Religon, Agnosticism And Atheism

[Balthazar]

 I'm not sure I follow. Was your comment directed to me (since you quoted the article I posted)? The question you quote does not express a sentiment of the author, it's an example of moronic "arguments" against atheism. And I used it because Kaptein Kanel was under the impression that atheism was about denying the theoretical possibility of a higher power. It's not.

Other than that, I think I agree with your post Edited September 11, 2010 by Balthazar

[jorlyfish]

Haha, no, I'm in agreement - sorry for the lack of coherence there, I pretty much rolled out of bed this morning and wrote that.
I'm in agreement that atheism is not trying to prove a negative, but also that religion should (truly) prove the positive.

I also remembered this later, but I think agnosticism is not mutually exclusive of being an atheist or a theist... you can be an agnostic Christian, you just don't see many of them. Agnosticism, to my understanding, is what you think; it's what you (don't) know - You think there is no way of knowing whether or not there is a god/s, higher power, etc. Atheism and religion are what you believe - that there is or is not a god/s, which god/s you believe in, and the like.
Therefore, I am an agnostic atheist - I don't [i]know[/i] if there's a god/etc. or not, but I don't have faith in one or believe there is one. Religious people are not so willing to admit that they don't know for sure.

[noodle]

[quote name='jorlyfish' timestamp='1284233198' post='481933']
Haha, no, I'm in agreement - sorry for the lack of coherence there, I pretty much rolled out of bed this morning and wrote that.
I'm in agreement that atheism is not trying to prove a negative, but also that religion should (truly) prove the positive.

I also remembered this later, but I think agnosticism is not mutually exclusive of being an atheist or a theist... you can be an agnostic Christian, you just don't see many of them. Agnosticism, to my understanding, is what you think; it's what you (don't) know - You think there is no way of knowing whether or not there is a god/s, higher power, etc. Atheism and religion are what you believe - that there is or is not a god/s, which god/s you believe in, and the like.
Therefore, I am an agnostic atheist - I don't [i]know[/i] if there's a god/etc. or not, but I don't have faith in one or believe there is one. Religious people are not so willing to admit that they don't know for sure.
[/quote]

Or you could take the Buddhist stance and say "gods don't matter".

[Chreees]

I'm agnostic, cause no one can prove shit!

I do believe in a higher power, just that we as humans cannot even begin to understand it, so we all over time created our own beliefs. HUMAN-made beliefs. Nothing more.

[mustafabey]

For me, gods are tools you can use to approach the unity. i keep certain god images because they have given me strength in past crises. Quan yin, the goddess of mercy I identify with my mom, who in her tender mercy, left me a retirement trust, as this nomad never saved or worked much on the books.I keep images of the Buddha because, when i returned from Vietnam, Buddhist monks in Okinawa cleansed the pain of war from me. I have my spirit guide, from my Native American background, a guide I met on a vision quest in S. Dakota. Ganesh represents the remover of obstacles and obstacles have been removed. i keep a small meditation corner in one room with an altar to honor these gods. I keep symbols of other religions that have given me strength, Chistianity,Judaism, Islam. Yet, these are tools, reminders that all things are possible with strength.I am now going on 16 years of recovery. Much of my spirituality stems from recovery. Before recovery, i was spiritually bankrupt. AA taught me how to access a higher power. AA has a great saying, "If your god ain't working for you, then fire him and get a new one" Are gods emanations of the one or anthropomorphized symbols of different visions of what god is? While monotheists craft a version of a powerful one god ruling the universe, animists see god in every living thing. Dr.Stephen Hawking recently said god wasn't necessary in the creation event.I'm fine with that, but it doesn't change my spirituality one bit. Man's concepts of god are shaped by many different things. Rani has mentioned the works of Joseph Campbell wonderful works on mythology and the unity of it among other things. If you have Netflix you can rent some awesome videos by Joseph Campbell and while your there check Eckhardt Tolle's video teachings. Different visions of god. I suppose there as many gods as there are life forms.

[jorlyfish]

This reminded me of this thread:
http://funpics.classicfun.ws/index.php/Funpics/Religion-is-like-a-penis-1328008051

[mustafabey]

LOL Amen to that Ms. Jorlyfish

[Rani]

I had a thought last night that I'd like to bring into the discussion. (Obviously, I need a better social life, lol......)

What if.......The atheist is actually [u]closer[/u] to God than the followers of organized religion?

Here's where my logic comes in. A follower of organized religion attributes all things from creation itself to the day to day problem of their lives to the intelligent directed presence called God. This "God" is a personification of our own beliefs and need to explain the unexplainable. The atheist on the other hand tends to see everything as a result of their own and other human actions, with creation being a random sequence of events that happened to result in creation.

The most ancient relgions, along with the neo-pagan movement, see what we call 'God" as a Source that is transparent and a part of every living thing. In the Hindu/Buddhist story of Indra's Net, God is like an ever encompassing presence spread over the universe like a great net, at at every juncture or knot in the net, there is a living thing. Not personified as organized reltgons but an actual part of everything, in scientific terms, at a molecular level. In these ancient teachings, because we are part of God, we are essentially God. One Buddhist chant is "I am That". The Bible also echoes this when it states "I am That I am."

Therefore, if attributing everything to what is and ourselves, does the atheist actually come closer to the realization of God as the Supreme Soul that permeates and encompasses everything without personification?

i'm not certain everyone can follow my logic and I'm not certain I explained it as well as I could have , but for those of you who can, tell me what you think.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Great analogy,Rani. You explained it well. In religion we seem to get bogged down in defining the "supreme being" Of course everyone is going to have a different definition and ascribe different attributes. I am reminded of two analogies,one is the simple picture of Buddha emanating and radiating thousands of equally radiating buddha's until every particle of the creation is a little emanating buddha. In Shawnee mythology, Kokumthena,the creators grandmother, is knitting creation. When her knitting is done, so will this particular version of creation, but each night her little dog unravels the work she has done that day. Its not quite Indra's net, but its nice shaggy dog tale.

[Yasseah]

Born-again-Atheist here.

Went to Christian school up until 5th grade where they taught me lies that completely go against what's accepted as fact by anyone and everyone who matters in the scientific community. ("Mutation isn't real and is a made-up lie, "dinosaurs existed 2 thousand years ago", etc. etc.) When I look back, there were a lot of scary, strange people in the administration there but I didn't know any better.

Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to believe in a creator and whatnot, but Christianity = "I'm going to burn in a fiery inferno for all eternity after I'm already dead because I don't believe what you do and won't devote my life to your cult." I remember one time in Sunday school as a kid I cried when the teacher sat me down and told me that I caused Jesus to die a horrible slow death and that it was all for me. And then believing that I had to believe or else I'd burn for all eternity.

The nicest way I can sum up my attitude is that it pains me that one day I'll bring up a child in a world it's 2010 and people still think we need a bronze-age book to give us morals and keep us from savagely killing each other, and that there are people who will approach my child and try to make him/her believe that, especially stuff about hell.

[mustafabey]

"Christian education" is very big around here in SW Virginia with academies springing up quicker than poison ivy vines. I used to work at a wilderness camp for youth at risk before I retired. The recession cut state funding to poor underpriveledged kids, so now they have morphed into a Christian private school with emphasis on students able to pay tuiton. Scary as it is, reason always wins. Maybe it took years to accept Copernicus, but acceptance came. no one is teaching that the solar system revolves around the earth. Yes, it time to chuck the bronze age world view.

[noodle]

[quote name='Yasseah' timestamp='1284747770' post='482411']
Born-again-Atheist here.

Went to Christian school up until 5th grade where they taught me lies that completely go against what's accepted as fact by anyone and everyone who matters in the scientific community. ("Mutation isn't real and is a made-up lie, "dinosaurs existed 2 thousand years ago", etc. etc.) When I look back, there were a lot of scary, strange people in the administration there but I didn't know any better.

Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to believe in a creator and whatnot, but Christianity = "I'm going to burn in a fiery inferno for all eternity after I'm already dead because I don't believe what you do and won't devote my life to your cult." I remember one time in Sunday school as a kid I cried when the teacher sat me down and told me that I caused Jesus to die a horrible slow death and that it was all for me. And then believing that I had to believe or else I'd burn for all eternity.

The nicest way I can sum up my attitude is that it pains me that one day I'll bring up a child in a world it's 2010 and people still think we need a bronze-age book to give us morals and keep us from savagely killing each other, and that there are people who will approach my child and try to make him/her believe that, especially stuff about hell.
[/quote]

My experiences with a Christian upbringing were nothing like that. Things like exactly how old Earth is weren't discussed because they weren't relevant. Whether or not dinosaurs existed 2000 years ago or 65+ million years ago means absolutely nothing to questions of how to be a good person. I've never understood why there are religions that bother with that sort of thing. You had a sadistic Sunday school teacher.

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284572984' post='482244']
I had a thought last night that I'd like to bring into the discussion. (Obviously, I need a better social life, lol......)

What if.......The atheist is actually [u]closer[/u] to God than the followers of organized religion?

Here's where my logic comes in. A follower of organized religion attributes all things from creation itself to the day to day problem of their lives to the intelligent directed presence called God. This "God" is a personification of our own beliefs and need to explain the unexplainable. The atheist on the other hand tends to see everything as a result of their own and other human actions, with creation being a random sequence of events that happened to result in creation.

The most ancient relgions, along with the neo-pagan movement, see what we call 'God" as a Source that is transparent and a part of every living thing. In the Hindu/Buddhist story of Indra's Net, God is like an ever encompassing presence spread over the universe like a great net, at at every juncture or knot in the net, there is a living thing. Not personified as organized reltgons but an actual part of everything, in scientific terms, at a molecular level. In these ancient teachings, because we are part of God, we are essentially God. One Buddhist chant is "I am That". The Bible also echoes this when it states "I am That I am."

Therefore, if attributing everything to what is and ourselves, does the atheist actually come closer to the realization of God as the Supreme Soul that permeates and encompasses everything without personification?

i'm not certain everyone can follow my logic and I'm not certain I explained it as well as I could have , but for those of you who can, tell me what you think.

'Rani
[/quote]

I follow your logic. Have you ever studied alchemy? I'm not talking about the gold-making part, but the philosophy.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284777111' post='482447']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284572984' post='482244']
I had a thought last night that I'd like to bring into the discussion. (Obviously, I need a better social life, lol......)

What if.......The atheist is actually [u]closer[/u] to God than the followers of organized religion?

Here's where my logic comes in. A follower of organized religion attributes all things from creation itself to the day to day problem of their lives to the intelligent directed presence called God. This "God" is a personification of our own beliefs and need to explain the unexplainable. The atheist on the other hand tends to see everything as a result of their own and other human actions, with creation being a random sequence of events that happened to result in creation.

The most ancient relgions, along with the neo-pagan movement, see what we call 'God" as a Source that is transparent and a part of every living thing. In the Hindu/Buddhist story of Indra's Net, God is like an ever encompassing presence spread over the universe like a great net, at at every juncture or knot in the net, there is a living thing. Not personified as organized reltgons but an actual part of everything, in scientific terms, at a molecular level. In these ancient teachings, because we are part of God, we are essentially God. One Buddhist chant is "I am That". The Bible also echoes this when it states "I am That I am."

Therefore, if attributing everything to what is and ourselves, does the atheist actually come closer to the realization of God as the Supreme Soul that permeates and encompasses everything without personification?

i'm not certain everyone can follow my logic and I'm not certain I explained it as well as I could have , but for those of you who can, tell me what you think.

'Rani
[/quote]

I follow your logic. Have you ever studied alchemy? I'm not talking about the gold-making part, but the philosophy.
[/quote]

I study and respect [u]everything[/u]. It is my spiritual mandate, which is a very long involved story. Much too long to go into here.

'Rani