9/11 Quran Burning Event In Florida

[mustafabey]

I was listening to Glenn Beck's radio show today and he had a fill in host named Joe Pags. One of the questions discussed was the proposed Quran burning party this pastor is having in Gainseville,Florida. Thought that might be a nice juicy morsel for us serious discussion regulars.
General Petraeus made a comment to the effect that such action is basically going to endanger American troops fighting in Afghanistan.
The show's host said that burning the Quran is 1st amendment issue and that we should not "suspend" the constitution for one group of people, because we fear their retribution. To be fair to Joe Pags he did state that he thought the burning was not a great idea, but within first amendment rights. Now I am not that knowledgeable on constitutional issues and law in general, but it seems to me that if someone decided to burn a Torah, they would immediately be charged with a hate crime. Certainly, due to events in history we are sensitive about the rights of the Jewish people. I may be wrong, Torah burning might be considered free speech just as flag burning and cross burning,but I feel the outrage might be totally different. Of course there's the respect issue, but that doesn't seem to have any validity with these people.
Asa former member of the Marines and a combat vet, I think of those boys who might come home in a body bag due to some else's rights of free speech infringing on the soldier's right to life. Conservative talk radio seems to feel that a soldier's job is to defend the constitution and that soldier's death,while mourned, will have made this nation freer by his sacrifice.
This reminds me of another group that protests the funerals of military members who die in war claiming that are dying because god doesn't like homosexuals. If it were my child's funeral, I would be arrested for assault at the minimum and more if they took their time to subdue me.
I always enjoy the variety of views expressed by the learned members of this forum, so lets chew on this one a bit

[Barnaby]

Quran burning.. Jesus would approve of this intolerance.. Seriously, I just don't get it. How can anyone rationalize this as ok, is beyond me.

[Rani]

It's an obscenity that they should do this on every single level. And I agree that they should be charged with whatever laws are on the books, from having a bonfire without a permit, to accessory to murder if someone is killed due to their actions instigating violence. The city refused to give them a permit and has threatened to arrest them I understand, but they're planning to go ahead anyway.

I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with people these days. I just don't get it. I'm completely aghast at the stupidity and warped hatred that seems so prominent right now.

'Rani

[Venger]

[sup]7[/sup]Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." [sup]8[/sup]Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,"

[sup]9[/sup]to fulfill the word which He spoke, "[sup][/sup]Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

[sup]10[/sup]Simon Peter then,having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.

[sup]11[/sup]So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

we have so many Peters and not enough like Jesus. So quick to pick up a sword or burn a book or condemn a people.

Jesus,surrendered and asked them to let his friends go. That is the guy I want to be more like.

The idea of burning a book disturbs me. The idea that by destroying a book you can destroy an idea. reminds me of the piles of books the Nazis burned.

funny thing is the books can be reprinted and are still around. This can not be said for the Nazis.

Ray

[ezxen]

[quote name='Barnaby' timestamp='1283879135' post='481489']
Quran burning.. Jesus would approve of this intolerance.. Seriously, I just don't get it. How can anyone rationalize this as ok, is beyond me.
[/quote]


[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1283880260' post='481494']
It's an obscenity that they should do this on every single level. And I agree that they should be charged with whatever laws are on the books, from having a bonfire without a permit, to accessory to murder if someone is killed due to their actions instigating violence. The city refused to give them a permit and has threatened to arrest them I understand, but they're planning to go ahead anyway.

I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with people these days. I just don't get it. I'm completely aghast at the stupidity and warped hatred that seems so prominent right now.

'Rani
[/quote]
You too pretty much hit the nail on the head of what i would want to say.
First tho They have the right to do it as a first amendment of free speech , Just as skin heads ad neo nazis have rights to speak the hate they speak not matter how god awful it is .
Second ,It seems that there not just hating on a region witch would go against there gods teachings.They are also attacking middle eastern people but fail to relize that Jesus Christ was not this italian looking white man but a man who lived in the middle east .
Its pain stupid that they would do this .
Not all Muslims are terrorist , just as not all mexicans are day labors and blacks lazy drug dealers and white people trailer trash sister fuckers . People who hate others for the stupid reasons piss me off so much .

[Tom1]

Radical Christians are just as bad as radical Muslims. The Government doesn't seem to mind violating other constitutional rights so I wouldn't be surprised if they shut it down.

[Rani]

I also wanted to add that in addition to the spiritual impact this kind of contempt has, there's another point that bothers me about it tremendously. The Quran came with a very specific instruction. That it was never to be changed or modified. It's prohibited from being changed in any way,in order that the first edition hundreds of years ago is to be identical to those 5,000 years from now. No Islamic Council of Trent is going to come along and decide "We don't like those passages, let's trash them." Because of this prohibition, and the reverence of keeping it, historically it's the most accurate of the Holy Doctrine from it's original writ. And these idiots won't even look inside the cover and discover what a historically significant document praising God they're destroying. I just don't understand how people can choose to be that stupid. Because it really is a choice to stand there with a book in your hand that has the significance that particular book has, whether you believe it's teachings or not, and not even have the courage to crack the cover.

'Rani

[Barnaby]

Kinda goes along with the whole idea that what bothers you most about others, is what bothers you the most about yourself. So, in this, they're hating the radical Islamics.. Maybe they hate the fact that they know they're duped, and are a bunch of radical Christians. Nah, that's giving them too much credit.

Back to the 3 minutes of hate!!!!!!!

[Hassouni]

I'm very glad to see all of the rational, level-headed people on board here.

As some of you may know, I'm half-Iraqi (Muslim background), half-white American (christian background). I don't practice or believe especially in either, but stuff like this always enrages me, and I am always quick to defend Islam against insanity like this. It's worth noting that in the Islamic Golden Age, Christians and Jews were integral, functional parts of society -- something the Jews didn't enjoy in Europe until recently, and Muslim still don't enjoy in Europe en masse.

All religions have had lunatics kill in the name of God and/or be highly intolerant of others. What these nuts in Florida are doing is simply feeding the fire, and providing evidence for the nuts that Christian society really is incompatible with Islam. To follow on what Venger and Barnaby have said, would Jesus not have said to turn the other cheek?

Oh also, Rani is right. Practicing Muslims believe the Qur'an is the LITERAL VERBATIM WORD OF GOD. As an arch-skeptic, I find it pretty easy to disprove this, but, regardless, it's not just a "book" being burnt.....

[mustafabey]

Probably one of the most tolerant societies we have known is what Hassouni calls Islam's golden age. Myths like warriors of Islam offering the Quran or the sword still abound in western thought, while the Crusades is thought of by Islamic historians as just another barbarian invasion, like the Huns, Goths and Mongols. It is thru the high Islamic culture that came out of Cordoba that Europe gained the knowledge that became the Renassiance. At some point in time, during the Ottoman Empire, the religious thinking of the ulema became stagnant, perhaps due to lower standards of education. Also Sunni Islam closed the door of itjahid(term of Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation) that stifled innovative religious thinking. Islam became frozen in time and unable to adjust to a changing world. As globalization threatens local and regional traditions, fundamentalism emerges as a negative answer to change. There are discussions going on within the Islamic community to re open the door of itjahid. This together with the Sufi tradition are Islam's best hope for dealing with the radical changes of the 21st century. By the way, the same holds true in the west, with Christianity unable to adjust to a more complex and more revealed(scientific) world. So, those people, who I call "The American Taliban" fall into the same trap as their Wahabi and Salafi cousins. It's amazing sometimes how much they are alike.
Another reason for Quranic purity, is that for a good Muslim, the Quran must be read and recited in Arabic.

[Chreees]

This is probably the most ignorant and stupid thing I've ever heard. Some Americans are so stupid.

[mustafabey]

I don't know whether this "brain fart" is true or not, but it got me thinking. In the Quran and in Islamic law. Jews and Christians are called peoples of the book. Meaning they have earlier revelations from Allah{God,YHWH) in the form of a revealed book. Therefor it would seem to me that Muslims would be reluctant to burn a Bible or a Torah, because they see it as God's word, albeit and obsolete version fraught with error due to translation and various Roman scripture changing synods. To my knowledge anyway, I have never heard of Muslim intentionally burning or destroying a holy book of either christians or jews.

[Hassouni]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1283895614' post='481541']
I don't know whether this "brain fart" is true or not, but it got me thinking. In the Quran and in Islamic law. Jews and Christians are called peoples of the book. Meaning they have earlier revelations from Allah{God,YHWH) in the form of a revealed book. Therefor it would seem to me that Muslims would be reluctant to burn a Bible or a Torah, because they see it as God's word, albeit and obsolete version fraught with error due to translation and various Roman scripture changing synods. To my knowledge anyway, I have never heard of Muslim intentionally burning or destroying a holy book of either christians or jews.
[/quote]

This is pretty much spot-on.

[Hassouni]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1283888472' post='481518']

Another reason for Quranic purity, is that for a good Muslim, the Quran must be read and recited in Arabic.
[/quote]

Well the idea behind this is that since the Qur'an is the word of God, therefore the language of God must be classical 7th century Hijazi Arabic.

Which frankly is bunk, in my view. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he would know ALL languages, and would use whatever necessary to address a given population.

That being said, the Qur'an IS written in pretty much the most beautiful Arabic verse that's ever been achieved, so give someone (God or otherwise...) credit for that!

[r1v3th3ad]

technically it is disorderly conduct and they all can be arrested. I almost got a disorderly conduct for smoking hookah in public...I was in the park on campus smoking, someone called in thinking it was a nh. Cops told me I was in disorderly conduct because I offended somebody and that if I did not leave I would be charged. I was breaking no laws.

I say charge them with that.

[noodle]

Weird how the Ground Zero Mosque is acceptable and this is not.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1283921090' post='481578']
Weird how the Ground Zero Mosque is acceptable and this is not.
[/quote]

It's not a mosque, it's the addition of a cultural center on the site where a mosque already exists according to several New Yorkers who have written articles recently on Huffington Post, the New Your Times, and the Washington Post. Allowing the building of the cultural center speaks of tolerance. Burning religious books and posting signs on the church lawn claiming Islam is the devil is the epitome of hate and intolerance.

'Rani

[Genie]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1283877028' post='481483']
To be fair to Joe Pags he did state that he thought the burning was not a great idea, but within first amendment rights. Now I am not that knowledgeable on constitutional issues and law in general, but it seems to me that if someone decided to burn a Torah, they would immediately be charged with a hate crime.
[/quote]

[quote]I may be wrong, Torah burning might be considered free speech just as flag burning and cross burning,but I feel the outrage might be totally different. [/quote]

It's only a hate crime if someONE is being burned or their property. I can buy 1,000 holy books from any religion and burn them all I want as long as there's no burn ban where I'm burning them. I'm betting they have a permit for this demonstration. It's disgusting and hateful, but it's not a crime.

I haven't read up on this in several weeks, but last time I checked there were many Christian organizations completely against this Quran burning. This group, I can't remember what they're called right now, is really hurting Christianity as a whole with this ridiculous and offensive demonstration. And, frankly, they're making American in general look hateful and intolerant.

[Venger]

from the bbc today:
Already, protesters in Afghanistan have burned an effigy of Mr Jones to chants of "death to America".

"Even the rumour that it might take place has sparked demonstrations such as the one that took place in Kabul," warned the top US and Nato military commander in the country, Gen David Petraeus, earlier this week.


OK so why does it seem (and this could be me being all WASPie) but "death to America"? WTF one asshole in one of the 50 states decides he wants to burn a book and suddenly it "death to America". This is the problem I have with other countries and the current Muslim situation. We are expected to be tolerant and understanding but when one freakin guy want to burn a book (foolish though it may be) then it "DEATH TO AMERICA".This I will not tolerate or even try to understand.

Ray

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Genie' timestamp='1283933038' post='481587']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1283877028' post='481483']
To be fair to Joe Pags he did state that he thought the burning was not a great idea, but within first amendment rights. Now I am not that knowledgeable on constitutional issues and law in general, but it seems to me that if someone decided to burn a Torah, they would immediately be charged with a hate crime.
[/quote]

[quote]I may be wrong, Torah burning might be considered free speech just as flag burning and cross burning,but I feel the outrage might be totally different. [/quote]

It's only a hate crime if someONE is being burned or their property. I can buy 1,000 holy books from any religion and burn them all I want as long as there's no burn ban where I'm burning them. I'm betting they have a permit for this demonstration. It's disgusting and hateful, but it's not a crime.

I haven't read up on this in several weeks, but last time I checked there were many Christian organizations completely against this Quran burning. This group, I can't remember what they're called right now, is really hurting Christianity as a whole with this ridiculous and offensive demonstration. And, frankly, they're making American in general look hateful and intolerant.
[/quote]

Yes, I think that is what the law says,however my theory is that if a group people decided to have a public event and burn Jewish holy books, the reaction would lead to arrests of somekind, probably under hate crime statutes. Because of the Holocaust and the media, w e in America are quite sensitive to trials and tribulations of the Jewish people. The scepter of nazism still clouds our history. And, whether it is considered being submissive or afraid of Islamic reaction, anything that puts our troops in danger, that comes from this country is just plain obscene. Plus, if we are trying to elicit change and democracy in the Middle East, this is surely not the way to heal interfaith wounds. Infact, what this pastor is doing, whether he is aware of it or not, is making a wonderful and effective commercial to recruit suicide bombers and Jihadist for al Qaeda and similar organizations. Freedom of speech is a very important part of the Constitution,but when it threatens the lives of American boys it no longer represents freedom of any kind.

[Hassouni]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1283921368' post='481580']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1283921090' post='481578']
Weird how the Ground Zero Mosque is acceptable and this is not.
[/quote]

It's not a mosque, it's the addition of a cultural center on the site where a mosque already exists according to several New Yorkers who have written articles recently on Huffington Post, the New Your Times, and the Washington Post. Allowing the building of the cultural center speaks of tolerance. Burning religious books and posting signs on the church lawn claiming Islam is the devil is the epitome of hate and intolerance.

'Rani
[/quote]

Correct.

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1283958373' post='481612']

Yes, I think that is what the law says,however my theory is that if a group people decided to have a public event and burn Jewish holy books, the reaction would lead to arrests of somekind, probably under hate crime statutes. Because of the Holocaust and the media, w e in America are quite sensitive to trials and tribulations of the Jewish people. The scepter of nazism still clouds our history. And, whether it is considered being submissive or afraid of Islamic reaction, anything that puts our troops in danger, that comes from this country is just plain obscene. Plus, if we are trying to elicit change and democracy in the Middle East, this is surely not the way to heal interfaith wounds. Infact, what this pastor is doing, whether he is aware of it or not, is making a wonderful and effective commercial to recruit suicide bombers and Jihadist for al Qaeda and similar organizations. Freedom of speech is a very important part of the Constitution,but when it threatens the lives of American boys it no longer represents freedom of any kind.
[/quote]


Correct.

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1283948923' post='481602']
from the bbc today:
Already, protesters in Afghanistan have burned an effigy of Mr Jones to chants of "death to America".

"Even the rumour that it might take place has sparked demonstrations such as the one that took place in Kabul," warned the top US and Nato military commander in the country, Gen David Petraeus, earlier this week.


OK so why does it seem (and this could be me being all WASPie) but "death to America"? WTF one asshole in one of the 50 states decides he wants to burn a book and suddenly it "death to America". This is the problem I have with other countries and the current Muslim situation. We are expected to be tolerant and understanding but when one freakin guy want to burn a book (foolish though it may be) then it "DEATH TO AMERICA".This I will not tolerate or even try to understand.

Ray

[/quote]

i had reason to think about this recently and I came to the conclusion that really our system is unique. We are so diverse and we don't vote as much as we should. We are actually very separate from our government in many ways, but that not the norm around the world. The US is a young nation, but we've had no real changes of infrastructure whereas around the world when head of state changes so does the entire infrastructure. I don't think it's completely perceived how distant we are from our government. Even our military is not at the beck and call of the head of state where especially in so called Third World countries, the exact opposite is often the norm. In addition our constitution actually endorses our distance from government interference. So when some idiot is allowed to do something so hateful, it's not really understood why it's allowed. Plus we actually vote our officials into their positions of power. How do you as an outsider perceive that as other than at least tacit approval of their actions since we gave them the job in the first place?

In addition, you have the very human envy going on. 234 years ago, we had a revolution. And pretty much no real continuing state of war since. No terrorism or constant threat. We grew up feeling relatively safe and secure by the size and power of the nation itself. To someone living in a constant state of war, where every family loses children to violence and ravages of war and oppression like starvation, water shortages, lack of eduction and medical help when needed, it creates a sense of envy and "unfairness". People around the world want primarily the same things. To earn a living that enables them to support their families. To practice their faiths without oppression. To live without fear that the next time you let your children play outside they will never come home again alive. Most of the world doesn't have that and it's pretty much impossible not to envy those nations that do.

I only caught a part of the interview, but a reporter returned to Iraq after 10 years. He interviewed the same families he'd interviewed before the war and discovered what had happened to them. A mother, who had lost young two children to the war, said that the US needs to go home, because only then would the children stop dying. There is no way to counter that that I can find. No way at all.

'Rani

[IainUM]

so dumb. i just can't grasp why anyone can think this is a good idea at any level. bad things'll happen

[Rani]

Sec. Clinton has requested that media cease giving any press to this man and his church because it will make matters worse. We've all pretty much agreed this guy is a nut job and maybe we should close and erase this thread so as to not be another searchable source on it? God knows I'm in favor of free speech, but if it contributes to web searches and thereby helping to inflame the topic, then yeah, maybe we need to eliminate the thread.

Anyone second the motion?


'Rani

[Chreees]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1283995719' post='481660']
Sec. Clinton has requested that media cease giving any press to this man and his church because it will make matters worse. We've all pretty much agreed this guy is a nut job and maybe we should close and erase this thread so as to not be another searchable source on it? God knows I'm in favor of free speech, but if it contributes to web searches and thereby helping to inflame the topic, then yeah, maybe we need to eliminate the thread.

Anyone second the motion?


'Rani
[/quote]

Doesn't matter... Fox News will be covering this story no matter what. But we all know Fox News is not a TRUE source for news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LUid0IZ2w