Don'T Ask,Don'T Tell

[mustafabey]

Lady Gaga made the news recently by getting involved in the gays in the military debate. Of course, Congress put off the vote, probably till after the election. I consider myself fairly liberal, especially concerning social issues. I am also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and the Vietnam conflict. My military was straight, circa 1965 and if you were found to be gay you were forced out of the service. I saw a few guys literally disappear during my enlistments. Today things are different, I reckon and maybe gays want to serve our country' The general being considered for the next commandant of the Marine Corps said his peace about the issue. He has reservations and doesn't think, given the special nature of the Marine Corps that it would work. I have to stand with Gen. Amos on this issue. I find it hard to accept gays in the Marines. This maybe latent homophobia working or some good old Marine Corps brainwashing still in my mind. I'm not particularly homophobic. I've had gay friends and co workers and never had a problem with that. I just see it as disruptive in the military. Am i being old fashioned, prejudiced or too rigid. I'd like to hear what you'all think regarding this matter.

[Rani]

Never having been in the military, it's a weird one for me, so take my opinion as more Middle America sort of angle. I have a lot of "on the other hand" things going on about this, and it's been the topic of discussion at my Lodge recently. What the general consensus came to is:

1) Anyone who chooses to serve their country should be allowed to do so and sexual preferences shouldn't determine their ability to do so. We're asking them to risk their lives so basing their service on who they sleep with just doesn't seem right.
2) Sexuality is strictly prohibited in the field in any case. I've dated enough Marines to have heard the stories of people getting caught and getting some pretty heavy handed punishment - in more than one case, dishonorable discharge. So I'm not certain how one's sexual preference would be a problem since activity is strictly prohibited.
3) There have always been gays in the military - "don't tell" has been in effect for a couple hundred years. It's only the "don't ask" portion that's new.
4) Nobody I've spoken to, both gay and straight, really sees what's wrong with "don't ask, don't tell". Expression of your sexuality is not supposed to be part of your job, whatever your job. I get the whole equality thing, and I'm in favor of gay marriage, but I don't see any reason to change this particular status quo, and have sexual preference being brought into the military workplace by having it become public knowledge..
5) High ranking military officers, at the point where they interact with the Executive branch, are really politicians themselves by their function. So I'm not certain they should be making the rule in this particular regard, nor should the general public. I believe this one should really be decided by the rank and file. They're the ones sharing the ships, the showers and when necessary, the trenches. It should be their choice, not a political one. If the majority feel it interferes with their ability to function at their best, then their decision should be the only one honored. (Yes, I know, no democracy in the military, but on something like this, they really should be making the choice.)

;Rani

[Arcane]

i don't see the big deal...

if you're gay. you're gay...so what?

[thatonethere]

Personally, I don't think it's anybodys business if a member of the military is gay or not. A war is not won based on whose sleeping with who. It all boils down to whether or not you can fight .

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285135808' post='482783']
Never having been in the military, it's a weird one for me, so take my opinion as more Middle America sort of angle. I have a lot of "on the other hand" things going on about this, and it's been the topic of discussion at my Lodge recently. What the general consensus came to is:

1) Anyone who chooses to serve their country should be allowed to do so and sexual preferences shouldn't determine their ability to do so. We're asking them to risk their lives so basing their service on who they sleep with just doesn't seem right.
2) Sexuality is strictly prohibited in the field in any case. I've dated enough Marines to have heard the stories of people getting caught and getting some pretty heavy handed punishment - in more than one case, dishonorable discharge. So I'm not certain how one's sexual preference would be a problem since activity is strictly prohibited.
3) There have always been gays in the military - "don't tell" has been in effect for a couple hundred years. It's only the "don't ask" portion that's new.
4) Nobody I've spoken to, both gay and straight, really sees what's wrong with "don't ask, don't tell". Expression of your sexuality is not supposed to be part of your job, whatever your job. I get the whole equality thing, and I'm in favor of gay marriage, but I don't see any reason to change this particular status quo, and have sexual preference being brought into the military workplace by having it become public knowledge..
5) High ranking military officers, at the point where they interact with the Executive branch, are really politicians themselves by their function. So I'm not certain they should be making the rule in this particular regard, nor should the general public. I believe this one should really be decided by the rank and file. They're the ones sharing the ships, the showers and when necessary, the trenches. It should be their choice, not a political one. If the majority feel it interferes with their ability to function at their best, then their decision should be the only one honored. (Yes, I know, no democracy in the military, but on something like this, they really should be making the choice.)

;Rani
[/quote]

I agree with everything you say,Rani. Anyone who wants to serve their nation should, why should we discriminate. Women blended in quite well without terrible problems. As far as sexuality in the field, thats going to be quite different. I know from talking to recent combat vets that a certain amount of inner service prostitution goes on. There have been incidents of sexual harrassment by superior officers, but all that is probably no different from activities in the public sector.
Yes,gays have been in the military since time began. Look at the Sacred Band of Thebes, a special ops unit composed of lovers, the original buddy system. Alexander had his lovers as did many of Greek army. Its been part of the Middle Eastern armies for years and recently an article highlighted trade in pretty boys among Afghan commanders. The fearsome samurai had older/younger teaching relationships that were at times sexual.

Yes, don't tell is fine, its no ones business anyway. Even in my day(60's) no one asked but if you got caught in the act it wasn't pretty. One of the last drumming out ceremonies took place when i was at Marine barracks, Norfolk, in 64. Pfc Roberts was caught by the firewatch performing fellatio.Interestingly enough, the fellatee remained unknown and unpunished. I very much for gay marriage and can't understand all the fuss.
So my liberal credentials hold up here, yet somewhere in the back of my mind, i can hear Sgt.Roach (one of my D.I.'s in PArris Island that made my 3 months there living hell, but made a Marine out of me) I can here him bellowing. " Fags in the Corps? Hell, they'll have you fuckin little maggots wearing camo panties and dress pinks" And I know how well that training sunk in. In Vietnam in the 60's no way.
I like your idea of the rank and file deciding. I also think privacy has come into being seomewhat in the military. I my day both showers and toilets were quite open. However, for a moment my mind drifts into combat. To the absolute trust,the comraderie, the intimacy shared by two men in hole big enough for a midget. Perhaps its like race. In Vietnam race relations were piss poor....in the rear. My FO team consisted of me,a half breed Native American, two black dudes from Alabama and a New York City boy we could barely understand. No one was going to throw racial epithets at any of us without a very big fight. The closeness of combat erased that stuff quickly. Would it do so with sexual prejudice?
Then there is the sometimes rather intense psuedo-homoerotic behavior of young men, amplified by the testosterone producing activities of communal nakedness,body centric culture and a whole lot of sexual talk and innuendo. It goes on still with straight men today, just look at some of the signatures of a couple of our members. Someone takes this personally and you got problems. Some one tries to hide their sexuality and you get people like Ted Haggard and this guy they just accused from an Atlanta megachurch, persecuting their brethren in order to hide.
I wonder how the troops today feel about it? In looking at this issue I am amazed how my mid 20th century prejudices have endured into the 21st.
Yet,in the Sacred Band of Thebes I see some hope for this issue. I leave you with a quote from Plato: "And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?"

[Chreees]

[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1285139319' post='482790']
i don't see the big deal...

if you're gay. you're gay...so what?
[/quote]

Word.

[RingsMaster]

heres what i think, if you would like to fight for your country and are in mental and physical shape to do so, why the hell shouldnt you be able to. they should be thankful for every person they get regardless of if they are gay or not. discrimination because of sexuality is not ok. honestly idc if the soldier protecting me is gay, straight, bi, lesbian or has sex with animals. they are protecting our country so that i dont have to and for that i thank them. this almost bothers me as much as when people boo the soldiers in the airport.

[mustafabey]

Ringsmaster said: " this almost bothers me as much as when people boo the soldiers in the airport."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
God does this happen today!? I recall lots of that kind of crap when I returned home from 2 tours in Vietnam. we were greeted by a barrage of rotten tomatoes, spit and cries of baby killer. One of the senior men on the flight called us to attention and we marched away with precision and pride. It was a beautiful thing

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285179339' post='482811']
Ringsmaster said: " this almost bothers me as much as when people boo the soldiers in the airport."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
God does this happen today!? I recall lots of that kind of crap when I returned home from 2 tours in Vietnam. we were greeted by a barrage of rotten tomatoes, spit and cries of baby killer. One of the senior men on the flight called us to attention and we marched away with precision and pride. It was a beautiful thing
[/quote]

I'm not terribly willing to jump into public feuds because i tend to think you end up with mob mentality and everything escalates. But this? I would not be able to stand for this. I'd be the one being hauled off to jail for socking some idiot disrespecting our military.

I will say this: A couple years ago a friend of mine stopped off in LA after his tour to see his family for a couple days before heading home. He was seeing his children at the Chicago airport for the first time in almost 3 years. He asked for and got special permission to wear his dress blues because of some special circumstances involved. I dropped him off at the airport for his final leg home to Chicago. As we pulled up in front of the terminal, we jumped out and opened the trunk to pull out his bags. I looked up and we had, I swear at least a dozen people offering to help. They dropped their own bags to carry his for him.

I'm a sentimental sap anyway, but I was really misting all over the place when I drove away. It was just such a reflection of people who still care and acknowledge.

''Rani

[Josh The Poet]

I personally have no problem with homosexuals in the military, but think of who is serving (now this is just going off of an assumption) but most of the people serving are going to be straight, white, more conservative men who are going to probably feel uncomfortable with gays around them. Also, I really don't see them taking orders from a gay officer. (it's actually kind of funny thinking about it)

[RingsMaster]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285180125' post='482813']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285179339' post='482811']
Ringsmaster said: " this almost bothers me as much as when people boo the soldiers in the airport."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
God does this happen today!? I recall lots of that kind of crap when I returned home from 2 tours in Vietnam. we were greeted by a barrage of rotten tomatoes, spit and cries of baby killer. One of the senior men on the flight called us to attention and we marched away with precision and pride. It was a beautiful thing
[/quote]

I'm not terribly willing to jump into public feuds because i tend to think you end up with mob mentality and everything escalates. But this? I would not be able to stand for this. I'd be the one being hauled off to jail for socking some idiot disrespecting our military.

I will say this: A couple years ago a friend of mine stopped off in LA after his tour to see his family for a couple days before heading home. He was seeing his children at the Chicago airport for the first time in almost 3 years. He asked for and got special permission to wear his dress blues because of some special circumstances involved. I dropped him off at the airport for his final leg home to Chicago. As we pulled up in front of the terminal, we jumped out and opened the trunk to pull out his bags. I looked up and we had, I swear at least a dozen people offering to help. They dropped their own bags to carry his for him.

I'm a sentimental sap anyway, but I was really misting all over the place when I drove away. It was just such a reflection of people who still care and acknowledge.

''Rani
[/quote]

unvortunatly this still does happen today, i was picking my dad up from DFW airport about 2 years ago, he used to fly international quite a bit so i was always witnessing this, when the soldiers came through the gates and began to see there families, people protested them, one even went as far as to hit a soldier with a sign. i can proudly say i will not do this and almost slugged some guy but a family member of the soldier did first. its disgusting, but the best part is the cops were right there and said they didnt see a thing, just goes to show, even if you dont agree with the war you never disrespect the people who fight to protect you.

[mustafabey]

Sometimes the troops need volunteers to clear minefields, these people would do that job quite well I believe.

[RingsMaster]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285357646' post='483051']
Sometimes the troops need volunteers to clear minefields, these people would do that job quite well I believe.
[/quote]

i agree, people like this in my opinion should have to serve a month tour, just to get a taste of what the troops do, i have no intentions of serving unless absolutely needed because i honestly dont think i would be mentally up to it, its a choice and people have to remember that.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='RingsMaster' timestamp='1285370840' post='483061']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285357646' post='483051']
Sometimes the troops need volunteers to clear minefields, these people would do that job quite well I believe.
[/quote]

i agree, people like this in my opinion should have to serve a month tour, just to get a taste of what the troops do, i have no intentions of serving unless absolutely needed because i honestly dont think i would be mentally up to it, its a choice and people have to remember that.
[/quote]
I remember some shit that went on back in the Nam that always bothered me a bit. Not alot mind you but a skosh, as we used to say. In combat you had to rely and trust your brother Marines. We spent alot of time humping the hills looking for Charlie. Booby traps, snipers,ambushes and lots of discipline.Just like anywhere else you got your occasional shitbird. Maybe not your average shitbird but one that was so lame they'd get somebody killed. It didn't take long for us to make this assumption,maybe one fuck up is all you got. So what did we do to Joe Shitbird, we put him point. Point means you go first......booby traps,snipers ambush you go first> Now there were points, professional points, guys that smell shit miles away, No surprise ever got by these guys. But you put Joe Shitbird in that position and it might have well been a death sentence.Thats combat, morality changes and sometimes, rarely more than frequently, assholes died cause they were assholes.

[Rani]

This morning I was thinking that I'm certain that it's going to be one of those things that will work itself out on it's own. I mean, we all have opinions on things but those opinions rarely come from personal involvement. Some things we shouldn't get worked up about because the parties involved will figure it out on their own, usually without our input, and over time things change. They have to. It's the nature, of well, everything. And then I came across this Yahoo news brief:

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_gays_in_military"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_gays_in_military[/url]

Kinda looks like it's going to work itself out.........

'Rani

[RingsMaster]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285376754' post='483068']
[quote name='RingsMaster' timestamp='1285370840' post='483061']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285357646' post='483051']
Sometimes the troops need volunteers to clear minefields, these people would do that job quite well I believe.
[/quote]

i agree, people like this in my opinion should have to serve a month tour, just to get a taste of what the troops do, i have no intentions of serving unless absolutely needed because i honestly dont think i would be mentally up to it, its a choice and people have to remember that.
[/quote]
I remember some shit that went on back in the Nam that always bothered me a bit. Not alot mind you but a skosh, as we used to say. In combat you had to rely and trust your brother Marines. We spent alot of time humping the hills looking for Charlie. Booby traps, snipers,ambushes and lots of discipline.Just like anywhere else you got your occasional shitbird. Maybe not your average shitbird but one that was so lame they'd get somebody killed. It didn't take long for us to make this assumption,maybe one fuck up is all you got. So what did we do to Joe Shitbird, we put him point. Point means you go first......booby traps,snipers ambush you go first> Now there were points, professional points, guys that smell shit miles away, No surprise ever got by these guys. But you put Joe Shitbird in that position and it might have well been a death sentence.Thats combat, morality changes and sometimes, rarely more than frequently, assholes died cause they were assholes.
[/quote]

id like to thatnk you for serving btw and i understand putting these kinds of people up front would be a terrible idea as they will most likely kill themselves and others it was just a small rant lol.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285134428' post='482781']
Lady Gaga made the news recently by getting involved in the gays in the military debate. Of course, Congress put off the vote, probably till after the election. I consider myself fairly liberal, especially concerning social issues. I am also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and the Vietnam conflict. My military was straight, circa 1965 and if you were found to be gay you were forced out of the service. I saw a few guys literally disappear during my enlistments. Today things are different, I reckon and maybe gays want to serve our country' The general being considered for the next commandant of the Marine Corps said his peace about the issue. He has reservations and doesn't think, given the special nature of the Marine Corps that it would work. I have to stand with Gen. Amos on this issue. I find it hard to accept gays in the Marines. This maybe latent homophobia working or some good old Marine Corps brainwashing still in my mind. I'm not particularly homophobic. I've had gay friends and co workers and never had a problem with that. I just see it as disruptive in the military. Am i being old fashioned, prejudiced or too rigid. I'd like to hear what you'all think regarding this matter.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement.

Gays will, and do destroy esprit de corps. Their presence weakens the comradeship of a unit. The average early adult male is uncomfortable around them in a combat situation. There is a reluctance to count on them, and heterosexual males do not believe they will provide sufficient support to others in the unit.

Gays openly serving are, and will always be an offense to some cultures. They will make US units a target of some radical religious sects. Let me guess, Rani thinks we should jail the freak that wants to burn Korans because it is offensive to Muslims, and will make US soldiers targets... but thinks those same soldiers would be fine as targets if it's a result of an openly gay member of that unit offending the locals in a culture where homosexuality is a crime. How can you expect a soldier to suppress any display of their religion, to eat a diet free of pork, and others to avoid any references to alcoholic beverages, to remove any photos of their loved ones in which a female is depicted in with no covering over their shoulders/arms/hair. Even worse, to remove any photos of the family dog from their personal belongings, all because it offends the enemy, or host nation, then in the same breath tell me we need openly gay soldiers-which will offend them far more than the previous affronts. That is epically silly, and demonstrates a lack of thorough thought behind your opinion.

the thought of even one soldier getting killed because we need to coddle a special interest group more worried about their sexual display, then the good of the others in a unit makes me sick.

[Tyler]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1285561301' post='483236']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285134428' post='482781']
Lady Gaga made the news recently by getting involved in the gays in the military debate. Of course, Congress put off the vote, probably till after the election. I consider myself fairly liberal, especially concerning social issues. I am also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and the Vietnam conflict. My military was straight, circa 1965 and if you were found to be gay you were forced out of the service. I saw a few guys literally disappear during my enlistments. Today things are different, I reckon and maybe gays want to serve our country' The general being considered for the next commandant of the Marine Corps said his peace about the issue. He has reservations and doesn't think, given the special nature of the Marine Corps that it would work. I have to stand with Gen. Amos on this issue. I find it hard to accept gays in the Marines. This maybe latent homophobia working or some good old Marine Corps brainwashing still in my mind. I'm not particularly homophobic. I've had gay friends and co workers and never had a problem with that. I just see it as disruptive in the military. Am i being old fashioned, prejudiced or too rigid. I'd like to hear what you'all think regarding this matter.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement.

Gays will, and do destroy esprit de corps. Their presence weakens the comradeship of a unit. The average early adult male is uncomfortable around them in a combat situation. There is a reluctance to count on them, and heterosexual males do not believe they will provide sufficient support to others in the unit.

Gays openly serving are, and will always be an offense to some cultures. They will make US units a target of some radical religious sects. Let me guess, Rani thinks we should jail the freak that wants to burn Korans because it is offensive to Muslims, and will make US soldiers targets... but thinks those same soldiers would be fine as targets if it's a result of an openly gay member of that unit offending the locals in a culture where homosexuality is a crime. How can you expect a soldier to suppress any display of their religion, to eat a diet free of pork, and others to avoid any references to alcoholic beverages, to remove any photos of their loved ones in which a female is depicted in with no covering over their shoulders/arms/hair. Even worse, to remove any photos of the family dog from their personal belongings, all because it offends the enemy, or host nation, then in the same breath tell me we need openly gay soldiers-which will offend them far more than the previous affronts. That is epically silly, and demonstrates a lack of thorough thought behind your opinion.

the thought of even one soldier getting killed because we need to coddle a special interest group more worried about their sexual display, then the good of the others in a unit makes me sick.
[/quote]

No. Gays do not destroy the spirit of the corps, it's the assholes who are homophobic that destroy it. Just because a man is gay does not mean he wants to have sex with you -- or any other man in his corps. The heterosexual males need to get over their issues with homosexuality, they're the problem not the gays. Homosexuality is also not offensive to Islam nor any other major military company. All major religions would be able to adapt to a military life style, because they knew what they were getting in to when they signed up. Radicals in any religion wouldn't join the armed forces, any branch, if they truly followed their religious traditions. Religion is not a buffet, you can't pick and choose which rules you follow; the only exception is a logical systematics approach to disregarding outdated laws or proper interpretation of the religious texts.

[Rani]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1285562454' post='483238']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1285561301' post='483236']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285134428' post='482781']
Lady Gaga made the news recently by getting involved in the gays in the military debate. Of course, Congress put off the vote, probably till after the election. I consider myself fairly liberal, especially concerning social issues. I am also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and the Vietnam conflict. My military was straight, circa 1965 and if you were found to be gay you were forced out of the service. I saw a few guys literally disappear during my enlistments. Today things are different, I reckon and maybe gays want to serve our country' The general being considered for the next commandant of the Marine Corps said his peace about the issue. He has reservations and doesn't think, given the special nature of the Marine Corps that it would work. I have to stand with Gen. Amos on this issue. I find it hard to accept gays in the Marines. This maybe latent homophobia working or some good old Marine Corps brainwashing still in my mind. I'm not particularly homophobic. I've had gay friends and co workers and never had a problem with that. I just see it as disruptive in the military. Am i being old fashioned, prejudiced or too rigid. I'd like to hear what you'all think regarding this matter.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement.

Gays will, and do destroy esprit de corps. Their presence weakens the comradeship of a unit. The average early adult male is uncomfortable around them in a combat situation. There is a reluctance to count on them, and heterosexual males do not believe they will provide sufficient support to others in the unit.

Gays openly serving are, and will always be an offense to some cultures. They will make US units a target of some radical religious sects. Let me guess, Rani thinks we should jail the freak that wants to burn Korans because it is offensive to Muslims, and will make US soldiers targets... but thinks those same soldiers would be fine as targets if it's a result of an openly gay member of that unit offending the locals in a culture where homosexuality is a crime. How can you expect a soldier to suppress any display of their religion, to eat a diet free of pork, and others to avoid any references to alcoholic beverages, to remove any photos of their loved ones in which a female is depicted in with no covering over their shoulders/arms/hair. Even worse, to remove any photos of the family dog from their personal belongings, all because it offends the enemy, or host nation, then in the same breath tell me we need openly gay soldiers-which will offend them far more than the previous affronts. That is epically silly, and demonstrates a lack of thorough thought behind your opinion.

the thought of even one soldier getting killed because we need to coddle a special interest group more worried about their sexual display, then the good of the others in a unit makes me sick.
[/quote]

No. Gays do not destroy the spirit of the corps, it's the assholes who are homophobic that destroy it. Just because a man is gay does not mean he wants to have sex with you -- or any other man in his corps. The heterosexual males need to get over their issues with homosexuality, they're the problem not the gays. Homosexuality is also not offensive to Islam nor any other major military company. All major religions would be able to adapt to a military life style, because they knew what they were getting in to when they signed up. Radicals in any religion wouldn't join the armed forces, any branch, if they truly followed their religious traditions. Religion is not a buffet, you can't pick and choose which rules you follow; the only exception is a logical systematics approach to disregarding outdated laws or proper interpretation of the religious texts.
[/quote]

On my local news radio, there was a discussion of whether or not the rank and file really give a damn. They couldn't interview troops in the field easily, so they did what they considered to be a reasonable sampling of troops staying put in one place - every VA hospital in the country. According to the news report, overwhelmingly, they didn't much give a damn who the guy covering their back was sleeping with, so long as he was covering their backs.

Scotsman, I've said since the very beginning rank and file should be making this decision. The still must be up and running because you've stopped reading before ranting.

'Rani

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[RingsMaster]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285569994' post='483251']
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1285562454' post='483238']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1285561301' post='483236']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285134428' post='482781']
Lady Gaga made the news recently by getting involved in the gays in the military debate. Of course, Congress put off the vote, probably till after the election. I consider myself fairly liberal, especially concerning social issues. I am also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and the Vietnam conflict. My military was straight, circa 1965 and if you were found to be gay you were forced out of the service. I saw a few guys literally disappear during my enlistments. Today things are different, I reckon and maybe gays want to serve our country' The general being considered for the next commandant of the Marine Corps said his peace about the issue. He has reservations and doesn't think, given the special nature of the Marine Corps that it would work. I have to stand with Gen. Amos on this issue. I find it hard to accept gays in the Marines. This maybe latent homophobia working or some good old Marine Corps brainwashing still in my mind. I'm not particularly homophobic. I've had gay friends and co workers and never had a problem with that. I just see it as disruptive in the military. Am i being old fashioned, prejudiced or too rigid. I'd like to hear what you'all think regarding this matter.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement.

Gays will, and do destroy esprit de corps. Their presence weakens the comradeship of a unit. The average early adult male is uncomfortable around them in a combat situation. There is a reluctance to count on them, and heterosexual males do not believe they will provide sufficient support to others in the unit.

Gays openly serving are, and will always be an offense to some cultures. They will make US units a target of some radical religious sects. Let me guess, Rani thinks we should jail the freak that wants to burn Korans because it is offensive to Muslims, and will make US soldiers targets... but thinks those same soldiers would be fine as targets if it's a result of an openly gay member of that unit offending the locals in a culture where homosexuality is a crime. How can you expect a soldier to suppress any display of their religion, to eat a diet free of pork, and others to avoid any references to alcoholic beverages, to remove any photos of their loved ones in which a female is depicted in with no covering over their shoulders/arms/hair. Even worse, to remove any photos of the family dog from their personal belongings, all because it offends the enemy, or host nation, then in the same breath tell me we need openly gay soldiers-which will offend them far more than the previous affronts. That is epically silly, and demonstrates a lack of thorough thought behind your opinion.

the thought of even one soldier getting killed because we need to coddle a special interest group more worried about their sexual display, then the good of the others in a unit makes me sick.
[/quote]

No. Gays do not destroy the spirit of the corps, it's the assholes who are homophobic that destroy it. Just because a man is gay does not mean he wants to have sex with you -- or any other man in his corps. The heterosexual males need to get over their issues with homosexuality, they're the problem not the gays. Homosexuality is also not offensive to Islam nor any other major military company. All major religions would be able to adapt to a military life style, because they knew what they were getting in to when they signed up. Radicals in any religion wouldn't join the armed forces, any branch, if they truly followed their religious traditions. Religion is not a buffet, you can't pick and choose which rules you follow; the only exception is a logical systematics approach to disregarding outdated laws or proper interpretation of the religious texts.
[/quote]

On my local news radio, there was a discussion of whether or not the rank and file really give a damn. They couldn't interview troops in the field easily, so they did what they considered to be a reasonable sampling of troops staying put in one place - every VA hospital in the country. [size="4"][b]According to the news report, overwhelmingly, they didn't much give a damn who the guy covering their back was sleeping with, so long as he was covering their backs.[/b][/size]

Scotsman, I've said since the very beginning rank and file should be making this decision. The still must be up and running because you've stopped reading before ranting.

'Rani
[/quote]
this is what i was thinking exactly. as long as whomever has got your back who cares who they have relations with, honestly i think if i were in a situation where i was a soldier i wouldnt care who had my back as long as they did. there are plenty of straight soldiers who have messed up big time and let their guys down, so why does it matter if they are gay or not.

[SneakyPete]

Isn't this the same issue from years ago? Only times a paradigms have changed. In Canada it was Natives and in the States it was blacks. Now it is Homosexuals. In the end, it is about defending our countries right? Not who you go to bed with.

[mustafabey]

interesting that this resurfaced. I just began watching a made for TV documentary called Carrier. A video crew spent 6 months on the USS Nimitz in the Arabian Gulf. The topic came up and yes it was going on. people had relationships, fights etc. I guess you can't hide shit on an aircraft carrier. But,harkening back to what Rani had said about letting the troops decide... it seems that that they already had.It didn't seem to present a problem to any of the sailors on the boat.

[Genie]

I have to say how it warms my heart to see this being discussed intelligently and with a minimum of intolerance. When this discussion starts up just about anywhere else it usually gets pretty ugly pretty fast and no one gets anywhere because everybody gets mad.

Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with gays in the military. I'm as grateful for all our service men and women no matter their sexuality, they're religion, or their race. It's just weird to me that if you aren't white, Republican, and straight (or at least 2 out of the 3) in this country, then you are suddenly part of a minority or part of a special interest group. Sexuality is simply not black and white, there isn't just gay or straight. There is a whole range of sexuality in between. If America ever got over it's homophobia and ALL the LGBT's felt safe 'coming out,' people would be in for a HUGE surprise. The 'totally straights' might suddenly discover they're a rarer breed than society had led them to believe.

[Genie]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1286835890' post='484703']
interesting that this resurfaced. I just began watching a made for TV documentary called Carrier. A video crew spent 6 months on the USS Nimitz in the Arabian Gulf. The topic came up and yes it was going on. people had relationships, fights etc. I guess you can't hide shit on an aircraft carrier. But,harkening back to what Rani had said about letting the troops decide... it seems that that they already had.It didn't seem to present a problem to any of the sailors on the boat.
[/quote]

I really really like that show. I keep missing it, you remind me that I need to see if it's on Netflix.

Yup, if a bunch of sailors stuck on a boat can find a way to work with the homosexuals among them, then that about says it.