Faith In America?

[mustafabey]

Some of you know that i am older than dirt, born at the end of WW II. I grew up in an America of great change. America was getting electrified(at least down here, we got power in 1950) roads got paved, dad got a real job with the railroad and possum came off the menu.It seemed a time of hope and a realizable American dream. We went from hillbillies to 2 cars in the garage suburbanites in 5 years. Sure we hid under our desks during A bomb drills in school and Joe McCarthy was spewing hate but we weren't listening. There was rockabilly, Elvis and 45 RPM records. America was paradise on earth, ruled by Ozzie and Harriet and the Beav. Then came the death of JFK and Vietnam and civil rights. America all of a sudden got divided. i came back from Nam, grew my hair long, listened to the Dead and got wasted. America still seemed like a great place, there was still hope and the antics of the far left disappeared under the iron hand of Nixon and Hoover. Now, years later, I see division far worse than the sixties,racism, corporate greed, a culture based on debt and for the first time since the great depression, lots of people in financial trouble. It seems like no one cares. Jobs aren't coming back because corporate America has downsized and got people to do more work for less money and benefits. Unions are almost a thing of the past. Privatization has even entered the war business. Politicians seem like they lie everytime they open there mouths.Democrats or Republicans, doesn't make any difference, they are in bed with big money.Sure, I believed Obama's campaign, sounded like 1969 all over again, but it was hollow, it was a lie. Massive amounts of oil are spilled in the gulf and the government says, its all gone, enjoy your shrimp(we can't have all those watermen messing up the job numbers,being unemployed). Univ of Georgia say different, pollution is at the bottom of the gulf entering the base of the food chain. But its an election year, so eat shrimp and blackened redfish(that i shall sorely miss).
So tell me, am i being a big pessimist?Do you believe America will once again overcome and bounce back. I read alot of history and if history is relevent, it means America is in serious decline. You all are a lot younger, much more aware than the youth of my generation. i want to hear youre feelings.

[Chreees]

Honestly I see a continuing decline, but only because our leaders, on the right and left, have concealed intentions and it is hurting us, not helping us. If they can set aside the greed and bickering, perhaps things will get better someday. But I don't see it happening.

[Rani]

I'm with you on the history channel. 250 years more or less is probably about the age span of an empire in this fast moving age. I honestly think we're circling the drain. Hopefully, it will happen before the toddlers with nuclear matches in their hands manage to turn the planet into a smoking cinder. I doubt it's eventual downfall will change much for the human race as a whole. Yes, markets will fail, money and power will be revealed for the fantasy they have been throughout the industrial and technological ages, but for a great number of people, those that chose a happy life over power, life won't change a whole hell of a lot. And we'll stick around for a few thousand years more. People are like cockroaches. For each one you see, there are a few hundred hidden in the shadows, so the failure of this particular empire only allows them their turn in the sun.

Does it have to fail? No, but we are so clearly following in the footsteps of every other empire that has gone before it and obviously we haven't learned anything. We put personal power and influence over taking care of our neighbors, we put working our employees to stress related death ahead of happy productive environments where innovation can thrive, we fight and kill each other over religious differences despite the fact that a truly omnipotent God can be everything. Hell, we can't even drive up the street without cutting each other off because "oh so important we" have to get to the next stoplight before them .So, no, I honestly don't think we're doing anything but failing. The handwriting has been on the wall for decades. We just keep electing people who refuse to read it. And then we turn around and blame the blind bastards for being exactly what we voted for.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1282265369' post='479608']
I'm with you on the history channel. 250 years more or less is probably about the age span of an empire in this fast moving age. I honestly think we're circling the drain. Hopefully, it will happen before the toddlers with nuclear matches in their hands manage to turn the planet into a smoking cinder. I doubt it's eventual downfall will change much for the human race as a whole. Yes, markets will fail, money and power will be revealed for the fantasy they have been throughout the industrial and technological ages, but for a great number of people, those that chose a happy life over power, life won't change a whole hell of a lot. And we'll stick around for a few thousand years more. People are like cockroaches. For each one you see, there are a few hundred hidden in the shadows, so the failure of this particular empire only allows them their turn in the sun.

Does it have to fail? No, but we are so clearly following in the footsteps of every other empire that has gone before it and obviously we haven't learned anything. We put personal power and influence over taking care of our neighbors, we put working our employees to stress related death ahead of happy productive environments where innovation can thrive, we fight and kill each other over religious differences despite the fact that a truly omnipotent God can be everything. Hell, we can't even drive up the street without cutting each other off because "oh so important we" have to get to the next stoplight before them .So, no, I honestly don't think we're doing anything but failing. The handwriting has been on the wall for decades. We just keep electing people who refuse to read it. And then we turn around and blame the blind bastards for being exactly what we voted for.

'Rani"


Yes, the end of the American Empire, I think thats inevitable. Soon, or has history often does, produce Julius Caeser or Diocletian to tweek the system to make it work a few more years. I though Obama had that opportunity in2008,but either he choose not to be that catalyst or they wouldn't let him. So the market crashes, maybe a few nukes fly, alot of people will die painfully and a "new" order will emerge, new peoples will be exploited and enslaved and new elite will begin the 250 year cycle all over again. Even is worst case scenario where civilization is destroyed as much after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, even if climate change and global famine and the collapse of our energy structure, the haves and have nots will still inhabit this earth.

[Yasseah]

The older I get, the more cynical I become and any patriotic sentiments I once held are long gone. I'm not proud of my country(United States) and I don't "get" patriotism. To me, the United states is an instrument for the world's richest of the richest to bring the rest of the world to it's knees and perpetuate their family's wealth.

[Venger]

The USA as it has currently existed in my lifetime is coming to an end. Selfishness is at an all time high and our kids are deep in a virtual world that is making them complacent to what the government is doing to them. There was a time when You could raise a family on one salary. There was a time when people took care of people because they were our neighbors and we loved them as if they were family and it was the right thing to do.I lived in a neighborhood where on the forth of July we would block off our street and all the kids would pull their wagons like a parade and every house had a flag on it. I grew up in an America where you were embarrassed not to have a job and you were too proud to take food stamps but you did it for your kids and you worked two jobs so you could get off the stamps as soon as you could. Doctors came to your house if you were too sick to get there and they spent more than 5 minutes talking to you. they cured more than just the body but the mind and spirit as well.They new your family history because they were your parents Dr too. When I was growing up we had a milkman who would let himself in the unlocked backdoor go into the fridge to see how many half gallons we needed.He would rotate the older milk to the front and put the newer stuff in the back so none of it would go bad even if we didn't check the date. now people are so afraid they are willing to live in gated communities with guards and the only interaction they have with each other is sending nasty note when someone paints their house the "wrong" color without the associations permission. Some people smoke some didn't. Some people had a toilet flower planter on their from lawn some didn't.We didn't care. If you were fat we called you fat. If you were black we said you were black. no one took any real offense. We had white kids,black kids,and Asian kids in our school and we were all treated the same and got the same education. If you were disruptive the teacher removed you from the room.we all carried pocket knives and kept our shotgun in our locker during hunting season in the suburbs not the country. We learned how to read in English,we learned the constitution in social studies,and we learn out how to do math in our head. If you wanted to play a video game you saved up quarters and had to go to an arcade with other real people. we ate in the neighborhood diner where they new if you were there on a Friday they remembered you always got the fish fry and don't even ask anymore because you've been doing it for years.
We are headed toward a nanny state that will tell you what to eat,where to live,and when your allow to be out on the streets. We have swat teams instead of neighbor hood cops. All in the name of safety and security. I fear for what America has become and where it will be. Read history books and look for words like "for the common good" and "for your own safety" then look at the name of the country and the group in charge (yes I am talking to you Rome,Russia,China,and Germany). Don't know if it can be fixed or if it is going to break bad and someone hits the reset button. But I ramble.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1282354713' post='479740']
The USA as it has currently existed in my lifetime is coming to an end. Selfishness is at an all time high and our kids are deep in a virtual world that is making them complacent to what the government is doing to them. There was a time when You could raise a family on one salary. There was a time when people took care of people because they were our neighbors and we loved them as if they were family and it was the right thing to do.I lived in a neighborhood where on the forth of July we would block off our street and all the kids would pull their wagons like a parade and every house had a flag on it. I grew up in an America where you were embarrassed not to have a job and you were too proud to take food stamps but you did it for your kids and you worked two jobs so you could get off the stamps as soon as you could. Doctors came to your house if you were too sick to get there and they spent more than 5 minutes talking to you. they cured more than just the body but the mind and spirit as well.They new your family history because they were your parents Dr too. When I was growing up we had a milkman who would let himself in the unlocked backdoor go into the fridge to see how many half gallons we needed.He would rotate the older milk to the front and put the newer stuff in the back so none of it would go bad even if we didn't check the date. now people are so afraid they are willing to live in gated communities with guards and the only interaction they have with each other is sending nasty note when someone paints their house the "wrong" color without the associations permission. Some people smoke some didn't. Some people had a toilet flower planter on their from lawn some didn't.We didn't care. If you were fat we called you fat. If you were black we said you were black. no one took any real offense. We had white kids,black kids,and Asian kids in our school and we were all treated the same and got the same education. If you were disruptive the teacher removed you from the room.we all carried pocket knives and kept our shotgun in our locker during hunting season in the suburbs not the country. We learned how to read in English,we learned the constitution in social studies,and we learn out how to do math in our head. If you wanted to play a video game you saved up quarters and had to go to an arcade with other real people. we ate in the neighborhood diner where they new if you were there on a Friday they remembered you always got the fish fry and don't even ask anymore because you've been doing it for years.
We are headed toward a nanny state that will tell you what to eat,where to live,and when your allow to be out on the streets. We have swat teams instead of neighbor hood cops. All in the name of safety and security. I fear for what America has become and where it will be. Read history books and look for words like "for the common good" and "for your own safety" then look at the name of the country and the group in charge (yes I am talking to you Rome,Russia,China,and Germany). Don't know if it can be fixed or if it is going to break bad and someone hits the reset button. But I ramble.
Ray
[/quote]

Unfortunately, it's mostly our own fault. When doing some research recently I looked up election statistics. There are 308 million people in this country. Less than 50 million are registered to vote - About 15%. In any election year, turn-out even in high years, runs no more than 65%of those actually registered, give or take a percent. Overall average runs 35%, also give or take a percent, maybe two. So in a nation of of 308 million people, 17.5 million people are making the decisions at the voting booths. Every time I hear a politician say "the majority of the people voted for..........." I want to throw up. Not even close to a majority. Just the few who bothered to get out of bed and show up. So if we don't like the way things are, if we aren't happy with the status quo, then we need to get off our asses and get people registering and actually showing up giving a damn.

'Rani

[porksandwich9113]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1282418534' post='479799']
Unfortunately, it's mostly our own fault. When doing some research recently I looked up election statistics. There are 308 million people in this country. Less than 50 million are registered to vote - About 15%. In any election year, turn-out even in high years, runs no more than 65%of those actually registered, give or take a percent. Overall average runs 35%, also give or take a percent, maybe two. So in a nation of of 308 million people, 17.5 million people are making the decisions at the voting booths. Every time I hear a politician say "the majority of the people voted for..........." I want to throw up. Not even close to a majority. Just the few who bothered to get out of bed and show up. So if we don't like the way things are, if we aren't happy with the status quo, then we need to get off our asses and get people registering and actually showing up giving a damn.

'Rani
[/quote]

I am pretty sure there were more than 114,000,000 voters in the last presidential election.
While that's a crappy ratio still, its more like 35%. And lets not forget how many people included in our population are under the age of 18.

Also - It doesn't matter how many vote. Because it's the same two group spewing out the same shit every 4 years. Real change would come in the form of a different party.

[Rani]

[quote name='porksandwich9113' timestamp='1282498018' post='479898']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1282418534' post='479799']
Unfortunately, it's mostly our own fault. When doing some research recently I looked up election statistics. There are 308 million people in this country. Less than 50 million are registered to vote - About 15%. In any election year, turn-out even in high years, runs no more than 65%of those actually registered, give or take a percent. Overall average runs 35%, also give or take a percent, maybe two. So in a nation of of 308 million people, 17.5 million people are making the decisions at the voting booths. Every time I hear a politician say "the majority of the people voted for..........." I want to throw up. Not even close to a majority. Just the few who bothered to get out of bed and show up. So if we don't like the way things are, if we aren't happy with the status quo, then we need to get off our asses and get people registering and actually showing up giving a damn.

'Rani
[/quote]

I am pretty sure there were more than 114,000,000 voters in the last presidential election.
While that's a crappy ratio still, its more like 35%. And lets not forget how many people included in our population are under the age of 18.

Also - It doesn't matter how many vote. Because it's the same two group spewing out the same shit every 4 years. Real change would come in the form of a different party.
[/quote]

I got my information straight from the governmental office for elections. There's discrepancy in part because first reported turnout includes blank ballots, duplicate ballots, etc. which are later rejected. Regardless......

How's a 3rd Party going to work? Are they going to be backed by the same money and have exactly the same desire to empower themselves? Our entire culture is based on me, ME, MINE!. I don't see a 3rd party being anything but more of the same.

'Rani

[Zeusophobia]

I think their are a few people who could turn this around if they got to be president. One of which is Jesse Ventura. Ron Paul wouldn't be horrible, but I'd definitely vote for Jesse Ventura over him. Jesse Ventura doesn't even want to run though, and Ron Paul is old, if he doesn't get elected soon he's not getting elected.

In my opinion, those great republicans you were talking about are a thing of the past. All the republicans now are neo conservatives, which I wouldn't consider a true republican. Ron Paul is a true republican, but let's face it he'll never be elected with fox news bombarding all the old school republican voters with neo conservative garbage.

Do I think America will survive this? Yes. Do I think America will ever be as strong as it once was? Hell no.

[mustafabey]

Well, theres a glimmer of hope. Glenn Beck had his affair in DC yesterday and so did Al Sharpton. Both advised their respective crowds not to engage with the other side and that is admirable. Apparently the affair didn't turn into a hate fest. One thing puzzles me, both Beck and Romney are Mormons. How do the evangelicals feel about that?

[Venger]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1283078258' post='480630']
Well, theres a glimmer of hope. Glenn Beck had his affair in DC yesterday and so did Al Sharpton. Both advised their respective crowds not to engage with the other side and that is admirable. Apparently the affair didn't turn into a hate fest. One thing puzzles me, both Beck and Romney are Mormons. How do the evangelicals feel about that?
[/quote]

It took how many presidents to get the first Irish catholic? honestly I think for most people religion isn't even considered anymore. If it weren't for the extremists I doubt they would even care if they were Jewish or Muslim. There will always be a few people who just can't except anything but their kind too bad to because there are a lot of great people out there.
Ray

[antouwan]

the same thing is gong on in western europe. it isn't just america anymore - the entire west has failed.

i blame la puta crisis. ask a spaniard, he'll tell you.

[r1v3th3ad]

I believe we are witnessing the fall of an empire. Dr. Steven Schroeder at Indiana University of Pennsylvania did a lecture comparing America today to the fall of Rome, and it was pretty compelling. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but sometime soon we will leave the spot of world super power(I think China is going to take the spot, look at their economy, population, and all the gold they have been buying).

[mustafabey]

My take on it: Sometime in this decade, the war for oil control(which are already fighting) will get hot and the major players will emerge. Besides the US there will be Russia(the whole Ossetia/Georgia affair was over oil),Iran, who will try to be a major player but will fail,and China and India. When the smoke and radiation clears abit, the new world order will be China on one side and India on the other. America will join the has beens like Britain and France.

[Barnaby]

It doesn't matter who gets elected. They're puppets. Our government is a charade, meant to make us think we have a hand in our destiny, when we don't. Our complete existence is given to us on a platter, and to be honest, I don't see how we can ever break free short of world wide apocalypse. If the clock gets reset, then we will have our chance to make things right, but the elite are too well prepared. They'll survive that, and go on fucking us probably, until we are completely annihilated by whatever if we're lucky.

I hate to sound so down on it all, but I can't see it any other way. While I believe that most people are good, the few that are too consumed with greed have all the cards. And with technology, it just gets worse. How long before we're not even needed to drive the machine for them? How can you fight against UAVs and eventually autonomous robots? There won't be any reasoning with them, once the human element is removed.

But hey, go back to your wheaties.. All is well, living behind the veil.

[spectrum055]

My personal belief is that the only way to have a perfectly running Government is to not have any citizens.
Reasons why: Absence of Greed, murder, lies & the list pretty much goes on.

See everybody is happy. We are just on a new cycle like Democracy, Socialism something something something Back to the beginning....it's all over the history books, and wasn't this discovered by Plato himself correct me if I'm wrong.

We are a young nation also I see us as a giant social experiment. But if we could revolt and correct our selves back to the first stage and say fuck the traditions then perhaps lights and a giant prize will show up : P

I mean I'm 20 I'm leaving college basically because of financial reasons and starting Community college and a full time job...putting me back in school for say another 10 years tops.. So all I can hope for is that I can have a job be happy for the rest of my life with some form of money and mostly debt free...and put my children through college and die in a skydiving accident or some extreme sport that somebody who's 90 shouldn't be doing.

[Barnaby]

Eh, I wouldn't say eliminating the citizens is the fix here. To get a government working better, you need to remove the money element. Get rid of lobbying (or restrict it to the point where have more money does NOT equal better lobbying power), make all members in office give up/put on hold their personal investment portfolios that would contribute to a conflict of interest. We need to make it so there is no way money can influence the decision making process, short of meeting budgets.

No one should be able to sway/be swayed in the government by companies that vast amounts of money to throw around. Shit, how about even making it so you don't run for office at all? I mean, the best kind of person to lead, is very often NOT the person wanting the position. Make it like jury duty (obviously, there would have to be a requirement, like only certain levels of education allowed, etc), and a short term as well. None of this, senator for life shit. get some attrition, and get people in there who are NOT power hungry multi-millionaires.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Barnaby' timestamp='1284132349' post='481813']
Eh, I wouldn't say eliminating the citizens is the fix here. To get a government working better, you need to remove the money element. Get rid of lobbying (or restrict it to the point where have more money does NOT equal better lobbying power), make all members in office give up/put on hold their personal investment portfolios that would contribute to a conflict of interest. We need to make it so there is no way money can influence the decision making process, short of meeting budgets.

No one should be able to sway/be swayed in the government by companies that vast amounts of money to throw around. Shit, how about even making it so you don't run for office at all? I mean, the best kind of person to lead, is very often NOT the person wanting the position. Make it like jury duty (obviously, there would have to be a requirement, like only certain levels of education allowed, etc), and a short term as well. None of this, senator for life shit. get some attrition, and get people in there who are NOT power hungry multi-millionaires.
[/quote]

Yes, eliminating the money issue would certainly work, I'd add to that some provisions to keep money out of campaign finance, also. But the real question is HOW?

[Yasseah]

[quote name='Barnaby' timestamp='1283533074' post='481147']
[b]It doesn't matter who gets elected. They're puppets. Our government is a charade, meant to make us think we have a hand in our destiny, when we don't.[/b] Our complete existence is given to us on a platter, and to be honest, I don't see how we can ever break free short of world wide apocalypse. If the clock gets reset, then we will have our chance to make things right, but the elite are too well prepared. They'll survive that, and go on fucking us probably, until we are completely annihilated by whatever if we're lucky.

I hate to sound so down on it all, but I can't see it any other way. While I believe that most people are good, the few that are too consumed with greed have all the cards. And with technology, it just gets worse. How long before we're not even needed to drive the machine for them? How can you fight against UAVs and eventually autonomous robots? There won't be any reasoning with them, once the human element is removed.

But hey, go back to your wheaties.. All is well, living behind the veil.
[/quote]

[img]http://books.gigaimg.com/avaxhome/avaxhome/2007-10-16/Carroll_Quigley_H_Tragedy_And_Hope.jpg[/img]

[RingsMaster]

didnt read the whole post but the way i see it from my short lifetime, 20 years, i have yet to see and real measures at fixing the problems. i see us slowly spiraling down. i love my country but im losing faith in it, i honestly dont believe its about the people anymore(government) but more about political power and BS claims by candidates and so on and so forth, no one does what they say they will, theres scandals and it seems taking responsibility for your actions has become a thing of the past. everyone wants to blame everyone else for their problems, its just irritating, i like to think that i take responsibility for my actions as well as many other people i know but the growing trend is telling me otherwise.

one major major problem i have with our country as of right now is the political parties, they will say and do anything to get into office, honestly obama hasn't done anything he said he was going to do, and i bet there wouldnt have been anyone else who wouldnt have done the same thing, unless we get some decently honest people being voted for and get some candidates who wont turn their backs on the people who voted for them( i didnt vote for him but know people who did), then and only then will this country have a decent change into a good direction. there are so many problems our country is facing but i feel that this is a good turning point for our country if it happens. do i think it will happen? no, people crave power and will do anything to get it, i am a very conservative person but right now id rather have a truthful liberal in office and a cheating lying conservative. we lost our sense of truth in this country.

my little rant over, guess not all of it may be true but that just how i feel

PS
our youth is retarded, for the most part, the don't take responsibility and for the most part a lot of them are brats.

end rant lol

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