Loose Change

[Sapphire]

[color="#0000ff"]I am not the type that gets involved with political stuff. I have never been good at it, and never understood a lot of it.
But....I have always had a feeling that some things on 9/11 ... just diddnt feel right.
I am usualy pretty open to new ideas and info. I am not one sided at all.
I watched this movie last night...and It changed my entire reality.
Really shook me up.
If you have not seen it ... you should.

Anyone else see this? Did it get to you the way it got to me? opinions?[/color]

[mustafabey]

Its an interesting theory,given the end result of 9/11 for the Bush administration, but I seriously doubt elements of the government were involved in the 9/11 tragedy. Islamic fundamentalism and terrorist actions had been growing for years,the first WTC bombing, the African embassies,the USS Cole, these were all al Qaeda approved actions against the US. Clinton even sent some cruise missles into Afghanistan to target Osama. Recently Rahm Emanuel said, in regards to the gulf oil spill, something like, we can't let a crisis go to waste. I think the same climate prevailed in the Bush administration. I gave the neo cons the excuse for war in Iraq, for increased government interference in private lives and a chance to greatly increase the powers of the White House.
In a sense, there is some responsiblity,in that al Qaeda was created under circumstances greatly controlled by the CIA and Pakistan's ISI and when the Afghan/Soviet war was over nothing was done to insure a stable government in Afghanistan. We seem to create our own problems by our lack of understanding of this region. The greatest benefactor of the recent war in Iraq was the Iranian government. We removed their biggest threat and put into power the Shia, so if this one doesn't blow up in our face I would be greatly suprised. We didn't create Ahmedinejad, but without our actions, he'd still be in local politics. Same with bin Laden, we didn't create him, but we sure enabled him, mainly by letting the Pakistani ISI control the disbursment of funds and goodies to different mujahideen groups. So, no I don't think it was a conspiracy but some members of the Bush cabinet must have been happy it happened. Rumsfeld and Cheney for sure.

[Tom1]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1288279429' post='486661']
but I seriously doubt elements of the government were involved in the 9/11 tragedy.
[/quote]

Not as unbelievable as you might think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Tom16689' timestamp='1288286219' post='486665']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1288279429' post='486661']
but I seriously doubt elements of the government were involved in the 9/11 tragedy.
[/quote]

Not as unbelievable as you might think.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods"]http://en.wikipedia....tion_Northwoods[/url]
[/quote]

Yes, false flag ops have been always popular. Hitler used this scenario to invade Poland. Recently, it is suspected that the CIA and Algerian intelligence cooked up some kidnappings in the Sahara in order to blame it on an organization of their manufacture called al qaeda in the maghreb (AQIM) in order to use this as an excuse to funnel troops into the Sahara. A British anthropologist named Jeremy Keenan makes the case in his book "Dark Sahara". I have just ordered Loose Change from Netflix, yet feel an operation of the size and scope of 9/11 is to far beyond the talents of our numerous non cooperating intelligence agencies. Its one thing to plan it and quite another to pull it off. But it surely is in the realm of possibility.

[ryno]

Do I think everything that happened on 9/11 adds up? Not entirely... But trying to keep that many people that would have known about it silent also is something hard for me to believe.

[Tom1]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1288288075' post='486667']
[quote name='Tom16689' timestamp='1288286219' post='486665']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1288279429' post='486661']
but I seriously doubt elements of the government were involved in the 9/11 tragedy.
[/quote]

Not as unbelievable as you might think.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods"]http://en.wikipedia....tion_Northwoods[/url]
[/quote]

Yes, false flag ops have been always popular. Hitler used this scenario to invade Poland. Recently, it is suspected that the CIA and Algerian intelligence cooked up some kidnappings in the Sahara in order to blame it on an organization of their manufacture called al qaeda in the maghreb (AQIM) in order to use this as an excuse to funnel troops into the Sahara. A British anthropologist named Jeremy Keenan makes the case in his book "Dark Sahara". I have just ordered Loose Change from Netflix, yet feel an operation of the size and scope of 9/11 is to far beyond the talents of our numerous non cooperating intelligence agencies. Its one thing to plan it and quite another to pull it off. But it surely is in the realm of possibility.
[/quote]

I don't know if you knew. but Loose Change is on youtube.I'm sure the netflix version will have better quality though.

[quote name='ryno' timestamp='1288288695' post='486669']
Do I think everything that happened on 9/11 adds up? Not entirely... But trying to keep that many people that would have known about it silent also is something hard for me to believe.
[/quote]

This is true, but the government would rather kill countless people if they were a risk to blab rather then be exposed. This is hypothetical of course.

[mustafabey]

Evidence?

[Rani]

I've always had the feeling that there's more to be known about 9/11. I'm torn in that I don't think our government is efficient enough to carry off the type of covert operation and subsequent cover-up of this magnitude. I can't see it happening without someone in some small part of it being unable to keep it secret. But although I consider it unlikely for all those logical reasons, I can't say it's impossible.

Some of the things that have always bothered me is the fact that the terrorist were vetted into the country despite being on the watch lists. Several agencies quietly admitted failure to communicate. Now wait a minute....... That alone is suspicious. Anybody remember any other time [u]ever[/u] when a government agency admitted failure and that it was potentially their "fault"? Where's the "turn over every rock" investigation? We've been investigating the lone gunman in Dallas for more than 40 years, over and over. But we have yet to have much more than a token investigation into 9/11. We also have imprisoned "terrorists" in Guantanamo for years without taking them trial. Why? Speedy trial only woks when we feel like it/ How is imprisoning people without trial any different from what we denounce in dictators around the world and even use as an excuse to invade their country? What would they possibly say at a trial? Why would we subvert our own justice system we're so proud of unless there's something we don't want them to day?

I also find it :"interesting" that so many people who claimed they heard explosions, ended up suddenly quiet. Actually vanishing from public consciousness. The towers [u]were[/u] designed to collapse inward on themselves in the case of structural failure to prevent domino effect among all the skyscrapers in downtown. But they went down awfully fast. I've seen purposely explosive laden buildings being demolished that took longer to go down. At the very least, where's the investigation into the structural collapse?

I find it very convenient that a previously unknown little terrorist group jumps in and takes credit without any substantive proof they were responsible, despite claiming responsibility. Biin Laden was pretty much elevated to martyr/hero status just by claiming his organization was responsible. And he managed to start a war with his claim. Got the entire Western world focused on him. So he had a reason to claim responsibility regardless of whether or not it was true.

There are just all these little things that sincerely bother me. I'm not ready to jump on the big conspiracy bandwagon, but the details are pretty obscure, and perhaps intentionally so. There are a whole lot of people I know who don't stress about it, but who believe it's entirely possible that an American group had reason and ability to create 9/11. I'm doubtful we'll ever know the truth. And while we can consider the possibility, it's kind of redundant. Because it's like the trust factor in a relationship. If you don't trust your government, you're probably already screwed. You won't trust the system enough to work within it, and you don't have the ability to walk away.

'Rani

[Sapphire]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1288289965' post='486676']
I've always had the feeling that there's more to be known about 9/11. I'm torn in that I don't think our government is efficient enough to carry off the type of covert operation and subsequent cover-up of this magnitude. I can't see it happening without someone in some small part of it being unable to keep it secret. But although I consider it unlikely for all those logical reasons, I can't say it's impossible.

Some of the things that have always bothered me is the fact that the terrorist were vetted into the country despite being on the watch lists. Several agencies quietly admitted failure to communicate. Now wait a minute....... That alone is suspicious. Anybody remember any other time [u]ever[/u] when a government agency admitted failure and that it was potentially their "fault"? Where's the "turn over every rock" investigation? We've been investigating the lone gunman in Dallas for more than 40 years, over and over. But we have yet to have much more than a token investigation into 9/11. We also have imprisoned "terrorists" in Guantanamo for years without taking them trial. Why? Speedy trial only woks when we feel like it/ How is imprisoning people without trial any different from what we denounce in dictators around the world and even use as an excuse to invade their country? What would they possibly say at a trial? Why would we subvert our own justice system we're so proud of unless there's something we don't want them to day?

I also find it :"interesting" that so many people who claimed they heard explosions, ended up suddenly quiet. Actually vanishing from public consciousness. The towers [u]were[/u] designed to collapse inward on themselves in the case of structural failure to prevent domino effect among all the skyscrapers in downtown. But they went down awfully fast. I've seen purposely explosive laden buildings being demolished that took longer to go down. At the very least, where's the investigation into the structural collapse?

I find it very convenient that a previously unknown little terrorist group jumps in and takes credit without any substantive proof they were responsible, despite claiming responsibility. Biin Laden was pretty much elevated to martyr/hero status just by claiming his organization was responsible. And he managed to start a war with his claim. Got the entire Western world focused on him. So he had a reason to claim responsibility regardless of whether or not it was true.

There are just all these little things that sincerely bother me. I'm not ready to jump on the big conspiracy bandwagon, but the details are pretty obscure, and perhaps intentionally so. There are a whole lot of people I know who don't stress about it, but who believe it's entirely possible that an American group had reason and ability to create 9/11. I'm doubtful we'll ever know the truth. And while we can consider the possibility, it's kind of redundant. Because it's like the trust factor in a relationship. If you don't trust your government, you're probably already screwed. You won't trust the system enough to work within it, and you don't have the ability to walk away.

'Rani
[/quote]


Yea, they go over a lot of this in the movie. LOTS of people knew about wierd stuff...and came forward. They even showed interviews with them. But then.... they go missing or are pronounced dead at random. It really brought a LOT of stuff to light.

[Chreees]

Part of me believes the conspiracy, while the other part wants to believe that our government would never do such a thing. Then again...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat"]http://en.wikipedia....p_d%27%C3%A9tat[/url]

It's pretty much proven our government likes to instigate shit and have certain agendas.

Thanks for mentioning Operation Northwoods, Tom... That's another good one.

[mustafabey]

Mossedegh! Another example of an op that comes back to bite ya in the ass. Here began distrust of America that later led to the overthrow of the Shah and the rise of Khomenei. Ahmedinejad's rhetoric begins from this very issue. You mess with shit and you never know how it turns out. A lesson America has never learned.

[TheScotsman]

Of all the conspiracy theories, the 9/11 truthers are just one rung behind the birthers for "outa their bloody mind" awards.

The water fluoridation is going to get you, the Illuminati is planning a world coup, and JFK was croaked by the mob, there are black helicopters circling your house tossing out mutilated cows after the aliens are done pulling parts off them.
And if all those don't get you, the free masons are going to bum rush your house, lead by the ghost of Marlyn Monroe, and Elvis Presley, fresh out of witness protection. (and after he helped QE croak Diana because the Royal family is invested in a landmine factory in the congo)



Or maybe there is the other choice, sometimes lax run intel organizations fail to intercept/appreciate the plans made by complete nutcases who are damn sick of the USA flicking political boogers all over the place.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1288326729' post='486741']
Of all the conspiracy theories, the 9/11 truthers are just one rung behind the birthers for "outa their bloody mind" awards.

The water fluoridation is going to get you, the Illuminati is planning a world coup, and JFK was croaked by the mob, there are black helicopters circling your house tossing out mutilated cows after the aliens are done pulling parts off them.
And if all those don't get you, the free masons are going to bum rush your house, lead by the ghost of Marlyn Monroe, and Elvis Presley, fresh out of witness protection. (and after he helped QE croak Diana because the Royal family is invested in a landmine factory in the congo)



Or maybe there is the other choice, sometimes lax run intel organizations fail to intercept/appreciate the plans made by complete nutcases who are damn sick of the USA flicking political boogers all over the place.
[/quote]

But, but, but Scotsman......... You're on the short list for the 2010 "outa their bloody minds" award!

Seriously, I don't know that our government is efficient enough to pull off any kind of all encompassing conspiracy like 9/11. I'm thinking in government, at least a couple people would have a "holy crap, what if somebody finds out" mentality and manage to put a cabosh on the whole thing. IF, great big bloody IF, a conspiracy did actually occur which involved 9/11, I'm more inclined to think it would be some non-governmental group who thought there would be money to be made off a national terrorist disaster. God knows the power brokers do a whole lot of things behind closed doors, and quite honestly, we the people are just inconvenient noise makers as far as they're concerned since they've discovered the cheap labor of Asia. So if something should actually come out in the future that there WAS a conspiracy involved, I';m going to looking more towards Wall Street and it's ilk rather than Capitol Hill, or "Retirement Ranch" in Texas.

'Rani

'Rani

[Sapphire]

But thats what I am saying. Thats all the same stuff I thought BEFORE I saw this.
You gotta watch it ..... then come back and tell me what you think. Its like taking the Red pill on the Matrix. There was SO MUCH that not a lot of people know about. and SO MUCH video proof of things.... You just... have to QUESTION. Thats all.


[color="#ff0000"]Watch the movie[/color]. Then come post what you think. I am curious to know how it came across to others. [IMG]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz200/pepper2010_bucket/smiley-movie.gif[/IMG]

[r1v3th3ad]

I'm a 9/11 truth nut...I can't remember if I ever finished loose change, seemed to long to hold my attention. But I've followed the movement since the days after the attacks my dad told me that it might have been the government.

I'm actually doing a group paper in my philosophy class on 9/11 on whether it was terrorists or the government, using proper argument and evidence, so I'll be constantly checking back here I guess lol

[mustafabey]

netflix says my copy of loose change should arrive tomorrow, looking forward it seeing it and replying to this thread. I get a charge out of conspiracy theories,political and otherwise, and while I believe there maybe some truth to them, I figure our wonderful government is to inept, riddled with corruption and infighting to pull this kind of stuff off. As Rani said, multinational corporations like bechtel and halliburton certainly could.

[mustafabey]

I just finished watching this movie and the interviews.First off I am one feels there are other agendas being worked in this country other than the agenda presented to us. Be they multinational corporations, a military industrial complex, oil barons, whoever i don't know. the movie calls them globalists and that not a bad moniker. I agree they are out there. This movie presents a series of selectively chosen facts and quite a few assumptions to make its case. As it does not present any dissenting evidence its presentation is flawed and biased. It leaves large areas unexplored,skimming thru the actual terrorists who flew the planes, to spend a large portion of time with the way buildings collapsed. One is presented with so many pieces, so many players, CIA,FBI,the terrorist pilots,White House,Immigration,NORAD,the Bush family etc it seems to me to be a far too convoluted plot involving far too many people to pull it off AND keep it quiet. Some parts are scary,i don't want to believe my country is THAT evil.It may not be that evil but I for sure know it aint that competent. These bozos fucked up Iraq so much,it gives me no reason to think they did this. Could it have happened this way ,sure. Did it, well the juries still out. In the opening parts of the movie they discuss the Reichstag fire, Roosevelt/Pearl harbor, neither of which has led to any conclusive evidence of plot. Tonkin Gulf was a false flag op for sure, but i am again reminded of Rahm Emanuel's comment about the Gulf oil spill disaster, "Can't let a good crisis go to waste" 9/11 happened and people used to it to forward an agenda. The economy collapsed and people used that to facilitate the world's biggest bank heist. Good movie,though,makes ya think

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1288485958' post='486876']
I just finished watching this movie and the interviews.First off I am one feels there are other agendas being worked in this country other than the agenda presented to us. Be they multinational corporations, a military industrial complex, oil barons, whoever i don't know. the movie calls them globalists and that not a bad moniker. I agree they are out there. This movie presents a series of selectively chosen facts and quite a few assumptions to make its case. As it does not present any dissenting evidence its presentation is flawed and biased. It leaves large areas unexplored,skimming thru the actual terrorists who flew the planes, to spend a large portion of time with the way buildings collapsed. One is presented with so many pieces, so many players, CIA,FBI,the terrorist pilots,White House,Immigration,NORAD,the Bush family etc it seems to me to be a far too convoluted plot involving far too many people to pull it off AND keep it quiet. Some parts are scary,i don't want to believe my country is THAT evil.It may not be that evil but I for sure know it aint that competent. These bozos fucked up Iraq so much,it gives me no reason to think they did this. Could it have happened this way ,sure. Did it, well the juries still out. In the opening parts of the movie they discuss the Reichstag fire, Roosevelt/Pearl harbor, neither of which has led to any conclusive evidence of plot. Tonkin Gulf was a false flag op for sure, but i am again reminded of Rahm Emanuel's comment about the Gulf oil spill disaster, "Can't let a good crisis go to waste" 9/11 happened and people used to it to forward an agenda. The economy collapsed and people used that to facilitate the world's biggest bank heist. Good movie,though,makes ya think
[/quote]

Remember the line from Transformers? "You didn't think the President should know you were keeping a hostile alien on ice in the basement?" I don't automatically subscribe to the conspiracy theory of our government being involved, but...... Our government is so large, so convoluted, so right hand clueless about the left hand,, that is is entirely within the realm of possibility that if one branch of the government wanted to pull off something like this, they probably could so long as they kept it within that one single branch. There have been quite a few times when one branch did something nobody else knew about until it came out later when somebody spilled too much too fast to a press interested in actually publishing it. But I'm still inclined to think that if a conspiracy took place it would be what you call the globalists. The question then would be how involved are our government officials in cahoots with the globalists? Probably quite a bit.

And even if they weren't involved, well, they certainly jumped on the bandwagon in a record hurry didn't they? Like you said, never let a good crises go to waste, especially when you have a rocky disputed election to begin your Presidency with.

'Rani

[Balthazar]

It's one of the least convincing conspiracy theories. No matter how hawkish and evil the administration, trying to pull off something like that would simply be moronic, a harakiri of the Republican party.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGd0t8v-d4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM[/youtube]

[Chreees]

[quote name='Balthazar' timestamp='1288527476' post='486894']
It's one of the least convincing conspiracy theories. No matter how hawkish and evil the administration, trying to pull off something like that would simply be moronic, a harakiri of the Republican party.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGd0t8v-d4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM[/youtube]
[/quote]

I just fell asleep. During the first half.

[Balthazar]

That neatly illustrates my point. Sheer logic is boring. Nifty conspiracy theories with eerie music and lots of question marks are way more entertaining. I can see why the "truth"-movement is as big as it is.

[Allstar]

Saw this when it first came out. We all sat down and watched, read through all the reports we had, and then had a discussion at great lengths. Honestly this is one of the more far fetched movies out there. It is easy to take stabs in the dark at the government when you only have a 1/4 of the story. If you ever get the chance to see behind the scenes how the gov works or talk to someone who does. You will get a bigger laugh out of the conspiracy movies. I have seen reports and footage of all of the events mentioned in numerous post. People now-a-days don't want to hear the truth. I mean honestly there isn't a country in the world that doesn't have two or three terrorist organizations operating within their borders. I know that I can't change peoples minds, because there is so much information that I just am unable to share. So I will leave this in parting, if you are able to believe that your fellow Americans would ever kill a fellow innocent American to start a war, then I fear the worst for our country because we will surely fall. Watch 10 ways to Kill Bin Laden. We didn't need a war to do it, chances were better before.

[Barnaby]

I've watched 2 out of the 3 Loose Change versions, and while parts of it do play on sensationalism, they do raise alot of interesting points.

Like, how is it that they find the passport of one of the "hijackers" at the crash site? I mean, how it is even remotely possible that a passport can survive that crash, if it was enough to not only take down a skysraper in the world record time of 45 minutes, but also destroyed the plane's black box?

Or, how is it that the plane that hit the pentagon managed to knock down MULTIPLE parking light posts, and continue to fly into the pentagon, without spewing wreckage all over the lawn?


At the end of the day, there are simply WAY too many questions that have gone unanswered. The official story in no way maps up to the evidence found. And an investigation that cost less than the Clinton scandal seems a tad weak.

Did our government do it? Who knows. But did they at least let it happen? probably. The scary thing is that the project for a new american century called for the need of a another pearl harbor to push their agenda. They were using a logo of the twin towers in cross hairs, LONG before 9/11 happened. Looks like they got their wish, didn't they? Now we're stuck with paying billions of tax dollars to ensure "security", with the loss of our privacy, rights, warrantless searches on us, horrific TSA shit.. list goes on.. And everyday that it does, I curse technology even more, as its making it so easy for these people in charge to control every aspect of our lives.

[Rani]

[quote name='Barnaby' timestamp='1293546400' post='492666']
I've watched 2 out of the 3 Loose Change versions, and while parts of it do play on sensationalism, they do raise alot of interesting points.

Like, how is it that they find the passport of one of the "hijackers" at the crash site? I mean, how it is even remotely possible that a passport can survive that crash, if it was enough to not only take down a skysraper in the world record time of 45 minutes, but also destroyed the plane's black box?

Or, how is it that the plane that hit the pentagon managed to knock down MULTIPLE parking light posts, and continue to fly into the pentagon, without spewing wreckage all over the lawn?


At the end of the day, there are simply WAY too many questions that have gone unanswered. The official story in no way maps up to the evidence found. And an investigation that cost less than the Clinton scandal seems a tad weak.

Did our government do it? Who knows. But did they at least let it happen? probably. The scary thing is that the project for a new american century called for the need of a another pearl harbor to push their agenda. They were using a logo of the twin towers in cross hairs, LONG before 9/11 happened. Looks like they got their wish, didn't they? Now we're stuck with paying billions of tax dollars to ensure "security", with the loss of our privacy, rights, warrantless searches on us, horrific TSA shit.. list goes on.. And everyday that it does, I curse technology even more, as its making it so easy for these people in charge to control every aspect of our lives.
[/quote]

They say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he doesn't exist. I wonder sometimes if our government isn't out there doing all sorts of things just because they know we'll never believe it. While I don't just jump up and buy into the conspiracy theory, I do believe like you that there are way too many unanswered questions for any of us to be sleeping peacefully at night and trust our government to be in charge of our safety.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1293566327' post='492701']
and trust our government to be in charge of our safety.

'Rani
[/quote]

Trust is something I no longer give government. Government lies to us everyday,media spreads the same lies, or half truths or whatever they feel we will swallow. We can disengage Salafi Islamic terrorists in a lot of ways better than chasing ghosts in mountains of Afghanistan. They feed us hate,we thrive on it and it gets directed. The same with things back home,like the economy, they convince us that a tax break for the wealthy is more important than benefits for the unemployed. And we buy it. I doubt 9/11 was an inside job. Too many people would have to be involved in conspiracies like JFK,9/11,Pearl Harbor. You could never keep that many mouths shut, especially in an atmosphere that pays money for dirt. But trust the government, no way. 9/11 was the excuse to invade our privacies they needed and they succeeded. The lemming go right thru the TSA scanners and gropers because they don't time for the hassle.Obama hasn't changed anything,he's following the same line as Bush in regards to "national security". If the shit ever hits the fan the government has the means to supress on a police state scale. Look at all the riots going on this year, France, Britain,Tunisia. What do you think would happen if a million pissed off unemployed marched on DC. Remember the Bonus Army in 1932, all combat vets from WWI, well the media smeared them as commies and thugs and Gen Douglas Mac Arthur and Maj George Patton drove them out of town, rather violently.