Looky What I Found!

[agunn1231]

yeah....i was thinkin about trying it with natural coals vs quick lights. but i still think that it's a bomb experiment

[cotsi95]

If you want a REAL comparison between narghile and cigarettes then I HIGHLY suggest that you read this article. It is actually supported by scientific data that was PROPERLY collected using both a machine that simulates a hookah smoked (NOT a cigarette smoking machine!) and real world data collected (plasma,urine,and saliva) from hookah smokers after a session. These were not only collected in 1 place but in 6 different studies.

I believe that these results are pretty close to the real world even though i am sure there will be nay sayers here. Basically if you smoke daily it is equivalent to smoking 10 cigarettes during a session and is you smoke occasionally (the survey says every 4.5days) then a single session is equivalent to 2 cigarettes. These numbers are different because the rate of nicotine consumption raises the more you smoke.

Just read the article. lol

[url="https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1vtUaaLVfIsjqPrV9aTAo_5pzgZE6XCDXoq175O0THPA8PcKaL_OXCmNP950f&hl=en"]Waterpipe smoking and nicotine exposure: A review of the current evidence[/url]

[flydigital55]

[quote name='cotsi95' timestamp='1287024208' post='484990']
If you want a REAL comparison between narghile and cigarettes then I HIGHLY suggest that you read this article. It is actually supported by scientific data that was PROPERLY collected using both a machine that simulates a hookah smoked (NOT a cigarette smoking machine!) and real world data collected (plasma,urine,and saliva) from hookah smokers after a session. These were not only collected in 1 place but in 6 different studies.

I believe that these results are pretty close to the real world even though i am sure there will be nay sayers here. Basically if you smoke daily it is equivalent to smoking 10 cigarettes during a session and is you smoke occasionally (the survey says every 4.5days) then a single session is equivalent to 2 cigarettes. These numbers are different because the rate of nicotine consumption raises the more you smoke.

Just read the article. lol

[url="https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1vtUaaLVfIsjqPrV9aTAo_5pzgZE6XCDXoq175O0THPA8PcKaL_OXCmNP950f&hl=en"]Waterpipe smoking and nicotine exposure: A review of the current evidence[/url]
[/quote]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but that study is completely flawed IMO (like most studies!) And this thread is great! I had to comment...

Ok, so they were able to prove that in a non-smoker, a hookah session (traditional [font="sans-serif"][size="2"][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E2%80%98assel"]Mu'assel[/url] available in the location of the test, I assume is not "weak" in nicotine[/size][/font]) resulted in detectable nicotine levels in the urine equiv. to 2 cigs. That's all that I can really take from that, and it doesn't say much. The study insinuates that because of that glorious finding, hookah users are exposing themselves to much greater risk and harm than they are being led to believe.

The study was mainly attacking the notion that water-filtration reduces nicotine to "safe" levels. WTH? Who cares? I can control my nicotine intake, I don't expect nor do I want water to filter it out significantly. The water IMO is strictly for the smoother experience, the moisturization, and the slight cooling of the vapor. It is easy to take this study out of context (thanks to the way it was written).

This study never identifies or touches upon the fact that at least some waterpipe users DO NOT reach combustion during their sessions. Did the subjects in their study combust? I'm pretty new to this hookah thing but so far I've figured that combustion = bad with a hookah.. when you get too hot you start to taste the beginning of combustion. Ok, there are lots of us who don't combust. Sure I hear that traditionally and still today there are those that drop the coal right into the bowl, or accidentally start to combust, but this doesn't seem the norm to me.

As for studies comparing vapor to smoke on various materials, there has been a proven significant reduction of byproduct gases released, most of them traditionally attributed to byproducts of combustion. There has been some "qualitative" proof that there is less toxic gases like CO, cyanide, etc. but no "quantitative" results observed (or sought). Much more needs to be done but WHO is going to do it? There has been movement in a certain type of "smoking" in which approved testing has too much resistance, but I have yet to see movement on the tobacco front (wonder why that is???) . Surely BIG TOBACCO has the money and the motive to get it done, and perhaps they already have but we don't know about it (yet). Right now with emerging markets (outside US) maybe it is enough to go along with the idea that its ALL BAD and NOTHING CAN BE BETTER so you might as well just smoke, and they will be alright.. but if/when enough competition threatens them they will have to join the bandwagon and promote a safer alternative. That's my conspiracy theory anyhow!

IMO hookah vaporizing is much less damaging and risky than combustion. Nicotine is bad, it's addictive, and has negative side effects, sure, but just how bad is that really, when compared to setting tobacco on fire and inhaling the chemical reaction? I don't know, but my brain and my gut tell me my little hookah usage is far better and less riskier for me than getting in the car and going for a ride up the highway, let alone burning a cig. Hopefully we see some more real science being done out there to give us real answers. Until then I will continue to enjoy my hookah and accept the consequences of my own "study".

[cotsi95]

[quote name='flydigital55' timestamp='1299505960' post='500507']
[quote name='cotsi95' timestamp='1287024208' post='484990']
If you want a REAL comparison between narghile and cigarettes then I HIGHLY suggest that you read this article. It is actually supported by scientific data that was PROPERLY collected using both a machine that simulates a hookah smoked (NOT a cigarette smoking machine!) and real world data collected (plasma,urine,and saliva) from hookah smokers after a session. These were not only collected in 1 place but in 6 different studies.

I believe that these results are pretty close to the real world even though i am sure there will be nay sayers here. Basically if you smoke daily it is equivalent to smoking 10 cigarettes during a session and is you smoke occasionally (the survey says every 4.5days) then a single session is equivalent to 2 cigarettes. These numbers are different because the rate of nicotine consumption raises the more you smoke.

Just read the article. lol

[url="https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1vtUaaLVfIsjqPrV9aTAo_5pzgZE6XCDXoq175O0THPA8PcKaL_OXCmNP950f&hl=en"]Waterpipe smoking and nicotine exposure: A review of the current evidence[/url]
[/quote]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but that study is completely flawed IMO (like most studies!) And this thread is great! I had to comment...

Ok, so they were able to prove that in a non-smoker, a hookah session (traditional [font="sans-serif"][size="2"][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%E2%80%98assel"]Mu'assel[/url] available in the location of the test, I assume is not "weak" in nicotine[/size][/font]) resulted in detectable nicotine levels in the urine equiv. to 2 cigs. That's all that I can really take from that, and it doesn't say much. The study insinuates that because of that glorious finding, hookah users are exposing themselves to much greater risk and harm than they are being led to believe.

The study was mainly attacking the notion that water-filtration reduces nicotine to "safe" levels. WTH? Who cares? I can control my nicotine intake, I don't expect nor do I want water to filter it out significantly. The water IMO is strictly for the smoother experience, the moisturization, and the slight cooling of the vapor. It is easy to take this study out of context (thanks to the way it was written).

This study never identifies or touches upon the fact that at least some waterpipe users DO NOT reach combustion during their sessions. Did the subjects in their study combust? I'm pretty new to this hookah thing but so far I've figured that combustion = bad with a hookah.. when you get too hot you start to taste the beginning of combustion. Ok, there are lots of us who don't combust. Sure I hear that traditionally and still today there are those that drop the coal right into the bowl, or accidentally start to combust, but this doesn't seem the norm to me.

As for studies comparing vapor to smoke on various materials, there has been a proven significant reduction of byproduct gases released, most of them traditionally attributed to byproducts of combustion. There has been some "qualitative" proof that there is less toxic gases like CO, cyanide, etc. but no "quantitative" results observed (or sought). Much more needs to be done but WHO is going to do it? There has been movement in a certain type of "smoking" in which approved testing has too much resistance, but I have yet to see movement on the tobacco front (wonder why that is???) . Surely BIG TOBACCO has the money and the motive to get it done, and perhaps they already have but we don't know about it (yet). Right now with emerging markets (outside US) maybe it is enough to go along with the idea that its ALL BAD and NOTHING CAN BE BETTER so you might as well just smoke, and they will be alright.. but if/when enough competition threatens them they will have to join the bandwagon and promote a safer alternative. That's my conspiracy theory anyhow!

IMO hookah vaporizing is much less damaging and risky than combustion. Nicotine is bad, it's addictive, and has negative side effects, sure, but just how bad is that really, when compared to setting tobacco on fire and inhaling the chemical reaction? I don't know, but my brain and my gut tell me my little hookah usage is far better and less riskier for me than getting in the car and going for a ride up the highway, let alone burning a cig. Hopefully we see some more real science being done out there to give us real answers. Until then I will continue to enjoy my hookah and accept the consequences of my own "study".
[/quote]

Actually if you read the article closer it has a far more pro hookah attitude to it then any other article. You are correct that you control your nicotine intake and that is the end finds of the study that the more often you smoke the more nicotine your body will ingest. Also one of the studies is of smokers in a hookah bar so I would imagine that they didn't make them smoke a bowl that was burning.

The first study used a smoking machine to mimic a person and analyze the results. To mimic a human they first went to a hookah bar and ask a certain number of people to smoke and attached a device to recored the length of the pull and how much volume was inhaled. The second part they watched hookah smokers to see how often they took a puff and adjusted the machine accordingly.

The 2nd study analyzed the urine and saliva of hookah smokers vs cig smokers and non smokers over 6 different studies in 6 different areas and averaged the results.


[b]Daily waterpipe smoking produced a 24-hr urinary cotinine level that is equivalent to smoking 10 cigarettes/day (95% CI57–13 cigarettes/day).[/b]
[b]Occasional waterpipe smoking (one session of waterpipe use during a 4-day period) produced a 24-hr urinary cotinine level equivalent to having smoked two cigarettes in one pipe session.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
This I believe is not only believable but reliable information, It is not biased and compared to the other "Studies" that say smoking a hookah for an hour is equal to 2-10 packs this one is much more hookah friendly. Nicotine builds up in the system that is why if you smoke everyday you will keep that nicotine build up full whereas you smoke every 4 days you allow that nicotine to flush out of your system thus the lower readings.

But seriously this is a website dedicated to smoking hookah, even if they said it was worse then eating rat poison and had proof the vast majority of us wouldn't stop smoking. I agree that there needs to be better studies done on hookah smoking and the harm it may or may not cause but so far I believe that this is the most reliable and unbiased study out there right now. That is why I hosted it on my personal google docs account so people could read it.

[glider]

I'd like to also add there is a YouTube vid out that uses a pump to smoke 100 cigs. The end result was the water in the base.... The "water" was poured into a pan and boiled to leave just the tar. It literally looks like the tar you think of when you think.. Tar. Black and makes anything stick to anything else. I'll find that vid and post it up when I find it.

[flydigital55]

Thanks for that, good points and thank you very much for posting/hosting these findings. It definitely shed some light on lots of questions I had. And indeed this study is far more forgiving than some others! But still! Please forgive my opinionated diatribe in advance...


My distaste of the study is more just me being upset in general with how "science" is being used recklessly in the media, spreading disinformation.. par for the course I know. Unfair one-sided scientific studies just chap my hide. People seem to just instantly accept media cliff notes of studies and regulatory knee-jerk reactions are the norm. For example, just do a Google on this subject and you'll find thousands of media outlets spreading the message that "it's official, proven as fact, you idiots trying to pretend that any form of tobacco use is safer than any other method can shut up now".

Anyway, I am really interested, as we all are, in FACTS. We are all big boys and girls and can make our own decisions (shhhh.... don't tell the government) and most of us can actually make GOOD ONES if we are informed with real facts. If there are accurate, unbiased scientific discoveries which unequivocally prove "our" method of hookah usage is as dangerous as they proclaim, I want to be the first to know. I'm not going to argue with real facts. It might not make me quit "vaporizing" but I would certainly, being informed, make changes to limit or reduce my health risks. And I think this is what we're up against.... Because the folks behind these studies don't want folks thinking, even for a second, regardless of anything as silly as science, that there is anything we can do to "manage" our risk short of not using altogether. Unbiased, science-based studies are a liability for them.

The other real problem here is lack of knowledge, ability and/or will to differentiate between full combustion and below-combustion heating (by those conducting these studies as well as joe public). I guess this is expected, vaporization delivery is still fairly new (extremely new when it comes to tobacco). There is definitely a bit of a fight brewing between those who feel vaporization is something worth studying, and those who feel that you ought to be a completely moron trying to rationalize for even considering it. Especially when "studies already prove it's worse than 100 cigs". A quick google search for commented articles will find plenty of one-sided bashing on the internet!

Sorry for the rambling! This just gets me all fired up. Anyway, here's hoping for more good data. I wish I had resources available to contribute or participate in such studies.... hmmm there are "a few" folks on this forum - perhaps some key folks can team up and help make some of this happen? I can dream can't I?

I am really interested in:

- CO emission level study in various types and brands of coals, during lighting, initial burn, and burnout/ash phases
- Extensive chromatography studies (VPC/GLPC/GC-MS/etc.) with various "bowl" temperatures with various brands, targeting all potential toxic compounds, not just nicotine!


Signed,

Moron (enjoying some SB Tangerine Dream)

[cotsi95]

[quote name='flydigital55' timestamp='1299533487' post='500546']
Thanks for that, good points and thank you very much for posting/hosting these findings. It definitely shed some light on lots of questions I had. And indeed this study is far more forgiving than some others! But still! Please forgive my opinionated diatribe in advance...


My distaste of the study is more just me being upset in general with how "science" is being used recklessly in the media, spreading disinformation.. par for the course I know. Unfair one-sided scientific studies just chap my hide. People seem to just instantly accept media cliff notes of studies and regulatory knee-jerk reactions are the norm. For example, just do a Google on this subject and you'll find thousands of media outlets spreading the message that "it's official, proven as fact, you idiots trying to pretend that any form of tobacco use is safer than any other method can shut up now".

Anyway, I am really interested, as we all are, in FACTS. We are all big boys and girls and can make our own decisions (shhhh.... don't tell the government) and most of us can actually make GOOD ONES if we are informed with real facts. If there are accurate, unbiased scientific discoveries which unequivocally prove "our" method of hookah usage is as dangerous as they proclaim, I want to be the first to know. I'm not going to argue with real facts. It might not make me quit "vaporizing" but I would certainly, being informed, make changes to limit or reduce my health risks. And I think this is what we're up against.... Because the folks behind these studies don't want folks thinking, even for a second, regardless of anything as silly as science, that there is anything we can do to "manage" our risk short of not using altogether. Unbiased, science-based studies are a liability for them.

The other real problem here is lack of knowledge, ability and/or will to differentiate between full combustion and below-combustion heating (by those conducting these studies as well as joe public). I guess this is expected, vaporization delivery is still fairly new (extremely new when it comes to tobacco). There is definitely a bit of a fight brewing between those who feel vaporization is something worth studying, and those who feel that you ought to be a completely moron trying to rationalize for even considering it. Especially when "studies already prove it's worse than 100 cigs". A quick google search for commented articles will find plenty of one-sided bashing on the internet!

Sorry for the rambling! This just gets me all fired up. Anyway, here's hoping for more good data. I wish I had resources available to contribute or participate in such studies.... hmmm there are "a few" folks on this forum - perhaps some key folks can team up and help make some of this happen? I can dream can't I?

I am really interested in:

- CO emission level study in various types and brands of coals, during lighting, initial burn, and burnout/ash phases
- Extensive chromatography studies (VPC/GLPC/GC-MS/etc.) with various "bowl" temperatures with various brands, targeting all potential toxic compounds, not just nicotine!


Signed,

Moron (enjoying some SB Tangerine Dream)

[/quote]

While I agree with you that most studies are completely mislead in the media to deter anyone from even trying hookah, this study (as well as any I post in the future) was not found by a random google search. This is a peer reviewed article published in a well respecter journal. Why does that matter you say? Because peer reviewed articles and studies are the most reliable information you can get on any subject. I agree that there is a big difference between combustion and vaporization and that is why hookah is not nearly as bad as a cig (in combination with the lack of 1000+ added chemicals). I also believe that nicotine is really not the devil chemical that the media and everyone else plays it up to be, i feel its just as bad as caffeine. But those are my personal opinions so take them at face value.

I have a few other good articles I have come across including one that studied how much nicotine stays in the pipe. Since nicotine is a water soluble compound the water does filter out a little bit of the nicotine but something I was surprised to learn was that the hose and mouth piece also trap some nicotine (something around 5% if I remember correctly.) This I believe is why hoses will have a funky taste to them after smoking. But that is just my personal guess.

[HubertLovesMagdyZidan]

THAT WAS A MAGDY ZIDAN MEDIUM PHAROAH!!

[GoldenFingerBl4ster99]

Very interesting experiment. I wish there were a way to get this information widespread immediately, especially since I heard something about making hookah bars illegal in Oregon. Or at least that's what I thought I read on this forum somewhere.