A Question Of Legality...

[magick777]

I have an awkward question.

We have recently seen a number of posts discussing tobacco taxes and their impact on shisha users in the UK, Sweden, Spain and the United States. In some of those threads, members including myself are discussing the availability of molasses on the black market. I am in the position where no legal supply is available to me; therefore, I either buy tobacco illegally or I stop smoking hookah. With similar legislation being proposed in many countries including the United States, I don't think that anyone would dispute that this is an entirely relevant subject in this forum.

We do not wish to be seen to promote illegal activity, and black market tobacco would be as illegal in the United States as it is here, by definition. Therefore, I could arguably find myself to be in flagrant, repeated breach of the clearly stated forum rules, as I've discussed the same thing in two threads recently, and in the full knowledge that it is illegal, too. On the other hand, unless there are literally no legal restrictions on the sale of tobacco in the United States, then this same forum is [b]operating[/b] a black market of its own, in that molasses is bought and sold between consenting adults in the Trades section.

I would therefore appreciate some clarification of the popular view on black market tobacco, and the discussion thereof on this forum. My own view is that we should not openly *promote* illegal activity, nor should we become implicated in the supply of illegal tobacco (the forum can hide behind the "common carrier" argument in US law and disclaim responsibility, though), nor should we post openly about those businesses who take risks in keeping us supplied. However, we should not be unprepared to discuss the realities that we face as consumers, what we do in response, and possibly even on odd occasions be prepared to indulge in trades if it helps out those who have genuine difficulties getting a particular product. But, that is my view, and I don't know how it sits with either the forum rules, or the facts on the ground.

And yes, I post this with the intention to provoke. To provoke a thoughtful discussion, that is, because the way it's looking, most of us are eventually going to face the choice between illegal activity or no hookah. Where do we stand on this? Should we clarify the forum rules in respect of whatever is decided? On a happy note, my parcel from theshishashop has just arrived, so I should be back with a handful of reviews over the coming week... if I haven't made myself unwelcome!

[Genie]

I am completely and totally uneducated on the subject so I can comment on only one aspect of your post. I feel that the trading and selling of tobacco on a forum like this isn't a problem because the taxes have already been paid on the tobacco that is being swapped and sold--and none of it is being sold for a profit. It's not as if we're smuggling shisha. A case might be made against someone who bought some shisha in a state where the tax is lower and resold it, unopened, to someone in a state where the tax is higher. Maybe. And maybe if we were talking about massive amounts of tobacco we'd need to worry. Technically, I suppose, someone could come down on some of the sales/trades taking place. I can't imagine any legal authority batting an eye at our trades and sales--they've got much bigger fish to fry.

If anyone becomes truly concerned about possible prosecution it seems like the easiest thing to do would be to never buy tobacco from anyone on the forum--but trading for it shouldn't be a problem.

Am I being naive, probably. But prosecuting any of us for selling our piddly little amounts of shisha to each other would be a massive waste of time for all concerned. Edited January 6, 2011 by Genie

[IainUM]

wow, that is a very interesting idea you have suggested. i can completely see what you are trying to say. the only real response i can come up with at this moment (just woke up, still kinda groggy) is that i wouldn't consider us selling tobacco to each other really a black market or anything for the most part. there are some exceptions, but most of the time people are selling things at a significantly lower price to other people and they sell it not to make a profit, but to break even on something they either did not like or could not get working (like the every finicky tangiers). for the most part people just try to break even or take a loss in profit when selling or trading items.

i im intrigued with this suggestion, though. i will be following this thread

dont worry, magick, i dont dislike you, man

[ih303]

[quote name='Genie' timestamp='1294328557' post='493558']
I feel that the trading and selling of tobacco on a forum like this isn't a problem because the taxes have already been paid on the tobacco that is being swapped and sold...[/quote]

Bingo.

When it comes to taxes, all the government really cares about is that they get paid. Typically, it's the end [b]vendor[/b] who ends up eating that cost, and it's different in every state. For instance, in my state (South Dakota), I'm both a licensed retailer and wholesaler. If I didn't have a wholesale license, I would only be allowed to buy tobacco from the short list of tobacco wholesalers in my state - none of which carry hookah tobacco. Having a wholesale license allows me to buy tobacco products from wherever I want as long as I pay the 35% tax.

At this point, the government is paid and happy. The tobacco is now the private property of the customer and can be sold or traded as such.

[magick777]

From initial responses, I have perhaps highlighted the wrong part of my question. I'm not trying to scare anybody off private trading, I concur that they've bigger fish to fry, and I personally am in favour of users being able to discuss the issues they face, as long as they show some discretion.

But, my subjective opinion doesn't change the legality of it... so those of us in such enligtened countries as Sweden and the UK are either literally bound to our commitment not to discuss anything illegal, or we're given the official blind eye if we use discretion in those situations where it is relevant to our ability to smoke shisha. That was more the point of my question... I'm fairly anarchist in my thinking and am all for people making their own decisions... but, we are in a situation where this forum may wish to express a clear position on the matter.

[Rani]

I can't see tobacco being outlawed entirely because the tax revenues are so lucrative. But I can see it being taxed to high heavens. I honestly would like to see tobacco for shisha sold as pure tobacco, with all the appropriate taxes and conditions for sale (no minors, etc.), and then have the flavorings sold separately. I know they're often "cooked" together, but I don't see any reason why flavorings couldn't come with instructions to add x amounts of flavor to each x amount of tobacco. I mean really, I'd use this type of system all the time because I wouldn't have 250 grams of this or that that I'm not so crazy about sitting around. I could make my own small batches that would always get used within a week. Or mix up more for a party, or whatever. I could really see the benefits of this without having to wreck the taxes our governments are collecting.

'Rani

[Genie]

[quote name='magick777' timestamp='1294340684' post='493568']
From initial responses, I have perhaps highlighted the wrong part of my question. I'm not trying to scare anybody off private trading, I concur that they've bigger fish to fry, and I personally am in favour of users being able to discuss the issues they face, as long as they show some discretion.

But, my subjective opinion doesn't change the legality of it... so those of us in such enligtened countries as Sweden and the UK are either literally bound to our commitment not to discuss anything illegal, or we're given the official blind eye if we use discretion in those situations where it is relevant to our ability to smoke shisha. That was more the point of my question... I'm fairly anarchist in my thinking and am all for people making their own decisions... but, we are in a situation where this forum may wish to express a clear position on the matter.
[/quote]

The forum rules say we can't talk about illegal substances. But in glancing through them (barely even skimming, truth be told), there doesn't seem to be anything against talking about other illegal things--such as black market ciggs.

[ih303]

[quote name='magick777' timestamp='1294340684' post='493568']
... but, we are in a situation where this forum may wish to express a clear position on the matter.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is that this thread is just a vehicle for you to continue to push the envelope on forum rules? Let it go, man. I appreciate a good discussion about political, or in your case [i]apolitical[/i], persuasion as much as the next guy, but I think most people come to this forum (at least this part of the forum) for other reasons.

I'm not trying to be rude, man, but I enjoy reading your posts and don't want to see this stuff get under your skin to the point where you get frustrated and leave. Just do what I do: If you're thinking about posting something that you think might be questionable, ask a mod. There are plenty of important topics that have been discussed here that are borderline against the rules, but as long as people do it tastefully and play by the rules, it's not a big deal. Dig?

[dizzbizz]

Well this is interesting. I honestly can't see the US making tobacco illegal anytime soon, the only thing I'm worried about is the H.R. 4439 bill that'll make it stupidly expensive to buy shisha. Also I hardly consider our trading section comparable to the Black Market. I don't think I've ever seen a trade or sale happen so someone could acquire tobacco illegally in their country. Mostly none of us ship outside the US, but I don't know about other members from another country. Another option to acquire tobacco is growing it. Have you considered that?

[noodle]

[quote name='dizzbizz' timestamp='1294349942' post='493582']
Well this is interesting. I honestly can't see the US making tobacco illegal anytime soon, the only thing I'm worried about is the H.R. 4439 bill that'll make it stupidly expensive to buy shisha. Also I hardly consider our trading section comparable to the Black Market. I don't think I've ever seen a trade or sale happen so someone could acquire tobacco illegally in their country. Mostly none of us ship outside the US, but I don't know about other members from another country. Another option to acquire tobacco is growing it. Have you considered that?
[/quote]

Speaking pragmatically, making tobacco stupidly expensive has already been reached. RYO is taxed at almost $25 per pound and they're talking about doing that to pipe tobacco under the guise of "fairness". You don't need to have it banned to cause trouble. Why do you think you keep hearing of police making busts of untaxed cigarettes? As long as they keep cranking tobacco taxes ever higher, there will be even more motivation to get into tobacco smuggling. This is bad on several fronts. For one, choice and quality will be severely curtailed. Little operations like Eric's will evaporate and only the nastiest excuses for tobacco will remain unless you want to spend the time and effort finding a legal vendor who sells good stuff. Another thing, do you really want to have to deal with the mob to get tobacco? Edited January 7, 2011 by noodle

[Arcane]

Sorry, I sorta kinda read the initial post then in went into the familiar rant, instigation vibe so I started skimming.

From the topic, it seems as though you're either exaggerating or interpreting certain scenarios to fit your argument. I know of a from UK residents, and those residing specifically in London, that have access to hookah/tobacco supplies. So, I'm not sure where your "I am in the position where no legal supply is available to me; therefore, I either buy tobacco illegally or I stop smoking hookah" statement is founded. You have the ability to purchase tobacco products from the US, Jordan, UAE, etc...you just have to pay the customs when they're delivered.

Order tobacco, have it shipped to you, and pay the customs. There's nothing illegal about this process.

Now, I've not seen too many discussions regarding "black market" tobacco, so I'm not sure where the "promotion" comes in. There are instances where a user will ask, how can I get tobacco shipped to me. As far as I've seen, the most in-depth the conversation has gone is "go see Vendor A. He offers discrete shipping." While this can be interpreted as "promoting", it's really up to Vendor A and Consumer B on what actions they take and that is not usually discussed on these forums (anymore).

As far as being unwelcome, I think these discussions are a welcome change of pace and actually appreciate it.

[magick777]

[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1294359436' post='493618']
From the topic, it seems as though you're either exaggerating or interpreting certain scenarios to fit your argument. I know of a from UK residents, and those residing specifically in London, that have access to hookah/tobacco supplies. So, I'm not sure where your "I am in the position where no legal supply is available to me; therefore, I either buy tobacco illegally or I stop smoking hookah" statement is founded. You have the ability to purchase tobacco products from the US, Jordan, UAE, etc...you just have to pay the customs when they're delivered.

Order tobacco, have it shipped to you, and pay the customs. There's nothing illegal about this process.



[/quote]

Yup, I have access to hookah/tobacco supplies in London, which don't bear a UK Duty Paid stamp, and therefore aren't legal. I don't know of any *legal* supply of anything other than herbal molasses, because sadly, importation is not now as simple as fly it in, pay the customs. Instead, the seller has to make arrangements for the duty to be paid before the tobacco is shipped (see first question [url="http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD_008556&propertyType=document#P7_592"]here[/url]), ptherwise they seize the goods, and you do not have the option to pay the duty and collect the goods, as clarified in the same document. It is theoretically possible, I suppose, for a UK importer to make the necessary legal arrangements with a seller and get the goods shipped in with the duty paid, but, I know of no UK company that does this and no foreign companies that will ship tobacco to the UK with duty paid.

The added complication of tobacco licensing means that ALL of the big shisha businesses have effectively been forced to go herbal, and no longer sell tobacco molasses. Those that do, do so illegally under the counter. And I can't say I blame them. Their other option would be to pay for expensive licenses and inspections in order to be allowed to stock a product that they'd have to sell at three times the black market price in order to break even. One can see why they either went legal, or went underground.

I am not (yet) complaining of lack of access to tobacco, I am observing that the access we do have to genuine tobacco molasses is via a black market, and therefore that technically we are discussing an item and a practice that is illegal. This does not concern me on moral grounds, but it does concern those who have an interest in keeping this forum strictly on the right side of the law and above suspicion. So, although the question does relate to forum rules, it is not a flippant one; if I am asked about supplies of tobacco molasses in the United Kingdom, I am discussing how and where to obtain something illegal. I do not wish to offend anyone by so doing. Guidance is mixed; the fact that we allow trades here suggests that we do not see it as our responsibility to enforce restrictions on who may legally sell tobacco or how; therefore, in principle, it looks reasonable enough to me that we trade tobacco here in the UK, too, and talk about it likewise. But, it is technically illegal, and so it would be in the United States if not legally imported.

Therefore, there is in all this a genuine, but difficult, request for a clarification of policy. We either take the view that it is a necessary evil (which I do), and a legitimate subject for discussion on this forum subject to caution and common sense, or we take the view that people work hard to keep this legal (which I accept that they do) and that if it is illegal, we don't discuss it here. The latter view, in the context of unlicensed supply of tobacco, would disappoint those of us who have no better option and would seem somewhat hypocritical in light of our view on trading. But, I genuinely do not wish to crap on those who are trying to keep it strictly legal, either.

I freely admit that it's a bloody awkward question, and one where we're likely to be damned if we do and damned if we don't. I assure you that I will continue to buy tobacco based molasses, legally or not, for as long as it is available to me. The question is whether I'm permitted to discuss that here, and I'll accept the majority opinion (or admin pronouncement) as appropriate. Not just looking to push the envelope; it is directly relevant to discussions I am often involved in.

[Arcane]

Uhhh, I had this all nicely quoted but it was a bit distracting.....so I'll just address the thread in general.

Cigarettes, hookah tobacco, pipe tobacco and similar products are all LEGAL in the United States. It's the process in which you're obtaining them is bit that's illegal. If you stood next to a police officer while smoking a cigarette, they wouldn't arrest you. However, if you stated "I'm smoking this cigarette and have 600 cartons of cigarettes in which taxes were not paid." You'd probably be in some shit. It's not so much that you own cigarettes, but more so that you have no paid duties on said cigarettes.

Reread the rule. It says [b]substances[/b] that are [b]illegal[/b] in the [b]US[/b]. So, let's see...the substance in question is tobacco. Tobacco is legal in the US. Safe subject. The rules do not make mention of methodologies of obtaining tobacco, but if you'll notice...those topics aren't prevalent on these forums. As stated before, the most in-depth we usually go is "Ask Vendor A".

And by your response, I'm assuming you've never "arranged" for the taxes to be paid. It actually is as simple as ordering from a vendor, ship it over, and pay the duties. You're adding your own hypotheses into your retort. This "arrange for taxes to be paid prior to shipping" is actually just for your benefit. If the seller goes through the proper procedures, the box will have a 2976 (or 2976-A) saying the package contains tobacco. If the seller does not pay duties prior to shipping, you'll get notified that you have a package and duties are owed. In order to claim said package, you must pay the taxes. If you refuse or are incapable of paying the taxes, your merchandise is seized. That's it. No major coordination needed. No jumping through hoops, no channeling the force needed. Have them ship the tobacco and be ready to pay the taxes. If you don't believe me, just try it. Edited January 7, 2011 by Arcane

[Arcane]

Damn edit time limit. I do have an example of the UK customs scenario, but it's from another forum source and I'd rather not link to another hookah forum. However, the basic turn of events was "UK Customer B placed order with Vendor A. Package was held and taxed by UK Customs. User pays over 20 pounds and gets his order." Thats all.

Oh, and this occurred less than 6 months ago. Edited January 7, 2011 by Arcane

[Chreees]

But I like channeling the Force to get my shisha!

I get that sheesh free... yeah, that's right, come to the dark side. We gots free sheesh.

Oh, and excellent post, Jay. Well done, sir.

And to back Jay up, I remember that thread on the other forum...

[king_lunchb0x]

no black market here..just a smoker helping out another... the only things that do make more then their original cost is those who sell Tang mini phunnels....but that isn't tabaccy.
question based on this statement"[b]
Yup, I have access to hookah/tobacco supplies in London, which don't bear a UK Duty Paid stamp, and therefore aren't legal"
[font="Arial"]On a quick search for hookah shops this is what i came up with.. What about about Uk hookah vendors? I'm sure they would know how to ship properly?
http://www.shishahookah.co.uk/

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=london+hookah+shops&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

sounds like a bummer tho, for us things are getting harder and stricter...were probably not to far behind the UK

[/font][/b]

[magick777]

[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1294371956' post='493642']


Cigarettes, hookah tobacco, pipe tobacco and similar products are all LEGAL in the United States.
Reread the rule. It says [b]substances[/b] that are [b]illegal[/b] in the [b]US[/b]. So, let's see...the substance in question is tobacco. Tobacco is legal in the US. Safe subject. The rules do not make mention of methodologies of obtaining tobacco, but if you'll notice...those topics aren't prevalent on these forums. As stated before, the most in-depth we usually go is "Ask Vendor A".


And by your response, I'm assuming you've never "arranged" for the taxes to be paid. It actually is as simple as ordering from a vendor, ship it over, and pay the duties. You're adding your own hypotheses into your retort. This "arrange for taxes to be paid prior to shipping" is actually just for your benefit. If the seller goes through the proper procedures, the box will have a 2976 (or 2976-A) saying the package contains tobacco. If the seller does not pay duties prior to shipping, you'll get notified that you have a package and duties are owed. In order to claim said package, you must pay the taxes. If you refuse or are incapable of paying the taxes, your merchandise is seized. That's it. No major coordination needed. No jumping through hoops, no channeling the force needed. Have them ship the tobacco and be ready to pay the taxes. If you don't believe me, just try it.

[/quote]


Regarding the first point, I fully agree that the underlying product, tobacco, is not a prohibited substance. However, what we are talking about, in an environment where that tobacco is not legally for sale, is black-market tobacco, or contraband. Therefore, the practice and the product/article that we are discussing (black market tobacco / contraband, as opposed to the tobacco plant) is just as illegal in the United States as it is here. By your definition of "legal", the only thing prohibited would be those substances that have no known medical or research purposes (i.e. Schedule 1 in the USA), because anything else is "legal" under given conditions. Tobacco is legal if it is legally imported and sold; if not, the product itself is contraband. NHT is legal, if you have a government licence to grow it. If we ignore the conditions under which a product or substance is legal, then surely the product/substance is illegal? Certainly, it is here.

Regarding your second, my response is not based on hypothesis, but backed up by a link to the guidance from Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs on the legalities of importing tobacco over the Internet, which clearly states that tobacco on which the duty has not been paid [i]in advance[/i] is liable to forfeiture, and that it is [b]not[/b] possible to pay the duty and keep the items thereafter. I have imported plenty of other items (clothing mostly) and paid the taxes and duties at the Post Office, but that is not allowed here for tobacco. One is not given the option to pay the taxes; the goods are seized and destroyed. I have had that happen with one batch of hand-rolling tobacco imported from Spain, never tried it with molasses after that, since legally it is the same. Yes, UK law is an ass.

Your interpretation of the rules is a common sense one, and if I can trust that everyone else takes the same interpretation of "substance" and "legal" as you do, then I'm on safe ground. However, in light of recent discussions, I don't feel I can safely take that concensus for granted, hence the request for discussion / clarification.

So, I reiterate, our options here in the United Kingdom are smoke herbal, or buy illegally.

[magick777]

[quote name='king_lunchb0x' timestamp='1294373635' post='493652']
[b]
[font="Arial"]On a quick search for hookah shops this is what i came up with.. What about about Uk hookah vendors? I'm sure they would know how to ship properly?
[url="http://www.shishahookah.co.uk/"]http://www.shishahookah.co.uk/[/url]

[/font][/b][/quote]

Who declare as soon as you try to order tobacco that they ship from Dubai, and that any duties or charges are the responsibility of the consumer. Unfortunately, as per the HMRC guidance referenced previously, such shipments (when detected) are siezed as contraband and the recipient is [b]not[/b] permitted to pay the duty and collect the goods. I have had this happen with hand-rolling tobacco, and molasses is now treated as any other tobacco.

Unreasonable? Yes. Unfair? Yes. Orwellian? Yes. True? 'Fraid so. If you can find me *one* UK retailer that sells tobacco molasses legally, I'll consider buying it legally. To the best of my knowledge and belief there is no legal UK importer of tobacco-based molasses any more.

[Teaboy]

I recently had some tobacco seized, and that happened because it was sent labelled 'molasses'. If they would've specified the packaged contained tobacco I could have received it, but I would've been guaranteed to be hit with a £80 bill (for 500g of tobacco). It is legal if it is labelled, but the costs incurred are so high it works out cheaper to get tobacco seized every now and then, and that's when it becomes illegal.


[quote name='magick777' timestamp='1294374848' post='493657']
[quote name='king_lunchb0x' timestamp='1294373635' post='493652']
[b]
[font="Arial"]On a quick search for hookah shops this is what i came up with.. What about about Uk hookah vendors? I'm sure they would know how to ship properly?
[url="http://www.shishahookah.co.uk/"]http://www.shishahookah.co.uk/[/url]

[/font][/b][/quote]

Who declare as soon as you try to order tobacco that they ship from Dubai, and that any duties or charges are the responsibility of the consumer. Unfortunately, as per the HMRC guidance referenced previously, such shipments (when detected) are siezed as contraband and the recipient is [b]not[/b] permitted to pay the duty and collect the goods. I have had this happen with hand-rolling tobacco, and molasses is now treated as any other tobacco.

Unreasonable? Yes. Unfair? Yes. Orwellian? Yes. True? 'Fraid so. If you can find me *one* UK retailer that sells tobacco molasses legally, I'll consider buying it legally. To the best of my knowledge and belief there is no legal UK importer of tobacco-based molasses any more.





[/quote]

[camelflage]

[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]what do you really want to talk about? i dont see a point in trying to argue semantics over what the definition of illegal is and how it can be construed to fit some sort of scenario. Rule #2 is common sense and doesnt need any sort of deeper dive to understand it. If a substance is illegal in the US, dont talk about it. most everyone knows what illegal substances we are getting at. avoiding tarrifs is an illegal PRACTICE, which while we dont really want to promote on the forum, is not the same as an illegal SUBSTANCE. but if you are trying to poke and prod at the rule to get some sort of justification for breaking it, it's a waste of time.[/size][/color]

[size="2"][color="#1C2837"]now for the UK, we all know getting shisha in past the crazy taxes is a pain in the ass. you are allowed to lament about it, ask what other people do to deal with it, and discuss options with members on the forums. we do frown on, however, posting explicit instructions as to circumventing any law of any country. [/color][/size]

[mushrat]

well..you may have noticed we have asked people NOT to post about how to beat customs when sending shisha to countries where such shipments must be declared. I can dig up the thread if you wish. Secondly we have changed a popular payment systems name as not to trigger their ever watchful eye as using that service for tobacco is illegal. And finally, if you will be so kind as to review rule #2 it says we don't discuss things that are illegal in the US. What you do in your country is up to you but its not illegal for us to send you tobacco, its illegal for you to RECEIVE the tobacco without paying your tariffs and taxes.

I love a good debate, as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

[noodle]

It should be said that it's not illegal to pay for tobacco with that particular payment system so much as the owners don't want you using it for that. They'll close your account if you do it. That being said, there's another system, [url="http://www.gpal.net"]GPal[/url], which explicitly allows the purchase of any legal product.

[GoldenFingerBl4ster99]

[quote name='magick777' timestamp='1294374104' post='493654']
[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1294371956' post='493642']
Cigarettes, hookah tobacco, pipe tobacco and similar products are all LEGAL in the United States.
Reread the rule. It says [b]substances[/b] that are [b]illegal[/b] in the [b]US[/b]. So, let's see...the substance in question is tobacco. Tobacco is legal in the US. Safe subject. The rules do not make mention of methodologies of obtaining tobacco, but if you'll notice...those topics aren't prevalent on these forums. As stated before, the most in-depth we usually go is "Ask Vendor A".


And by your response, I'm assuming you've never "arranged" for the taxes to be paid. It actually is as simple as ordering from a vendor, ship it over, and pay the duties. You're adding your own hypotheses into your retort. This "arrange for taxes to be paid prior to shipping" is actually just for your benefit. If the seller goes through the proper procedures, the box will have a 2976 (or 2976-A) saying the package contains tobacco. If the seller does not pay duties prior to shipping, you'll get notified that you have a package and duties are owed. In order to claim said package, you must pay the taxes. If you refuse or are incapable of paying the taxes, your merchandise is seized. That's it. No major coordination needed. No jumping through hoops, no channeling the force needed. Have them ship the tobacco and be ready to pay the taxes. If you don't believe me, just try it.

[/quote]


Regarding the first point, I fully agree that the underlying product, tobacco, is not a prohibited substance. However, what we are talking about, in an environment where that tobacco is not legally for sale, is black-market tobacco, or contraband. Therefore, the practice and the product/article that we are discussing (black market tobacco / contraband, as opposed to the tobacco plant) is just as illegal in the United States as it is here. By your definition of "legal", the only thing prohibited would be those substances that have no known medical or research purposes (i.e. Schedule 1 in the USA), because anything else is "legal" under given conditions. Tobacco is legal if it is legally imported and sold; if not, the product itself is contraband. NHT is legal, if you have a government licence to grow it. If we ignore the conditions under which a product or substance is legal, then surely the product/substance is illegal? Certainly, it is here.

Regarding your second, my response is not based on hypothesis, but backed up by a link to the guidance from Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs on the legalities of importing tobacco over the Internet, which clearly states that tobacco on which the duty has not been paid [i]in advance[/i] is liable to forfeiture, and that it is [b]not[/b] possible to pay the duty and keep the items thereafter. I have imported plenty of other items (clothing mostly) and paid the taxes and duties at the Post Office, but that is not allowed here for tobacco. One is not given the option to pay the taxes; the goods are seized and destroyed. I have had that happen with one batch of hand-rolling tobacco imported from Spain, never tried it with molasses after that, since legally it is the same. Yes, UK law is an ass.

Your interpretation of the rules is a common sense one, and if I can trust that everyone else takes the same interpretation of "substance" and "legal" as you do, then I'm on safe ground. However, in light of recent discussions, I don't feel I can safely take that concensus for granted, hence the request for discussion / clarification.

So, I reiterate, our options here in the United Kingdom are smoke herbal, or buy illegally.


[/quote]
I am having trouble deciding what you are more concerned about. The law or the rules of the forum. But from what I gather you are looking for conformation as to weather or not you are breaking the forum rules. As it clearly states in the rules thread and others have mentioned prior to myself, the forum is US based and follows US laws. It is obvious that you are very adamant in demanding that the moderators or majority of the community take a black and white stance of the legality of yourself discussing tobacco on the forums since you are native to the UK. That for which the answer is very easy, the site follows US laws, shisha is a legal product in the United States, so in that situation you are in the clear. On the other hand, or I should say situation, which I believe you have failed clarify is a much different situation, is solely in relation to the trading/selling category of this forum. Correct me if I am wrong, you are worried that the exchange of tobacco between a UK and a US member would render the forum an "illegal black market". I am no expert on law but this is how I see it. If I were to send tobacco to you, in the UK, you would be scrutinized under you governments law and punished accordingly for willingly accepting the parcel. On the contrary if you were to send tobacco to the US, which you would obviously not be able to declare as tobacco you may be susceptible to punishment if you are caught, or the American who received it will have his product destroyed (not sure what the punishment is here) for not being declared as a tobacco product. What it comes down to is that the law in any give country falls primarily on the individuals as a result of their actions and has little to do with the forums.

Anyways that is just my opinion and is created from the little knowledge that I bestow. I must say that I cannot help but think that you somehow get pleasure in continually trekking through the grey area of this forums rules (if you read any Nietzsche you might understand why).

[mushrat]

Heh, that was during his more rebellious youth here on the forum....

[magick777]

My gut feeling is that the issue has largely been laid to rest, and I do not particularly wish to reopen the discussion, but allow me to answer the issues you raised. You have perhaps not seen this thread in context of various related events and discussions that preceded it. For the record, I do not have any problem with the forum rules, or with the need for the site to abide by the laws of the country in which its servers are hosted, or with the use of absolute, executive discretion by the administrators where someone steps over the line, provided that that line is clearly drawn.

However, there were a couple of situations in which users had been summarily banned (mostly accidental NHT references) in circumstances where it was arguable that they had even broken the rules as written, where it was clear that there had been no intention to break the spirit of them, and where they had been banned for what I considered to be a valid and worthwhile contribution, based on a technicality as opposed to a flagrant breach of the rules. I did not feel that this was in the interest of the wider community, whether it was justifiable under the rules or not, and we seem to have lost the user in question, which I find regrettable.

When I queried this at the time, the explanations and clarifications flew thick and fast, but the bottom line was expressed as "if it's illegal, don't talk about it", or "if it would be illegal in the United States, don't talk about it". Which is fair enough in principle, and clear enough when it comes to NHT, although I still believe we can and should discern the difference between an innocent cockup and a flagrant disregard for the rules.

There have been a number of civil and intelligent discussions with the admin team about why the rules are the way they are, I accept them as such, and it was felt that for the mods to employ discretion in these situations would open up accusations of unfairness. Which is a reasonable response, even if I still feel it succeeded in losing us a user we didn't really want or need to lose. Fundamentally, I have considerable respect for this forum and do not wish to upset public opinion here, so, as I would in any foreign culture, I metaphorically take my shoes off at the door.

My purpose in this thread was to point out, as devil's advocate, that by the most stringent interpretation of the rules (as we had just made where NHT is concerned), almost anything that a UK or Swedish user does or says on here concerning shisha involves discussing and using contraband; while some UK users have posted photographs of contraband and even stated where it came from. Contraband is illegal in the US and these discussions are a grey area, even if the substance itself is legal. Apart from which I wouldn't want to see anyone bite the hand that feeds us; it's US retailers who help us get it here. So, there's no argument that discretion is needed, but you can see the thorny nature of the question. My point about the Trades forum was neither legal concern nor disapproval, but the potential hypocrisy in saying "don't talk about anything that is potentially illegal" whilst providing a mechanism to buy and sell tobacco on what is effectively a "black market" in that it is not licensed and regulated. This applies as much within the United States as it does to any international context.

Anyway, enough. I am in fundamental agreement with the mods and admins about the need to use caution and common sense and with the generic advice to stay on the right side of the law or know when to take the conversation private, and I haven't personally had a problem yet. I continue to believe that we run a risk of trapping innocent users who have read the rules and acted in good faith. However, I am also pleased to note that since this discussion, there have been two accidental NHT references where the offending user has been made aware of the problem and advised to PM a mod requesting that they edit out the indiscretion; a request that has twice been obliged willingly and without a ban. I regard this as much better, and would be quite happy to see it become standard practice for all but the most flagrant of transgressions.

I will close by reiterating that, while responses are welcome, I am not particularly interested in furthering the discussion; we have succeeded in clarifying matters, there is no particular disagreement about them, and we even seem to have found a way of warning users and inviting them to retract, without compromising the integrity of the mod team. I take no credit for this, but am pleased to see it happen. You are correct that I am usually to be found trawling through the grey areas, but it's normally for the common good, not just for the sake of stirring the pot....