Insurance Mandate Got Tossed By Fed Judge

[TheScotsman]

1501 mandate to buy insurance declared unconstitutional by fed Judge. Commerce clause does not apply to a requirement to buy something. Duh, not like we didn't know that. No gov't power to force purchase of insurance, the rest of the 2500 pages is just so much toilet paper. Effectively destroys the law, and sets a president for all the other cases against the Obummer admin. In any case, BHO, and the demos are going to have to call it a tax, and require it under the power of taxation, and preside over both the 1st, and second largest tax increases on the American people, or the wicked witch is dead. Frankly, I would love to see them declare it a tax, and become the final nail in the progressive's coffin.

Rare to see a federal judge actually side with the constitution. Obviously the case wasn't in the 9th circus courts.

[HookahLover25]

Cool, maybe now the government can't force me to acquire insurance to drive my car.

[Rani]

[quote name='HookahLover25' timestamp='1292267833' post='491152']
Cool, maybe now the government can't force me to acquire insurance to drive my car.
[/quote]

That's why the ruling will be tossed. A can of worms they don't want to open. What's more, Scotsman is gloating prematurely. We always knew it was going to head for the US Supreme Court. Greed still prevails in this country under the guise of "I don't want them telling me what to do". It's a straw argument. Taxes, the draft, prohibition, tobacco bans, car insurance, the Patriot Act, and going immediately to the no-fly list if you refuse to walk through a radiation scanner. Oh, yeah, heath care is the one thing they're telling us we HAVE to do.

'Rani

[noodle]

[quote name='HookahLover25' timestamp='1292267833' post='491152']
Cool, maybe now the government can't force me to acquire insurance to drive my car.
[/quote]

The big difference with forcing you to get car insurance isn't so much requiring you to have insurance, but requiring you to be able to compensate the other guy if you cause a crash. If you're fantastically wealthy, you could self-insure, that is, pay straight out of pocket. Joe Blow doesn't have a few hundred thousand dollars in liquid assets lying around. That's why insurance is sold.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1292268319' post='491153']
[quote name='HookahLover25' timestamp='1292267833' post='491152']
Cool, maybe now the government can't force me to acquire insurance to drive my car.
[/quote]

That's why the ruling will be tossed. A can of worms they don't want to open. What's more, Scotsman is gloating prematurely. We always knew it was going to head for the US Supreme Court. Greed still prevails in this country under the guise of "I don't want them telling me what to do". It's a straw argument. Taxes, the draft, prohibition, tobacco bans, car insurance, the Patriot Act, and going immediately to the no-fly list if you refuse to walk through a radiation scanner. Oh, yeah, heath care is the one thing they're telling us we HAVE to do.

'Rani
[/quote]

Yes,you are right but unless there is a miracle and the democrats can show as much solidarity as the GOP did in the opposition,and Obama get re elected, the thing is doomed. It's once again giving to the middle class. Like unemployement, social security,Medicaid/care, etc. Those are monies the elite have decided that they want, since pretty much they have everything else. Middle class wealth represent an awful lot of dinero. In the old days if the royals got greedy they always went after the Jews. Its the same thing,fiscally, they are going to appropriate it. Look at the "compromise" tax cut thing, its a hell of alot more than the rich get extensions and the poor get unemployemt, If you examine it, there are changes to the estate tax that favor the rich,there are all kinds of new breaks on business taxes.The unemployed get $57 billion,Rich Uncle Pennybags gets the rest... at a cost of over $800 billion...added to the deficit. Gee sound familiar another 800 bil, like the the bailout and stimulus packages. Yes sir Ladies and Gentlemen(trumpet fanfare) we got fucked out another 800 bil again,during an election. Thats three times in 3 years, whats next government pensions, veteran's hospitals.
Oh well the Brits are going this shit too,but apparently they are aware there getting reemed, Charles and Camilla got roughed up a bit whilst out in the Rolls and off to the theatre. Quite

[Venger]

You can choose not to drive a car. You are only expected to buy it to cover liability as said before. You do not have a choice (well kinda) of being alive or not.So there is no way to "opt out" or not drive as it were.We should focus on lowering the cost of health care and stop arguing about who is going to pay for it.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1292438683' post='491433']
You can choose not to drive a car. You are only expected to buy it to cover liability as said before. You do not have a choice (well kinda) of being alive or not.So there is no way to "opt out" or not drive as it were.We should focus on lowering the cost of health care and stop arguing about who is going to pay for it.
Ray
[/quote]

You bet. Of all industrial nations, we have the highest cost of health care, and the lowest life expectancy. That alone should be the warning that there is something wrong with our system, and while we're busy caught up with stamping our feet over "they're gonna make me" and "I don't wanna pay anything", we've lost sight of the actual crisis that exists with our health care. The fact that it, as a whole, sucks. That includes everything from the way preexisting conditions are treated all the way through the malpractice attorneys making money chasing ambulances.

'Rani

[avielth]

Health care in the US does not suck. In fact, it is probably the best in the world. We have more of the best doctors and best medicine available than almost anywhere. The real problem with it.. of course.. is the cost. I won't argue that it is not an issue. I have insurance through my work, so I can't really carry the perspective of someone without health insurance. I know people without health care, who could pay for it, but don't. The amount of money that they spend on non-essential items on a bi-weekly basis (alchohol, cigarettes, daily dining out, etc) could pay for basic health care. There are a lot of people out there like that. Again.. I do not argue that it needs to be more affordable. I work for an independent health insurance company and I know how absurdly expensive things are on all-sides of it.

There are ways to work down the cost of healthcare to move it into a more "affordable" range. If we had a little more control over frivolous malpractice suits and regulation of the kings ransom drug companies are allowed to extort, then you could see a considerable drop in costs. I don't have the research to back this up available to me right now, but there is some truth to this. From working on the health insurance side, the administration cost is enormous... the amount of paperwork and complication involved to even get the most simple thing does drives up that cost too.

I'll post back when I have some 'facts' to reference.

[Rani]

[quote name='avielth' timestamp='1294274268' post='493500']
Health care in the US does not suck. In fact, it is probably the best in the world. We have more of the best doctors and best medicine available than almost anywhere. The real problem with it.. of course.. is the cost. I won't argue that it is not an issue. I have insurance through my work, so I can't really carry the perspective of someone without health insurance. I know people without health care, who could pay for it, but don't. The amount of money that they spend on non-essential items on a bi-weekly basis (alchohol, cigarettes, daily dining out, etc) could pay for basic health care. There are a lot of people out there like that. Again.. I do not argue that it needs to be more affordable. I work for an independent health insurance company and I know how absurdly expensive things are on all-sides of it.

There are ways to work down the cost of healthcare to move it into a more "affordable" range. If we had a little more control over frivolous malpractice suits and regulation of the kings ransom drug companies are allowed to extort, then you could see a considerable drop in costs. I don't have the research to back this up available to me right now, but there is some truth to this. From working on the health insurance side, the administration cost is enormous... the amount of paperwork and complication involved to even get the most simple thing does drives up that cost too.

I'll post back when I have some 'facts' to reference.
[/quote]

Obviously you have not had reason to visit a doctor outside the US. While surgical and cosmetic techniques are top of the line here in the US, standard everyday health care is abysmal compared to the Netherlands, Japan, Spain and Canada just as my personal examples. I've visited a doctor is every one of those nations, and I guarantee you, they're way ahead of us in average health care. Our entire system is bad by comparison, and it desperately needs reform. And in case anyone wants to keep quoting the cost of health care reform, it's actually designed to reduce the deficit by more than $1 trillion by 2016. Not such a bad deal.

'Rani
'Rani

[TheScotsman]

There is a BS flag on Rani's statement.

If it is so great there, why does every dignitary, Canadian VIP, and anyone else in need of real top-notch care come to the USA?


Hint: It's not for the chance to listen to the liberal-bias propaganda.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1294365578' post='493632']
There is a BS flag on Rani's statement.

If it is so great there, why does every dignitary, Canadian VIP, and anyone else in need of real top-notch care come to the USA?


Hint: It's not for the chance to listen to the liberal-bias propaganda.
[/quote]

Nope, they come here only for relative new surgical techniques which I said in my statement we're top notch with. Not for regular medical treatment. I stand by my statement. But then again if I said the sky is blue you'd insist it's purple. Such is the nature of "our relationship" , 'cuz we all know you have to keep up the conservative propaganda.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Oh yeah, was listing to Glenn Beck the other day,death panels are back, most definitely back, they'll be picking up grandma any day now. Keep telling em over and over again the same lie and they believe it,but then may of these fine citizens believe man and dinosaurs arrived 6000 years ago The very last word in science, Archbishop Ussher 1654

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294371967' post='493643']
Oh yeah, was listing to Glenn Beck the other day,death panels are back, most definitely back, they'll be picking up grandma any day now. Keep telling em over and over again the same lie and they believe it,but then may of these fine citizens believe man and dinosaurs arrived 6000 years ago The very last word in science, Archbishop Ussher 1654
[/quote]

You know what I really find funny about the con-propaganda? As of January 1st, senior citizens that formerly fell into the Part D "donut hole" will now only pay 50% of their former prescription costs. No child can be denied coverage for existing conditions. Percentages paid of Medicare coverages have risen and essentially reduced the co-pay. A heath insurance expert wrote an article for the Los Angeles Times right after the passage and he deduced that the Health Care Reform bill would be reduce costs so dramatically for those households already covered, that it would be as though every single one of those households got a $8,000 a year raise. Seniors who were lied to and frightened are now coming around to realizing that HCR gave them a whole lot more for a whole lot less costs out of pocket. A friend of mine who has paid $400 a month for private coverage because he believed good heath care was much more important than a new car every couple years, was shaking his head the other day and says he's going to get so much more out of his coverage that he can actually reduce it and get the same benefit. And he admits the main reason he's shaking his head because he'd previously bought into the lies and scare tactics! Sorry, all you gullible conservatives and GOP shills..........I'm not remotely an expert, but the people actually being effected as it kicks in bit by bit are changing their minds dramatically. HCR wasn't all we needed it to be, but as John Q Public is only now discovering as it goes into effect, it was one great big leap in the right direction.

Now if they could just do something about the damned ambulance chasers.........

'Rani

[Rani]

And on a parting shot I can't resist....... I'm sick and tired of "conservatives" throwing around the world liberal like it's a racial slur especially when it comes to human services interests like heath care. The list of liberals who actually cared for their fellow man include Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr., and on and on. LIBERALS, the people who actually care about others and don't have a problem with the taxes they pay out of their pockets, (certainly more than the average business owner), being spent on human services, like health care. LIBERALS will inherit the earth, because quite frankly we're the only ones who give a damn. "Conservatives" are too busy raping and pillaging in homage to their own self-interest to take care of any part of the earth or it's inhabitants

The only thing you can take to the grave out of all you accumulate in your lifetime is the state of your soul and the legacy you leave behind you. I choose my legacy to be that I actually gave a damn about people other than myself. There is a sweetness to knowing that the state of people heath will be improved because someone actually gave a damn. So kiss my gorgeous fluffy liberal ass.


'Rani

[TheScotsman]

trying to drag race into it. That is the liberal version of the nuclear-option of any discussion. Doesn't work anymore, no one is afraid of it, and trying such a lame, and obvious ploy demonstrates the lunacy of your point of view.

ever deeper into the mire of liberal-wacoisim we go! You got to the race card... come on, let's get at least one mention of hitler from the liberal side--I just won't feel complete until I get it.

The same nuts that tear the Aseret ha-dibrot, nativities, or any mention of a judeo-christian origin out of any public place will try to claim religious garments when the are trying to conceal their beliefs from criticism.

pot, mao, stalin, wilson, the American Eugenics movement, Kim Jong-Il, Ho Chi-Minh, Kim Il-Sung, Guaevara, Leinin... all also far left liberals--in case you forgot to include them. Although, when one considers the millions of their own citizens that the, and their liberal-commie-Marxist gov'ts murdered, I can understand your reluctance to include them in your glory-worship list.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1294375328' post='493660']
And on a parting shot I can't resist....... I'm sick and tired of "conservatives" throwing around the world liberal like it's a racial slur especially when it comes to human services interests like heath care. The list of liberals who actually cared for their fellow man include Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr., and on and on. LIBERALS, the people who actually care about others and don't have a problem with the taxes they pay out of their pockets, (certainly more than the average business owner), being spent on human services, like health care. LIBERALS will inherit the earth, because quite frankly we're the only ones who give a damn. "Conservatives" are too busy raping and pillaging in homage to their own self-interest to take care of any part of the earth or it's inhabitants

The only thing you can take to the grave out of all you accumulate in your lifetime is the state of your soul and the legacy you leave behind you. I choose my legacy to be that I actually gave a damn about people other than myself. There is a sweetness to knowing that the state of people heath will be improved because someone actually gave a damn. So kiss my gorgeous fluffy liberal ass.


'Rani
[/quote]

Yes, I find the identification of liberal as something evil quite disturbing. Scotsman uses the phrase " liberal-commie-Marxist" which is a perfect example of the way conservative propaganda works. One could use such logic to describe the right as "conservative-facist-Nazi". Conservatives are not nazis and liberals are not commies. See, commie is great word to use in propaganda because most of the baby boomer generation has heard the word "commie" used to represent an enemy. Even though Communism is essentially dead and buried, these hate mongers can still incite fears. Listen to Beck, he advocates sinking your hard earned money into gold(its already dropping) buying a years worth of freeze dried food so survive the collapse and,most recently hawking "non-hybrid seeds" to plant your survival garden. As Glenn Beck is such a supporter of what he calls "American entrepreneurship",one imagines he owns a large share of these vampirical companies. One problem the right is going to have to solve is which agenda it is going to push. The right is an umbrella that covers quite a few different philosophies.The libertarians, with there support of small government, the fundamentalists with a desire to impose thier morality on everyone,the tea party who sees corruption in government,the(reaching in my back pocket to pull out my race card, which I keep right next to my shocking pink commie party card) white supremacists who see a Black man in the White house and an army of Mexican rapists on the border, and of course the funders of the conservatives the old military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about. That all is going to crack into pieces as the 500 or so republican presidentail hopefuls do battle.
I think what amazes me most is the sheer ignorance of the American people who buy into conservative propaganda. They get there news from Fox,Beck,Limbaugh et al. Infact its hard to find truth anymore in the American news media. These people are not so different from another group of conservatives who wish for the good old days. While conservatives ground their fantasies in the 50's(noble freedom loving Americans battling the evil empire,a car in ever garage and Blacks in the back of the bus), the Islamic fundamnetalists like the Taliban yearn for the 7th century days of the Prophet. Really not much difference there, both deny progress,human rights, scientific discovery and modernism in general. While the American Taliban works hard to focus the public on such important issues as gay marriage,the fraud of global warming and the dangers of evolution, China has grabbed up all the new oil being produced in this world. While we sit our expensive military around half dry oil wells in the Middle East, China has secured oil enough to propel them into global super power status. Nice going, patriots.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1294380394' post='493677']
trying to drag race into it. That is the liberal version of the nuclear-option of any discussion. Doesn't work anymore, no one is afraid of it, and trying such a lame, and obvious ploy demonstrates the lunacy of your point of view.

ever deeper into the mire of liberal-wacoisim we go! You got to the race card... come on, let's get at least one mention of hitler from the liberal side--I just won't feel complete until I get it.

The same nuts that tear the Aseret ha-dibrot, nativities, or any mention of a judeo-christian origin out of any public place will try to claim religious garments when the are trying to conceal their beliefs from criticism.

pot, mao, stalin, wilson, the American Eugenics movement, Kim Jong-Il, Ho Chi-Minh, Kim Il-Sung, Guaevara, Leinin... all also far left liberals--in case you forgot to include them. Although, when one considers the millions of their own citizens that the, and their liberal-commie-Marxist gov'ts murdered, I can understand your reluctance to include them in your glory-worship list.
[/quote]

You didn't even read my post did you? The racism reference comes as a comparison to the way some people (cough-cough) throw the world around. Here's the other thing about social services though.

If all social services, every single bit of it, is wiped away......... Do you really think your taxes are going to come down? Really? Do you think they're going to send you a check for the social security they took out of your paycheck for years? Do ya? If you do you're incredibly naive. Or determinedly ignorant. The money we have all paid for all of our lifetimes is now "theirs" as in the governments. Like the Panama Canal, they stole it fair and square. So having taken it, should they give it back to the betterment of the people? Bet your ass.

;'Rani

[TheScotsman]

Another Federal Judge, in the single biggest case brought against the federal gov't, tossed the individual mandate, declaring it unconstitutional, and out of the scope of the commerce clause. He went so far as to state the individual mandate can not be separated from the remainder of the law. The entire law is unconstitutional, and congress exceeded it's authority. Congress can't make people buy something. Too bad progressive liberals-you are going to loose this one.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1296504200' post='496333']
Another Federal Judge, in the single biggest case brought against the federal gov't, tossed the individual mandate, declaring it unconstitutional, and out of the scope of the commerce clause. He went so far as to state the individual mandate can not be separated from the remainder of the law. The entire law is unconstitutional, and congress exceeded it's authority. Congress can't make people buy something. Too bad progressive liberals-you are going to loose this one.
[/quote]

God,Scotty, even your avatar knows this is a dead issue, why don't you join us in discussing the Egyptian situation, I'd really be interested in your opinion[img]http://imgsrv.1051thebuzz.com/image/krsk/UserFiles/Image/gorilla6.jpg[/img]

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1296507808' post='496345']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1296504200' post='496333']
Another Federal Judge, in the single biggest case brought against the federal gov't, tossed the individual mandate, declaring it unconstitutional, and out of the scope of the commerce clause. He went so far as to state the individual mandate can not be separated from the remainder of the law. The entire law is unconstitutional, and congress exceeded it's authority. Congress can't make people buy something. Too bad progressive liberals-you are going to loose this one.
[/quote]

God,Scotty, even your avatar knows this is a dead issue, why don't you join us in discussing the Egyptian situation, I'd really be interested in your opinion[img]http://imgsrv.1051thebuzz.com/image/krsk/UserFiles/Image/gorilla6.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I think he's genetically indisposed to discuss anything he thinks we might be in agreement with him about. If he's not arguing, he's not happy.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

It's just nice to see that we actually do have a few members of the judiciary, with whom their oath to uphold the constitution meant something.

The fact pebo's justice dept didn't try for a stay, but a clarification of ruling (which didn't go their way) shows the fact they are afraid to appeal the case at this point. Odds are, with the current court, they will loose in the supreme court, attempting to drag the case out at the federal district level is merely a stalling tactic on the part of the administration. It's far from dead... unless of course, you are on the loosing side, and just want to ignore the cases in which the gov't has tried the greatest overstep of federal powers since the war powers act.

Way back when the law was drafted the dems specifically removed sever-ability from the mandate in an attempt to circumvent constitutional limitations. peelosi didn't foresee the fact that action alone would become the stake through obummer-care's heart. Right from the start, that appeared to be the means to kill the law.


If it's so great, and constitutional, why is this president afraid to push his justice dept into a quick appeal? Simple... he will loose. That is good for the American Constitution