Don'T Ask,Don'T Tell

[Rani]

Well, well, well..........

[url="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-mew-dont-ask-20101012,0,3326093.story?track=rss"]http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-mew-dont-ask-20101012,0,3326093.story?track=rss[/url]

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Genie' timestamp='1286851912' post='484746']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1286835890' post='484703']
interesting that this resurfaced. I just began watching a made for TV documentary called Carrier. A video crew spent 6 months on the USS Nimitz in the Arabian Gulf. The topic came up and yes it was going on. people had relationships, fights etc. I guess you can't hide shit on an aircraft carrier. But,harkening back to what Rani had said about letting the troops decide... it seems that that they already had.It didn't seem to present a problem to any of the sailors on the boat.
[/quote]

I really really like that show. I keep missing it, you remind me that I need to see if it's on Netflix.

Yup, if a bunch of sailors stuck on a boat can find a way to work with the homosexuals among them, then that about says it.
[/quote]

Yup, Netflix is where I got it

[Tyler]

They just issued a statement saying to stop all cases that fall under Don't Ask Don't Tell, it is officially abolished.

[mushrat]

a friend of mine was talking about this a while back. the woman he was talking to had one concern, showers.
she was saying that it would make the heterosexual men in the shower uncomfortable to have gay men in there with them. my friend said then we can have the gay men shower with the women. They aren't attracted to the women so the women wouldn't be uncomfortable, and the gay men wouldn't harrass the women because they weren't interested in them. The woman was stopped cold.

glad to hear its dead.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='mushrat' timestamp='1286918461' post='484840']
a friend of mine was talking about this a while back. the woman he was talking to had one concern, showers.
she was saying that it would make the heterosexual men in the shower uncomfortable to have gay men in there with them. my friend said then we can have the gay men shower with the women. They aren't attracted to the women so the women wouldn't be uncomfortable, and the gay men wouldn't harrass the women because they weren't interested in them. The woman was stopped cold.

glad to hear its dead.
[/quote]

The military i was is long gone, and I suppose things are different. I imagine ,that except for field situations, they have shower stalls and partitions between the commodes. I didn't get any privacy until I made E-4 and then it was just a cubicle with another junior NCO

[Allstar]

I have 8 years in so far. I an in the Navy. I have had the pleasure of being deployed on a ship and I have pounded the ground in the middle east. I personally don't have an issue with gays in the military. I can tell you what is the most common compliant though. This is one scenario that has been commonly argued. What happens when you are on a ship or forward deployed or even bootcamp, and you are in line waiting for the shower or even worse open bay showers (groups showers common to a pool locker room). You openly know that one of your battle buddies is gay and you catch him starring at you. The minute you become uncomfortable with this two things will happen 1. It will affect the work enviroment between you and him, all of you and him depending who you tell 2. Since you felt uncomfortable this is now means you were a victim of sexual harrassment. Now what happens, well the gay personnel will end up with a non-judical punishment and a dishonorable discharge.

Now here is what most people don't know, with the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy you do exactly what it states. If people find out through other means that you are gay, YOU CAN'T BE THROWN OUT OF THE MILITARY. I SAY AGAIN CAN'T. I have stood the disciplinary board for this quite a few times, they can offer you to get out or if you feel in danger because of your orientation you can request transfer to a new unit, and they can not share that information with the future unit. I have seen some people coming out go very wrong for them, I have seen it work very smoothly.

In my spare time I do a lot of ballroom dancing, needless to say I have a lot of friends that are gay. Ultimately for the military I feel the current policy is the safest for all people involved. I don't really care either way. I just want what will work best of all personnel.

[mustafabey]

Glad to see these mellowing out a bit. Back in the 60's, gay was so far in the closet, it was rarely encountered. The problem then was racial. The military echoed the nation at that time. People tended to hang out with their own, at least the lower ranks. Being an NCO changed things a bit and you didn't hang out with E-3 and below. But the racial thing mellowed out for those of us that saw combat. In combat abrotherhood is formed that supercedes any civilian bullshit. When we went back to the rear and began to hear all that racial crap, fingers began to caress triggers and blades and rear echelon racists learned quite quickly to leave us guys alone. I suppose that, had I a gay guy on my team, I would have defended him equally. If frigging politicians and super Christians quit flogging this thing and keeping out of the media it would dissolve and pretty much go away.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287354136' post='485359']
Glad to see these mellowing out a bit. Back in the 60's, gay was so far in the closet, it was rarely encountered. The problem then was racial. The military echoed the nation at that time. People tended to hang out with their own, at least the lower ranks. Being an NCO changed things a bit and you didn't hang out with E-3 and below. But the racial thing mellowed out for those of us that saw combat. In combat abrotherhood is formed that supercedes any civilian bullshit. When we went back to the rear and began to hear all that racial crap, fingers began to caress triggers and blades and rear echelon racists learned quite quickly to leave us guys alone. I suppose that, had I a gay guy on my team, I would have defended him equally. [color="#4B0082"][b][size=4]If frigging politicians and super Christians quit flogging this thing and keeping out of the media it would dissolve and pretty much go away.[/size][/b][/color]
[/quote]

[color="#4B0082"][b]There it is.......... The problem is that church leaders and politicians have a vested interest in keeping the flack going. In brings them money - money to church coffers and to buy votes all of which are based on homophobic fears. Why does it seem necessary from human being to be constantly so afraid of everything? As long as we are, there will always be those that use that fear to their own advantage.[/b][/color]
[color="#4B0082"][b]
[/b][/color]
[color="#4B0082"][b]'Rani[/b][/color]

[TheyCallMeDave]

Personally, being a bisexual, I can't see why anyone would want to express homosexuality while in the military. I'm certainly not ashamed of an interest in men, but I'm not flaunting it around, either. I think what the gay community forgets, is that it isn't the gay lifestyle people don't accept, it's the "fabulous" attitude certain gay people feel the need to portray. Not to mention just the constant reminder of the situation.

Not that I think homosexuals should suppress their individuality, but open expression of your orientation certainly isn't part of a soldier's job description. Coming from a gay man, I don't feel supressed not being able to "express mysself" in a military enviornment. It's just one thing that doesn't involve my military life, from my personal life.

[mustafabey]

TheyCallMeDave said:Not that I think homosexuals should suppress their individuality, but open expression of your orientation certainly isn't part of a soldier's job description.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I suppose in Alexander's Companion Cavalry or the Theban Sacred Band that would have been different. Expression of homosexual orientation today seems to be wrapped in the "flaming faggot" bouffant hairdresser type complete with mincing steps and beribboned toy poodle. Is that an expression of homosexuality or a cultural expression? Did fierce Spartan hoplites have the need to parody women? I doubt it. Homosexuality developed differently here, perhaps because of lack of tolerance. I hear Afghan warlords are still passing around boys.

[Genie]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287503336' post='485573'] Homosexuality developed differently here, perhaps because of lack of tolerance. I hear Afghan warlords are still passing around boys.
[/quote]

I hate seeing any link between homosexuality and pedophilia, they aren't the same thing. Don't know that you were trying to imply that they were, but my hackles automatically rise when I see even a hint of homosexuality being linked to pedophilia.

[Allstar]

That is touching on culture. I think this conversation needs to stay on track with American's that are gay in the military. Being in different cultures opens a whole different can of worms.

[Venger]

i was trying to think of a way of saying something without coming off as a raging homophobe then Theycallmedave hit my point right on the head. What or who you do in your home or bed is no ones business but your own. That being said the don't ask,don't tell should apply to all military personal. being openly anything should not be part of the job. I had a friend who met her current husband while on a tour during desert storm. when they got caught "messing around" they were both disciplined. They were openly being hetero and took the same heat had it been homo (well maybe not the same but still) keep who you are attracted to to yourself. Would you really want to see me and my wife heavy petting in your local mall.(me either)
Ray

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Genie' timestamp='1287504215' post='485578']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287503336' post='485573'] Homosexuality developed differently here, perhaps because of lack of tolerance. I hear Afghan warlords are still passing around boys.
[/quote]

I hate seeing any link between homosexuality and pedophilia, they aren't the same thing. Don't know that you were trying to imply that they were, but my hackles automatically rise when I see even a hint of homosexuality being linked to pedophilia.
[/quote]

You are 100% correct, sir and i apologize for the remark. It shows how deep these associations lie within us. Ignorance and unsensitivity. Sure, I realize(after being told) how that association is prejudicial. We certainly don't go an associate child molesters with straight people,so why should we make that point regarding gays? Why, because its one of those little hate lies we get repeated in our ears. Just like myths about Blacks and Jews, Indians and Mexicans get told over and over til they worm their way into the recesses of our minds. Again, my apology, Genie:facepalm:

[Genie]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287537078' post='485615']
You are 100% correct, sir and i apologize for the remark. It shows how deep these associations lie within us. Ignorance and unsensitivity. Sure, I realize(after being told) how that association is prejudicial. We certainly don't go an associate child molesters with straight people,so why should we make that point regarding gays? Why, because its one of those little hate lies we get repeated in our ears. Just like myths about Blacks and Jews, Indians and Mexicans get told over and over til they worm their way into the recesses of our minds. Again, my apology, Genie:facepalm:
[/quote]

Peace. And gratitude. Well said.

[TheyCallMeDave]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287503336' post='485573']
TheyCallMeDave said:Not that I think homosexuals should suppress their individuality, but open expression of your orientation certainly isn't part of a soldier's job description.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I suppose in Alexander's Companion Cavalry or the Theban Sacred Band that would have been different. Expression of homosexual orientation today seems to be wrapped in the "flaming faggot" bouffant hairdresser type complete with mincing steps and beribboned toy poodle. Is that an expression of homosexuality or a cultural expression? Did fierce Spartan hoplites have the need to parody women? I doubt it. Homosexuality developed differently here, perhaps because of lack of tolerance. I hear Afghan warlords are still passing around boys.
[/quote]

I suppose that I don't nessecarily mean the pride parade attitude as I came across before, but more of the fact that it doesn't have to be aknowledged. It's one of those things. Because the debate for gay rights in every aspect of American culture is raging on, if one aspect puts a priority above gay rights, such as don't ask don't tell, gay citizens feel the need to begin waving banners and throwing up riots on television.

Had the military told everyone that a don't ask don't tell poicly was in place on the pets you had, that speaking or asking of fido your jack russell terrior back at home would get you a dishonorable discharge, no one would care. They might find it silly, but hey, it's just a part of your personal life they don't want to know about. Big deal.

There is no pride in being gay. There is pride in sticking up for yourself, others like you, and doing whats right when the gay community is mistreated. Coming from a gay man, the homosexual population just needs to stop, think for a minute, and pack up their banners. Just because something isn't PRO GAY, doesn't mean it is ANTI GAY. I promise you PETA would not be raging war on America had the "DADT" policy on your pets be taken into effect.

[Venger]

[quote name='TheyCallMeDave' timestamp='1287542014' post='485624']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287503336' post='485573']
TheyCallMeDave said:Not that I think homosexuals should suppress their individuality, but open expression of your orientation certainly isn't part of a soldier's job description.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I suppose in Alexander's Companion Cavalry or the Theban Sacred Band that would have been different. Expression of homosexual orientation today seems to be wrapped in the "flaming faggot" bouffant hairdresser type complete with mincing steps and beribboned toy poodle. Is that an expression of homosexuality or a cultural expression? Did fierce Spartan hoplites have the need to parody women? I doubt it. Homosexuality developed differently here, perhaps because of lack of tolerance. I hear Afghan warlords are still passing around boys.
[/quote]

I suppose that I don't nessecarily mean the pride parade attitude as I came across before, but more of the fact that it doesn't have to be aknowledged. It's one of those things. Because the debate for gay rights in every aspect of American culture is raging on, if one aspect puts a priority above gay rights, such as don't ask don't tell, gay citizens feel the need to begin waving banners and throwing up riots on television.

Had the military told everyone that a don't ask don't tell poicly was in place on the pets you had, that speaking or asking of fido your jack russell terrior back at home would get you a dishonorable discharge, no one would care. They might find it silly, but hey, it's just a part of your personal life they don't want to know about. Big deal.

There is no pride in being gay. There is pride in sticking up for yourself, others like you, and doing whats right when the gay community is mistreated. Coming from a gay man, the homosexual population just needs to stop, think for a minute, and pack up their banners. Just because something isn't PRO GAY, doesn't mean it is ANTI GAY. I promise you PETA would not be raging war on America had the "DADT" policy on your pets be taken into effect.
[/quote]
Again, yeah what he said.!
Ray

[mustafabey]

This just in: The Obama administration has just asked for an emergency stay of the ruling ending don't ask don't tell. David Axelrod(The Karl Rove of this outfit) has said ;"This president has made a commitment, and it's not a question of whether that program, whether that policy will change, but when."
Huh? We wanna change it but we don't gee didn't they say that about Gitmo too? In the campaigns you got the idea this stuff was right on the front burner, but it sure isn't. Cindy Sheehan(the Bush era war demonstrator) says the FBI and other police state heavies are harrassing the war protesters with early morning raids and searches(won't see that on American news). Did we have an election two years ago or is Bush still in power with an Obama mask on.
I was a great supporter of Obama, believed in his vision and now I am beginning to feel he is the biggest traitor to America since Benedict Arnold. There i said it

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287613067' post='485723']
This just in: The Obama administration has just asked for an emergency stay of the ruling ending don't ask don't tell. David Axelrod(The Karl Rove of this outfit) has said ;"This president has made a commitment, and it's not a question of whether that program, whether that policy will change, but when."
Huh? We wanna change it but we don't gee didn't they say that about Gitmo too? In the campaigns you got the idea this stuff was right on the front burner, but it sure isn't. Cindy Sheehan(the Bush era war demonstrator) says the FBI and other police state heavies are harrassing the war protesters with early morning raids and searches(won't see that on American news). Did we have an election two years ago or is Bush still in power with an Obama mask on.
I was a great supporter of Obama, believed in his vision and now I am beginning to feel he is the biggest traitor to America since Benedict Arnold. There i said it
[/quote]

I don't think he's a traitor, but I do think he needs to grow a pair. A big, brass pair. The whole thoughtful, deliberate, walking softly, but doing what he believes will help us long term is fine and dandy, but don't aspire to the warrior's job if you're not willing to wage war. Quiet, humble sainthood is fine so long as you're sitting on your ass in a cave high in the Kush. Leaders of the free world need to have a pair. A historic presidency, and sometimes it seems like he didn't know it was going to be difficult.

I kinda get why he wants Congress to deal with it, because the legal experts I hear from say that's the only way it can be truly dead and gone. Anything else keeps it a live and deadly debate. So shit, don't challenge the ruling - use it as ammo in the fight with Congress over it. Oh wait..... That would be growing a pair wouldn't it?

'Rani

[Venger]

this is an election year. The homosexual community for as loud as they are is not very big. If you want to keep your seat you will kiss middle America's ass and keep your head down on hot topics like DADT. I think if congress stays mostly liberal they will really up the anti on stuff like this.
Ray

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1287616250' post='485732']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1287613067' post='485723']
This just in: The Obama administration has just asked for an emergency stay of the ruling ending don't ask don't tell. David Axelrod(The Karl Rove of this outfit) has said ;"This president has made a commitment, and it's not a question of whether that program, whether that policy will change, but when."
Huh? We wanna change it but we don't gee didn't they say that about Gitmo too? In the campaigns you got the idea this stuff was right on the front burner, but it sure isn't. Cindy Sheehan(the Bush era war demonstrator) says the FBI and other police state heavies are harrassing the war protesters with early morning raids and searches(won't see that on American news). Did we have an election two years ago or is Bush still in power with an Obama mask on.
I was a great supporter of Obama, believed in his vision and now I am beginning to feel he is the biggest traitor to America since Benedict Arnold. There i said it
[/quote]

I don't think he's a traitor, but I do think he needs to grow a pair. A big, brass pair. The whole thoughtful, deliberate, walking softly, but doing what he believes will help us long term is fine and dandy, but don't aspire to the warrior's job if you're not willing to wage war. Quiet, humble sainthood is fine so long as you're sitting on your ass in a cave high in the Kush. Leaders of the free world need to have a pair. A historic presidency, and sometimes it seems like he didn't know it was going to be difficult.

I kinda get why he wants Congress to deal with it, because the legal experts I hear from say that's the only way it can be truly dead and gone. Anything else keeps it a live and deadly debate. So shit, don't challenge the ruling - use it as ammo in the fight with Congress over it. Oh wait..... That would be growing a pair wouldn't it?

'Rani
[/quote]


Either that,Rani or he's just another front man, a creation of the PR men and media experts and like "W" doesn't really see the detail, delegates,trusts,bends, sways and is little more than a puppet. I'm afraid we've been had again. The very fact that the powers of money and arms trade have to orchestrate the elections means that the system still can work if people can see thru the bullshit. They have the power to use it, but that requires thinking.

[TheScotsman]

The USA needs to turn it's military into a social-justice project.

Ya, that's it! Maybe like the Dutch military! You know, the ones that got their asses handed to them by a vastly INFERIOR force at Serbinca. Where a NATO general with much more experience in military theory, command, and tactics than any of us here, blamed the lack of discipline, and generally poor state among the gay dutch soldiers for the defeat that left them tied (most naked) to the light posts, while 5,000 Muslims were singled out, walked into the woods, and executed, kicking off the whole serbo-croation conflict . Sure, that's what we need! A military whose very presents promotes disgust among the fighters of potential enemy forces. It's a Military force, their job is not to be some social project, but to be an effective fighting force.


I can see the terrorist propaganda now...
starts with some motivating religious chanting, processed with WAY too much reverb. then scenes of openly gay soldiers acting... well... gay. Then a religious fundamentalist comes on and says to kill Americans for their bringing the unclean-infidel-man-lovers onto holy soil.
Sure, why not give the Islamic world yet another reason to hate us. Makes a load of sense to me, why didn't I think of that?

Tanks don't come in pink (Although the UK tried some pink desert colour schemes during WW2)
I would say there is no astroglide in an M258A1 personal first aid kit, but someone would likely take it wrong, not understand the humor I intended, and get all butt-hurt over it. Since I don't want to see anyone butt-hurt over the lack of astroglide, I won't say a word about it.



With the world in the mess it is, is this really the type of stupidity we need to worry about?

[Rani]

I'm still having conflicting feelings about the whole issue. I like what has been said about just because something isn't pro-gay doesn't mean it's anti-gay. Doesn't DADT fall directly in line with private hiring practices? I mean sexual orientation isn't on any job application I've ever filled out. (We're Wells Fargo! Welcome to our employ! Now tell us who you're fucking, how often and who's usually on top!) Nearly every private employer has very strict rules about co-workers dating, and sexual activity in the office or during working hours is very much prohibited, so it just doesn't seem like it should be of such an issue. I'm very anti-discrimination, so why not ban sexual orientation information period, heterosexual, homosexual, or goat-sexual (generals only). I just don't think sexuality belongs in the work place period. It makes me wonder if it's the first step where the next would be requiring family house, etc., which I guess legally they've have to offer same gender couples.

Maybe it's because I have so many gay friend, but their sexuality isn't the way I view them. I view them as people. I like him, don't like her, do like her and hate him when he's been drinking, you know what I mean? They're just people to me, so I don't "compartmentalize" or label them that way. It's a "non-issue" in my friendships. I certainly want them to be proud of who they are, but isn't that about whether you're smart, accomplished, an artist, a scientist, etc? It's not about who they're sleeping with. So I'm having a hard time understanding why a display of sexual orientation is something that's being pushed. I'm not sure I'm making sense....... But I hope you understand what I mean.

'Rani

[BBKakes]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1285569994' post='483251']
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1285562454' post='483238']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1285561301' post='483236']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1285134428' post='482781']
Lady Gaga made the news recently by getting involved in the gays in the military debate. Of course, Congress put off the vote, probably till after the election. I consider myself fairly liberal, especially concerning social issues. I am also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and the Vietnam conflict. My military was straight, circa 1965 and if you were found to be gay you were forced out of the service. I saw a few guys literally disappear during my enlistments. Today things are different, I reckon and maybe gays want to serve our country' The general being considered for the next commandant of the Marine Corps said his peace about the issue. He has reservations and doesn't think, given the special nature of the Marine Corps that it would work. I have to stand with Gen. Amos on this issue. I find it hard to accept gays in the Marines. This maybe latent homophobia working or some good old Marine Corps brainwashing still in my mind. I'm not particularly homophobic. I've had gay friends and co workers and never had a problem with that. I just see it as disruptive in the military. Am i being old fashioned, prejudiced or too rigid. I'd like to hear what you'all think regarding this matter.
[/quote]

I am in complete agreement.

Gays will, and do destroy esprit de corps. Their presence weakens the comradeship of a unit. The average early adult male is uncomfortable around them in a combat situation. There is a reluctance to count on them, and heterosexual males do not believe they will provide sufficient support to others in the unit.

Gays openly serving are, and will always be an offense to some cultures. They will make US units a target of some radical religious sects. Let me guess, Rani thinks we should jail the freak that wants to burn Korans because it is offensive to Muslims, and will make US soldiers targets... but thinks those same soldiers would be fine as targets if it's a result of an openly gay member of that unit offending the locals in a culture where homosexuality is a crime. How can you expect a soldier to suppress any display of their religion, to eat a diet free of pork, and others to avoid any references to alcoholic beverages, to remove any photos of their loved ones in which a female is depicted in with no covering over their shoulders/arms/hair. Even worse, to remove any photos of the family dog from their personal belongings, all because it offends the enemy, or host nation, then in the same breath tell me we need openly gay soldiers-which will offend them far more than the previous affronts. That is epically silly, and demonstrates a lack of thorough thought behind your opinion.

the thought of even one soldier getting killed because we need to coddle a special interest group more worried about their sexual display, then the good of the others in a unit makes me sick.
[/quote]

No. Gays do not destroy the spirit of the corps, it's the assholes who are homophobic that destroy it. Just because a man is gay does not mean he wants to have sex with you -- or any other man in his corps. The heterosexual males need to get over their issues with homosexuality, they're the problem not the gays. Homosexuality is also not offensive to Islam nor any other major military company. All major religions would be able to adapt to a military life style, because they knew what they were getting in to when they signed up. Radicals in any religion wouldn't join the armed forces, any branch, if they truly followed their religious traditions. Religion is not a buffet, you can't pick and choose which rules you follow; the only exception is a logical systematics approach to disregarding outdated laws or proper interpretation of the religious texts.
[/quote]

On my local news radio, there was a discussion of whether or not the rank and file really give a damn. [b]They couldn't interview troops in the field easily, so they did what they considered to be a reasonable sampling of troops staying put in one place - every VA hospital in the country[/b]. According to the news report, overwhelmingly, they didn't much give a damn who the guy covering their back was sleeping with, so long as he was covering their backs.

Scotsman, I've said since the very beginning rank and file should be making this decision. The still must be up and running because you've stopped reading before ranting.

'Rani
[/quote]


While I think that people who lay down their lives for our country shouldn't be judged by who they share their bed with, I do question the statistical significance of surveying only the hospitalized military personel on this topic. Edited October 22, 2010 by BBKakes

[TheScotsman]

One of the overlooked problems would fall under UCMJ Article 134, along with Article 92, and 80 as they apply to Article 134.

Fraternization will become an enormous can of worms that no human being will ever be able to sort out.

*CfMR study in 2008 found that 73% of women, and 72% of men in the military said false accusations of sexual assault were a problem in the military.
*41% of all reported rapes in the military (2003, latest released numbers) were later recanted. The majority reasons for false reports fell into 3 categories, jealousy, revenge on ex-partner (most common), and revenge for failure to advance.

How would anyone deal with the potential mess of not knowing what they were dealing with? As an officer, I would not have wanted to subject myself to the possible risks of any confrontation dealing with a inferiorly-graded member of the opposite sex in an environment that did not have a half dozen NCO's or above as witnesses. Now you want to add the variable of not knowing if the man you are dealing with is actually a woman-man? For the love of it all, that is feckin' nuts!

I have noticed the only real supporters of open gayness all comes from people that have never operated in a field-grade command position in a military environment. Could it be that activists just want to force their beliefs on the military? Reinstate the draft, or maybe just require 3 years of active duty military service for every person between 18, and 21... then watch them all go Cpl Klinger in the hopes of getting out of their obligation.

Many of us think DADT is fine. It's really just sweeping the problem under the rug, but sometimes the best way to deal with a situation that has no good answer is to do exactly that. No one is saying that LGB can't serve, just that they can't act out their sex life on military reservations, with other soldiers. Once they pass that guard shack every soldier is free to go put on some stilettos and shag the neighbor-boy all they want.