Molly Norris In Hiding

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284876722' post='482539']

You don't get it and honestly I don't think you're going to. Your "way" isn't automatically right. Your opinion is valuable only to you. And I don't mean that in an insulting way, but as an informative statement that is true of everyone. Your perception of what's "right" comes from where you in particular stand. Someone standing at a different perspective thinks they're equally right. And there's no way you can say they are not. Nor can they say you are not. You are right to yourself and I'm right to myself. You aren't happy at being misunderstood. Yet you insist that Muslim are "wrong" because they choose to say "don't do something we find it insulting". You can't tell them they're wrong. They're right from their perspective. That's what tolerance is. Knowing that your beliefs and opinions come from your own perspective and may not be identical to others. You do not find it insulting to see drawings of the Prophet. Okay, good for you. Some else finds it demeaning and insulting, and they are also right. If you expect your opinion and perspective to be tolerated, why can you not also allow them their perspective and opinion?

And once again, you jumped to some major erroneous conclusions. Gangsters? When on earth did I mention talking trash to gangsters? I mentioned a well-known ethnic neighborhood and use of an ethnically insulting word. Compton is quite a prosperous city. It's 10 minutes from me and has excellent restaurants, housing and night life. Your assumption it's filled with nothing but gangsters is once again, insulting.

May I ask how old you are? Because I'm guessing you're quite young. And no, that's not a "you're young therefore you must be stupid" kind of question. I'm asking because it's only in the very young that we have the arrogance to believe we're completely right in our views and that all other ways can't possibly be right. (Yes, we old farts once had the same ideas you do.) Usually we outgrow it from experience with other cultures and traditions. We did. You will too.

'Rani
[/quote]

Please explain to me why I must alter my behavior for a newcomer? Why is it acceptable to for you to go into someone else's domain uninvited and demand they accomodate your wishes? If you don't like to see pictures of someone, then don't look. We use pictures in the West. If you find that demeaning and insulting, that's your problem, not mine.

Gangsters... Who do you think would get violent with you if you started using the N-word at random in Compton?

[mustafabey]

I am curious,Noodle,if you have done any traveling outside the Western world. If not,I'd recommend the experience. I don't mean organized encapsulated tourist junkets, but rather a trip that gets you in contact with the local people. You may find that these people, who have found different solutions than you have, for everyday problems,,can be quite correct in those solutions. And sometimes, you may find their solutions are better than the ones that have been given to you. You will find, most anywhere you go,a wonderful and hospitable people willing to share what little they have.They may kill a goat for you for dinner, although they haven't eaten meat in weeks, not to impress you, but to honor you. And you in return honor them with you presence and tolerance.
You seem to have made your mind that "modern western culture" is superior and they way to go. You limit yourself. Its like passing up the Chinese buffet, the little taco stand, the kebab guy and the elaborate Mughlai restaurant for a diet of Big Mac's.

[noodle]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1284902340' post='482557']
I am curious,Noodle,if you have done any traveling outside the Western world. If not,I'd recommend the experience. I don't mean organized encapsulated tourist junkets, but rather a trip that gets you in contact with the local people. You may find that these people, who have found different solutions than you have, for everyday problems,,can be quite correct in those solutions. And sometimes, you may find their solutions are better than the ones that have been given to you. You will find, most anywhere you go,a wonderful and hospitable people willing to share what little they have.They may kill a goat for you for dinner, although they haven't eaten meat in weeks, not to impress you, but to honor you. And you in return honor them with you presence and tolerance.
You seem to have made your mind that "modern western culture" is superior and they way to go. You limit yourself. Its like passing up the Chinese buffet, the little taco stand, the kebab guy and the elaborate Mughlai restaurant for a diet of Big Mac's.
[/quote]

I plan to do some traveling as soon as I can afford it. You're describing a situation in which I am a guest. Given that, of course I would respect my hosts feelings and taboos. That's very different from having foreign taboos forced upon you.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284881224' post='482547']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284876722' post='482539']
You don't get it and honestly I don't think you're going to. Your "way" isn't automatically right. Your opinion is valuable only to you. And I don't mean that in an insulting way, but as an informative statement that is true of everyone. Your perception of what's "right" comes from where you in particular stand. Someone standing at a different perspective thinks they're equally right. And there's no way you can say they are not. Nor can they say you are not. You are right to yourself and I'm right to myself. You aren't happy at being misunderstood. Yet you insist that Muslim are "wrong" because they choose to say "don't do something we find it insulting". You can't tell them they're wrong. They're right from their perspective. That's what tolerance is. Knowing that your beliefs and opinions come from your own perspective and may not be identical to others. You do not find it insulting to see drawings of the Prophet. Okay, good for you. Some else finds it demeaning and insulting, and they are also right. If you expect your opinion and perspective to be tolerated, why can you not also allow them their perspective and opinion?

And once again, you jumped to some major erroneous conclusions. Gangsters? When on earth did I mention talking trash to gangsters? I mentioned a well-known ethnic neighborhood and use of an ethnically insulting word. Compton is quite a prosperous city. It's 10 minutes from me and has excellent restaurants, housing and night life. Your assumption it's filled with nothing but gangsters is once again, insulting.

May I ask how old you are? Because I'm guessing you're quite young. And no, that's not a "you're young therefore you must be stupid" kind of question. I'm asking because it's only in the very young that we have the arrogance to believe we're completely right in our views and that all other ways can't possibly be right. (Yes, we old farts once had the same ideas you do.) Usually we outgrow it from experience with other cultures and traditions. We did. You will too.

'Rani
[/quote]

Please explain to me why I must alter my behavior for a newcomer? Why is it acceptable to for you to go into someone else's domain uninvited and demand they accomodate your wishes? If you don't like to see pictures of someone, then don't look. We use pictures in the West. If you find that demeaning and insulting, that's your problem, not mine. [color="#4B0082"][b]It's called respect. I'm Native American, and I've bee a part of this forum longer than you have, therefore logically both personally and in terms of this forum, you're the newcomer. Therefore you're wrong, I'm automatically right and you have to change your behavior even ift it's a part of your spiritual tradition going by thousands of years. Do you see how illogical that would be?[/b][/color]

Gangsters... Who do you think would get violent with you if you started using the N-word at random in Compton? [color="#4B0082"][b]Pretty much everybody, including women and children. [/b][/color]
[/quote]

[color="#4B0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]
[color="#4B0082"][b]
[/b][/color]
[color="#4B0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]

[Venger]

Sorry folks but I understand where noodle is coming from. Its one thing to respect someones culture but there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
How would you feel if someone came into your house invited or not and pissed on your couch then demanded your wife cover her face and said this all in their language not yours. America is one of the most forgiving countries in the world but it only works when we become a true melting pot. My family did not become successful in America by demanding everyone speak German or French. No they learned English and blended their culture with the other cultures to make a new better stronger culture. And on the subject of not getting involved in the worlds business lets talk about places like Haiti. We help ,its not enough,we don't we are greedy assholes who don't care. Can have it both ways. We tried the whole staying out of the worlds business. We got a bombing for our trouble,remember pearl harbor. Just some thoughts.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1284925658' post='482565']
Sorry folks but I understand where noodle is coming from. Its one thing to respect someones culture but there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
How would you feel if someone came into your house invited or not and pissed on your couch then demanded your wife cover her face and said this all in their language not yours. America is one of the most forgiving countries in the world but it only works when we become a true melting pot. My family did not become successful in America by demanding everyone speak German or French. No they learned English and blended their culture with the other cultures to make a new better stronger culture. And on the subject of not getting involved in the worlds business lets talk about places like Haiti. We help ,its not enough,we don't we are greedy assholes who don't care. Can have it both ways. We tried the whole staying out of the worlds business. We got a bombing for our trouble,remember pearl harbor. Just some thoughts.
Ray
[/quote]

But "enough is enough" is only from this perspective when you'r talking about "your" culture. You're saying you want the melting only on one side - theirs. They have to give in, they have to make the sacrifice. Why? What makes "your" perspective more valid than "theirs"? Not to mention the fact that legally and constitutionally, a citizen is citizen is a citizen with all the same rights of tolerance and acceptance whether they've been a citizen for 30 minutes or 30 generations.

And as far as Pearl Harbor is concerned, weren't we involved in a little thing called World War II against the Axis Powers of what Japan was a part, when that happened? I don't think we were remotely minding our own business at the time.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1284925658' post='482565']
Sorry folks but I understand where noodle is coming from. Its one thing to respect someones culture but there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
How would you feel if someone came into your house invited or not and pissed on your couch then demanded your wife cover her face and said this all in their language not yours. America is one of the most forgiving countries in the world but it only works when we become a true melting pot. My family did not become successful in America by demanding everyone speak German or French. No they learned English and blended their culture with the other cultures to make a new better stronger culture. And on the subject of not getting involved in the worlds business lets talk about places like Haiti. We help ,its not enough,we don't we are greedy assholes who don't care. Can have it both ways. We tried the whole staying out of the worlds business. We got a bombing for our trouble,remember pearl harbor. Just some thoughts.
Ray
[/quote]

Let me also say, that I do understand where his perspective is coming from as well. I do know what he's getting at. But entire cultures have been lost through history because one was deemed as "less than" or "not as valid as". And humanity loses every time that happens. And when you're talking about someone's faith that same history has shown that if you really want to go for genocide on a grand scale, just bring God into the mix. But that's what tolerance is all about. Learning why someone feels a certain way rather than just dismissing it. You must be able to say, okay, I'm not thrilled about that and I'm not going to adopt it, but I don't mind that you do. And we're still not talking about one woman who decided to draw Mohammed. She instead decided to create a world wide controversy. For example, I find crime scene photos offensives. But during a trial, you need to see the photos. So a depiction is valid. But I'm not organizing a world wide movement to publish crime scene photos on every wall. That's essentially what she chose to do. Had she as an artist painted a depiction of Mohammed received the Qur'an from God, hardly anyone would have noticed. But that's not what she choose to do. She chose controversy, she chose insult. Publicly. Not informative, not depiction for historical or informative purposes. For insult. And that is not acceptable.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1284925658' post='482565']
Sorry folks but I understand where noodle is coming from. Its one thing to respect someones culture but there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
How would you feel if someone came into your house invited or not and pissed on your couch then demanded your wife cover her face and said this all in their language not yours. America is one of the most forgiving countries in the world but it only works when we become a true melting pot. My family did not become successful in America by demanding everyone speak German or French. No they learned English and blended their culture with the other cultures to make a new better stronger culture. And on the subject of not getting involved in the worlds business lets talk about places like Haiti. We help ,its not enough,we don't we are greedy assholes who don't care. Can have it both ways. We tried the whole staying out of the worlds business. We got a bombing for our trouble,remember pearl harbor. Just some thoughts.
Ray
[/quote]

I see where you guys are coming. You feel these alien values are being forced on you. All of a sudden after years of status quo, fried chicken and budweiser, football and old glory,people want to do things differently. Those of us that had ancestors from overseas got to participate in an aclimation exercise,bubble on down in the melting pot and become American. They learned English,took American names, adjusted, blended, became one. They held their little ethnic ceremonies at home on the holidays ate lasagna,keilbasa,sauerbraten etc. If you feel that way then you CAN understand the way a Muslim feels in his own country when American culture invades HIS peace of mind, via TV,radio, youth etc. He feels he is being forced to accept YOUR budwieser. He is scared that a global culture will erode the very foundations of his life. Its ethnocentricism, we want to think our way is best. Now we have overreacted. France has banned the nijab, the Swiss, the minaret. Muslims close off their world too, no infidels in Mecca, voilence and terrorism. But if this is to end, all this fear, all this madness, it MUST begin with tolerance and understanding. In the end globalization will come, Saudi girls will wear miniskirts,the call to prayer will echo down your street. You'll still drink your bud, she will cover her head. Globalization will not completely wipe out other cultures, things will change as they always have,but we each will retain a certain pride in our own heritage, our own customs. But instead we each will a little more to give to other guy and the world will grow richer. Used to be they only delivered mail, now you pizza, chinese,thai, mexican, whatever at your door. Think of that way, a bigger menu.....Bon Appetite!

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284930961' post='482571']
[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1284925658' post='482565']
Sorry folks but I understand where noodle is coming from. Its one thing to respect someones culture but there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
How would you feel if someone came into your house invited or not and pissed on your couch then demanded your wife cover her face and said this all in their language not yours. America is one of the most forgiving countries in the world but it only works when we become a true melting pot. My family did not become successful in America by demanding everyone speak German or French. No they learned English and blended their culture with the other cultures to make a new better stronger culture. And on the subject of not getting involved in the worlds business lets talk about places like Haiti. We help ,its not enough,we don't we are greedy assholes who don't care. Can have it both ways. We tried the whole staying out of the worlds business. We got a bombing for our trouble,remember pearl harbor. Just some thoughts.
Ray
[/quote]

Let me also say, that I do understand where his perspective is coming from as well. I do know what he's getting at. But entire cultures have been lost through history because one was deemed as "less than" or "not as valid as". And humanity loses every time that happens. And when you're talking about someone's faith that same history has shown that if you really want to go for genocide on a grand scale, just bring God into the mix. But that's what tolerance is all about. Learning why someone feels a certain way rather than just dismissing it. You must be able to say, okay, I'm not thrilled about that and I'm not going to adopt it, but I don't mind that you do. And we're still not talking about one woman who decided to draw Mohammed. She instead decided to create a world wide controversy. For example, I find crime scene photos offensives. But during a trial, you need to see the photos. So a depiction is valid. But I'm not organizing a world wide movement to publish crime scene photos on every wall. That's essentially what she chose to do. Had she as an artist painted a depiction of Mohammed received the Qur'an from God, hardly anyone would have noticed. But that's not what she choose to do. She chose controversy, she chose insult. Publicly. Not informative, not depiction for historical or informative purposes. For insult. And that is not acceptable.

'Rani
[/quote]

Keep in mind that the desire to insult didn't come out of the blue. It came out of the Danish cartoon controversy which itself was a commentary on the public face that Islam presents. She was, in effect, saying "Look how touchy these people are!"

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938883' post='482580']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284930961' post='482571']
[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1284925658' post='482565']
Sorry folks but I understand where noodle is coming from. Its one thing to respect someones culture but there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough.
How would you feel if someone came into your house invited or not and pissed on your couch then demanded your wife cover her face and said this all in their language not yours. America is one of the most forgiving countries in the world but it only works when we become a true melting pot. My family did not become successful in America by demanding everyone speak German or French. No they learned English and blended their culture with the other cultures to make a new better stronger culture. And on the subject of not getting involved in the worlds business lets talk about places like Haiti. We help ,its not enough,we don't we are greedy assholes who don't care. Can have it both ways. We tried the whole staying out of the worlds business. We got a bombing for our trouble,remember pearl harbor. Just some thoughts.
Ray
[/quote]

Let me also say, that I do understand where his perspective is coming from as well. I do know what he's getting at. But entire cultures have been lost through history because one was deemed as "less than" or "not as valid as". And humanity loses every time that happens. And when you're talking about someone's faith that same history has shown that if you really want to go for genocide on a grand scale, just bring God into the mix. But that's what tolerance is all about. Learning why someone feels a certain way rather than just dismissing it. You must be able to say, okay, I'm not thrilled about that and I'm not going to adopt it, but I don't mind that you do. And we're still not talking about one woman who decided to draw Mohammed. She instead decided to create a world wide controversy. For example, I find crime scene photos offensives. But during a trial, you need to see the photos. So a depiction is valid. But I'm not organizing a world wide movement to publish crime scene photos on every wall. That's essentially what she chose to do. Had she as an artist painted a depiction of Mohammed received the Qur'an from God, hardly anyone would have noticed. But that's not what she choose to do. She chose controversy, she chose insult. Publicly. Not informative, not depiction for historical or informative purposes. For insult. And that is not acceptable.

'Rani
[/quote]

Keep in mind that the desire to insult didn't come out of the blue. It came out of the Danish cartoon controversy which itself was a commentary on the public face that Islam presents. She was, in effect, saying "Look how touchy these people are!"
[/quote]

That's like walking into a lions den, waking him with a tug on the tail and then trying to claim he's unreasonably territorial about his den. What was the point if not to irritate and insult?

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939769' post='482582']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938883' post='482580']

Keep in mind that the desire to insult didn't come out of the blue. It came out of the Danish cartoon controversy which itself was a commentary on the public face that Islam presents. She was, in effect, saying "Look how touchy these people are!"
[/quote]

That's like walking into a lions den, waking him with a tug on the tail and then trying to claim he's unreasonably territorial about his den. What was the point if not to irritate and insult?

'Rani
[/quote]

Bad example. See where I said "...commentary on the public face...".

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939498' post='482581']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.

'Rani
[/quote]

Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939498' post='482581']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. [color="#FF0000"][b]While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.
[/b][/color]
'Rani
[/quote]

Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

I already answer that.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939498' post='482581']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.

'Rani
[/quote]

Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

Let me try this again.......

Okay, I'm sitting in a park. I'm minding my own business, reading a book. You come along and sit near me, without a book. You're not bothering me. You're not insisting I stop reading. You're quietly minding your own business, not bothering anybody, least of all me. I reach over and poke you in the arm. Why on earth would I do that, you wonder? Maybe you move a couple inches away. I poke you again. And I tell you that I don't like that you're not reading. If you're going to be in the park, you have to read. Your not reading in the park is offensive to me and since I was there first my opinion about reading is the only one that matters. You refuse still, you don't want to read, so instead I yell to everyone in the park that you should be reading. I insist that you have to be reading because you're in the park and I invite everyone in the park to help me gang up on you because you're not reading.

That's exactly what she did.

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284943334' post='482586']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939498' post='482581']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. [color="#ff0000"][b]While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.
[/b][/color]
'Rani
[/quote]

Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

I already answer that.

'Rani
[/quote]

Then why is it a bad thing for someone in the Western world to criticize or ridicule Muhammad?

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284944098' post='482588']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

Let me try this again.......

Okay, I'm sitting in a park. I'm minding my own business, reading a book. You come along and sit near me, without a book. You're not bothering me. You're not insisting I stop reading. You're quietly minding your own business, not bothering anybody, least of all me. I reach over and poke you in the arm. Why on earth would I do that, you wonder? Maybe you move a couple inches away. I poke you again. And I tell you that I don't like that you're not reading. If you're going to be in the park, you have to read. Your not reading in the park is offensive to me and since I was there first my opinion about reading is the only one that matters. You refuse still, you don't want to read, so instead I yell to everyone in the park that you should be reading. I insist that you have to be reading because you're in the park and I invite everyone in the park to help me gang up on you because you're not reading.

That's exactly what she did.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm not making any sense of that. Try this: Alice is sitting in a park talking to a group of people about why broccoli is bad. Bob holds broccoli to be holy and therefore pictures shouldn't be drawn of it. Bob is infuriated that people are besmirching his holy vegetable and even drawing pictures of it. Bob demands Alice and her listeners to stop bashing broccoli. Alice shrugs and says "What's your problem? We don't like broccoli. What's it to you?".

[mustafabey]

Oh my God! Heaven forbid, besmirching Holy Vegetables! What next??????????????????????????????????????

[mustafabey]

This may be relevant


sorry Noddle i couldn't having a little laugh here Its called Holy Broccoli courtesy deviantart

[noodle]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1284948941' post='482592']
Oh my God! Heaven forbid, besmirching Holy Vegetables! What next??????????????????????????????????????
[/quote]

In all seriousness, I love broccoli. I just picked it at random.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284947620' post='482590']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284943334' post='482586']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939498' post='482581']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. [color="#ff0000"][b]While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.
[/b][/color]
'Rani
[/quote]

Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

I already answer that.

'Rani
[/quote]

Then why is it a bad thing for someone in the Western world to criticize or ridicule Muhammad?
[/quote]

Did I not tell you several posts ago, you weren't going to get it? It's called respect. RESPECT. If you don't give it, you don't get it.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284948387' post='482591']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284944098' post='482588']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

Let me try this again.......

Okay, I'm sitting in a park. I'm minding my own business, reading a book. You come along and sit near me, without a book. You're not bothering me. You're not insisting I stop reading. You're quietly minding your own business, not bothering anybody, least of all me. I reach over and poke you in the arm. Why on earth would I do that, you wonder? Maybe you move a couple inches away. I poke you again. And I tell you that I don't like that you're not reading. If you're going to be in the park, you have to read. Your not reading in the park is offensive to me and since I was there first my opinion about reading is the only one that matters. You refuse still, you don't want to read, so instead I yell to everyone in the park that you should be reading. I insist that you have to be reading because you're in the park and [b][color="#4B0082"]I invite everyone in the park to help me gang up on you [/color][/b]because you're not reading.

That's exactly what she did.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm not making any sense of that. Try this: Alice is sitting in a park talking to a group of people about why broccoli is bad. Bob holds broccoli to be holy and therefore pictures shouldn't be drawn of it. Bob is infuriated that people are besmirching his holy vegetable and even drawing pictures of it. Bob demands Alice and her listeners to stop bashing broccoli. Alice shrugs and says "What's your problem? We don't like broccoli. What's it to you?".
[/quote]

That would depend on whether or not he tried to get the entire world in on his personal vendetta against people who don't like broccoli, wouldn't it? The woman tried to get the entire world against their religious prohibition. How does that not compute?

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284951035' post='482595']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284947620' post='482590']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284943334' post='482586']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284939498' post='482581']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284938546' post='482579']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284923984' post='482564']
[color="#4b0082"][b]Noodle, I know you're feeling very attacked and misunderstood, but we're not trying to attack you. We're trying to open your mind to other potentials and with those potentials comes respect and tolerance. Your stance has been that the tradition is backwards and mot modern or fitting with Western culture, however let me ask you this......... Who do you think this woman is afraid of? Is some Afghani Muslim from a remote village going to show up on her doorstep and attack her? No..... She's hiding from Western Muslims who are offended. Modern Muslims born and raised in Western culture. They are the one offended. Your Western superiority theory isn't logical.[/b][/color]

[color="#4b0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]
[/quote]

I know that remote villagers are not of concern. I am very interested in why these Westen Muslims think it's okay to force their taboos on others.
[/quote]

Do you realize that this is the first time you've asked "Why" in this discussion? They are not insisting that you personally abstain from depiction of Mohammed. They aren't going into libraries destroyed books with medieval pictures of Mohammed for example. They are up in arms about someone who intentionally went after their taboo. Can you understand the difference? Again, I'm not trying to be insulting but it's a key part of the issue. Muslims have a taboo against drawing Mohammed. It exists quietly in both Eastern and Western Muslim society without notice, without anyone getting upset, because non-Muslims didn't question it and Muslims didn't try and force it on non-Muslims. And then along comes someone who intentionally insults them. Who intentionally tried to draw them into controversy. [color="#ff0000"][b]While they were quietly going about their business not enforcing their restriction on you or anyone else. It's not and has never been about them forcing their taboo on anyone else. It;s about them having their taboo actively and intentionally violated.
[/b][/color]
'Rani
[/quote]

Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

I already answer that.

'Rani
[/quote]

Then why is it a bad thing for someone in the Western world to criticize or ridicule Muhammad?
[/quote]

Did I not tell you several posts ago, you weren't going to get it? It's called respect. RESPECT. If you don't give it, you don't get it.

'Rani
[/quote]

Respect cannot be compelled. It must be earned. How does threatening detractors garner respect?

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284951184' post='482597']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284948387' post='482591']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1284944098' post='482588']
[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1284943137' post='482585']
Nobody is forcing them to sit down and draw pictures. That would be having their taboo violated. I have no such taboo. Why should I adopt that taboo?
[/quote]

Let me try this again.......

Okay, I'm sitting in a park. I'm minding my own business, reading a book. You come along and sit near me, without a book. You're not bothering me. You're not insisting I stop reading. You're quietly minding your own business, not bothering anybody, least of all me. I reach over and poke you in the arm. Why on earth would I do that, you wonder? Maybe you move a couple inches away. I poke you again. And I tell you that I don't like that you're not reading. If you're going to be in the park, you have to read. Your not reading in the park is offensive to me and since I was there first my opinion about reading is the only one that matters. You refuse still, you don't want to read, so instead I yell to everyone in the park that you should be reading. I insist that you have to be reading because you're in the park and [b][color="#4b0082"]I invite everyone in the park to help me gang up on you [/color][/b]because you're not reading.

That's exactly what she did.

'Rani
[/quote]

I'm not making any sense of that. Try this: Alice is sitting in a park talking to a group of people about why broccoli is bad. Bob holds broccoli to be holy and therefore pictures shouldn't be drawn of it. Bob is infuriated that people are besmirching his holy vegetable and even drawing pictures of it. Bob demands Alice and her listeners to stop bashing broccoli. Alice shrugs and says "What's your problem? We don't like broccoli. What's it to you?".
[/quote]

That would depend on whether or not he tried to get the entire world in on his personal vendetta against people who don't like broccoli, wouldn't it? The woman tried to get the entire world against their religious prohibition. How does that not compute?

'Rani
[/quote]

It doesn't matter if Bob gets lots of people in on his vendetta or if he does it on his own. He has no right to interfere in Alice's dislike of broccoli. He may say "you're cooking it wrong" start preaching about how broccoli is wonderful, or simply say "you're full of albatross guano", but he may not legitimately interfere with Alice's actions. Conversely, Alice has no right to go on a rampage stamping out broccoli.