The Illusion Of Peace

[Venger]

Peace,What is it? A lack of war? Maybe getting your way? letting other get theirs? maybe. After 46 years on the planet I have decided peace is an illusion. The lie we tell ourselves to sleep at night. History has taught us there are two types of people. The conquerors and the conquered. This of coarse is overly simplified but that is what we have seen. The reason the peace that we had with the USSR lasted as long as it did is the assured destruction of both sides. But now we have new players. They don't care if they are destroyed in the process. You can't make deals with this mentality
Lets start with the premise that your enemy wants you dead or enslaved. You ask them not to kill you.They say NO. You ask what you can do for them so they will not kill you,their answer is nothing,they want you dead and that is all. How about we leave you alone? NO you must die. OK how about we let you kill 1/3 of us but you let 2/3 live.NO all of you must die. How can I stop you from killing me. You can't unless you kill us first. Your not fighting a person or a people,your fighting an idea.you can not negotiate with an idea. We see this all the time in history. How many tribes here in America,Africa or The middle east. I don't really no where I am going with this just putting it out there to chew on.
Ray

[noodle]

[b]Si vis pacem, para bellum[/b]

[kmccoy90]

Peace is not an illusion. Peace exists throughout the world, we just choose to overlook it.

Peace comes from understanding. We will never have peace as long as we continue to misunderstand each other. While it's up to both parties to work towards this goal, we certainly don't make it any easier by perpetuating an accepted ignorance throughout our country of any culture that isn't our own. We are, in this instance, the more civilized and rational society. Shouldn't we act like it?

[Venger]

[quote name='kmccoy90' timestamp='1285037539' post='482664']
Peace is not an illusion. Peace exists throughout the world, we just choose to overlook it.

Peace comes from understanding. We will never have peace as long as we continue to misunderstand each other. While it's up to both parties to work towards this goal, we certainly don't make it any easier by perpetuating an accepted ignorance throughout our country of any culture that isn't our own. We are, in this instance, the more civilized and rational society. Shouldn't we act like it?
[/quote]

but that is like understanding a shark. I know what it is. I know what it does. I can choose to ignore it and take the chance of being eaten. I suppose I could stay out of the water but I have every right to swim on a hot summer say.I can't reason with the shark I can only protect myself against it. either armor myself or kill the big fish with huge teeth. There is no peace with sharks.
Ray

[mustafabey]

[quote name='kmccoy90' timestamp='1285037539' post='482664']
Peace is not an illusion. Peace exists throughout the world, we just choose to overlook it.

Peace comes from understanding. We will never have peace as long as we continue to misunderstand each other. While it's up to both parties to work towards this goal, we certainly don't make it any easier by perpetuating an accepted ignorance throughout our country of any culture that isn't our own. We are, in this instance, the more civilized and rational society. Shouldn't we act like it?
[/quote]

Thats about a simple as it gets. We tend to look at peace from our own side only. We want peace, they don't. First off its the politicians and weapons purveyors that want war. The way they get support is to engender hate. That's whats going on today. War is money, easy money. peace can be money, but it might take effort. Global dynamics at the moment pretty much put peace on the back burner. Israel seeks peace due to American pressure, Obama seeks peace cause its an election year, Iranians want peace, but are afraid so they rattle sabers.Fundamentalist christians want Armageddon, so Jesus will return. Salafi and Wahabi Muslims want to drive the Jews into the sea and restore Islam to glory(albeit they lost their glory by embracing an intractable fundamentalism). The only thing America sells overseas today without much competition(at least quality wise) is arms. If we have peace, we get the granddaddy of all depressions. So as long as we picture them different and less human we can slaughter them without guilt. Places like Afghanistan and Iraq are great cash engines and in the end, unfortunately cash means more than peace.
Yet, progress always wins sooner or later, so although we may not acheive peace we move towards it, two steps forward and one step back.
I understand your frustration, Ray, but peace is a two way street and we need to clean our side of the street if we expect the other guy to do the same. Militant Islam is a mosquito compared to the nuclear stand offs of the cold war, and as global politics continue to grow toward domination of energy sources and watersheds,militant Islam will fade into history like the Barbary pirates.

[kmccoy90]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1285068511' post='482689']
[quote name='kmccoy90' timestamp='1285037539' post='482664']
Peace is not an illusion. Peace exists throughout the world, we just choose to overlook it.

Peace comes from understanding. We will never have peace as long as we continue to misunderstand each other. While it's up to both parties to work towards this goal, we certainly don't make it any easier by perpetuating an accepted ignorance throughout our country of any culture that isn't our own. We are, in this instance, the more civilized and rational society. Shouldn't we act like it?
[/quote]

but that is like understanding a shark. I know what it is. I know what it does. I can choose to ignore it and take the chance of being eaten. I suppose I could stay out of the water but I have every right to swim on a hot summer say.I can't reason with the shark I can only protect myself against it. either armor myself or kill the big fish with huge teeth. There is no peace with sharks.
Ray
[/quote]


It's not about ignoring the shark. It's about understanding and respecting the shark. If we are sympathetic with the shark's need to eat, and know that if we provoke it, we'll be its next meal, we can logically come to the conclusion that we should simply respect the shark and leave it alone. I'm not walking around in armor, nor am I killing sharks, and I'm certainly still alive.

Not everyone is capable of getting along, but that doesn't mean we should go around forcing interaction. Don't mistake peace for friendship. Peace is about respect, understanding and compromise. There are many people that I'm not friends with - people with whom I disagree and try to avoid association, but that doesn't mean that when we're required to work together that we can't respect one another's point of view and cooperate peacefully.

[mustafabey]

It may also be about realizing that we are the shark. Those that oppose us do so for reasons they find as compelling as ours. We all want to impose our belief systems on others. In doing so, we congratulate ourselves by bringing freedom and democracy to an ignorant world. Or Sharia law, or communism, or the Greater East Asia Coprosperiity Sphere. As globalism begins to take hold, we may begin to see ourselves as a whole people, equal and united in pursuit of what we in America call life,liberty and happiness, but a life liberty and happiness of our own definition. I have often thought that this unity of man will only come when threatened by another form of life from another galaxy. But as we demolish Mother Earth for profit, she may provide the unifying glue needed as we run out of energy, food and water.

[porksandwich9113]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1285029838' post='482656']
Peace,What is it? A lack of war? Maybe getting your way? letting other get theirs? maybe. After 46 years on the planet I have decided peace is an illusion. The lie we tell ourselves to sleep at night. History has taught us there are two types of people. The conquerors and the conquered. This of coarse is overly simplified but that is what we have seen. The reason the peace that we had with the USSR lasted as long as it did is the assured destruction of both sides. But now we have new players. They don't care if they are destroyed in the process. You can't make deals with this mentality
Lets start with the premise that your enemy wants you dead or enslaved. You ask them not to kill you.They say NO. You ask what you can do for them so they will not kill you,their answer is nothing,they want you dead and that is all. How about we leave you alone? NO you must die. OK how about we let you kill 1/3 of us but you let 2/3 live.NO all of you must die. How can I stop you from killing me. You can't unless you kill us first. Your not fighting a person or a people,your fighting an idea.you can not negotiate with an idea. We see this all the time in history. How many tribes here in America,Africa or The middle east. I don't really no where I am going with this just putting it out there to chew on.
Ray
[/quote]

Peace is understanding. It's the ability to look far past your own beliefs & knowledge and understand and embrace one others.
It is understanding that between muslim, jewish, hindu, christian and everything in between we are all humans.
It is understanding that between black, white, red, brown, and everything in between we are all humans.

We are the same. We are ONE people.

Lets start with the premise that your enemy wants you dead or enslaved.

WHY? Why? Because you have a different faith? You have a different belief system? Your skin is a different color? Your culture is different?
What is their logical, evidence backed up, empirical data supported reason?
If they don't have one, then something is wrong. Some logic based thought process that should tell them what they are doing is wrong. Something that 99.5% of all the people in the world have, that .5% of radical people are missing from their gene pool. What you ask?

Intelligence. Intelligence leads to understanding. Understanding leads to tolerance. Tolerance leads to acceptance. Acceptance leads to embracing.
Without that intelligence step you will stay an ignorant moron for your entire life. And that we why this world is not at peace. People are too fucking stupid.

[Venger]

I agree that understanding and tolerance are key to peace. What I am suggesting is they are not obtainable, at least not now and probably not in my life time. I am a very pro-diversity guy. I don't care what color your skin is or who you pray to. I am a student of the world and have studied many different people (usually through their food).
I am a lover not a fighter. But I do carry a gun. Why you may ask? Because I know there are people who want my stuff. On a small scale the guy who wants my money because its easier to take it than earn it.On a grander scale Someone wants my country for it room and natural resources or lastly my freedom. I bid no one any ill will nor do I want their stuff. If I could be sure they felt the same and acted that way I would give up my protection. But don't be naive their is always gonna be someone who wants what you have and when you are at your weakest they will take it by force. It is easy to sit behind your desk with all your toys thinking of ways to make the world a better place and for gosh sakes don't stop trying, but don't think for one minute everyone shares your goal for peace and they never will.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1285096188' post='482728']
I agree that understanding and tolerance are key to peace. What I am suggesting is they are not obtainable, at least not now and probably not in my life time. I am a very pro-diversity guy. I don't care what color your skin is or who you pray to. I am a student of the world and have studied many different people (usually through their food).
I am a lover not a fighter. But I do carry a gun. Why you may ask? Because I know there are people who want my stuff. On a small scale the guy who wants my money because its easier to take it than earn it.On a grander scale Someone wants my country for it room and natural resources or lastly my freedom. I bid no one any ill will nor do I want their stuff. If I could be sure they felt the same and acted that way I would give up my protection. But don't be naive their is always gonna be someone who wants what you have and when you are at your weakest they will take it by force. It is easy to sit behind your desk with all your toys thinking of ways to make the world a better place and for gosh sakes don't stop trying, but don't think for one minute everyone shares your goal for peace and they never will.
Ray
[/quote]

From what you write here and other posts I've observed before, I'm going to say something I hope you will keep an open mind to. I think it's possible that you have never personally experienced a true sensation of peace. Wariness comes not from a peaceful place but a fearful one. Seeing shadows where they may or may not exist. I'm not being all fantasy sunshine and roses, but for every person who is a danger to peace and balance there is someone who also works to maintain it. For every criminal, there is a person under moral, even holy direction to harm none. There's a balance to be found in peace. To know that yes, there are things in the world that can harm you, but not to assume they exist around every corner. When you face potential peace from a constant standpoint of wariness, you stand out of it's reach.

Peace has to be found first on the inside of each of us, like a tiny point of light within each of us, that has to spread to those you come in contact with. Igniting tiny cinders inside of others that will in turn grow and ignite that same light within others they meet. It's spreads almost like a virus carried from person to person, in this case not carrying death, but a choice to become better, and bring a better world into being with us.

Having known peace, and non-peace, I promise you peace is easier. Much much easier. When you have that balance, that sense of stillness and compassion inside you, everything, absolutely everything, is easier. If you want a lazy life, choose a peaceful one. The only barrier is to being open to it. Many people think of it almost as an abstract thing and never look for it within themselves. Until that personal spark is found and ignited, it's impossible to know it as other than an ideal, never felt or completely understood from the depth of our soul. Once experienced at our souls depth, it can't help but change you. Because it is so much better than before that you can't help but keep returning to it.

So yes, I do believe peace is achievable and even if our lifetimes if we start feeding it's light within ourselves first. And then start spreading it around.

'Rani

[Tyler]

There is more peace than not in this world.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285099726' post='482735']
[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1285096188' post='482728']
I agree that understanding and tolerance are key to peace. What I am suggesting is they are not obtainable, at least not now and probably not in my life time. I am a very pro-diversity guy. I don't care what color your skin is or who you pray to. I am a student of the world and have studied many different people (usually through their food).
I am a lover not a fighter. But I do carry a gun. Why you may ask? Because I know there are people who want my stuff. On a small scale the guy who wants my money because its easier to take it than earn it.On a grander scale Someone wants my country for it room and natural resources or lastly my freedom. I bid no one any ill will nor do I want their stuff. If I could be sure they felt the same and acted that way I would give up my protection. But don't be naive their is always gonna be someone who wants what you have and when you are at your weakest they will take it by force. It is easy to sit behind your desk with all your toys thinking of ways to make the world a better place and for gosh sakes don't stop trying, but don't think for one minute everyone shares your goal for peace and they never will.
Ray
[/quote]

From what you write here and other posts I've observed before, I'm going to say something I hope you will keep an open mind to. I think it's possible that you have never personally experienced a true sensation of peace. Wariness comes not from a peaceful place but a fearful one. Seeing shadows where they may or may not exist. I'm not being all fantasy sunshine and roses, but for every person who is a danger to peace and balance there is someone who also works to maintain it. For every criminal, there is a person under moral, even holy direction to harm none. There's a balance to be found in peace. To know that yes, there are things in the world that can harm you, but not to assume they exist around every corner. When you face potential peace from a constant standpoint of wariness, you stand out of it's reach.

Peace has to be found first on the inside of each of us, like a tiny point of light within each of us, that has to spread to those you come in contact with. Igniting tiny cinders inside of others that will in turn grow and ignite that same light within others they meet. It's spreads almost like a virus carried from person to person, in this case not carrying death, but a choice to become better, and bring a better world into being with us.

Having known peace, and non-peace, I promise you peace is easier. Much much easier. When you have that balance, that sense of stillness and compassion inside you, everything, absolutely everything, is easier. If you want a lazy life, choose a peaceful one. The only barrier is to being open to it. Many people think of it almost as an abstract thing and never look for it within themselves. Until that personal spark is found and ignited, it's impossible to know it as other than an ideal, never felt or completely understood from the depth of our soul. Once experienced at our souls depth, it can't help but change you. Because it is so much better than before that you can't help but keep returning to it.

So yes, I do believe peace is achievable and even if our lifetimes if we start feeding it's light within ourselves first. And then start spreading it around.

'Rani
[/quote]


The above was brought to you by too many old beetles albums, and road trips in the flower-power van.


peace is achieved when there are no more people trying to kill you. Sometimes it is a result of them deciding to cease hostile actions, more often it is a result of their assumption of room temperature.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1285562515' post='483239']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285099726' post='482735']
[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1285096188' post='482728']
I agree that understanding and tolerance are key to peace. What I am suggesting is they are not obtainable, at least not now and probably not in my life time. I am a very pro-diversity guy. I don't care what color your skin is or who you pray to. I am a student of the world and have studied many different people (usually through their food).
I am a lover not a fighter. But I do carry a gun. Why you may ask? Because I know there are people who want my stuff. On a small scale the guy who wants my money because its easier to take it than earn it.On a grander scale Someone wants my country for it room and natural resources or lastly my freedom. I bid no one any ill will nor do I want their stuff. If I could be sure they felt the same and acted that way I would give up my protection. But don't be naive their is always gonna be someone who wants what you have and when you are at your weakest they will take it by force. It is easy to sit behind your desk with all your toys thinking of ways to make the world a better place and for gosh sakes don't stop trying, but don't think for one minute everyone shares your goal for peace and they never will.
Ray
[/quote]

From what you write here and other posts I've observed before, I'm going to say something I hope you will keep an open mind to. I think it's possible that you have never personally experienced a true sensation of peace. Wariness comes not from a peaceful place but a fearful one. Seeing shadows where they may or may not exist. I'm not being all fantasy sunshine and roses, but for every person who is a danger to peace and balance there is someone who also works to maintain it. For every criminal, there is a person under moral, even holy direction to harm none. There's a balance to be found in peace. To know that yes, there are things in the world that can harm you, but not to assume they exist around every corner. When you face potential peace from a constant standpoint of wariness, you stand out of it's reach.

Peace has to be found first on the inside of each of us, like a tiny point of light within each of us, that has to spread to those you come in contact with. Igniting tiny cinders inside of others that will in turn grow and ignite that same light within others they meet. It's spreads almost like a virus carried from person to person, in this case not carrying death, but a choice to become better, and bring a better world into being with us.

Having known peace, and non-peace, I promise you peace is easier. Much much easier. When you have that balance, that sense of stillness and compassion inside you, everything, absolutely everything, is easier. If you want a lazy life, choose a peaceful one. The only barrier is to being open to it. Many people think of it almost as an abstract thing and never look for it within themselves. Until that personal spark is found and ignited, it's impossible to know it as other than an ideal, never felt or completely understood from the depth of our soul. Once experienced at our souls depth, it can't help but change you. Because it is so much better than before that you can't help but keep returning to it.

So yes, I do believe peace is achievable and even if our lifetimes if we start feeding it's light within ourselves first. And then start spreading it around.

'Rani
[/quote]


The above was brought to you by too many old beetles albums, and road trips in the flower-power van.


peace is achieved when there are no more people trying to kill you. Sometimes it is a result of them deciding to cease hostile actions, more often it is a result of their assumption of room temperature.
[/quote]

Took you almost a week for that comeback? Old age finally kicking in darlin'?

Just because something seems impossible to achieve, doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Without attempting the seemingly impossible, the 4 minute mile would have never been run, the sound barrier never broken. If it's worth having, even if it seems an impossibility, it's worth working towards.

'Rani

[rahl071]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285563504' post='483242']
Just because something seems impossible to achieve, doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Without attempting the seemingly impossible, the 4 minute mile would have never been run, the sound barrier never broken. If it's worth having, even if it seems an impossibility, it's worth working towards.

'Rani
[/quote]

While I do not agree with the Scotsman, I don't think this is a true statement either. The 4 minute mile, 768 miles per hour-these are quantifiable and can be achieved with an established method. The 4-minute mile? Train, have natural aptitude (granted), but it's still something of a mathematical equation. Want to break the sound barrier? Build a vehicle with enough horsepower and durability to survive moving faster than sound. While these are simplified, let's take the concept of peace.

If you were to look at it mathematically, every person who has a desire to see some end achieved (whether via personal belief, indoctrination, coercion, etcetera) is now a variable, one tied to infinitely more variables that influence the desire for that achievement, that can at any time change. To ever say that "world peace" will be achieved will be impossible without SOME show of force. There will always be a fly in the ointment as long as people aren't reduced to a mindless, numb behavior (think the movie Equilibrium). The real question is this: for "peace" to be achieved, are we willing to go to any end to obtain it, and if so do the ends justify the means?


I hate to use a movie for quotes, but as said by Alfred in Batman: The Dark Knight: "...Some men aren't looking for anything logical like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." As long as these people exist and are granted free will, there will never be peace. The only way to be rid of these people is not with understanding, respect, or tolerance. Sadly, The Scotsman is right on this count. Somewhere on the chain that makes up society, there will have to be at least one link made of force.

Granted, I'm not a warmonger, I hate the concept of killing my fellow man. But, If it ever becomes a situation of "you versus them," good luck surviving using tolerance, respect, or understanding. I agree with 'Rani on the point of this though: impossible is just a solution that hasn't been found yet. I hope everything I said in this post is eventually proven wrong-for all our sakes.

[kmccoy90]

Change "4 minute mile" and "sound barrier" to "women's rights" and "civil rights" and then try to offer a rebuttal.

[Yasseah]

The world's elite don't profit on peace.


Also, as humans, we are carnal beasts. It's what we are and genes don't care about peace and happiness.

Utopia and world peace are a fallacy, just take the good with the bad and live with it.

[Rani]

[quote name='Yasseah' timestamp='1285609610' post='483299']
The world's elite don't profit on peace.


Also, as humans, we are carnal beasts. It's what we are and genes don't care about peace and happiness.

Utopia and world peace are a fallacy, just take the good with the bad and live with it.
[/quote]

Well, you of course are entitled to your opinion.

I subscribe to the process of nurture over nature. I don't buy humanity somehow being condemned by our genetic ancestry.

Lucky for you, should those of us who intend to keep trying to achieve it, actually accomplish it, you benefit as well.

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285617717' post='483317']
[quote name='Yasseah' timestamp='1285609610' post='483299']
The world's elite don't profit on peace.

Also, as humans, we are carnal beasts. It's what we are and genes don't care about peace and happiness.

Utopia and world peace are a fallacy, just take the good with the bad and live with it.
[/quote]

Well, you of course are entitled to your opinion.

I subscribe to the process of nurture over nature. I don't buy humanity somehow being condemned by our genetic ancestry.

Lucky for you, should those of us who intend to keep trying to achieve it, actually accomplish it, you benefit as well.

'Rani
[/quote]

Consider basic game theory. Your world view requires everyone to be altruistic. That is proven to not work. There will always be someone who doesn't want to follow the rules. Depending on how far a person has gone down that road, he might not respond to logic and reason. Force is necessary in those cases.

[Eric Cartman]

world peace can be achieved when individuals are at peace with themselves.

[Chaz1337]

[quote name='Eric Cartman' timestamp='1287726232' post='485883']
world peace can be achieved when individuals are at peace with themselves.
[/quote]

First post in Serious Discussion Forum with a Nazi Hitler Avatar on a site dedicated Hookah and current hookah news...

Really?

Also while I do believe Peace will only be achieved after the 2nd coming of Christ during his 1000 year reign on earth its something that we as Humans SHOULD work for at the very least to better our world. HOWEVER I also believe in the right to DEFEND what you believe in and if that means ending some sort of notion of peace then so be it.

"If you want peace then prepare for war..."

[GoldenFingerBl4ster99]

It is possible, anything is in fact possible. IMO you would have to rebuild civilization from the ground up. The fact is people always do what they want, they will choose whatever brings the most pleasure or the least pain, to structure a civilization where a persons preferred choice in any given situation would not harm nor diminish another individuals quality of life. That is obviously not the situation in the world we live in today. Opportunities to capitalize on the losses of individuals, harm and death of others etc. are all around us. So in that sense the idea of peace is unachievable. A total reform of how we pursue the acquisition of happiness is unquestionably needed to attain peace. In north america, even if you are the biggest world peace advocate in the world, simply going out and buying a pack of bottled water or almost anything for that matter these days, has an indirect negative influence on world peace.

I also believe that religion has massively negative implications on sustainable world peace. I understand that this will make some people mad but hear me out. A religion is something you believe in, you're either in or out, you can't go half way like some people try to. If you say you condone and believe somethings in the bible but not others, then you are contradicting the part you allegedly believe in, since religion is in fact a dogmatism. People try to make the argument that religion encourages diversity throughout the world, but it does nothing but the opposite. Diversity is when people form their own opinions around the world, create their own morals and virtues based on experiences they have had in their lifetimes. Not by reading a book that tells you how you should live your life and whats right and wrong. Not only does the bible contain passage condoning rape, pillaging and murder, but it tells people that others who don't agree with these predetermined morals and justifications are going to go to hell. What do people associate with hell? Bad people. So in a simplistic form it teaches people that because they think a certain way they are above others. I understand that not everyone that is religious thinks this way. But if they truly believed in everything the bible said, they would. The things is most people who consider themselves civilized but also religious are contradicting themselves. This is because the part of them that they call civilized, is just basically stating that they believe in god but don't condone all the rape, murder and pillaging and talk of non believers going to hell that's in the bible. The fact is, more natural forms of religion are still practiced in which we call less civilized parts of the world. But the truth is, we call these people less civilized because they simply haven't forgotten about all the violence included in their respective books of religion. So you could make the argument that they are far more religious than a normal 9-5 american that believes just simply believes in God and being nice to people no matter what race or religious views are. But religions in their purest form are simply not always that PEACEFUL and purer practices of religion still exist all over the world. This is why I believe religion is a threat to global peace. It is important to note that although I obviously have many disagreements with religion I am certainly not blaming it entirely for for the lack of peace in the world today.

All in all, our situation is far to complex and the only way I think peace will ever be achieved among humanity is if there is an apocalypse and the remaining survivors are very peaceful people with brilliant ideas for the future.

Peace out!