The Gabrielle Giffords Shooting

[mustafabey]

I was saddened by the attempted assassination of Rep. Gabreille Giffords and the deaths of 6 innocents including a Federal judge. The whole event seemed senseless. Yet, almost immediately the left wing pundits began to blame the rhetoric of right wing talk radio and Sarah Palin's use of crosshairs over Gifford's district in map that highlighted districts where liberals need to be voted out. Today the talk show show hosts lost little time attacking the left for the poliitics of hate. Gun control advocates jumped on the bandwagon and its seemed everyone forgot Ms. Giffords battling for life and a 9 year old girl whose life was robbed from her. The politics of division are so strong in this nation, that instead of mourning, there are those who just want to use this event for their own political motives. And I am talking both sides here. People seem blind to the truth and accusations fly thicker than ticker tape in the old New York parades. While Glenn Beck tells us that we must all buy gold,lay in a years supply of freeze dried food and buy non hybrid seeds(all offered by his advertisers) against the impending collapse caused by the policies of the Obama administration, Nancy Pelosi goes on record blaming Geo. W.Bush for the high unemployment figures, even though when her party held the reins of congress for 2 years and almost nothing was done to stimulate job growth. So again, a tragic event just fuels the circus that is American politics in the 21st century.
The truth is somewhat different and has little to do with politics. It has to do with people who,having been identified with mental illness, are none the less allowed to slip thru the cracks.On 16 April 2007, at a place not far down the road from here, at Virginia Tech,Seung-Hui Cho killed 30 people and wounded another 25 in an event that shocked our little mountain communities. Cho had been diagnosed with mental disorders and had shown some disturbing behavior while at Tech. Yet it wasn't addressed and the info was not passed on to government agencies, so Cho had no problem obtaining weapons.Jared Lee Loughner was a similar character. His school identified him as a problem and told him to get help if he wanted to return. The Army wouldn't touch him wit a 10 ft pole, although they don't give the reasons. Once again,like Cho, he slipped thru the cracks, only to surface armed,dangerous and shooting. Although I deplore the hate and blame rhetoric of both sides of the political fence and am a firm supporter of second amendment rights,I think we must come up with some kind system to better identify these kind of people and make it very difficult for them to obtain firearms.
I would love to here your opinions on this subject.

[dizzbizz]

I agree, we need a system to identify the individuals with mental disorders, however we don't know if he obtained the gun legally. This isn't an issue of politics, rather its an act of rage and violence performed by a sick man. Westboro church is having a field day with this and wants to picket the funerals. Including the 9 year old girl who he killed in the shooting. I'm glad I live here in Tucson so I can be part of the human barricade.

[Rani]

I think it's more complex than the rhetoric although it certainly plays a part in what's happening out here. We have really unhappy people out here. Social security that they pay into out of their own pockets for decades is being threatened. Despite "official" figures of 9.4%, actual unemployment is estimated at double that, meaning that a full one-fifth of our nation is out of work with no jobs on the immediate horizon. Foreclosures are still going on in the tens of thousands every month. Small business is being taxed to death, while global businesses takes jobs offshore and are nearly tax free due to their structuring and the smoke and mirrors of their tax returns. You have what is essentially the very same social conditions that were present before the Russian Revolution, the French Revolution, the American Revolution, even ancient Rome. So you have a waiting powder keg. Now the hatred, racism, class warfare, "entertainment" quality of rhetoric and you basically have gasoline flowing towards the powder and people running with lit firebrands. The fact that our politicians haven't realized that shows just how undeserving of their offices they truly are. We have not been this close to anarchy since long before the sixties. And this is just the general atmosphere.......

Now less add in stress and sleep deprivation as more and more people come closer to the brink and become unable to find work and benefits keep running out. We all know that stress and sleep disturbance can take a perfectly sane and balanced person and send them over the edge to paranoia and irrationality. So you pretty much have all those people reaching that point where they are coming closer to the point of no return. They feel their lives are over so they might as well take a few people with them. And to them, it's perfectly rational, because they are no longer rational. 20% of the population pushing the limits of sanity? Not a good forecast for the future.

On top of all that, you have the fact that the moment you step into the public eye, you take on a responsibility for what you say and do. Like it or not, planned or not, valid or not, you become a role model, a symbol and an example. People look up to you. They believe what you say and if you're a raving lunatic they still follow you. People really are mostly sheep and they will follow someone who catches their attention whether they lead them to glory or into hell itself. Seems to be our "flock" mentality. And of course we keep trying to crush creativity and individuality along the way, but that's a different debate. If you're going to step into the public eye, then you need to realize that every word you say, every action you take is going to influence someone, somewhere, and almost certainly not always in any rational way.

So you have people respected by various masses preaching hate and condemnation to a boiling simmering mass of people running towards powder kegs with firebrands. I'm surprised it took this long for disaster to strike. I'm surprised anyone is surprised. California Rep. Richardson made a very interesting statement. He said that this kind of thing had previously been unthinkable. Now it wasn't so unthinkable any more and he was concerned about it happening again. Because he believed the American people may have reached a point of no return.

You don't construct a building with one block. You don't put a puzzle together with one piece. So long as people are out there spreading hate and division, it's going to be one piece of the puzzle. And one part of the cause. There's huge debate over whether or not Sarah Palin has some responsibility because she had a picture of Rep. Gillfords with cross hairs over her face several months ago. And she did it without consideration of the consequences. We can yell Freedom of Speech to our hearts content but we're back to yelling fire in a crowed theater, no doubt about it. But she's no more responsible than every other politician or entertainer who without consideration of their impact, and total disregard for common decency crosses over the line. Even we're responsible because what we say here might matter to someone. They might respect what any one of us says enough to follow what we say or how they interpret what we say.

My ex-boyfriend had a saying.............. "Don't start shit because you never know if the next motherfucker you piss off is going to be your maker."

Everybody needs to quit starting shit because the crazies are listening and they just might do what you say.

'Rani

[dizzbizz]

I don't understand what all of those unemployment figures have to do with Loughner. He was a 22 year old student. If you read about what his classmates said about him you'd see he's just messed up. He tried to create and circulate his own currency to replace the US dollar, he laughed and talked to himself during class. You think THIS guy is normal?
[img]http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/1/39/4ea/1394eab8-1d0b-11e0-8305-001cc4c03286-revisions/4d2b8ba024ed0.image.jpg[/img]

The only person who influenced this guy was the voice in his head.


EDIT:More information on him.
[url="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/01/10/loughner_bio_background/"]http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/01/10/loughner_bio_background/[/url]

[Rani]

[quote name='dizzbizz' timestamp='1294708331' post='493941']
I don't understand what all of those unemployment figures have to do with Loughner. He was a 22 year old student. If you read about what his classmates said about him you'd see he's just messed up. He tried to create and circulate his own currency to replace the US dollar, he laughed and talked to himself during class. You think THIS guy is normal?


The only person who influenced this guy was the voice in his head.


EDIT:More information on him.
[url="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/01/10/loughner_bio_background/"]http://www.salon.com...bio_background/[/url]
[/quote]

It's the general malaise, the atmosphere we have going on in this country lately. Haven't you ever walked into a place, or a room, and just felt your mood adjust accordingly? We are creating a lot of of unbalanced people. It's of course entirely possible his particular mental health issue was organic, but that doesn't change the fact that our entire nation is becoming, very, very similar to those places and times that have before led to the rational accepting the irrational as being reasonable.

'Rani

[joytron]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294700948' post='493929']
I was saddened by the attempted assassination of Rep. Gabreille Giffords and the deaths of 6 innocents including a Federal judge. The whole event seemed senseless. Yet, almost immediately the left wing pundits began to blame the rhetoric of right wing talk radio and Sarah Palin's use of crosshairs over Gifford's district in map that highlighted districts where liberals need to be voted out. Today the talk show show hosts lost little time attacking the left for the poliitics of hate. Gun control advocates jumped on the bandwagon and its seemed everyone forgot Ms. Giffords battling for life and a 9 year old girl whose life was robbed from her. The politics of division are so strong in this nation, that instead of mourning, there are those who just want to use this event for their own political motives. And I am talking both sides here. People seem blind to the truth and accusations fly thicker than ticker tape in the old New York parades. While Glenn Beck tells us that we must all buy gold,lay in a years supply of freeze dried food and buy non hybrid seeds(all offered by his advertisers) against the impending collapse caused by the policies of the Obama administration, Nancy Pelosi goes on record blaming Geo. W.Bush for the high unemployment figures, even though when her party held the reins of congress for 2 years and almost nothing was done to stimulate job growth. So again, a tragic event just fuels the circus that is American politics in the 21st century.
The truth is somewhat different and has little to do with politics. It has to do with people who,having been identified with mental illness, are none the less allowed to slip thru the cracks.On 16 April 2007, at a place not far down the road from here, at Virginia Tech,Seung-Hui Cho killed 30 people and wounded another 25 in an event that shocked our little mountain communities. Cho had been diagnosed with mental disorders and had shown some disturbing behavior while at Tech. Yet it wasn't addressed and the info was not passed on to government agencies, so Cho had no problem obtaining weapons.Jared Lee Loughner was a similar character. His school identified him as a problem and told him to get help if he wanted to return. The Army wouldn't touch him wit a 10 ft pole, although they don't give the reasons. Once again,like Cho, he slipped thru the cracks, only to surface armed,dangerous and shooting. Although I deplore the hate and blame rhetoric of both sides of the political fence and am a firm supporter of second amendment rights,I think we must come up with some kind system to better identify these kind of people and make it very difficult for them to obtain firearms.
I would love to here your opinions on this subject.
[/quote]

You talk about how the whole incident is being twisted by the left in order to further their agenda while lacking in the humanity to view this a horrible act with actual victims. You then go on to use this example as a medium to further your social views, essentially the same actions you condemn the left of doing.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1294709963' post='493944']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294700948' post='493929']
I was saddened by the attempted assassination of Rep. Gabreille Giffords and the deaths of 6 innocents including a Federal judge. The whole event seemed senseless. Yet, almost immediately the left wing pundits began to blame the rhetoric of right wing talk radio and Sarah Palin's use of crosshairs over Gifford's district in map that highlighted districts where liberals need to be voted out. Today the talk show show hosts lost little time attacking the left for the poliitics of hate. Gun control advocates jumped on the bandwagon and its seemed everyone forgot Ms. Giffords battling for life and a 9 year old girl whose life was robbed from her. The politics of division are so strong in this nation, that instead of mourning, there are those who just want to use this event for their own political motives. And I am talking both sides here. People seem blind to the truth and accusations fly thicker than ticker tape in the old New York parades. While Glenn Beck tells us that we must all buy gold,lay in a years supply of freeze dried food and buy non hybrid seeds(all offered by his advertisers) against the impending collapse caused by the policies of the Obama administration, Nancy Pelosi goes on record blaming Geo. W.Bush for the high unemployment figures, even though when her party held the reins of congress for 2 years and almost nothing was done to stimulate job growth. So again, a tragic event just fuels the circus that is American politics in the 21st century.
The truth is somewhat different and has little to do with politics. It has to do with people who,having been identified with mental illness, are none the less allowed to slip thru the cracks.On 16 April 2007, at a place not far down the road from here, at Virginia Tech,Seung-Hui Cho killed 30 people and wounded another 25 in an event that shocked our little mountain communities. Cho had been diagnosed with mental disorders and had shown some disturbing behavior while at Tech. Yet it wasn't addressed and the info was not passed on to government agencies, so Cho had no problem obtaining weapons.Jared Lee Loughner was a similar character. His school identified him as a problem and told him to get help if he wanted to return. The Army wouldn't touch him wit a 10 ft pole, although they don't give the reasons. Once again,like Cho, he slipped thru the cracks, only to surface armed,dangerous and shooting. Although I deplore the hate and blame rhetoric of both sides of the political fence and am a firm supporter of second amendment rights,I think we must come up with some kind system to better identify these kind of people and make it very difficult for them to obtain firearms.
I would love to here your opinions on this subject.
[/quote]

You talk about how the whole incident is being twisted by the left in order to further their agenda while lacking in the humanity to view this a horrible act with actual victims. You then go on to use this example as a medium to further your social views, essentially the same actions you condemn the left of doing.
[/quote]

Twisted by the left and twisted by the right. I think the continuing rhetoric is getting us nowhere and doing nothing positive. Although I am a liberal in many ways, I am as disgusted with the left these days as i am with the right. Really I am confused with the options given us politically. No one speaks for me today, it was not so in the past. I reckon the social views I am espousing are concerning with helping people like Cho and Loughner before the go off the deep end. The politicians aren't espousing social views they are tossing the hot potato back and forth rather than take some responsiblity for the situation.
Rani is quite right when she says "[b] So you have a waiting powder keg."

I lived in the 60's and saw the division. People died then, too at Kent State, in assassinations and on the battlefields of Vietnam. But I think things are more divided today than the were in the 60's. Its getting scary out there.
[/b]

[mustafabey]

Just to further compound the idiocy that this nation has descended into,I just read that the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka,Kansas is going to Tucson to demonstrate at the funeral of Cristina Green the 9 year old that was killed. And these people call themselves Christians. Haven't the parents of this child suffered enough,having their 9 year old taken by senseless violence, and now having to endure the presence of these people who, I imagine are going to say that all this happened because "God hates fags" The American Taliban strike again

[mustafabey]

[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1294709963' post='493944']
You talk about how the whole incident is being twisted by the left in order to further their agenda while lacking in the humanity to view this a horrible act with actual victims. You then go on to use this example as a medium to further your social views, essentially the same actions you condemn the left of doing.
[/quote]

I have been thinking about Joytron's comment and recently posted a blog entry about my social views and those of others. Joytron is correct,I am identifying a social solution to this issue,ie: to better identify those whose behaviors might explode into violence. However, what i am doing is endangering freedom. Someone has to set parameters for what these behaviors might be. Others might find gun control as the social solution to this kind of tragedy. Fred Phelps of the Westboro baptist church might have other ideas as to who the dangerous ones might be. So what I am saying,and I'm thinking out loud here, is that we as a nation have become so irresponsible in our use or abuse of our first amendment rights that we risk losing them, if we can't heal the hatred. People have different opinions and agendas that influence their decisions. Former attorney general John Ashcroft had cloth drapings put over the naked breasts of the statue of justice and a similar movement is afoot in Virgina to cover the naked breast of Liberty as she trounces tyranny on our state flag.Rev. Ted Haggard denounced homosexuals while he engaged a male prostitute, I suppose in an effort to cover up his own sexuality. So who gets to decide? Do we enter an era similar to the early fifties when Joe McCarthy made those decisions and many people suffered because he thought they were communists? Would a Department of Correctness emerge as a Department of Homeland Security emerged after 9/11? And when does that become a KGB,a Mukhabarat,or a Gestapo? If we don't get responsible with our freedoms we are going to lose them.
I closed my blog entry with this quote:

"I think it's important for all leaders... not just leaders of the Republican Party or the Democratic Party... to say, look, we can't stand for this...we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is that the way that she has it depicted has the cross-hairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."
-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, March 25, 2010

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294758572' post='494024']
Just to further compound the idiocy that this nation has descended into,I just read that the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka,Kansas is going to Tucson to demonstrate at the funeral of Cristina Green the 9 year old that was killed. And these people call themselves Christians. Haven't the parents of this child suffered enough,having their 9 year old taken by senseless violence, and now having to endure the presence of these people who, I imagine are going to say that all this happened because "God hates fags" The American Taliban strike again
[/quote]

The biggest problem I have with mainstream Christianity, is that they take the position that if you claim "Christian" about anything it automatically becomes acceptable behavior. Common sense and basic human decency have a tendency to be thrown into the winds all in the name of Christ, who would be appalled at all that's been and is being done in his name.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294763605' post='494034']
[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1294709963' post='493944']
You talk about how the whole incident is being twisted by the left in order to further their agenda while lacking in the humanity to view this a horrible act with actual victims. You then go on to use this example as a medium to further your social views, essentially the same actions you condemn the left of doing.
[/quote]

I have been thinking about Joytron's comment and recently posted a blog entry about my social views and those of others. Joytron is correct,I am identifying a social solution to this issue,ie: to better identify those whose behaviors might explode into violence. However, what i am doing is endangering freedom. Someone has to set parameters for what these behaviors might be. Others might find gun control as the social solution to this kind of tragedy. Fred Phelps of the Westboro baptist church might have other ideas as to who the dangerous ones might be. So what I am saying,and I'm thinking out loud here, is that we as a nation have become so irresponsible in our use or abuse of our first amendment rights that we risk losing them, if we can't heal the hatred. People have different opinions and agendas that influence their decisions. Former attorney general John Ashcroft had cloth drapings put over the naked breasts of the statue of justice and a similar movement is afoot in Virgina to cover the naked breast of Liberty as she trounces tyranny on our state flag.Rev. Ted Haggard denounced homosexuals while he engaged a male prostitute, I suppose in an effort to cover up his own sexuality. So who gets to decide? Do we enter an era similar to the early fifties when Joe McCarthy made those decisions and many people suffered because he thought they were communists? Would a Department of Correctness emerge as a Department of Homeland Security emerged after 9/11? And when does that become a KGB,a Mukhabarat,or a Gestapo? If we don't get responsible with our freedoms we are going to lose them.
I closed my blog entry with this quote:

"I think it's important for all leaders... not just leaders of the Republican Party or the Democratic Party... to say, look, we can't stand for this...we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is that the way that she has it depicted has the cross-hairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."
-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, March 25, 2010
[/quote]

Remember all the old Exorcist type movies? A big point is made of the fact that our soul cannot be taken from you. You have to make the choice to give it up. The same applies to most issues. You cannot force anyone to do anything or it has no value. We have to instill a sense of decency in people so that they make the choice to act in ways that are not divisive and not dangerous to the common good. One way we do that I think is we have to start standing up to what we know to be wrong. When Palin's website went up, most people thought it was just another dumb act by the dumb Alaskan bimbo. Most of us didn't pay much attention to it or laughed it off. But what we should have been doing is writing her in droves and telling her it was unacceptable and she would be responsible in the case of tragedy. It wouldn't have changed an unbalanced person from doing what he did, but it would have certainly not been there adding to the escalating atmosphere of hatred and violence permeating our nation right now. Don't like the likes of Glenn Beck? Don't bother writing him, write every advertiser on FOX and let them know you won't be buying their products because you don't like the person they support through their advertising budget. Do that enough and Beck will be gone almost overnight. We have to start saying "no more", and meaning it. It's human nature to do whatever you can get away with. Let's start letting them all know that we the public aren't going to let them profit and get away with it. If we as a people do this, it will never come to the need for government to take a stand.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

Facts:

Lone acting lunatics are nearly to stop-and completely impossible to prevent if they are willing to die in the act they plan.

If it weren't a firearm, it could have been any one of a myriad of other weapons.

the guy is as crazy as a loon-not insane by a legal standard, but crazy in an evil way.




That aside, there is a reaction by the left to twist facts here, again. His fellow classmates made reports about his mental state, the instructors followed them with complaints of their own-yet the institution failed to act. IMNHO it wouldn't have mattered either way. Still, if there is a blame to be placed, the college shared a gigantic part of the blame for dropping the ball. His fellow students said h was radically left leaning... yet the new blabbermouths try to blame it on Palin? Good grief! If politics, or political debate were the inspiratin, why would he go after one of the few truly middle of the road politicians around? This is just another bit of proof that you have to be careful just what you say to people. It seems Giffords didn't answer some question he posed to her, to his satisfaction; That simple act set off this person's actions.




My prayers go to the families, and victims of this piece of human garbage. Hope he likes the smell of brimstone.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1294782490' post='494070']
Facts:

Lone acting lunatics are nearly to stop-and completely impossible to prevent if they are willing to die in the act they plan.

If it weren't a firearm, it could have been any one of a myriad of other weapons.

the guy is as crazy as a loon-not insane by a legal standard, but crazy in an evil way.




That aside, there is a reaction by the left to twist facts here, again. His fellow classmates made reports about his mental state, the instructors followed them with complaints of their own-yet the institution failed to act. IMNHO it wouldn't have mattered either way. Still, if there is a blame to be placed, the college shared a gigantic part of the blame for dropping the ball. His fellow students said h was radically left leaning... yet the new blabbermouths try to blame it on Palin? Good grief! If politics, or political debate were the inspiratin, why would he go after one of the few truly middle of the road politicians around? This is just another bit of proof that you have to be careful just what you say to people. It seems Giffords didn't answer some question he posed to her, to his satisfaction; That simple act set off this person's actions.




My prayers go to the families, and victims of this piece of human garbage. Hope he likes the smell of brimstone.








[/quote]

Okay, putting my actions where my mouth is........... Scotsman can you please in the future stop with the "Left" this and "Liberal" that with the implication of name calling. Few people are completely "left" or "liberal" or "right" or "conservative". The "far right" and the "far left" are so outside the majority that they pretty much meet up in the same place. So since I actually value your opinion, and give you credit for some insightful intelligence when you're not ranting (but then that's true of us all), I'd very much like to hear your opinion on specific issues without having to wade through the name calling. So let's you and I personally make a deal.. No more name calling from either of us. Discussion of specific actions as addressed to specific issues, okay?

Who the hell knows...... Maybe some surf-bot will come across one of our discussions and together we'll actually solve a problem or two. And wouldn't that be one for the record books?

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1294787111' post='494081']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1294782490' post='494070']
Facts:

Lone acting lunatics are nearly to stop-and completely impossible to prevent if they are willing to die in the act they plan.

If it weren't a firearm, it could have been any one of a myriad of other weapons.

the guy is as crazy as a loon-not insane by a legal standard, but crazy in an evil way.




That aside, there is a reaction by the left to twist facts here, again. His fellow classmates made reports about his mental state, the instructors followed them with complaints of their own-yet the institution failed to act. IMNHO it wouldn't have mattered either way. Still, if there is a blame to be placed, the college shared a gigantic part of the blame for dropping the ball. His fellow students said h was radically left leaning... yet the new blabbermouths try to blame it on Palin? Good grief! If politics, or political debate were the inspiratin, why would he go after one of the few truly middle of the road politicians around? This is just another bit of proof that you have to be careful just what you say to people. It seems Giffords didn't answer some question he posed to her, to his satisfaction; That simple act set off this person's actions.




My prayers go to the families, and victims of this piece of human garbage. Hope he likes the smell of brimstone.








[/quote]

Okay, putting my actions where my mouth is........... Scotsman can you please in the future stop with the "Left" this and "Liberal" that with the implication of name calling. Few people are completely "left" or "liberal" or "right" or "conservative". The "far right" and the "far left" are so outside the majority that they pretty much meet up in the same place. So since I actually value your opinion, and give you credit for some insightful intelligence when you're not ranting (but then that's true of us all), I'd very much like to hear your opinion on specific issues without having to wade through the name calling. So let's you and I personally make a deal.. No more name calling from either of us. Discussion of specific actions as addressed to specific issues, okay?

Who the hell knows...... Maybe some surf-bot will come across one of our discussions and together we'll actually solve a problem or two. And wouldn't that be one for the record books?

'Rani
[/quote]




Give me a break. The word-police don't want to hear the word liberal?!?!?! If you can't call left, left, or liberals, liberals, then you are on the same linguistics twisting BS that this nutball was. Ms. Giffords was shot by someone with a proclivity to force people to use the words he wanted them to use, decided it was worth murdering people over. Words are just words, you choose to take them as you will.... that is solely your own decision, the victim-mentality reigns supreme in this nation. If you choose to take something negatively, you will do so no matter how many times the PC crowd selects yet another word to stand in for the original. If you think regulating who can use what word is going to be progress, you are lost in the kool-aid fountain without a snorkel. Now, just out of curiosity, what codeword do you propose to use in place of that horrible label "Liberal"? In the end, isn't that word going to end up with the same random values, and stigmatization as "liberal"? Then what? we pick a new one? That sounds silly to the point of being the basis for a Monty Python skit? Tell you what, you can be the chairman of the ministry of words... let me know what we can use to refer to a left leaning person-just make sure it's short, I hate typing long silly words. I'll vote for using "ward" to mean left-winger... in honor of ward Churchill-my favorite loopie. For right wing nuts, let's call them dicks... in honour of dick cheney. ( I know you were thinking something else.)

In this case, it was the left that brought politics into the whole discussion... remember that freak-leftie sheriff that blamed the right within 30 minutes of the event? Or the NYT that instantly blamed the right? (within 5 minutes) The local NPR hag was instantly calling him a "right wing millitant" Hmmmm.... That IS the definition of liberalism in action. Instantly place blame on the opposite side, then when it becomes clear they are wrong,they move on to trying to suppress the truth through regulation, and mockery; Then when that doesn't work, they just start making stuff up. (referring to the liberal-spin machine here, no particular individual)

If you consider calling a liberal a liberal, you got a problem! If you are embarrassed to be a liberal, maybe it's time to change sides, eh? Welcome to the light-better late than never!

Someone better go tell Hillary she can't call herself a progressive-liberal anymore... Rani wants the word banned.

As far as jackasses goes, there are more than we need on this side... that freak westburough baptist church bunch says they want to protest the funeral of Christina Green. So I'll see your loopy-leftie, and raise you a right-wing-nut-job.

Thanks Rani- I really did need a good laugh today. I can't tell if you are serious, trying to make a point through sarcasm, or suffering a bout of thought-police desire. Don't take me wrong, it's just too funny to not take that ball and run with it.




Disclaimer: Don't go badger Mush about any of the above, it was meant to be a semi-humorous method of making a point. If you are butt hurt over it, you got problems... ward.




Ok, I'll try----- But I still get to call them ward, right? (er, left?)

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1294810311' post='494114']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1294787111' post='494081']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1294782490' post='494070']
Facts:

Lone acting lunatics are nearly to stop-and completely impossible to prevent if they are willing to die in the act they plan.

If it weren't a firearm, it could have been any one of a myriad of other weapons.

the guy is as crazy as a loon-not insane by a legal standard, but crazy in an evil way.




That aside, there is a reaction by the left to twist facts here, again. His fellow classmates made reports about his mental state, the instructors followed them with complaints of their own-yet the institution failed to act. IMNHO it wouldn't have mattered either way. Still, if there is a blame to be placed, the college shared a gigantic part of the blame for dropping the ball. His fellow students said h was radically left leaning... yet the new blabbermouths try to blame it on Palin? Good grief! If politics, or political debate were the inspiratin, why would he go after one of the few truly middle of the road politicians around? This is just another bit of proof that you have to be careful just what you say to people. It seems Giffords didn't answer some question he posed to her, to his satisfaction; That simple act set off this person's actions.




My prayers go to the families, and victims of this piece of human garbage. Hope he likes the smell of brimstone.








[/quote]

Okay, putting my actions where my mouth is........... Scotsman can you please in the future stop with the "Left" this and "Liberal" that with the implication of name calling. Few people are completely "left" or "liberal" or "right" or "conservative". The "far right" and the "far left" are so outside the majority that they pretty much meet up in the same place. So since I actually value your opinion, and give you credit for some insightful intelligence when you're not ranting (but then that's true of us all), I'd very much like to hear your opinion on specific issues without having to wade through the name calling. So let's you and I personally make a deal.. No more name calling from either of us. Discussion of specific actions as addressed to specific issues, okay?

Who the hell knows...... Maybe some surf-bot will come across one of our discussions and together we'll actually solve a problem or two. And wouldn't that be one for the record books?

'Rani
[/quote]




Give me a break. The word-police don't want to hear the word liberal?!?!?! If you can't call left, left, or liberals, liberals, then you are on the same linguistics twisting BS that this nutball was. Ms. Giffords was shot by someone with a proclivity to force people to use the words he wanted them to use, decided it was worth murdering people over. Words are just words, you choose to take them as you will.... that is solely your own decision, the victim-mentality reigns supreme in this nation. If you choose to take something negatively, you will do so no matter how many times the PC crowd selects yet another word to stand in for the original. If you think regulating who can use what word is going to be progress, you are lost in the kool-aid fountain without a snorkel. Now, just out of curiosity, what codeword do you propose to use in place of that horrible label "Liberal"? In the end, isn't that word going to end up with the same random values, and stigmatization as "liberal"? Then what? we pick a new one? That sounds silly to the point of being the basis for a Monty Python skit? Tell you what, you can be the chairman of the ministry of words... let me know what we can use to refer to a left leaning person-just make sure it's short, I hate typing long silly words. I'll vote for using "ward" to mean left-winger... in honor of ward Churchill-my favorite loopie. For right wing nuts, let's call them dicks... in honour of dick cheney. ( I know you were thinking something else.)

In this case, it was the left that brought politics into the whole discussion... remember that freak-leftie sheriff that blamed the right within 30 minutes of the event? Or the NYT that instantly blamed the right? (within 5 minutes) The local NPR hag was instantly calling him a "right wing millitant" Hmmmm.... That IS the definition of liberalism in action. Instantly place blame on the opposite side, then when it becomes clear they are wrong,they move on to trying to suppress the truth through regulation, and mockery; Then when that doesn't work, they just start making stuff up. (referring to the liberal-spin machine here, no particular individual)

If you consider calling a liberal a liberal, you got a problem! If you are embarrassed to be a liberal, maybe it's time to change sides, eh? Welcome to the light-better late than never!

Someone better go tell Hillary she can't call herself a progressive-liberal anymore... Rani wants the word banned.

As far as jackasses goes, there are more than we need on this side... that freak westburough baptist church bunch says they want to protest the funeral of Christina Green. So I'll see your loopy-leftie, and raise you a right-wing-nut-job.

Thanks Rani- I really did need a good laugh today. I can't tell if you are serious, trying to make a point through sarcasm, or suffering a bout of thought-police desire. Don't take me wrong, it's just too funny to not take that ball and run with it.




Disclaimer: Don't go badger Mush about any of the above, it was meant to be a semi-humorous method of making a point. If you are butt hurt over it, you got problems... ward.




Ok, I'll try----- But I still get to call them ward, right? (er, left?)





[/quote]

Of course you can still use descriptive statements, because Left is after all Left and Right is after all right. My issue is that you (and far from you being the only one) have a tendency to use them in a derogatory manner adding to the atmosphere of combativeness. But here's the problem with them even as descriptive words............. Both are VERY fluid. Almost no one fits neatly into this slot or that one. So when you lump everyone into one category meanwhile using that categorization in a derogatory manner, you alienate the very people who might side with you on a particular issue and be more than willing to join you in solutions you might suggest.

Words are not just words. They have power and influence. Unless of course you're willing to stand in your company and shout orders which no one will follow since they're only words, right? Accept that you have influence. One of the biggest problems most people have is understanding and accepting their own power of influence. Even you in the original statement to which I responded said to watch what you say.

On the funeral, new hit today that the State of Arizona managed to draft and get and get a law passed in record time prohibiting the picketing of funerals withing 300'. Some think that infringes on freedom of speech, but so long as they're not being silenced but simply told to move the protest 300' away, they really aren't being infringed on. What I find amusing is that a government, state, federal, or city, that seem to argue about everything and can't agree on anything can manage to actually get something done almost overnight. Damn, what could they do if the rest of them got off their asses and worked together?

And lastly of course........


I have no reason to go bug Mush. First of all, he lurks pretty good on his own last time I checked. Secondly, we're having a very civil open discussion. No reason for anyone to come down on you or anyone else. And thirdly, being a compassionate person doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to get my feelings hurt by someone who is an internet acquaintance. I could take the sexist side and point out women are far stronger than any man ever born, but hey wouldn't that be the same as my "left", "right" argument? lol........

'Rani

[joytron]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1294813756' post='494119']
I could take the sexist side and point out women are far stronger than any man ever born, but hey wouldn't that be the same as my "left", "right" argument? lol........


'Rani
[/quote]



Now, thats just ridiculous.

[mustafabey]

Well,it seems, this incident is surely a great sign of how messed up we are. Little talk anywhere about the victims. Hate grabs the headlines, the blame game goes on. No one wants to acknowledge any responsibility for the political climate these days. Palin who drew the targets takes no responsibility, Limbaugh now rants about blaming the left because this guy likes conspiracy movies like Loose Change. The left, for their part, came down with blame long before any facts came to light. The fact is that this whacko was just that and not a follower of either side of the political fence. BUT,it has highlighted the fact that the rhetoric being used by both sides is incendiary and inflammatory. Sooner or later a whacko with political connections is going to open fire and we are too far committed to be able to not take sides.
Scotty, you must listen to alot of talk radio, your labels are the same as that crowd uses. We have to demean and dehumanize the other side with funny names. Yeah we did that in the Marine Corps in Vietnam, dehumanize the enemy makes it alot easier to waste him.We are not adversaries,dammit, we are Americans. The United States of America. United here being a rather key word,otherwise we'll descend to level of Somalia. While we call each other names, China has been securing just about all the new energy resources being developed. China now leads the world in green energy research(oh yes, global warming "hoax" not withstanding we are going to run out fuel) Now China has developed an aircraft carrier killer missle that, when operational will effectively end our domination of the Asian Pacific. I'm not advocating an arms race here, or war with China. But our internal politicals make us appear to be weak, and when weakness rears its head, the predators take notice.One the points being made at Mr. Assange's extradition hearings is that,if turned over to the Swedes, he is in danger of being rendered to American control, tortured and killed.Thats how some of the world views this bastion of democracy. Mr.Assange is not a traitor to America because he is not American. Locking up Assange for treason is as ridiculous as killing the Danish cartoonist for drawing nasty pictures. I don't condone Mr Assange's actions, but neither do I condone denying him rights as human being. We need to get our heads out of the sand or our ass and realize that this hatred we engage in has frozen the nation in time. While we stew in our own juice, the world passes us by. When gasoline is $10 a gallon and we can't fuel our SUV's the Chinese and the Indians will be zipping around in things like the smart car. At $10 a gallon right or left ain't gonna make too much difference. America needs to wake the fuck up!

[Venger]

Rani wins the I told you so award.
Zach Osler, in an interview Wednesday with ABC's "[url="http://www.foxnews.com/topics/entertainment/tv-shows/good-morning-america.htm#r_src=ramp"]Good Morning America[/url]," said: "He did not watch TV. He disliked the news. He didn’t listen to political radio. He didn’t take sides. He wasn’t on the left. He wasn’t on the right."

Media speculation swirled after Loughner allegedly opened fire at a Tucson rally last Saturday, critically wounding Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and 13 others and killing six. Immediately, the Tucson sheriff and liberal pundits and lawmakers chimed in that the shooting somehow was politically motivated and a result of the extreme rhetoric being used by conservatives such as Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

But Osler said Loughner wasn't shooting at people, "he was shooting at the world."


So he was just a nutball fed up with his life and how the world was going so he decided to shake shit up a bit.
but please continue to wallow in the shit both the Repub and the dems are feeding everyone. Same pile of shit just served with a different spoon.
viva la Revolution
Ray

[Chreees]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1294863089' post='494168']
but please continue to wallow in the shit both the Repub and the dems are feeding everyone. Same pile of shit just served with a different spoon.
viva la Revolution
Ray
[/quote]

In total agreement, man. They're splitting this country in two, making it crumble.

[mustafabey]

Hope.......not everyone is looney

[url="http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/12/greene.civility/index.html?hpt=C1"]Greene Commentary[/url]

[noodle]

Except for a couple weird outliers, I didn't count any Republicans or conservatives politicizing this tragedy. The only outlier I can think of right now is Peter King of New York who wants to ban firearms within 1000 feet of a politician. The most caustic I heard were variations of "oh shit, here we go again".

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294855944' post='494160']
Well,it seems, this incident is surely a great sign of how messed up we are. Little talk anywhere about the victims. Hate grabs the headlines, the blame game goes on. No one wants to acknowledge any responsibility for the political climate these days. Palin who drew the targets takes no responsibility, Limbaugh now rants about blaming the left because this guy likes conspiracy movies like Loose Change. The left, for their part, came down with blame long before any facts came to light. The fact is that this whacko was just that and not a follower of either side of the political fence. BUT,it has highlighted the fact that the rhetoric being used by both sides is incendiary and inflammatory. Sooner or later a whacko with political connections is going to open fire and we are too far committed to be able to not take sides.
Scotty, you must listen to alot of talk radio, your labels are the same as that crowd uses. We have to demean and dehumanize the other side with funny names. Yeah we did that in the Marine Corps in Vietnam, dehumanize the enemy makes it alot easier to waste him.We are not adversaries,dammit, we are Americans. The United States of America. United here being a rather key word,otherwise we'll descend to level of Somalia. While we call each other names, China has been securing just about all the new energy resources being developed. China now leads the world in green energy research(oh yes, global warming "hoax" not withstanding we are going to run out fuel) Now China has developed an aircraft carrier killer missle that, when operational will effectively end our domination of the Asian Pacific. I'm not advocating an arms race here, or war with China. But our internal politicals make us appear to be weak, and when weakness rears its head, the predators take notice.One the points being made at Mr. Assange's extradition hearings is that,if turned over to the Swedes, he is in danger of being rendered to American control, tortured and killed.Thats how some of the world views this bastion of democracy. Mr.Assange is not a traitor to America because he is not American. Locking up Assange for treason is as ridiculous as killing the Danish cartoonist for drawing nasty pictures. I don't condone Mr Assange's actions, but neither do I condone denying him rights as human being. We need to get our heads out of the sand or our ass and realize that this hatred we engage in has frozen the nation in time. While we stew in our own juice, the world passes us by. When gasoline is $10 a gallon and we can't fuel our SUV's the Chinese and the Indians will be zipping around in things like the smart car. At $10 a gallon right or left ain't gonna make too much difference. America needs to wake the fuck up!
[/quote]




Funny, you been in the kool-aid too.





Before you go blaming Palin for her "targets" you need to take a look at the fact the DNC did tha first. But oops, as is typical of the media, they never told you that part, and as is typical of the average kool-aid swilling member of the public, you never researched the truth, but recite the same useless propaganda you hear on cnn. Why is it you think it was fine to slam Palin, but give a pass to the DNC for the EXACT SAME ACT... all the while ignoring the fact that neither had anything to do with what happened in AZ? When you can answer that honestly, and with no BS, you will know why there is a growing unrest, and division in the USA.

More than any other reason, one has to blame the media twisting fats, omitting truths, all in the interest of their agenda. It's all hopeless until the public wakes up; Something that isn't going to happen in the USA in the near future. Oil plays a role, but the reason China has surpassed the USA, and will continue to, has allot to do with the fact Chinese students are stomping US students is the international scoring, especially at the college level. The SUV's have less to do with it than a college full of students who are too damn dumb to realize they are dumb. But, hell, they have the highest levels of self esteem. Go figure.




If anyone is so far gone that political free speech would cause them to murder a load of people, they are also so far over the edge that if it's not politics, it would be anything that they thought was wrong. I think the problem is a country full of immoral degenerates with an astounding lack of both self control, and the ability to handle their anger.

[Chreees]

Can we just all agree that our politicians are a bunch of numbnuts who have no clue what they're doing?

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1295044336' post='494385']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1294855944' post='494160']
Well,it seems, this incident is surely a great sign of how messed up we are. Little talk anywhere about the victims. Hate grabs the headlines, the blame game goes on. No one wants to acknowledge any responsibility for the political climate these days. Palin who drew the targets takes no responsibility, Limbaugh now rants about blaming the left because this guy likes conspiracy movies like Loose Change. The left, for their part, came down with blame long before any facts came to light. The fact is that this whacko was just that and not a follower of either side of the political fence. BUT,it has highlighted the fact that the rhetoric being used by both sides is incendiary and inflammatory. Sooner or later a whacko with political connections is going to open fire and we are too far committed to be able to not take sides.
Scotty, you must listen to alot of talk radio, your labels are the same as that crowd uses. We have to demean and dehumanize the other side with funny names. Yeah we did that in the Marine Corps in Vietnam, dehumanize the enemy makes it alot easier to waste him.We are not adversaries,dammit, we are Americans. The United States of America. United here being a rather key word,otherwise we'll descend to level of Somalia. While we call each other names, China has been securing just about all the new energy resources being developed. China now leads the world in green energy research(oh yes, global warming "hoax" not withstanding we are going to run out fuel) Now China has developed an aircraft carrier killer missle that, when operational will effectively end our domination of the Asian Pacific. I'm not advocating an arms race here, or war with China. But our internal politicals make us appear to be weak, and when weakness rears its head, the predators take notice.One the points being made at Mr. Assange's extradition hearings is that,if turned over to the Swedes, he is in danger of being rendered to American control, tortured and killed.Thats how some of the world views this bastion of democracy. Mr.Assange is not a traitor to America because he is not American. Locking up Assange for treason is as ridiculous as killing the Danish cartoonist for drawing nasty pictures. I don't condone Mr Assange's actions, but neither do I condone denying him rights as human being. We need to get our heads out of the sand or our ass and realize that this hatred we engage in has frozen the nation in time. While we stew in our own juice, the world passes us by. When gasoline is $10 a gallon and we can't fuel our SUV's the Chinese and the Indians will be zipping around in things like the smart car. At $10 a gallon right or left ain't gonna make too much difference. America needs to wake the fuck up!
[/quote]




Funny, you been in the kool-aid too.





Before you go blaming Palin for her "targets" you need to take a look at the fact the DNC did tha first. But oops, as is typical of the media, they never told you that part, and as is typical of the average kool-aid swilling member of the public, you never researched the truth, but recite the same useless propaganda you hear on cnn. Why is it you think it was fine to slam Palin, but give a pass to the DNC for the EXACT SAME ACT... all the while ignoring the fact that neither had anything to do with what happened in AZ? When you can answer that honestly, and with no BS, you will know why there is a growing unrest, and division in the USA.

More than any other reason, one has to blame the media twisting fats, omitting truths, all in the interest of their agenda. It's all hopeless until the public wakes up; Something that isn't going to happen in the USA in the near future. Oil plays a role, but the reason China has surpassed the USA, and will continue to, has allot to do with the fact Chinese students are stomping US students is the international scoring, especially at the college level. The SUV's have less to do with it than a college full of students who are too damn dumb to realize they are dumb. But, hell, they have the highest levels of self esteem. Go figure.




If anyone is so far gone that political free speech would cause them to murder a load of people, they are also so far over the edge that if it's not politics, it would be anything that they thought was wrong. I think the problem is a country full of immoral degenerates with an astounding lack of both self control, and the ability to handle their anger.





[/quote]



In his defense Scotsman, we're talking about a recent event. Sure the DNC and RNC are both run by a bunch of amoral hypocrites and they're equally guilty of the same activities, but you can only deal with issues as they happen. Not necessary to pull the "they started it" excuse card. I thought they're all claiming to be better than the past, hmmm? She should have not even tried the whole shenanigans of poor put upon Mama Grizzly soooooo misunderstood. I would have respect her a whole lot more if she'had come forward and said "Yes, we public figures should be more cognizant of what we say and how it effects people, and if anything I have said or done contributed to this tragedy then I can only give my deepest apologies because that was never my intention." Instead she tried the duck and shuffle. Never a good look for an aspiring politician. And honestly, it was her dancing around that has probably cost her any political future. Hell, 40% of the people polled hated her BEFORE she put her foot in her mouth this most recent time. Now it's running over 80% from what I hear. You really have to search a bit to find anyone openly supporting her these days. I don't think that would have happened if she'd only accepted her fair share of guilt for rhetoric whether or not it played any part.

I'm not absolving any side of anything, but you have to deal with what comes up when it comes up.. There are a few people pointing exclusively to right or left, but mostly people are demanding they ALL just stop inciting problems. Nobody is giving the other side a free pass just because that side wasn't the most recent infraction. People know they're all painted with the same brush.

We just need a whole lot of tar and feather to go with all that pretty paint.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

The Scotsman said:Before you go blaming Palin for her "targets" you need to take a look at the fact the DNC did tha first. But oops, as is typical of the media, they never told you that part, and as is typical of the average kool-aid swilling member of the public, you never researched the truth, but recite the same useless propaganda you hear on cnn. Why is it you think it was fine to slam Palin

I surely like to see something about the DNC using targets. I agree that we form out opinions on what information we get. And the sources that dispense that info are biased. Fox gives you one version,CNN another,MSNBC yet another then throw in all the pundits making commentaries everywhere and the truth becomes muddled. However when it comes to Ms. Palin,she uses events to propel herself into the fray. She shocks,raises eyebrows,offends.But she gets her name in the news,always, so, for now at leats it works. Gov Christie of NJ said that sooner or later she is going to have engage,answer questions etc,rather than just fire away on Facebook and Twitter. Well scotty,you got the still and I got the Kool_Aid.