"Ground Zero" Mosque?

[Venger]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1283921316' post='481579']
It is curious that city officials seem to fasttrack the mosque project while continuing to throw roadblocks in front of the effort to rebuild the St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church that was buried in the rubble.
[/quote]

follow the money
Ray

[TheScotsman]

game over. Pound the stake in, that vampire is dead.


It's not getting built there.

He doesn't have the $$
he has alienated and offended the majority of the American public (or so it would appear by the polls), in the process permenantly damaging American/Muslim relations.
Most of all, between his mouth flapping-blaming the USA for 9/11, openly threatening America, and the fact he is associated with extreme assholes, it's done... at least at that address.


It would appear, by his words, he knows it to.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1284510245' post='482199']
game over. Pound the stake in, that vampire is dead.


It's not getting built there.

He doesn't have the $
he has alienated and offended the majority of the American public (or so it would appear by the polls), in the process permenantly damaging American/Muslim relations.
Most of all, between his mouth flapping-blaming the USA for 9/11, openly threatening America, and the fact he is associated with extreme assholes, it's done... at least at that address.


It would appear, by his words, he knows it to.
[/quote]

Gotta love you Scotsman. You figure if you say something over and over and over again, Poof! Bang! Alacazam! It will be true. (You were the kind of kid who stuck to his story even when your Mom caught you red handed, huh?)

Nope. He's never been aligned with extremists, and he never said what you're stating here. But plenty of people are twisting his words out of context and trying to make them say what they want. Kinda like you sometimes do with us here.

.He's a Sufi. You know? The guys who happen to be into the mystical and spiritual end of Islam? Never been an extremist Sufi I've ever head of and I've known quite a few. Apparently Americans don't want him to build his cultural center in that location. Extremist Muslims? They want him dead.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284524839' post='482208']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1284510245' post='482199']
game over. Pound the stake in, that vampire is dead.


It's not getting built there.

He doesn't have the $
he has alienated and offended the majority of the American public (or so it would appear by the polls), in the process permenantly damaging American/Muslim relations.
Most of all, between his mouth flapping-blaming the USA for 9/11, openly threatening America, and the fact he is associated with extreme assholes, it's done... at least at that address.


It would appear, by his words, he knows it to.
[/quote]

Gotta love you Scotsman. You figure if you say something over and over and over again, Poof! Bang! Alacazam! It will be true. (You were the kind of kid who stuck to his story even when your Mom caught you red handed, huh?)

Nope. He's never been aligned with extremists, and he never said what you're stating here. But plenty of people are twisting his words out of context and trying to make them say what they want. Kinda like you sometimes do with us here.

.He's a Sufi. You know? The guys who happen to be into the mystical and spiritual end of Islam? Never been an extremist Sufi I've ever head of and I've known quite a few. Apparently Americans don't want him to build his cultural center in that location. Extremist Muslims? They want him dead.

'Rani
[/quote]

Is this some item you got from Fox news? I have heard nothing on the real news channels regarding the Cultural Center not being built for lack of funds. Yes,Rani, repeating the same stuff over and over again is a well used tactic these days. If you say it enough it become true. Perhaps, Scotsman, you should do a little research on Sufi beliefs. You will find these peaceful people are an anathema to the Salafist crowd. The sad thing is that all this hatred generated by this issue and the Quran burning preacher has already caused the deaths of people in demonstrations in Pakistan. To say nothing of what its done to America's reputation in the Islamic world. If radical Islam is to be defused, it will be with the help of the main stream Islamic community. You philosophy seems to echo a phrase I heard in Vietnam, "kill em all, let god sort it out" How nice

[srawas89]

From what I understand the Imam that has been at the front of all this is about the most moderate Muslim you can find, the kind of Moderate Muslim that the USA needs to help build positive ties with the Global Islamic Community. I understand I may be biased due to my religious beliefs but I truly believe that we have to stand up and build this center because if we back down now the next thing you know is that any large cultural center with a mosque attached to it will not be allowed to be built. I believe this because if we back down at this point it will be like they can push us around for a long time. Even now with all this negative media attention there has been an effect on building Large cultural centers with mosques in places where they are needed for the Muslim community in the Area.

I have been living in Cincinnati since I was about 4-5 years old. I have been raised here. When I first came here we had a small mosque downtown and it was literally a House with a room for prayer. Not even a mosque. Now there is a right beside this house and they do what they can to help the community around them. I think when I was 8 years old an Islamic cultural center was built about 20 min north of my house. This center is quite large, they have a Sunday school and a gym where many social events are held to help bring the community closer together. Every time I go there I meet someone new because this is the point of this kind of center it brings people together. I have made long time friends there. You have to realize that what we did, social events like playing in a basketball league learning etc. was meant to help us grow into quality members of the society. I believe this cultural center is crucial in bringing out more active members of the society be it Muslim or Non-Muslim, as long people are helping others do increase their quality of living. I know from personal experience the kind of experience from going to a cultural center like this. We were taught moderate Muslim views (sometimes it was leaning a little tough but mainly moderate). We were always taught to treat others with respect and to not judge them before we know them. One of the most important lessons I learned while going to this cultural center was that even though as Muslims we believe that our way is the best way to end up in heaven in the afterlife anyone with an ounce of faith in God will eventually end up in Heaven, though we will have to pay for our sins in Hell at first (barring you don't do something entirely unforgivable like suicide)

Let this center be built and then after a while decide whether this cultural center will be the spawn of a new terrorist cell or insensitive to those of 9/11. Any may I remind all of you that Muslim-Americans died on that day as well. We need to grow from this tragedy and realize that we can become stronger as a nation but it will not happen if we are stuck on something that makes us feel uneasy because thats what growth is, getting over the stuff that makes you feel a bit uneasy.

I hope I didn't jump around too much in my post as far as what I wanted to say and I hope I got my message out clear.

[Rani]

[quote name='srawas89' timestamp='1284692049' post='482372']
From what I understand the Imam that has been at the front of all this is about the most moderate Muslim you can find, the kind of Moderate Muslim that the USA needs to help build positive ties with the Global Islamic Community. I understand I may be biased due to my religious beliefs but I truly believe that we have to stand up and build this center because if we back down now the next thing you know is that any large cultural center with a mosque attached to it will not be allowed to be built. I believe this because if we back down at this point it will be like they can push us around for a long time. Even now with all this negative media attention there has been an effect on building Large cultural centers with mosques in places where they are needed for the Muslim community in the Area.

I have been living in Cincinnati since I was about 4-5 years old. I have been raised here. When I first came here we had a small mosque downtown and it was literally a House with a room for prayer. Not even a mosque. Now there is a right beside this house and they do what they can to help the community around them. I think when I was 8 years old an Islamic cultural center was built about 20 min north of my house. This center is quite large, they have a Sunday school and a gym where many social events are held to help bring the community closer together. Every time I go there I meet someone new because this is the point of this kind of center it brings people together. I have made long time friends there. You have to realize that what we did, social events like playing in a basketball league learning etc. was meant to help us grow into quality members of the society. I believe this cultural center is crucial in bringing out more active members of the society be it Muslim or Non-Muslim, as long people are helping others do increase their quality of living. I know from personal experience the kind of experience from going to a cultural center like this. We were taught moderate Muslim views (sometimes it was leaning a little tough but mainly moderate). We were always taught to treat others with respect and to not judge them before we know them. One of the most important lessons I learned while going to this cultural center was that even though as Muslims we believe that our way is the best way to end up in heaven in the afterlife anyone with an ounce of faith in God will eventually end up in Heaven, though we will have to pay for our sins in Hell at first (barring you don't do something entirely unforgivable like suicide)

Let this center be built and then after a while decide whether this cultural center will be the spawn of a new terrorist cell or insensitive to those of 9/11. Any may I remind all of you that Muslim-Americans died on that day as well. We need to grow from this tragedy and realize that we can become stronger as a nation but it will not happen if we are stuck on something that makes us feel uneasy because thats what growth is, getting over the stuff that makes you feel a bit uneasy.

I hope I didn't jump around too much in my post as far as what I wanted to say and I hope I got my message out clear.
[/quote]

Very well said and thank you.

;Rani

[mustafabey]

For a long time now the right wing of American politics has been using fear as a force to energize voters. Fear is an old political motivator. First it was the Indians, scalping and raping their way across the Eastern mountains. History tells us that many settlers incorporated into tribal societies refused to be reunited until Col. Bouquet insisted on it after the French and Indian war and Pontiac's rebellion. The Confederacy would never have held out for as long as it did if it hadn't formed large state and local militias in response to abolitionist activities and John Brown. That fear was so ingrained that it still exists today. But fear as an ultimate political tool was given its high form by Joe McCarthy in the 50's. The Communists were coming and we all had to hide under our new aluminum and formica desks. Perhaps that is one reason the right tends to portray Obama as a marxist,socialist, communist. Those fears are still there. After Islam replaced communism as the enemy engine to drive expansionist capitalism, a whole new set of lies was repeated over and over again. Listen to Fox or talk radio and you will see that they believe every Islamic cultural center is going to include classrooms to teach terror. It is not in the interest of right wing politics to acknowledge the existence of moderate mainstream Islam. About the only product America sells on the world market thesedays with a vengence is weapons systems and without war and hatred, profits would plunge for corporations like Halliburton.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1284730279' post='482396']
For a long time now the right wing of American politics has been using fear as a force to energize voters. Fear is an old political motivator. First it was the Indians, scalping and raping their way across the Eastern mountains. History tells us that many settlers incorporated into tribal societies refused to be reunited until Col. Bouquet insisted on it after the French and Indian war and Pontiac's rebellion. The Confederacy would never have held out for as long as it did if it hadn't formed large state and local militias in response to abolitionist activities and John Brown. That fear was so ingrained that it still exists today. But fear as an ultimate political tool was given its high form by Joe McCarthy in the 50's. The Communists were coming and we all had to hide under our new aluminum and formica desks. Perhaps that is one reason the right tends to portray Obama as a marxist,socialist, communist. Those fears are still there. After Islam replaced communism as the enemy engine to drive expansionist capitalism, a whole new set of lies was repeated over and over again. Listen to Fox or talk radio and you will see that they believe every Islamic cultural center is going to include classrooms to teach terror. It is not in the interest of right wing politics to acknowledge the existence of moderate mainstream Islam. About the only product America sells on the world market thesedays with a vengence is weapons systems and without war and hatred, profits would plunge for corporations like Halliburton.
[/quote]

Much as I dislike the "rabid right", I'm not certain that we can entirely blame right wing politics. You have people, even when they are politicians, seeing and hearing only what's available to them. Sure, national politicians get information we the general public do not but on top of that, they also get the same thing from media that we get. Every time there's a press conference, some junior reporter is trying to make a name for themselves by asking at least leading if not outright combative questions. I think our media is the biggest culprit. If a high ranking politician for example gets a report from the Office of Homeland Security that says they stopped x number of attacks in the planning stages, that politician has more information than the general public. So there's a wariness to begin with. Add to that a media trying to blow everything out of proportion in oder to sell advertising and gather an audience to sell more advertising, and you have a wary mentality then being jacked to the point the point of near hysteria. Pushing someone to the point of hysteria when they actually have some power to indulge that hysteria is only going to end badly. Hitler could have been safely hysterical as much as he wanted and caused no harm except that he was elevated into a position of power to display and implement his hysteria. Our politicians are not that much different. Driven to the point of unreasoning hatred and having the power to spread it. Bottom line is, muzzle the media in a way that limits them to reporting actual facts, and you'd have an entirely different climate. Of course the National Enquirer would go out of business and we can't have that apparently.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Right wing politics in itself is a creation. I think certain right wingers fall into their own traps. The powers that be behind right politics, I believe, are multinational expansionist capitalist entities. The military industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about in 1960, energy companies, global institutions like the World Bank and IMF. Capitalism,in order to succeed must grow and it has now grown beyond the world of business. It eats nations these days. The water wars in Bolivia is one example, where Bechtel tried to buy up the water rights(including rain water) and then increase the price of water 50%. The World Bank and IMF advise third world nations to privatize their assets and industries to secure loans , thus putting their natural resources in the hands of others. Its just a continuation of the colonial exploitation of the 19th century. An example, so well demonstrated by Gandhi, was the making of salt. Britain had gotten hold of the salt monopoly and sold India British empire salt, it was even illegal to go to the seashore to make your own. As we enter the 21st century, it is becoming evident that nation states are beginning to decline as the global political model. Multinational corporations now have their own armies and intelligence and owe no allegience to a nation. What is happening in America today, is what has happened in the third world. A restructuring of the economy to make that nation dependent on the multi national. It cares nothing about Islam, evangelical Christianity, gay rights, etc. those issues are just used to energize the electorate. I'm sure the economic recession we are in now has more to do with stealing middle class wealth than any housing bubble. We have allowed our assets to be managed by others.I lost $150,000 + in the recession and i don't believe that money has evaporated. It was invested by Bank of America( I have almost no control). Social security is the next thing we are going to lose. We paid our money in and someone else is going to spend it.
I reckon its all going to come to head this century as the whole system has driven billions into poverty, screwed up the enviroment, bought up water supplies and finding out their money making engine is running out of oil. Times like this I am glad i am old.I used to think it wouldn't touch my generation, but i was wrong. If people don't get off their reality show induce asses and take back control, its going to be a very different world in 2050

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1284746523' post='482409']
Right wing politics in itself is a creation. I think certain right wingers fall into their own traps. The powers that be behind right politics, I believe, are multinational expansionist capitalist entities. The military industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about in 1960, energy companies, global institutions like the World Bank and IMF. Capitalism,in order to succeed must grow and it has now grown beyond the world of business. It eats nations these days. The water wars in Bolivia is one example, where Bechtel tried to buy up the water rights(including rain water) and then increase the price of water 50%. The World Bank and IMF advise third world nations to privatize their assets and industries to secure loans , thus putting their natural resources in the hands of others. Its just a continuation of the colonial exploitation of the 19th century. An example, so well demonstrated by Gandhi, was the making of salt. Britain had gotten hold of the salt monopoly and sold India British empire salt, it was even illegal to go to the seashore to make your own. As we enter the 21st century, it is becoming evident that nation states are beginning to decline as the global political model. Multinational corporations now have their own armies and intelligence and owe no allegience to a nation. What is happening in America today, is what has happened in the third world. A restructuring of the economy to make that nation dependent on the multi national. It cares nothing about Islam, evangelical Christianity, gay rights, etc. those issues are just used to energize the electorate. I'm sure the economic recession we are in now has more to do with stealing middle class wealth than any housing bubble. We have allowed our assets to be managed by others.I lost $150,000 + in the recession and i don't believe that money has evaporated. It was invested by Bank of America( I have almost no control). Social security is the next thing we are going to lose. We paid our money in and someone else is going to spend it.
I reckon its all going to come to head this century as the whole system has driven billions into poverty, screwed up the enviroment, bought up water supplies and finding out their money making engine is running out of oil. Times like this I am glad i am old.I used to think it wouldn't touch my generation, but i was wrong. If people don't get off their reality show induce asses and take back control, its going to be a very different world in 2050
[/quote]

You held BOA???? that place has been a crap-storm looking for an outhouse for well over 10 years! There were strong indications of A/D ratios in the insane area well back to just past the dot-com debacle. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I remember looking at the numbers they were publishing, and thinking that they just didn't make sense. They were into the area of 600$ deposited for every 1000$ they were loaning, then ginning the numbers based on the possibility of 100% repayment. When they bought Maryland Bank (late '05 if I remember) to acquire it's 150 Bn of outstanding medium/high interest (read risk) credit card I popped smoke on that disaster.

Yep, times like this make me glad I am an old geezer too. Hey, something we can agree on, get out the geritol, and Lawrence Welk 78's and watch the world swirling the great toilet bowl of history.

[mustafabey]

Great, a geritol party with Lawrence Welk! Put me on the guest list. I'll quif my grey hair into a rockabilly pompadour and find some DVD's of I love Lucy reruns and we'll party late into the night, 'round 10 PM which is bed time for this old fart.

Seriously I still have a good portion of my retirement assets in BOA paper. It's a long story,but somebody loved this reprobate and set this up for me during my drinking and roving days. They figured I'd never have a pot to piss in and at least I wouldn't have to live on the streets. They never counted on me getting clean and sober and died before I did, so I'm locked in to it but grateful as hell as that small trust and social security let me keep most of head above water.

Live on the Rez? Do ya. Happen to be any Anishinaabe blood under that kilt? Western Cherokee and United Remnant Band Shawnee on my dad's side

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1284843749' post='482506']
Great, a geritol party with Lawrence Welk! Put me on the guest list. I'll quif my grey hair into a rockabilly pompadour and find some DVD's of I love Lucy reruns and we'll party late into the night, 'round 10 PM which is bed time for this old fart.

Seriously I still have a good portion of my retirement assets in BOA paper. It's a long story,but somebody loved this reprobate and set this up for me during my drinking and roving days. They figured I'd never have a pot to piss in and at least I wouldn't have to live on the streets. They never counted on me getting clean and sober and died before I did, so I'm locked in to it but grateful as hell as that small trust and social security let me keep most of head above water.

Live on the Rez? Do ya. Happen to be any Anishinaabe blood under that kilt? Western Cherokee and United Remnant Band Shawnee on my dad's side
[/quote]

1/8 quantum, all from my mom's side - enough that they still let me in. Bet they regret that, eh?

You haven't seen the Chicken Dance until you have seen it done to the "Irish Washerwoman".

[nun]

bla bla bla
i can't believe the majority believes 9/11 tragedy was an act of terrorism by muslims.
see what you can find when you look up : 9/11 dancing ISRAELI
sober up, America!

[noodle]

[quote name='nun' timestamp='1302243489' post='504644']
bla bla bla
i can't believe the majority believes 9/11 tragedy was an act of terrorism by muslims.
see what you can find when you look up : 9/11 dancing ISRAELI
sober up, America!
[/quote]

WTF?

[method]

[quote name='nun' timestamp='1302243489' post='504644']
bla bla bla
i can't believe the majority believes 9/11 tragedy was an act of terrorism by muslims.
see what you can find when you look up : 9/11 dancing ISRAELI
sober up, America!
[/quote]

amazing how you ppl connect everything to israel . you prolly think there we're attacking everybody arround us , oh wait , you do haha !

keep living in usa , and believing what YOU think is a fact .

[method]

btw nun , i was laughing pretty hard to see them stats and sources & more information part haha on that site in your sig , omg the ignorance

[nun]

[quote name='method' timestamp='1302351153' post='504803']
[quote name='nun' timestamp='1302243489' post='504644']
bla bla bla
i can't believe the majority believes 9/11 tragedy was an act of terrorism by muslims.
see what you can find when you look up : 9/11 dancing ISRAELI
sober up, America!
[/quote]

amazing how [b]you ppl [/b]connect everything to israel . you prolly think there we're attacking everybody arround us , oh wait , you do haha !

keep living in usa , and believing what YOU think is a fact .
[/quote]

i'm speaking on behalf of myself.

[method]

yes , but u intentionally showing only one side of the story , to make it look bad , like with ur posts about israeli killing palastines today and yday .

those were blatenly counter attacks due to missles launched and landed over here , and blowing up a bus . - and i know you know that and u didnt share it with the rest .

and by doing that , ur creating a falsified image of Israel and its ppl on purpose , just so ppl that dont have a clue , will form a wrong opinion .


i dont mind you and u other muslim friends be against whats happening here , but isnt that so typical for you guys to point out only your point of view and claim its a fact ?

just for the record , hammas and all those wankers launch missles towards israel and then israel reacts , that is always how it goes . IDF , D for defence .

you know how i know ? because ive been to the army in israel , and my friends served everywhere here (and still do) . now we know facts , u spread lies without even living here - again , on purpose .

and to top it off , u do it on a hookah forums , i came here to enjoy ALL ppl , and not read ur pasted inciting bullshit from a room connected to an internet and al jazeera .

[Hassouni]

For what it's worth I am Arab and of Muslim background (though not a believer) and I have ZERO doubt as to the official story being the real story.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='method' timestamp='1302355488' post='504807']
btw nun , i was laughing pretty hard to see them stats and sources & more information part haha on that site in your sig , omg the ignorance
[/quote]

You beat me to it.

I love it when someone posts a bunch of made-up BS with er, "questionable" (Ok, I wanted to say fake-lying facts... but I am trying to be nice.), and then calls them proof of anything. Just like the faked videos and photos that seem to keep showing up on our national media.

Recently we see some factaganda about the IDF nailing some assholes. But the "facts" in the propaganda forget to include the fact that IDF retaliation came after 70+ rockets landed in Israel. Or the fact Palestinians were dancing in the streets, and handing out cookies to celebrate the fact one of their ball-less "manly" palestinian terrorists broke into a home and knifed a mother,and a 3 year old to death in the middle of the night.

The fake pallywood-propaganda just makes it easier to not respect the whole lot of them. Head over to Live Leak, and see just how fake that stuff really is.

While the majority of liberal/progressive-America have been on an anti-Semitic/anti-Israel kick since 14-May-1948, there is a growing number of us who have always, and continue stand by Israel.