Egypt Has Left The Internet

[kmccoy90]

In case you haven't heard, nationwide democratic protests have resulted in the Egyptian government shutting down 99% of the country's internet access. They cannot reach out, we cannot reach in.

Worse yet, the US government is allied with the Egyptian regime. We haven't issued a statement yet but this is a sticky situation for us.

I wonder how this will affect our culture as hookah smokers. So much of our goods come from Egypt... if the country is shut out indefinitely, I wonder what will happen. Google for more info, or check www.thedailywh.at for a recent posting of several links.

[agunn1231]

i knew that shit was going on,. did't really think how it would affect hookah for us. I am gonna have to really sit and think now

[Hassouni]

Yeah and Lebanon is fucked now too. It's OK Turkey and Syria are doing fine!

[Epoch]

Hopefully, it'll have no effect on our smoking...

[Rani]

Okay, sore point, and prepare for minor rant. Shame on you. Egypt is a lovely nation with a wonderful people. They are going through terrible uncertainty right now. I think our smoking when we have so much to choose from should be the last of our concerns.

I'm not certain the US really supports Mubarak himself........ I think it might actually be that they didn't want to mess around with what was until now one of the most stable of the Middle Eastern nations. I'm going to be very pissed at Washington though if they add any fuel to this fire and give him any support now when his people are working on self-determination. It is their right to decide, and like many poorer nations, human rights and services, freedoms, etc., have taken a back seat for a while. The internet closing down is obviously part of trying to control global media. It's never worked so far, and it won't work now. News will still get out. And in.

I hope for the sake of it's people that they can settle it before it drags out to the point of mass violence.

'Rani

[Chreees]

I agree with Rani... Although it sucks, it's not our (the U.S. gov) place to do anything about it. Their people will have to stand up and get the government to change. This is why so many countries hate us- we always get involved.

I hope things work out and they become a stronger nation because of it. It's bigger than just affecting us hookah smokers.

[IainUM]

oh well, i guess this could lead to only smoking tangiers..... what ever would we do?

[kmccoy90]

As Rani said, this isn't about our smoking. That was simply a question posed to emphasize that we might not think about stuff because it happens thousands of miles away, but it does affect us.

The US has a huge role in this. The Egyptian government receives massive amounts of aid from us. If, as one blogger put it, riot police decide to fire their weapons into a crowd there, it's our money doing the job. Unfortunately, agree with their government or not, we had few friends there, so we had to take whatever ally we could when initiating the (unneeded) wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[TheScotsman]

It's a mess with global implications.

The least of the problems are some shisha, or a new pipe. One has to wonder if there were a coup, or even an electoral replacement of the current gov with something of a muslim brotherhood puppet, what happens for any form of mid east peace? It would, at best, most likely derail any sort of peace, and at worst be the beginning of a new level of conflict. Egypt becomes an islamic religious state, and the threat of both terrorisim, or a hot conflict in the mid east is exponentially higher.

Fuel prices go insane (as they seem to be at the moment) Better fil up soon, it's going up!

The suez and any passage through it become a risk, or are impossible.

With all of North Africa under unrest, the possibility of southern Europe becoming a more active terrorist target is high. An Egypt air jet just had a bomb threat, and diverted to Athens. The first of many? If Egypt goes the way of Tunisia, you can bet there will be many more.

Would an Egypt under an islamic gov't start shooting at Israel? The likelihood of that getting ugly is off the charts. Israel will support the current gov't, adding to the problems if they fall.

Do we have a right to act in our best interests? Yes. The only questions would be as to what, exactly is in our best interest


Too bad we have a president who is the least qualified person in any room he enters. You have to question the US govt's desire for the president to be able to shut down the internet now, don't you?

[kmccoy90]

Your observations are all correct, although I don't see how Obama is the wrong person for the job. Speaking on the diplomatic endeavors he's embarked on over the past 2 years, he has a remarkably positive reputation throughout the rest of the world. Agree to disagree, however. Obama isn't what this thread is about.

-We wouldn't be involved with Egypt if we didn't need their alliance for our attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan.

-Aside from the Egyptian government currently under fire, we have no other political allies in that area of the world.

-The only reason we allied with the Egyptian government was because they needed our money, and their global position benefitted us tactically. Egypt is almost as un-democratic as a country can be. They're ranked nearly last on the global democratic scale. Interesting that George W. Bush allied with one authoritarian state in order to invade another... just saying.

We issued a statement asking Egypt to revoke their measures of oppression and to support their citizens' desires for peaceful protest. We'll see what action we take from here.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1296235515' post='495993']
Okay, sore point, and prepare for minor rant. Shame on you. Egypt is a lovely nation with a wonderful people. They are going through terrible uncertainty right now. I think our smoking when we have so much to choose from should be the last of our concerns.

I'm not certain the US really supports Mubarak himself........ I think it might actually be that they didn't want to mess around with what was until now one of the most stable of the Middle Eastern nations. I'm going to be very pissed at Washington though if they add any fuel to this fire and give him any support now when his people are working on self-determination. It is their right to decide, and like many poorer nations, human rights and services, freedoms, etc., have taken a back seat for a while. The internet closing down is obviously part of trying to control global media. It's never worked so far, and it won't work now. News will still get out. And in.

I hope for the sake of it's people that they can settle it before it drags out to the point of mass violence.

'Rani
[/quote]

The US is a big time supporter of Mubarak. Egypt receives the second largest amount of foreign and military aid after Israel.Obama and Co aren't going to give too much support to the demonstraters,just as they didn't to Tunisia and Iran during her elections. Netanyahu came out saying Egypt's security forces will maintain control and you know what that means. After elections in Gaza brought in Hamas, nobody is too keen to see democracy in the Middle East anymore. It is nice to see Mohammed El Baradei out in the streets giving support,but in the end the Muslim Brotherhood holds alot cards. Unfortunately. although the Brotherhood does not sanction violence,it is an Islamist organization and Amerika will not support it. Perhaps when the Presbyterian Brotherhood emerges in Cairo,then the administration might have words of kindness.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='kmccoy90' timestamp='1296246390' post='496004']
Your observations are all correct, although I don't see how Obama is the wrong person for the job. Speaking on the diplomatic endeavors he's embarked on over the past 2 years, he has a remarkably positive reputation throughout the rest of the world. Agree to disagree, however. Obama isn't what this thread is about.

-We wouldn't be involved with Egypt if we didn't need their alliance for our attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan.

-Aside from the Egyptian government currently under fire, we have no other political allies in that area of the world.

-The only reason we allied with the Egyptian government was because they needed our money, and their global position benefitted us tactically. Egypt is almost as un-democratic as a country can be. They're ranked nearly last on the global democratic scale. Interesting that George W. Bush allied with one authoritarian state in order to invade another... just saying.

We issued a statement asking Egypt to revoke their measures of oppression and to support their citizens' desires for peaceful protest. We'll see what action we take from here.
[/quote]

US involvement with Egypt goes back well past the "war on terrorism". The USA has been providing significant aid (around 1.3 Billion/year) since 1979. Now, the best I can remember, there were no president's named "bush" then. It was this peanut-farming guy named Carter. you got a case of Bush derangement syndrome going there. For that matter, the US aid money supporting the corrupt gov't of Mubarak, in fact, increased under the current admin. I suppose Bush did that too?!?!? Between FY 2000 and 2008 (that would be GW Admin) the aid to Egypt dropped from nearly 2Bn$ to around 1.7Bn$.This last year it went up by 50Bn$. But, ya, it's GW's fault.

The gov't appears to have stepped down, after giving a speech about mubarak sticking it out. IMNHO he is going to try to blame the cabinet, and hold power by throwing the bureaucrats under the bus. I expect to see the military crack down, the rubber bullets and CS will soon be replaced with lead, and grenades. I feel for the people of Egypt. Every one I ever met that wasn't a gov't goon has been a decent person.

The problem with the current admin is the simple fact they have zero respect in the international community. Guess that is what happens when you have a pres that spends his first year apologizing and bowing to every tin-hat dictator he can find. Obama will support mubarak under the table for sure, and likely show public support after a bit. He's hedging his bets now, and waiting for one side to show on top. It becomes a case of which collection of corrupt, repressive people do the least damage to have in power. Like Musty said, there will be no more support for the freedoms of the people than there were in Tunisia, Iran, Iraq, Afgan. If you thought Iraq was a mess, can you imagine a religious gov't in Egypt? Good grief, that would be a disaster of unbelievable proportion.

No political allies? Hmmm... did Israel move somewhere else when I wasn't looking?

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1296251167' post='496012']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1296235515' post='495993']
Okay, sore point, and prepare for minor rant. Shame on you. Egypt is a lovely nation with a wonderful people. They are going through terrible uncertainty right now. I think our smoking when we have so much to choose from should be the last of our concerns.

I'm not certain the US really supports Mubarak himself........ I think it might actually be that they didn't want to mess around with what was until now one of the most stable of the Middle Eastern nations. I'm going to be very pissed at Washington though if they add any fuel to this fire and give him any support now when his people are working on self-determination. It is their right to decide, and like many poorer nations, human rights and services, freedoms, etc., have taken a back seat for a while. The internet closing down is obviously part of trying to control global media. It's never worked so far, and it won't work now. News will still get out. And in.

I hope for the sake of it's people that they can settle it before it drags out to the point of mass violence.

'Rani
[/quote]

The US is a big time supporter of Mubarak. Egypt receives the second largest amount of foreign and military aid after Israel.Obama and Co aren't going to give too much support to the demonstraters,just as they didn't to Tunisia and Iran during her elections. Netanyahu came out saying Egypt's security forces will maintain control and you know what that means. After elections in Gaza brought in Hamas, nobody is too keen to see democracy in the Middle East anymore. It is nice to see Mohammed El Baradei out in the streets giving support,but in the end the Muslim Brotherhood holds alot cards. Unfortunately. although the Brotherhood does not sanction violence,it is an Islamist organization and Amerika will not support it. Perhaps when the Presbyterian Brotherhood emerges in Cairo,then the administration might have words of kindness.
[/quote]

I'm not completely up on the amount of aid our government has sent and still sends, so I'll trust your judgement on that. But even Egyptians I've spoken to and heard interviewed says that Egypt is heavily Coptic. More so than Muslim and that the Muslim partisans are actually so out numbered that they're trying to "get a seat at the party". So I'm not certain there's all that much potential for another 12th century style Egyptian government. I would think that would depend on who meddles and how much. If it's Islamic extremists then possibly a traditional Islamic government takeover is still a possibility, even if remote.

'Rani


'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1296261728' post='496026']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1296251167' post='496012']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1296235515' post='495993']
Okay, sore point, and prepare for minor rant. Shame on you. Egypt is a lovely nation with a wonderful people. They are going through terrible uncertainty right now. I think our smoking when we have so much to choose from should be the last of our concerns.

I'm not certain the US really supports Mubarak himself........ I think it might actually be that they didn't want to mess around with what was until now one of the most stable of the Middle Eastern nations. I'm going to be very pissed at Washington though if they add any fuel to this fire and give him any support now when his people are working on self-determination. It is their right to decide, and like many poorer nations, human rights and services, freedoms, etc., have taken a back seat for a while. The internet closing down is obviously part of trying to control global media. It's never worked so far, and it won't work now. News will still get out. And in.

I hope for the sake of it's people that they can settle it before it drags out to the point of mass violence.

'Rani
[/quote]

The US is a big time supporter of Mubarak. Egypt receives the second largest amount of foreign and military aid after Israel.Obama and Co aren't going to give too much support to the demonstraters,just as they didn't to Tunisia and Iran during her elections. Netanyahu came out saying Egypt's security forces will maintain control and you know what that means. After elections in Gaza brought in Hamas, nobody is too keen to see democracy in the Middle East anymore. It is nice to see Mohammed El Baradei out in the streets giving support,but in the end the Muslim Brotherhood holds alot cards. Unfortunately. although the Brotherhood does not sanction violence,it is an Islamist organization and Amerika will not support it. Perhaps when the Presbyterian Brotherhood emerges in Cairo,then the administration might have words of kindness.
[/quote]

I'm not completely up on the amount of aid our government has sent and still sends, so I'll trust your judgement on that. But even Egyptians I've spoken to and heard interviewed says that Egypt is heavily Coptic. More so than Muslim and that the Muslim partisans are actually so out numbered that they're trying to "get a seat at the party". So I'm not certain there's all that much potential for another 12th century style Egyptian government. I would think that would depend on who meddles and how much. If it's Islamic extremists then possibly a traditional Islamic government takeover is still a possibility, even if remote.

'Rani


'Rani
[/quote]

Rani, Copts make up less than 10% of the population. Most of the rest are Sunni with a small Shia minority. The Muslim Brotherhood provides education and social services to the poor and preaches in independent mosques. Egypt has a religious affairs dept that keeps most of the high ranking ulema(Mufti of Cairo, Rector of al Azhar) on government payroll. Some of the people are crying for the army to help them against the police and security appartatus.That would probably lead to a military coup and another strong man government,but Mubarak was Chief Air Marshal during the 73 war, so he may have the military in his pocket. Mohammed al Baradei, former UN Nuclear czar is running in the upcoming(Sept) presidential election. I like the color of that horse, but wouldn't bet on a win. Israel is scared shitless because these distubances have spread to Jordan. They are the only two Arab nations Israel has peace treaties with. They can imagine what life would be like in Israel with two Islamist neighbors. The Arab world has been ruled by strongmen since they emerged independent from the colonials and it looks like things might change. If an Islamist/populist revolution spreads the Saudi royals, Morocco,Assad and even Qaddafi are at risk. It'll change the whole game. Only one thing do I have certainty, America has no idea how to play this one and stands to lose bigtime if current Middle East policy continues.Oh and I hear the west Bank Palestinians may announce nationhood very soon. Interesting times,these

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1296263192' post='496028']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1296261728' post='496026']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1296251167' post='496012']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1296235515' post='495993']
Okay, sore point, and prepare for minor rant. Shame on you. Egypt is a lovely nation with a wonderful people. They are going through terrible uncertainty right now. I think our smoking when we have so much to choose from should be the last of our concerns.

I'm not certain the US really supports Mubarak himself........ I think it might actually be that they didn't want to mess around with what was until now one of the most stable of the Middle Eastern nations. I'm going to be very pissed at Washington though if they add any fuel to this fire and give him any support now when his people are working on self-determination. It is their right to decide, and like many poorer nations, human rights and services, freedoms, etc., have taken a back seat for a while. The internet closing down is obviously part of trying to control global media. It's never worked so far, and it won't work now. News will still get out. And in.

I hope for the sake of it's people that they can settle it before it drags out to the point of mass violence.

'Rani
[/quote]

The US is a big time supporter of Mubarak. Egypt receives the second largest amount of foreign and military aid after Israel.Obama and Co aren't going to give too much support to the demonstraters,just as they didn't to Tunisia and Iran during her elections. Netanyahu came out saying Egypt's security forces will maintain control and you know what that means. After elections in Gaza brought in Hamas, nobody is too keen to see democracy in the Middle East anymore. It is nice to see Mohammed El Baradei out in the streets giving support,but in the end the Muslim Brotherhood holds alot cards. Unfortunately. although the Brotherhood does not sanction violence,it is an Islamist organization and Amerika will not support it. Perhaps when the Presbyterian Brotherhood emerges in Cairo,then the administration might have words of kindness.
[/quote]

I'm not completely up on the amount of aid our government has sent and still sends, so I'll trust your judgement on that. But even Egyptians I've spoken to and heard interviewed says that Egypt is heavily Coptic. More so than Muslim and that the Muslim partisans are actually so out numbered that they're trying to "get a seat at the party". So I'm not certain there's all that much potential for another 12th century style Egyptian government. I would think that would depend on who meddles and how much. If it's Islamic extremists then possibly a traditional Islamic government takeover is still a possibility, even if remote.

'Rani


'Rani
[/quote]

Rani, Copts make up less than 10% of the population. Most of the rest are Sunni with a small Shia minority. The Muslim Brotherhood provides education and social services to the poor and preaches in independent mosques. Egypt has a religious affairs dept that keeps most of the high ranking ulema(Mufti of Cairo, Rector of al Azhar) on government payroll. Some of the people are crying for the army to help them against the police and security appartatus.That would probably lead to a military coup and another strong man government,but Mubarak was Chief Air Marshal during the 73 war, so he may have the military in his pocket. Mohammed al Baradei, former UN Nuclear czar is running in the upcoming(Sept) presidential election. I like the color of that horse, but wouldn't bet on a win. Israel is scared shitless because these distubances have spread to Jordan. They are the only two Arab nations Israel has peace treaties with. They can imagine what life would be like in Israel with two Islamist neighbors. The Arab world has been ruled by strongmen since they emerged independent from the colonials and it looks like things might change. If an Islamist/populist revolution spreads the Saudi royals, Morocco,Assad and even Qaddafi are at risk. It'll change the whole game. Only one thing do I have certainty, America has no idea how to play this one and stands to lose bigtime if current Middle East policy continues.Oh and I hear the west Bank Palestinians may announce nationhood very soon. Interesting times,these
[/quote]

Again, I bow to your greater knowledge. The Egyptians I know, I know directly as people/friends, etc. I don't identify them as fitting into certain religions, or immigrants, or...... You know what I mean...... My friend Sam is just Sam. Not Sam the Muslim Egyptian who immigrated in 1995. Make sense? And I've actually been to Egypt but as a pleasure tourist, not on business, and not doing any kind of research, so who was what, whey, etc., didn't come up, or escaped my observation.

So how about that Hookah Island thing? Somewhere out in the middle of the South Pacific maybe? As far away from this escalating mess of this world and the part our government plays in it as we can possibly get?

'Rani

[kmccoy90]

I'm really glad that this forum is intelligent enough to share knowledge and discuss this situation with respect and integrity. I know this post adds little to the discussion but in this day and age it's so hard to come by a group of people who share information without getting upset over who is right and wrong.

This situation is bigger than all of us. It's important that we never lose sight of this.

[kmccoy90]

P.S. Hookah Island sounds better now than ever.

[mustafabey]

Yes, on Hookah Island.....peace,quiet.no politics or religion, excellent food,great weather, good companionship and lots of chilling with a bowl of your favorite(we never run out) Well I am in charge of the shwarama so I'd better to back to my grill.

[mushrat]

I'm going to sit back and watch what happens....

Better get those supplies of foodstuff's I've been wanting to get..this could get REAL ugly.

Know this would bring you out scotsman.

Someone say Shwrama?

[agunn1231]

[quote name='mushrat' timestamp='1296272563' post='496036']
I'm going to sit back and watch what happens....

Better get those supplies of foodstuff's I've been wanting to get..this could get REAL ugly.

Know this would bring you out scotsman.

[b]Someone say Shwrama? [/b]
[/quote]

my thoughts exactly mush. i was watching the news for a few hours about this stuff today. i am worried about it.

[IainUM]

i fucking LOVE shawarma. i was so disappointed when this place in boca closed down. owned by a bunch of israelies (sp?) and i also used to get coals and cheaper AF there. a sad sad day

[Tyler]

I have a few close friends here who are literally from Egypt, they've been in the US for less than 4 months and are studying English here and they have enlightened me a lot about the situation.

First and foremost it is imperative to note that this "Day of Rage" as it was deemed by the American Media is a spin-off of the incident in Tunisia -- all of which was literally orgonized on Twitter....yes, Twitter. When word spread from Tunisia to Egypt, it also spread to Algeria Lebanon Jordan and Saudi Arabia, granted the things happening in the other countries pale in comparison to Egypt it really makes one wonder how long the people have been feeling this way. Mubarak is anything but a dictator, with that being said 30 years is a long time for any leader of any country to remain in power.

Let us also not forget the recent Coptic church bombings that happened, as someone previously mentioned the Coptics make up a minority of Egypt, roughly 12% maybe slightly less. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Baha'i, and Hindus make up the vast majority of religous people in Egypt to the greater extent. This I believe has less to do with religion than anything else...

What my friend told me is that there are special police forces, think kind of like SWAT, that if they do something you are to never, ever, question who what where when why. This police force has become more and more corrupt over the last few years (some believe they were involved in the church bombings [it was not al-Qaeda])

Egypt is a country that was at once home to the biggest city in the world [Cairo] and at some points they lagged behind in technology and at some points they were a step ahead in things such as infastructure, but my friends (two from Cairo one from a really small village near the Suez canal) told me that the Egyptian people are wanting to be able to embrace a more "westernized" culture and that is really what the riots are about. Equality for women, homosexuals, different faiths, handicapped people, being free to make their own life choices without living in fear of being thrown in jail by the "SWAT" men.

[Rani]

The latest news is that the Army has been dispatched to the streets but is remaining for the moment, completely neutral. They apparently were greeted with joy by the citizens which makes it less likely they would fire on the crowds even if asked by Mubarak to do so. The special police Tyler mentioned have apparently all been withdrawn. For the moment.

Correct me anyone who has another opinion................

I believe what would be best for the Egyptian people would be for Mubarak to remain as head of government but in a greatly modified role. I remember when the Berlin wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed. Chaos and starvation took over the entire Eastern region,. We literally spent billions air dropping food and basic supplies because when a government crumbles so does all the infrastructure. They still haven't fully recovered. I remember it and I wouldn't wish that on Egypt. It would be vastly preferable I believe if they could get what they need from the existing government structure but if they can't then not only is chaos going to result, but the entire region as risk. As Scotsman said - "global implications".

It seems the entire world is in upheaval. We're closer to anarchy here in the US than we've been in over 200 years. An Egyptian immigrant said on the news tonight that "when people are poor and without what they need for survival, their animal instincts take over and their instincts will cause them to do anything to survive". Governments just don't seem to get that. Here we're still running close to 23% "real" unemployment. And people are getting more and more desperate. As revolution looms in the rest of the world it becomes more a part of our potential closer to home. And yet we're still throwing names around, knocking each other down, and the desperation keeps escalating. Does it really take revolution on our own front lawns before we get it?

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Mubarak appointed Omar Suleiman,his intelligence chief as his vice president and the vice president would be his successor. Does it signal a hard line? Maybe not as the police seem to have fled and have been implicated in the looting. It may mean Mubarak would step down and leave a tough military man in charge. The people wouldn't buy that in Tunisia and the Egyptians aren't going to buy it either. Yes, Mubarak represents stability but if he goes down, it might be like dominos and include the Hashemites in Jordan and the Saudi royals, too. Israel isn't going to be too comfortable with that and America will do what Israel says, no matter what price we have to pay at the pumps. America can't straddle the fence much longer, the Arab world is fed up with broken promises and manipulation. When the smoke clears, you may still have status quo or you may have the democracy George Bush claimed would follow the Iraq war. But its not going to be any kind of democracy we recognize.Other forces are at work in Egypt too. Right now the military is neutral, but who will they back, or will they impose another military government? What about Mohammed al Baradei and his opposition party, how strong are they? Then there's the 800lb gorilla in the room the Muslim Brotherhood. Moderate,Islamic, stable but certainly no one in our Islamophobic government is going to back. Yet another chance for Obama to be historic. He's had more chances than most presidents but he seems reluctant to step up to the plate,much less hit a home run.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1296357113' post='496135']
Mubarak appointed Omar Suleiman,his intelligence chief as his vice president and the vice president would be his successor. Does it signal a hard line? Maybe not as the police seem to have fled and have been implicated in the looting. It may mean Mubarak would step down and leave a tough military man in charge. The people wouldn't buy that in Tunisia and the Egyptians aren't going to buy it either. Yes, Mubarak represents stability but if he goes down, it might be like dominos and include the Hashemites in Jordan and the Saudi royals, too. Israel isn't going to be too comfortable with that and[color="#FF0000"][b] America will do what Israel says, no matter what price we have to pay at the pumps[/b][/color]. America can't straddle the fence much longer, the Arab world is fed up with broken promises and manipulation. When the smoke clears, you may still have status quo or you may have the democracy George Bush claimed would follow the Iraq war. But its not going to be any kind of democracy we recognize.Other forces are at work in Egypt too. Right now the military is neutral, but who will they back, or will they impose another military government? What about Mohammed al Baradei and his opposition party, how strong are they? Then there's the 800lb gorilla in the room the Muslim Brotherhood. Moderate,Islamic, stable but certainly no one in our Islamophobic government is going to back. Yet another chance for Obama to be historic. [color="#4B0082"][b]He's had more chances than most presidents but he seems reluctant to step up to the plate,much less hit a home run.[/b][/color]
[/quote]

[b][color="#FF0000"]I know what you say is likely true, but I sincerely hope not. I give Israel no more credit than I do the most extreme Muslim nation. They have spent the last 50 years being bullies in the region. While I understand the need for a homeland, but they have taken it far beyond self-preservation. For every extremist action quoted there's a matching one from Israeli extremists. There is certainly reason to believe that our backing of the extremist nation Israel has become is part of the reason we're so hated in the Middle East. I firmly believe we should not be taking any side. We're talking civil war any way you look at it. Imaginary lines on a map don't determine a nation, despite what governments would have us believe, people do. So you have a government making war on it's own citizens on both sides of those imaginary lines. All because they've labeled them this or that. No nation has the right to support a government against it's own people. Otherwise everything we claim to stand for is nothing but lies and lip service. Yes, I know every government is mostly formed entirely of hypocrisy, but every now and then they either have to step up and live up to their own propaganda, or admit to becoming a police state. [/color][/b]

[b][color="#4B0082"]I believe with everything I am that everything happens for a reason. I don't agree with even remotely everything Pres. Obama has done and is doing. But as you said he has probably one of the greatest chances to influence stability in the Middle East. He gets beaten up a lot because people keep accusing him of apologizing for America's actions, but you know, maybe some apologies needed to be rendered because God knows we've made a mess out of our foreign policy for the most part. We've meddled, and we've schemed, and we'v e completely disregarding the rights and responsibilities of citizens around the world. And let's not even get into the CIA running loose and roughshod with almost no oversight because after all their charter prevents them operating on US soil. Yes, sure it does, and I still have that bridge for sale in the Arizona desert. I will say that I think it's not a matter of reluctance for Pres. Obama to step up, but he has to be very careful because he has exactly no clue who he might be negotiating with in Egypt before the end of his presidency. Could still be Mubarack, could be his successor, could be the Brotherhood, could be a gaping hole in the ground. So right now, keeping mum, and letting them work it out without overt pressure and interference from him, is quite possibly the smartest move he could possibly make at this point.[/color][/b]

'Rani