": religion. [/b][/color] If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign.[color="#FF0000"] [b]I've b een to various parts of the Middle East though not Saudi specifically. There's ARE churches and even synagogues here and there. Not to the extent there are mosques, but they do still exist, and there are still missionaries in Middle Eastern territories. They manage to practice acceptance of each other, but it the center of what we hypocritically clam is the center of religious tolerance we can't do it? [/b][/color] We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history.[color="#FF0000"] [b]Let's be honest shall we? The reason the World Trade Center hasn't been rebuilt is because the powers that be are too busy fighting over what will and won't be erected in it's site. It's about money, nothing more, nothing less. [/b][/color] Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources. America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could. [color="#FF0000"][b]Religious organizations are not required to reveal their funding sources. Here we go with that inconvenient little one law applies to us, another to the other guy. [/b][/color] No mosque. No self deception. No surrender. The time to take a stand is now - at this site on this issue. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"][b]I'm about as against "organized religion" as anyone can possible be. I find that people take our need for ritual and acceptance and turn it into their personal power behind the pulpit. And they make money off the faithful while doing it. But you can't have it both ways. You can't defend freedom and then set it aside when it's inconvenient or even painful. Unless we're going to just admit we're hypocrites in which case we need to declare a national religion, strip all protection from those churches that aren't owned by the nationally endorsed faith and just get it over with. [/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"][b] [/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"][b]Newt, one again you prove you're a jackass who shouldn't be elected dog-catcher.[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"][b] [/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"][b]'Rani[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazar Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) Two articles from Hitchens: [quote] [b]Mau-Mauing the Mosque[/b] The dispute over the "Ground Zero mosque" is an object lesson in how not to resist intolerance. By Christopher Hitchens Posted Monday, Aug. 9, 2010, at 2:07 PM ET The dispute over the construction of an Islamic center at "Ground Zero" in Lower Manhattan has now sunk to a level of stupidity that really does shame the memory and the victims of that terrible day in September 2001. One might think that a mosque or madrassa was being proposed in the place of the fallen towers themselves or atop the atomized ingredients of what was once a mass grave. (In point of fact, the best we have been able to do with the actual site, after almost a decade, is to create a huge, noisy, and dirty pit with almost no visible architectural progress. Perhaps resentment at the relative speed of the proposed Cordoba House is a subconscious by-product of embarrassment at this local and national disgrace.) I don't like anything much about the Cordoba Initiative or the people who run it. The supposed imam of the place, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is on record as saying various shady and creepy things about the original atrocity. Shortly after 9/11, he told 60 Minutes, "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." He added, "In the most direct sense, Osama Bin Laden is made in the USA." More recently, he has declined to identify the racist and totalitarian Hamas party as being guilty of the much less severe designation of terrorist. We are all familiar by now with the peddlers of such distortions and euphemisms and evasions, many of them repeated by half-baked secular and Christian spokesmen. A widespread cultural cringe impels many people to the half-belief that it's better to accommodate "moderates" like Rauf as a means of diluting the challenge of the real thing. So for the sake of peace and quiet, why not have Comedy Central censor itself or the entire U.S. press refuse to show the Danish cartoons? This kind of capitulation needs to be fought consistently. But here is exactly how not to resist it. Take, for example, the widely publicized opinion of Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Supporting those relatives of the 9/11 victims who have opposed Cordoba House, he drew a crass analogy with the Final Solution and said that, like Holocaust survivors, "their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted." This cracked tune has been taken up by Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, who additionally claim to be ventriloquizing the emotions of millions of Americans who did not suffer bereavement. It has also infected the editorial pages of the normally tougher-minded Weekly Standard, which called on President Obama to denounce the Cordoba House on the grounds that a 3-to-1 majority of Americans allegedly find it "offensive." Where to start with this part-pathetic and part-sinister appeal to demagogy? To begin with, it borrows straight from the playbook of Muslim cultural blackmail. Claim that something is "offensive," and it is as if the assertion itself has automatically become an argument. You are even allowed to admit, as does Foxman, that the ground for taking offense is "irrational and bigoted." But, hey—why think when you can just feel? The supposed "feelings" of the 9/11 relatives have already deprived us all of the opportunity to see the real-time footage of the attacks—a huge concession to the general dulling of what ought to be a sober and continuous memory of genuine outrage. Now extra privileges have to be awarded to an instant opinion-poll majority. Not only that, the president is urged to use his high office to decide questions of religious architecture! Nothing could be more foreign to the spirit and letter of the First Amendment or the principle of the "wall of separation." In his incoherent statement, Foxman made the suggestion that it might be all right if the Cordoba House was built "a mile away." He appears to be unaware that an old building at the site is already housing overflow from the nearby Masjid al-Farah mosque. I notice that even the choice of the name Cordoba has offended some Christian opponents of the scheme. This wonderful city in Andalusia, after the Muslim conquest of southern Spain, was indeed one of the centers of the lost Islamic caliphate that today's jihadists have sworn in blood to restore. And after the Catholic reconquista, it was also one of the places purged of all Arab and Jewish influence by the founders of the Inquisition. But in the interval between these two imperialisms it was also the site of an astonishing cultural synthesis, best associated with the names of Averroes ibn-Rushd and Moses Maimonides. (The finest recent book on the subject is María Rosa Menocal's The Ornament of the World.) Here was a flourishing of philosophy and medicine and architecture that saw, among other things, the recovery of the works of Aristotle. We need not automatically assume the good faith of those who have borrowed this noble name for a project in lower Manhattan. One would want assurances, also, about the transparency of its funding and the content of its educational programs. But the way to respond to such overtures is by critical scrutiny and engagement, not cheap appeals to parochialism, victimology, and unreason.[/quote] [url="http://www.slate.com/id/2263334/"]Link[/url] [quote]Two weeks ago, I wrote that the arguments against the construction of the Cordoba Initiative center in lower Manhattan were so stupid and demagogic as to be beneath notice. Things have only gone further south since then, with Newt Gingrich's comparison to a Nazi sign outside the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum or (take your pick from the grab bag of hysteria) a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor. The first of those pseudo-analogies is wrong in every possible way, in that the Holocaust museum already contains one of the most coolly comprehensive guides to the theory and practice of the Nazi regime in existence, including special exhibits on race theory and party ideology and objective studies of the conditions that brought the party to power. As for the second, there has long been a significant Japanese-American population in Hawaii, and I can't see any reason why it should not place a cultural center anywhere on the islands that it chooses. From the beginning, though, I pointed out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf was no great bargain and that his Cordoba Initiative was full of euphemisms about Islamic jihad and Islamic theocracy. I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center and his refusal to take a position on the racist Hamas dictatorship in Gaza. The more one reads through his statements, the more alarming it gets. For example, here is Rauf's editorial on the upheaval that followed the brutal hijacking of the Iranian elections in 2009. Regarding President Obama, he advised that: He should say his administration respects many of the guiding principles of the 1979 revolution—to establish a government that expresses the will of the people; a just government, based on the idea of Vilayet-i-faquih, that establishes the rule of law. Coyly untranslated here (perhaps for "outreach" purposes), Vilayet-i-faquih is the special term promulgated by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to describe the idea that all of Iranian society is under the permanent stewardship (sometimes rendered as guardianship) of the mullahs. Under this dispensation, "the will of the people" is a meaningless expression, because "the people" are the wards and children of the clergy. It is the justification for a clerical supreme leader, whose rule is impervious to elections and who can pick and choose the candidates and, if it comes to that, the results. It is extremely controversial within Shiite Islam. (Grand Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq, for example, does not endorse it.) As for those numerous Iranians who are not Shiites, it reminds them yet again that they are not considered to be real citizens of the Islamic Republic. I do not find myself reassured by the fact that Imam Rauf publicly endorses the most extreme and repressive version of Muslim theocracy. The letterhead of the statement, incidentally, describes him as the Cordoba Initiative's "Founder and Visionary." Why does that not delight me, either? Emboldened by the crass nature of the opposition to the center, its defenders have started to talk as if it represented no problem at all and as if the question were solely one of religious tolerance. It would be nice if this were true. But tolerance is one of the first and most awkward questions raised by any examination of Islamism. We are wrong to talk as if the only subject was that of terrorism. As Western Europe has already found to its cost, local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything "offensive" to Islam. Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools. The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter … As for the gorgeous mosaic of religious pluralism, it's easy enough to find mosque Web sites and DVDs that peddle the most disgusting attacks on Jews, Hindus, Christians, unbelievers, and other Muslims—to say nothing of insane diatribes about women and homosexuals. This is why the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be "phobic." A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational. From my window, I can see the beautiful minaret of the Washington, D.C., mosque on Massachusetts Avenue. It is situated at the heart of the capital city's diplomatic quarter, and it is where President Bush went immediately after 9/11 to make his gesture toward the "religion of peace." A short while ago, the wife of a new ambassador told me that she had been taking her dog for a walk when a bearded man accosted her and brusquely warned her not to take the animal so close to the sacred precincts. Muslim cabdrivers in other American cities have already refused to take passengers with "unclean" canines. Another feature of my local mosque that I don't entirely like is the display of flags outside, purportedly showing all those nations that are already Muslim. Some of these flags are of countries like Malaysia, where Islam barely has a majority, or of Turkey, which still has a secular constitution. At the United Nations, the voting bloc of the Organization of the Islamic Conference nations is already proposing a resolution that would circumscribe any criticism of religion in general and of Islam in particular. So, before he is used by our State Department on any more goodwill missions overseas, I would like to see Imam Rauf asked a few searching questions about his support for clerical dictatorship in, just for now, Iran. Let us by all means make the "Ground Zero" debate a test of tolerance. But this will be a one-way street unless it is to be a test of Muslim tolerance as well. [/quote] [url="http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/"]Link[/url] Edited August 25, 2010 by Balthazar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsmo Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 this is fox news for you [img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif[/img] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/23/stewart-fox-prince-alwaleed_n_692234.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judgeposer Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Balthazar' timestamp='1282761681' post='480248'] Two articles from Hitchens: [. . . ] [url="http://www.slate.com/id/2263334/"]Link[/url] [url="http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/"]Link[/url] [/quote] [b]Thanks [/b]for sharing these two pieces - awesome analysis, as Hitchens usually produces. Even at death's door, he's sharp! I particularly like his argument that any criticism leveled against Islam or this project specifically doesn't necessarily equate to religious intolerance or "Islamophobia." I do like also his dismantling of the analogy of Nazi symbolism at Holocaust memorials. My only disagreement is with his attempt to refute the analogy of Japanese cultural centers at Pearl Harbor, which he acknowledges does not exist, but that he doesn't see why not. The reason why not is perhaps something he misses in the behavior of the majority Japanese-American demographic of Hawaii and Pearl Harbor, which is [i]restraint[/i]. No one has come out saying that such centers should not be built (probably because they're not planned to be built I would assume), but I would (also) assume that if Japanese Americans wanted such a center, they would have attempted to build one already. Their restraint on the matter speaks volumes. Let's note too, overall, he doesn't at all defend the mosque's construction, rather, he distinguishes those arguments so far employed against (and sometimes for) it. Edited August 25, 2010 by judgeposer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafabey Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 maybe we can't find Osama but, man, we got this guy! Good work America! Now thats patriotism!! [url="http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/26/new.york.muslim.stabbed/index.html?hpt=T2"]good going link[/url] I find it amazing that all this noise is about God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhxKarma Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 While I may not agree with the buildings location, it's still their right as a citizen to build it there and practive their faith. We go around the world building chruches in other countries, and they don't necessiarly like it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David J Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 What are people so affraid of? If it was a church be build would there be all this controversy? I think not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClearwaterGuy Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 To be fair, in Iraq and Afghanistan, we sure put a lot of ground zeros next to their mosques. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafabey Posted September 2, 2010 Author Share Posted September 2, 2010 Found this on the Daily Beast. [url="http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/ground-zero-mosque-controversy-america-has-disgraced-itself/?cid=outbrain:external&obref=obnetwork"]Beast[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 [quote name='ClearwaterGuy' timestamp='1282931335' post='480505'] To be fair, in Iraq and Afghanistan, we sure put a lot of ground zeros next to their mosques. [/quote] Did anyone build synogogues or churches on the wreckage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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