Tax Cuts For The Wealthy Vs Unemployment

[mustafabey]

Today the House voted not to extend the Bush era tax cuts to those making over $250,000 a year(which includes I believe ALL hookah forum members) The GOP wants to extend those cuts for the wealthy and not allow extensions on unemployment payments to the 2 million or so whose insurance has run out. How can this kind of behavior go on and still be supported by the electorate?I am constantly amazed at the lack of awareness of many Americans. 51% or more of senior citizens voted for the GOP who wants to greatly alter social security. Are all these seniors rich. Out here in the wilds of Appalchia 9 out of 10 welfare receiving trailer park residents vote GOP even though that party wants to end these entitlements. Apparently welfare is abused only by minorities and not by severely obese beer swilling rednecks. Your comments please!

[Stuie]

First i want to say a few things:

1) One of these "Evil" tax cuts the limit of an ESA (Education Savings Account) to go from $500 to $2000. Meaning, Sorry Cadence, My little Girl, the government took away one of the major ways you were going to pay for college, By the time you get there we hope your ESA will cover books. So glad they renewed maybe my kids can go to college without graduating with $100K in Student Loans.

2) Why do we have this feeling that, because someone busted their butt, got lucky or actually did the work and made it big, they should have to pay for the rest of us. I won't say what I make by my sole income is under $50K annually and my wife does not work. With the price of insurance and everything, let's just say it's not easy supporting a family on that much. But what is the point of me improving myself, getting better jobs and the like to start making $250K a year only to be taxed down to $50K a year? What's my incentive? I know this is just routed in Jealousy. They are Rich so they must be evil because I am not. Time to get back to the basics.

Caveman 1 - I want food
Caveman 2 - Go Get Food
Caveman 1 - You have extra, give me yours
Caveman 2 - Well was going to feed my ailing mom...

Unemployment is good but my mother-in-law has been milking it for 2 years and won't get a job, 30+ Years Nursing Experience, holds all current certifications, she just won't work. Thinks she's entitled. Screw that, Get a Job.

I know she's not the only one either.

[Stuie]

Forgot to mention that tax cut I mentioned, Raising the ESA limit from $500 Annually to $2000 Annually is only applicable to those making less that $250K

It wasn't all for the wealthy, Each party put there spin on it to get what they wanted.

I don't care for either party but I want my little girl to go to college and Future Stuie Offspring.

[Rani]

There's a huge disconnect between the reality of what people want and need, and the politician's perception of what we want and need. Actually I don't think that many people are up in arms about tax cuts. The problem is that taxes are the income of the federal government. We want to keep taking money out, but we don't want to pay anything in. It's like your checking account. Keep ;pulling out more than you're putting end, you're eventually going to be overdrawn. I'm sorry, but we all realize what's actually given to us in this country, right? When was the last time you dug in your personal wallet to fix the road in front of your house? When were you required to pay back the entirely free public education you got through high school? Where do you think the cost of the food for our military comes from? Their uniforms? The weapons keeping them alive? That money doesn't grow on trees - it's tax money. It we keep cutting the income of the government, then Stuie your little girl might not have to worry about college, 'cuz there's likely to be no public school at all for her. That's the reality.

I think where the disconnect comes, is that we waste trillions of dollars on things we simply don't need right now. Unemployment should come before the next shuttle launch. And snail research in the Everglades. And every other non-critical pay-out by the federal government. Not only because we need to support our citizens when they're out of work when our policies created the situation that cost them their livelihoods, but because practically it's the only way the nation can survive. What do you think is going to happen with 30 million unemployed starving citizens on the street? Yes, some people milk the system, hell some people cheat on their taxes over and over. Somebody somewhere is going to always take the easy way out. That doesn't mean you punish everyone actually out there trying to make things better and survive. Our government is simply not being smart about what it's spending the money on. And I haven't a clue how to get them to change that. Because the GOP shot into office on the Tea Party coat tails this past election to the shouts of "fiscal conservative", and screaming to cut off unemployment. But being fiscally conservative doesn't mean not spending any money - it means spending money on the right things at the right time and that simply slipped right on by all those people who voted for fiscal responsibility without looking deeper into the issue of what should be paid for and why.

My biggest problem with the GOP is their hypocrisy. They are (generally) pro-life, but don't want birth control taught in the school system. They want government completely out of our personal lives, but they ban tobacco. And Boehner leads a political crusade against a piece of art in the Smithsonian that he considers distasteful. It's art Boehner! It's supposed to make you think! And sometimes that means shocking you. Dumbass. They actually passed on a bill to feed needy school children because they want the tax breaks more than taking care of the kids who need healthy food. And Sarah Palin got on her soap box claiming that parents should be responsible. Yes, they should. In a private school system, but when the school system is government paid for, then the government should be setting the standards for what children eat. If you don't want them setting the standards with the money they're paying for then send your kids to private school. It's completely and totally screwed up. We just launched another shuttle mission. To the tune of several million dollars. But we can't continue unemployment???? Come on, people........... Has America lost all it's common sense?????

'Rani

[Rani]

By the way......... I just read a new article that the Tea Party with their anti-earmaks shouts are taking just over $1 billion in earmarks. More hypocrisy. And for the life of me, I can't figure out why rank and file Republicans can't see their party for what it is.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Stuie, I can understand your position. I am not aware of ESA's and have never had children. I am a senior, with 2 sources of income,one social security and the second a retirement trust, neither of which I have any control over. I feel like someone has theri hand on my wallet. I lost 50% of the trust during the crash in 08 and haven't had a social security cost of living in 2 years. We paid into Social Security. Yes, and i know plenty of people living on the dole that don't deserve it and i wish we could end the abuse rather than steal my wallet or impact your daughter's education. However there is a social obligation to having wealth. There has always been.In your caveman analogy, that would have never happened. Food was the property of the clan and shared. The hunter may have gotten the steak but the old lady got some burger.When towns and cities came to be, based on the agricultural revolution around 10,000 years, people learned to store food(remember Joseph in the Bible 7 lean years etc) The accumulation of excess wealth led to its administration and government. Today if someone earns lots of money and 250G's is lots of money they live well, i can't see why they can't contribute their share for the good of the people. Maybe the problem comes from the fact that the good of the people doesn't matter anymore and the monies are spent on arms and foreign aid to despots and architects of genocide. I could understand that. And yes people are milking unemployment, no doubt lots of people, however for one minute does that and should that exempt a man who is out looking everyday( and most of us who have lived thru a few recessions knows what a depressing and degrading experience job hunting is) from some kind of safety net. Why punish the man who follows the rules? I guess thats how they gain support of these travesties, tie your daughters education into taking care of the people who contributed to their campaigns. Its on hell of a frigging mess.

[noodle]

Tax cuts across the board are important. I've never gotten a job from a poor person. You want to give the private sector a reason to hire more people. You don't do that by piling on expenses. Rani's complaints about the government spending money on frippery is valid, but misses a vital point. There is no secret council running things. What's going on is the effect of lots of people looking at a situation and seeing ways to take advantage of it. Government has so many fingers in so many pies that gaming the system is relatively easy. Limiting the scope of government will do much to prevent frippery by way of there being fewer means to take advantage of the government.

[Rani]

[quote name='noodle' timestamp='1291346939' post='490147']
Tax cuts across the board are important. I've never gotten a job from a poor person. You want to give the private sector a reason to hire more people. You don't do that by piling on expenses. Rani's complaints about the government spending money on frippery is valid, but misses a vital point. There is no secret council running things. What's going on is the effect of lots of people looking at a situation and seeing ways to take advantage of it. Government has so many fingers in so many pies that gaming the system is relatively easy. Limiting the scope of government will do much to prevent frippery by way of there being fewer means to take advantage of the government.
[/quote]

You've never gotten a job based on a personal income tax break either. The tax beaks are for personal income taxes, not business taxes. The only gap are those very small businesses who file as "S" corporations under their social security numbers, and quite frankly most don't do a whole lot of hiring at that level anyway. However, we need to fix that discrepancy, heavily reward small corporations hiring and keeping workers, and severely tax corporations outsourcing labor. Reagan pretty much screwed small business six ways from Sunday. And while on paper it would seem from the tax tables that the wealthy pay more taxes, in realty between capital gains, etc. and all the breaks you get at higher levels, the more money you make the less you effectively pay. Warren Buffett recently offered $1M straight cash to any CEO who could prove they paid more in actual taxes than any of their employees, and no one could. That's the reality.

I think what we need to do is change the way money is spent. We elect people who tell us what they think we want to hear, and then we pretty much turn them loose to do as they please for the next four or six years. Maybe we shouldn't be voting on people. Maybe we should be voting on expenditures. How many people do you think would have voted "yes" if the ballot measure was "Do we continue to fund the Afghanistan war for another 2 years?"" We need to completely revamp the entire system because we have grown in both population and technology, that the old way just doesn't work anymore.


'Rani

[TheScotsman]

To quote the buffoon-in-chief....

elections have consequences.

Politics is a game, and the goal is to win. Obummer, and nancy pee have upped the game to be a "win at any cost" event; Then they lost that game. So sad... Well, not really, sad that is. At this point, I would hold out on both, force the full extensions, and drop the unemployment, maybe force a gov't shut down into the mess. I would force the administration to take a 2 year extension across the board, or let the DEMOCRAT controlled lame-duck, and the democrat president both preside over the single largest tax increase in history. Either way, it's already a political defeat for the dems, I just find it funny to watch them ride that missile into the dirt! Watch the average 400$ bi-weekly takehome pay get a hit for 55$, and let the public see what their great messiah did for them while dingy-harry was tossing dream act bills at the floor, passing some useless "food safety" act, and babbling about how they needed to go farther. I love it! People I knew from families of any generations of dems are saying they will never vote dem again. Glad they see the light, too bad it took tanking the country to get them to open their damn eyes.

By the way, even if they act now, it's too late, the IRS publications are already out for Q1-2011. Your Jan 1 paycheck is going down. Hope you like your, er, CHANGE!


As for letting the 99ers ride the gravy train, I say it's time for the lazy buggers to go get a job, and suckling the tit of someone else's labor. Enough is enough, if you can't find a job in 2 years, you are unemployable. Hell, your skills are now 2 years out of date, your schedule keeping is off, work ethic is questionable, if for no other reason than you aren't working. Your attitude about employment is lax, or you wouldn't be begging from the gov't rather than getting a job. Not any insult aimed at anyone, just what I, as an employer see, when I see a long gap in work history. Maybe the reason they can't find a job is that they are getting paid for not working... or maybe they are trying to get that all-elusive job by being hired by a poor person! In any case, they are not a good employment risk against someone else applying for the same job, even if significantly less qualified, that has a tight history. If I had to hire them after a big UE stint, you bet there would be a piss cup, and I would be paying my usual background investigator for the deep check. (you would be amazed what they find.) Training people sucks, it costs too much, and destroys too many assets. No employer wants to risk the $ on a bad bet, and that is what you are after 99 weeks of sitting on your arse.

Justify to me why a sole proprietor running a sub-S should be paying unemployment tax at all, much less for 2 years of other people's deadbeat behavior, when that same sole proprietor would not qualify for [u]any[/u] unemployment benefits under [u]any[/u] circumstances?


As for sub S corp, rani likely has jack for grip on just exactly what businesses would be fitting the obummer criteria as "rich"... Just more spouting the party-lib line. Go watch more olberman, seems that is where you are getting all your info. $200K? good grief, that is operating costs for 3 months! a high cashflow doesn't make a person rich. There is a hint in the fact it's called cashflow, not profit. I guess this is something the current admin would know if any member of that giant collection of czars had actually ever run any business.


I am further insulted by unemployed people are taking home more money (on the average) than an E-3 in the military. Something is just not right about letting a deadbeat eat up more than a soldier serving the country. Unemployment should not be a sliding scale, but fixed at the same level as an E-1.

[mustafabey]

What happens then to the 99er's who haven't had their benefits extended. They go on public assistance and the burden shifts from the feds to the state.Back in the 30's FDR put them to work. Your somewhat correct, Scotty, in saying someone on 2 years of unemployment has lost his skills. I recall many years ago, I got laid off, and decided to ride the unemployment train for the summer. In September I went to a head hunter. He wasn't interested and was quite rude,saying that after 3 months on my ass I didn't show the necessary drive for him to consider me. Somehow we have to get these folks back in the work force. I doubt if the WPA and CCC would work today because of union issues etc,but paying them not to work isn't the solution, neither is abandoning them to welfare and homelessness. Pretty soon our cities will look like Rio de janiero with shanty towns everywhere. But our fine government would just send in troops and bulldoze them out. Saw that happen in Tompkins square park in New York in the 80's when the lower east side began to get gentrified and the homeless had to "be removed" Democratic mayor too.
I too doubt if I will vote for the dems in 2012, but I sure won't vote Republican either. Both parties are bought and paid for by the same behind the scenes fat cats and the American middle class is going to parted from their wealth no matter what. Thats the game plan. You can take them down with socialism or you can take them down with fascism , but down is where the fat cats want them.Nuff rant

[Chreees]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1291564257' post='490378']
I too doubt if I will vote for the dems in 2012, but I sure won't vote Republican either. Both parties are bought and paid for by the same behind the scenes fat cats and the American middle class is going to parted from their wealth no matter what. Thats the game plan. You can take them down with socialism or you can take them down with fascism , but down is where the fat cats want them.Nuff rant
[/quote]

This. We need to make a point by voting independent. Either that, or start a revolution. It's the only way.

This two-party system is corrupt and is long past-due to ripped wide open.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1291564257' post='490378']
What happens then to the 99er's who haven't had their benefits extended. They go on public assistance and the burden shifts from the feds to the state.Back in the 30's FDR put them to work. Your somewhat correct, Scotty, in saying someone on 2 years of unemployment has lost his skills. I recall many years ago, I got laid off, and decided to ride the unemployment train for the summer. In September I went to a head hunter. He wasn't interested and was quite rude,saying that after 3 months on my ass I didn't show the necessary drive for him to consider me. Somehow we have to get these folks back in the work force. I doubt if the WPA and CCC would work today because of union issues etc,but paying them not to work isn't the solution, neither is abandoning them to welfare and homelessness. Pretty soon our cities will look like Rio de janiero with shanty towns everywhere. But our fine government would just send in troops and bulldoze them out. Saw that happen in Tompkins square park in New York in the 80's when the lower east side began to get gentrified and the homeless had to "be removed" Democratic mayor too.
I too doubt if I will vote for the dems in 2012, but I sure won't vote Republican either. Both parties are bought and paid for by the same behind the scenes fat cats and the American middle class is going to parted from their wealth no matter what. Thats the game plan. You can take them down with socialism or you can take them down with fascism , but down is where the fat cats want them.Nuff rant
[/quote]

That is where they need to be, the oversight is better, the control is more localized.
Agree that it's the middle class that takes the beating, but defining the middle class by some strange gross income standard is stupid. I laugh every time I hear the polit-class blabbering on about their 250K arbitrary line in the sand. The gov't didn't like the paperwork, and BS involved with people incorporating their businesses with no real stock holders, so they used the tax codes, and public law to force everyone into LLCs. Now they want to tax the LLC like an individual. It's no wonder businesses flee the country, there is nothing that can be counted on. Before they bitch about needing to shaft the LLC, sub-s crowd, lets see them eliminate the mortgage tax deduction on homes with more than 5 acres, (excluding ag property) Lets see them eliminate the Mortgage deduction on any second home, or a home more than 50 miles away from the employer, require that a wife can't claim one home, and a husband another, if they file married. There, we almost paid for an extension of the unemployment. But no, the football is going to be an arbetrary line, that effectively just forces the LLC back into a full corporation. They won't pay more, just do more paperwork-good idea? not so much. I just fell into the groove with this LLC toilet paper filing, now I gotta go back to an inc. whatever. Well, as a corp, I got to hold an officer's meeting every month-at my favorite restaurant, and a stockholder's meeting once a qtr. It was nice to be able to deduct the food, and travel. Being the only officer, and stockholder it was great! In either case, the taxes don't go up, just the amount of, and type of forms I gotta fill out. In the end, there will be zero net gain for the gov't spendaholics, but intuit is going to goon me another 100$ for the proper version of turbotax to fill out the blizzard of paperwork. What pillock thought that would be a good idea?

As for loosing skills from being unemployed, that was then, this is now. Case in point - Do you think a small mfgr is going to pick a cad/cam operator that has sat for 2 years over a recently unemployed, or fresh trade school grad? An IT position filled with someone bringing to the table, only knowledge of software 6 revisions old? I guess if you are a ditch digger, or garbage dude, 2 years won't make a difference at all; If you are in any field dealing with technological advances, you are fecked.

Socialism always devolved into an unproductive, lazy, immoral society, and utter corruption.
Facisim always devolves into National Socialisim.
That's some choice we got there!

[Skoozle]

I'm jumping in over my head here, as I'm not as politically sharp as the rest of you but here are my thoughts.

Simply speaking there are rich people and poor people depending on which side of a particular tax bracket you are on. My questions are:

Do rich people get better roads to drive on than poor people? No we all share the same roads.

Do rich people get a better education for their children in public school? No, they likely send their children to private school, thus getting no return on their education tax dollars.

Do rich people get better military protection? No, in the event of an invasion, a soldier is not going to check your W2 before saving your life.

So why do the majority of tax dollars come from the small minority of people who happen to earn more than a certain amount of money?

I do agree that we all need to contribute some money to run the country but I do not agree that we should be penalized for being successful.

If you think lazy people should be rewarded for not working then you should start a private charity for lazy people and have like minded people contribute to your charity, don’t take it out of my paycheck without my permission.

If you think everyone is entitled to health insurance, start an insurance company and make premium payments optional.

It is not the government's obligation to make these decisions, whether we elected them or not.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Skoozle' timestamp='1291914151' post='490767']
I'm jumping in over my head here, as I'm not as politically sharp as the rest of you but here are my thoughts.

Simply speaking there are rich people and poor people depending on which side of a particular tax bracket you are on. My questions are:

Do rich people get better roads to drive on than poor people? No we all share the same roads.

Yes,if you live out here, we don"t even have bridges just fords and plenty of dirt roads. When snow comes gated communities inand around Roanoke get plowed days before we see one.

Do rich people get a better education for their children in public school? No, they likely send their children to private school, thus getting no return on their education tax dollars.

True, but they have plenty of places to exercise ta x deductions.. poor people use 1040 EZ

Do rich people get better military protection? No, in the event of an invasion, a soldier is not going to check your W2 before saving your life.

Oh you bet your ass they do. If New York City got invaded how many troops do you would protect Harlem as opposed to the Upper East Side. You can bet major corporations will get protection.

So why do the majority of tax dollars come from the small minority of people who happen to earn more than a certain amount of money?

The majority of tax dollars come from us, which is why little people get audited and terrorized by the IRS. If the small taxpayer opted out, the country would collapse.

I do agree that we all need to contribute some money to run the country but I do not agree that we should be penalized for being successful.

Nobody is being penalized for success. How much money is enough anyway?

If you think lazy people should be rewarded for not working then you should start a private charity for lazy people and have like minded people contribute to your charity, don't take it out of my paycheck without my permission.

Everybody on unemployment is lazy, all welfare recipients are scamming the government,all homeless people live on the streets because they want to. There are massive abuses to the system for sure,but there are folks who sometimes need a safety net.

If you think everyone is entitled to health insurance, start an insurance company and make premium payments optional.

Affordable healthcare is what we are talking about. If Big Pharma and the AMA weren't lobbying for more money, we could handle this one. Dirt poor people get free medical care, rich people can afford adequate care, working poor are ones who suffer

It is not the government's obligation to make these decisions, whether we elected them or not.

Perhaps we should take these lazy non working sponges, unwashed masses of poor who contribute NOTHING to our society etc and send them to special little vacation places where they get special treatment.


[/quote]

[Skoozle]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1291927365' post='490784']
[quote name='Skoozle' timestamp='1291914151' post='490767']
[color="#8b0000"]I'm jumping in over my head here, as I'm not as politically sharp as the rest of you but here are my thoughts.

Simply speaking there are rich people and poor people depending on which side of a particular tax bracket you are on. My questions are:

Do rich people get better roads to drive on than poor people? No we all share the same roads.[/color]

Yes, if you live out here, we don't even have bridges just fords and plenty of dirt roads. When snow comes gated communities in and around Roanoke get plowed days before we see one.



[color="#8b0000"] First of all, our fancy big city roads are open to anyone regardless of your address or income level, just as your dirt roads are available to anyone from the city. Like I said, we all share the same roads. Compare a mile of your dirt roads to a mile of I-495. At a cost of about $120000 to pave a single lane for one mile, doesn't it make sense to pave a road that sees 150000-250000 cars a day as opposed to a road that sees maybe 100 cars a day?

As for snow removal, the same strategy applies, work first where it can do the most good. The exception is in the gated and planned communities where the snow removal is performed by a private contractor paid for by home owners' association fees, not taxes. This is a perfect example of a small group of people pooling their money together for a common goal providing a better result than the government can provide; this is how it should be.[/color]


[color="#8b0000"]Do rich people get a better education for their children in public school? No, they likely send their children to private school, thus getting no return on their education tax dollars.[/color]

True, but they have plenty of places to exercise ta x deductions.. poor people use 1040 EZ<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

[color="#8b0000"] These tax deductions come after a tax payer's itemized deductions exceed the minimum deduction afforded to everyone. When a taxpayer has not earned a substantial amount of tax deductions, the government kindly gives them a minimum tax deduction. This seems to be a recurring theme.
[/color]


[color="#8b0000"]Do rich people get better military protection? No, in the event of an invasion, a soldier is not going to check your W2 before saving your life.
[/color]
Oh you bet your ass they do. If New York City got invaded how many troops do you would protect Harlem as opposed to the Upper East Side. You can bet major corporations will get protection.



[color="#8b0000"]Of course we have no facts to back up either argument here, but again, I would suspect that population density and likely targets would be the deciding factor and the goal would be minimizing casualties, I honestly doubt per capita income would drive the military strategy. I belive you were in the military, so if you tell me I'm wrong here, I'll take your word.

[/color]
[color="#8b0000"]So why do the majority of tax dollars come from the small minority of people who happen to earn more than a certain amount of money?[/color]

The majority of tax dollars come from us, which is why little people get audited and terrorized by the IRS. If the small taxpayer opted out, the country would collapse.



[color="#8b0000"]1/3 of all individual income taxes are paid by the top 1% of income earners 95% of all individual income taxes are paid by the top 50% of income earners

[/color][color="#8b0000"]I do agree that we all need to contribute some money to run the country but I do not agree that we should be penalized for being successful.[/color]

Nobody is being penalized for success.

[color="#8b0000"]Then why does a surgeon, airline pilot or business owner pay more in taxes than most people earn in 6 months?
[/color]
How much money is enough anyway?

[color="#8b0000"] Enough money is what it cost to shelter and feed your family, but that is survival, not success.
[/color]
[color="#8b0000"]If you think lazy people should be rewarded for not working then you should start a private charity for lazy people and have like minded people contribute to your charity, don't take it out of my paycheck without my permission.
[/color]
Everybody on unemployment is lazy, all welfare recipients are scamming the government,all homeless people live on the streets because they want to. There are massive abuses to the system for sure,but there are folks who sometimes need a safety net.



[color="#8b0000"] Sure people need help sometimes but why spend trillions of dollars helping anyone and everyone who doesn't want to fill out a McApplication while very little of the money goes to people who truly need a helping hand. If welfare and unemployment were run like a corporation who needs to turn a profit to keep the doors open, the massive abuses to the system would be cut out quickly.

If you think everyone is entitled to health insurance, start an insurance company and make premium payments optional.
[/color]
Affordable healthcare is what we are talking about. If Big Pharma and the AMA weren't lobbying for more money, we could handle this one. Dirt poor people get free medical care, rich people can afford adequate care, working poor are ones who suffer.



[color="#8b0000"] I have always managed to get insurance coverage, pay for my treatment, or stay healthy. So I really don't have a bunch of information on this one, however, I doubt that the Constitution sais anywhere that the government should open and run an insurance company.

It is not the government's obligation to make these decisions, whether we elected them or not.
[/color]
Perhaps we should take these lazy non working sponges, unwashed masses of poor who contribute NOTHING to our society etc and send them to special little vacation places where they get special treatment.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

[color="#8b0000"]Or perhaps we should just stop enabling leaches to take advantage of the system so that there are resources available to those who truly need help and the rest of us can prosper.
[/color]
[/quote]
[/quote]<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"> Edited December 10, 2010 by Skoozle

[mustafabey]

What about trillions of dollars to bail out the banks and wall street, thats OK but helping the poor isn't? Common sense not political rhetoric is whats needed here. Kudos to the politicians for their great brainwashing techiques. I voted for "hope and change" and Skoozle believes in the rich. Oh well.

[Skoozle]

No, I never said that was OK either. Bailing out banks, Wall St., car companies or any other corporation for that matter is complete BS. If they can't make their numbers, let them go down in flames, or get bought out by a successful company.

The government has no business investing my money in a proven failure.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want any unfair advantages given to people who earn more than a certain amount of money, just a level playing field. We don't like it when the ref. calls unfair penalties on the team that is ahead, do we?

I give Uncle Sam X% of my paycheck every two weeks and trust him to take care of basic services that the government has a constitutional obligation to perform, but instead, he goes and blows it on bad bets and handouts. If that’s what is going to happen just let me keep it with the stipulation that I have at least one good weekend in Vegas every year. I'd rather spend my money on roulette and strippers than failing companies and drug dealers.

I wouldn't say I'm brainwashed. Just because I'm not over there on the left with you, doesn't mean the republicans are getting my vote.

While you're hoping in one hand take a moment to consider what's going on in the other hand. I think it takes more than a cute catch phrase to run a country.

Yes, I do believe in the rich, I also believe in the poor. Both groups exist.

More importantly, I trust that hard work will get you into the group you want to be in.

[mustafabey]

Well ya know Skoozle,one thing is we both love our country enough to know something must be done. And there's the fact that we can even have this discussion in public forum. I am no democrat, thats for sure. Different interests power each one. The right's deep in oil, for instance and the left has treehuggers. Both want to advance and its far easier with government support. The people don't decide,congress doesn't decide, lobbys decide, money decides.And its now rotten to the core and if nobody does anything its going to go down like the World trade centers did. Obama talked the talk, he got bought out, apparently real cheap,too.Tea Party thinkers and people like Rand Paul make alot of sense, but the Republican machine is buying off the Tea Party. Same old tools, fear and hate. The other day Larry Summers said if the tax compromise didn't go thru we'd be looking at double dip recession. Now that was republican slogan in august, dems always said it would never happen.Palin go into the fray and mentioned cuts and the oh so terrible death boards. more fear. meanwhile we bicker and China is getting all oil, resources and the military to make a run superpower status.
Maybe that might be good, a cold war will pick up the economy and provide all the hate we need, get out the old yellow peril rhetoric.
No matter what Skoozle,something has to be done and we have our opinions bases on where we get our news. I'm not saying Fox MSNBC thing. get on the internet and look at BBC,al Jazeera, Reuters. Stories that don't get on our news.But OK ,al Jazeera isn't exactly loving the USA but its a balance. Even some of the opinion makes you think. We American's live in a bubble, more interested in Kim Kardashians breasts than the situation in Afghanistan.
Trouble is we all have complaints but apparently no one has answers. And, is our government broke beyond a great leader. Nobody in the pack of presidential hopefuls,wannabes, Hillary, Bill etc is the kind of leader we need. Some one that doesn't take any shit and isn't in someones pocket, if thats possible

[Skoozle]

I concur.

Unfortunately, it seems impossible for a person to get to the point where they can have even a slim chance of being elected president without becoming corrupt along the way; much less getting enough clean politicians into office to make a difference.

To further complicate the issue, even if he existed, this clean politician we are all looking for would have a tough time even getting his name out without campaign contributions from the puppet masters.

While we may have very different ideals about what a working government should do, it is true that we have to fix our broken government before any of that is relevant.

I suggest that, since the government keeps screwing up the things they are trying to handle, we don't let them handle so much.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Skoozle' timestamp='1292022433' post='490922']
I concur.

Unfortunately, it seems impossible for a person to get to the point where they can have even a slim chance of being elected president without becoming corrupt along the way; much less getting enough clean politicians into office to make a difference.

To further complicate the issue, even if he existed, this clean politician we are all looking for would have a tough time even getting his name out without campaign contributions from the puppet masters.

While we may have very different ideals about what a working government should do, it is true that we have to fix our broken government before any of that is relevant.

I suggest that, since the government keeps screwing up the things they are trying to handle, we don't let them handle so much.


[/quote]

I guess that means smaller government, which is great idea, but it also means privatization, some of which I am against. If you privatize basic service, those service will tend, in an unregulated market and stable economy, to get more costly. I am afraid we are creating a vast underclass, the long time unemployed, paid not to work rather than retrained. Those without health insurance caught between the gap of the insured and Medicare. I don't advocate cradle to grave socialism which as European experience is showing, doesn't work. Freemarket capitalism is on its last legs,its a self devouring beast and seems bent on relieving the Middle Class of their wealth. We need new systems of economy,new systems of government, new myths and new gods. The 21st century will prove to be very interesting as all these factors ripen, coupled with enviromental and energy problems, water shortages,food shortages and an increase in world population,its going be a roller coaster ride.

[Rani]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]I've been watching the discussion, and I have a couple salient points I think.....

1) Yes, Scotsman, people with absolutely no income and no money spend $200 on drugs instead of $20 for food. Sure. Your assumption that the long term unemployed are wasting money that will show up on a drug test is just plain illogical and shows your bias towards those less fortunate that yourself. Not everyone chases the almighty buck their entire lives, and these are the people treated with contempt by most CEO's despite the fact that without employees, you don't have a business.[/size][/font]

2) If you're not hiring the long term unemployed, in some industries, you're not hiring. Construction and manufacturing have laid off more than 40% of it's workers. That would include the ditch diggers you have such contempt for. And without which you wouldn't have a road, or a sewer system, or electricity, or food on your table. So get over yourself. Paper pushing is not a competitive sport and you will not go down in history for any great accomplishments.

3) I'm sorry but Mustafabey is correct. Wealth gets all the privilege in this country. Police protection IS better in affluent neighborhoods. There ARE more fire stations. The roads ARE better and people ARE better educated. Nobody objects to that guy over there being wealthy and doing the best for his family. What the working poor object to is that the wealthy have become so unbelievably greedy that they are try to keep anyone from potentially reaching their status. You think corporations moved all labor oversees because it's easier to communicate? No, it would be because by reducing labor costs to a fraction increases their personal wealth while destroying the middle class. It would seem they're working against themselves because eventually there won't be any middle class to buy their goods and services, but in reality, they won't much care. They're simply move all their assets overseas and retire. Who cares about rioting in the streets if you're on a beach in the Bahamas?

4) This nation was FOUNDED on taking care of each other. Right from the first starving winter when the natives helped the immigrants survive. If you don't think we should be supporting our poor and long-term unemployed, you're in the wrong country. Go find one founded on greed and only looking out for yourself. 1930's Germany springs to mind but hey, there are a few still out there. And before Scotsman throws around the word socialism once again, remember that we have a completely successful socialist system working in this country for the past hundred plus years. It's called the US military. It's an exact and near perfect model of socialism, all the way from base pay and benefits, all the way up the ladder to experience allowing for increased revenue and benefits per household. . And the last time I checked, they were someone to be respected and emulated. NOT used as some scary word thrown around to make people be scared. " Ewwww! Taking care of others is SOCIALISM!!! Run for your lives." Uncontrolled capitalism has ALWAYS failed. Check your history.

5) Nothing escapes the fact that our politicians, ALL OUR POLITICIANS are playing games with peoples lives for their personal agendas. It's disgusting, and it's bordering on criminal. And the fact that we just keep putting up with it astonishes me. Try getting lost outside your own neighborhood once in a while. You might be surprised to see housing, yards and children all identical to most third world countries. Roads so narrow you couldn't get a fire truck through if there's even one car parked on the street. Houses in disrepair. No services to speak of. Police who avoid the downtrodden neighborhood. The wealthiest nation on earth and we treat the majority of our people like dirt while we let our politicians pursue personal wealth and power. We all need to be ashamed of ourselves for allowing it.

End of rant.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

It has been said of current times that this represents the greatest transfer of wealth from the Middle classes in history. But I truly understand,its getting hard for everyone. what with the Iran sanctions caviar has gone up,Dom Perignon has always been costly but now its really expensive, Lamborghinis cost $300,000 and I know you can't just have one. Victorias secret has a million dollar bra to hold your plastic boobs, and you need a fresh one daily. Then there's housing. I mean a cardboard box is fine for most of us, but I have to sympathize with John McCain, it must be terrible not to know how many houses you have. Fifth Ave,Beverly Hill, Mailbu, Palm Beach,Doha for when it all collapses,Hong Kong and Tokyo(OK these are apartments so maybe they don't count. The only suggestion I make for you privledged Lords is that maybe you can change the colors on the ramen noodle wrappers to red,white and blue, call them patriot noodles(remember freedom fries) and put pics of our founding fathers on the cellophane, like Rush and Glenn and Sarah. I know its going to cost more for these changes and the price will go up from $.25 to $49.99 per package, but thats ok I can sell you my children, they work hard and hardly eat any ramen. Thank you, sirs the rent for my hovel is in the mail.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1292106220' post='490998']
It has been said of current times that this represents the greatest transfer of wealth from the Middle classes in history. But I truly understand,its getting hard for everyone. what with the Iran sanctions caviar has gone up,Dom Perignon has always been costly but now its really expensive, Lamborghinis cost $300,000 and I know you can't just have one. Victorias secret has a million dollar bra to hold your plastic boobs, and you need a fresh one daily. Then there's housing. I mean a cardboard box is fine for most of us, but I have to sympathize with John McCain, it must be terrible not to know how many houses you have. Fifth Ave,Beverly Hill, Mailbu, Palm Beach,Doha for when it all collapses,Hong Kong and Tokyo(OK these are apartments so maybe they don't count. The only suggestion I make for you privledged Lords is that maybe you can change the colors on the ramen noodle wrappers to red,white and blue, call them patriot noodles(remember freedom fries) and put pics of our founding fathers on the cellophane, like Rush and Glenn and Sarah. I know its going to cost more for these changes and the price will go up from $.25 to $49.99 per package, but thats ok I can sell you my children, they work hard and hardly eat any ramen. Thank you, sirs the rent for my hovel is in the mail.
[/quote]

Your liberal bias, and cheezy class warfare/jealousy is showing...... again.
Your tirade of dem speaking points missed that fine charlie "da house" rangle, not only did he forget about a villa south of the border, he neglected to pay income tax on it. (and he was on what comittee again, refresh my memory, what laws did they write, Wait, I remember-TAX laws.) Or maybe you neglected chris "i need a mortgage" dodd, Hell, countrywide paid him to take a loan, He was chairman of what again???? Oh, yes, the BANKING committee. Hmmm, But wait! There are more! How about kent conrad, from ND, Countrywide handed him a negative interest loan too.... He was chairman of the finance comittee. THere was a HUD sec, in there somewhere, but I am too lazy to look it up, and the name has slipped my mind. But they were all rich-ass DEMOCRAT/progressive politicians. What is the ratio of rich dems to repubs in congress? Who knows, they are all lying anyway, but accouding to the huff & puff, there are more fat billfolds in the dem party (www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/31/the-wealthiest-lawmakers_n_700821.html#s132909)

But hell, ya, lets show some jealousy, and envy against people that earned their money by working for it in an open market. Ignore the corrupt liberal bastages in politics, then try to crucify a damn radio blabber-face? That is quite fecked up, you do know that, right?


Gotta quit listening to that NPR propaganda, they are eating up your brains faster than a stadium full of angry-white-upper-class-zombies.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1292125326' post='491017']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1292106220' post='490998']
It has been said of current times that this represents the greatest transfer of wealth from the Middle classes in history. But I truly understand,its getting hard for everyone. what with the Iran sanctions caviar has gone up,Dom Perignon has always been costly but now its really expensive, Lamborghinis cost $300,000 and I know you can't just have one. Victorias secret has a million dollar bra to hold your plastic boobs, and you need a fresh one daily. Then there's housing. I mean a cardboard box is fine for most of us, but I have to sympathize with John McCain, it must be terrible not to know how many houses you have. Fifth Ave,Beverly Hill, Mailbu, Palm Beach,Doha for when it all collapses,Hong Kong and Tokyo(OK these are apartments so maybe they don't count. The only suggestion I make for you privledged Lords is that maybe you can change the colors on the ramen noodle wrappers to red,white and blue, call them patriot noodles(remember freedom fries) and put pics of our founding fathers on the cellophane, like Rush and Glenn and Sarah. I know its going to cost more for these changes and the price will go up from $.25 to $49.99 per package, but thats ok I can sell you my children, they work hard and hardly eat any ramen. Thank you, sirs the rent for my hovel is in the mail.
[/quote]

Your liberal bias, and cheezy class warfare/jealousy is showing...... again.
Your tirade of dem speaking points missed that fine charlie "da house" rangle, not only did he forget about a villa south of the border, he neglected to pay income tax on it. (and he was on what comittee again, refresh my memory, what laws did they write, Wait, I remember-TAX laws.) Or maybe you neglected chris "i need a mortgage" dodd, Hell, countrywide paid him to take a loan, He was chairman of what again???? Oh, yes, the BANKING committee. Hmmm, But wait! There are more! How about kent conrad, from ND, Countrywide handed him a negative interest loan too.... He was chairman of the finance comittee. THere was a HUD sec, in there somewhere, but I am too lazy to look it up, and the name has slipped my mind. But they were all rich-ass DEMOCRAT/progressive politicians. What is the ratio of rich dems to repubs in congress? Who knows, they are all lying anyway, but accouding to the huff & puff, there are more fat billfolds in the dem party (www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/31/the-wealthiest-lawmakers_n_700821.html#s132909)

But hell, ya, lets show some jealousy, and envy against people that earned their money by working for it in an open market. Ignore the corrupt liberal bastages in politics, then try to crucify a damn radio blabber-face? That is quite fecked up, you do know that, right?


Gotta quit listening to that NPR propaganda, they are eating up your brains faster than a stadium full of angry-white-upper-class-zombies.
[/quote]

I fear we are both guilty to some degree of having our brains eaten by various propagandas. I was trying to be sarcastic and cute in my post, much like your sarcasm of altering peoples names...Obambi, Pee-losi etc. I guess that shows our anger. I am no fan of the Rangels and Dodds and others of either party that abuse our system and get away with it. I heard yesterday of a veteran in a wheelchair who held up a bank with a toy gun and got 21 years. Mr Rangel isn't going to do time. I am a liberal and a proud one,Scotty. I believe man has a duty to take care of those less fortunate. I don't believe everyone can become a millionaire thru hard work. The founders of the major religions all stressed the need to take care of the poor. I believe it is one of the ultimate signs of civilization. My amazement comes at how docile the average man is as he loses his security. What's going to happen to those whose unemployment runs out, and surely after Jan 1st there will be no more extensions. What happens to these people? Do they wind up slipping thru the cracks and becoming homeless. No one, Dems, Repubs,liberals, conservatives is talking about any kind of job creation legislation. Private businesses have pared down after layoffs, become more efficient and are wary of more economic downturns. They are not about to bloat there payrolls, today its easier to make your workers produce more. I have friends in shitty jobs who are terrified to quit because they know nothing is out there. An article on CNN.com said a bachelor's degree these days gets you an internship. People will work free just to gain experience to be competitive in a tight job market. Meanwhile, our prime rival in the world, China is creating green jobs while we,slaves of the oil barons cling to outmoded and depreciating energy sources. China's already gobbled up Turkmenistan and Sudan's energy resources. It was intersting to see who sided with Chinese and refused to attend the Nobel Prize ceremony. Gee, our dear friend Pakistan, recipient of billions in American aid.Once Scotty, you admitted to being an old fart, too. Perhaps we should consider ourselves lucky that we'll be pushing daisies when the house of cards collapses. And it appears that under either political party that fate, if not imminent is certainly possible.Everyone is interested in their own special agendas and not America's. And the people are being force fed a diet of hate, fear and slogans. That can't last forever.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1292125326' post='491017']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1292106220' post='490998']
It has been said of current times that this represents the greatest transfer of wealth from the Middle classes in history. But I truly understand,its getting hard for everyone. what with the Iran sanctions caviar has gone up,Dom Perignon has always been costly but now its really expensive, Lamborghinis cost $300,000 and I know you can't just have one. Victorias secret has a million dollar bra to hold your plastic boobs, and you need a fresh one daily. Then there's housing. I mean a cardboard box is fine for most of us, but I have to sympathize with John McCain, it must be terrible not to know how many houses you have. Fifth Ave,Beverly Hill, Mailbu, Palm Beach,Doha for when it all collapses,Hong Kong and Tokyo(OK these are apartments so maybe they don't count. The only suggestion I make for you privledged Lords is that maybe you can change the colors on the ramen noodle wrappers to red,white and blue, call them patriot noodles(remember freedom fries) and put pics of our founding fathers on the cellophane, like Rush and Glenn and Sarah. I know its going to cost more for these changes and the price will go up from $.25 to $49.99 per package, but thats ok I can sell you my children, they work hard and hardly eat any ramen. Thank you, sirs the rent for my hovel is in the mail.
[/quote]

Your liberal bias, and cheezy class warfare/jealousy is showing...... again.
Your tirade of dem speaking points missed that fine charlie "da house" rangle, not only did he forget about a villa south of the border, he neglected to pay income tax on it. (and he was on what comittee again, refresh my memory, what laws did they write, Wait, I remember-TAX laws.) Or maybe you neglected chris "i need a mortgage" dodd, Hell, countrywide paid him to take a loan, He was chairman of what again???? Oh, yes, the BANKING committee. Hmmm, But wait! There are more! How about kent conrad, from ND, Countrywide handed him a negative interest loan too.... He was chairman of the finance comittee. THere was a HUD sec, in there somewhere, but I am too lazy to look it up, and the name has slipped my mind. But they were all rich-ass DEMOCRAT/progressive politicians. What is the ratio of rich dems to repubs in congress? Who knows, they are all lying anyway, but accouding to the huff & puff, there are more fat billfolds in the dem party (www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/31/the-wealthiest-lawmakers_n_700821.html#s132909)

But hell, ya, lets show some jealousy, and envy against people that earned their money by working for it in an open market. Ignore the corrupt liberal bastages in politics, then try to crucify a damn radio blabber-face? That is quite fecked up, you do know that, right?


Gotta quit listening to that NPR propaganda, they are eating up your brains faster than a stadium full of angry-white-upper-class-zombies.
[/quote]

Here we go again. Do you feel the need to plump up your ego by assuming people are jealous of your success? Nobody cares if the rich get richer. Nobody much cares if you do. What people care about is that global wealth builders are destroying the middle class entirely and blocking them from ever advancing to "the American dream". The conglomerate wealthy in this country are very clearly shoving anyone not currently a part of their class towards serfdom. THAT is what those damn progressives object to. Becoming impoverished slaves to the wealthy. Go figure.

'Rani