Cheesehead Revolution?

[mustafabey]

I just posted a blog entry on this event and thought I'd share it here. Briefly Democratic senators walked out on voting for a bill that would severely curtail teachers benefits.It appears that budget cuts is the next excuse to dip their greedy hands into our pockets. They got retirement monies in the housing bubble. They took away our liberties with the "patriot"act. They are gunning for unemployment insurance and social security and collective bargaining. They took advantage of the recession and its 10% unemployment to lower salaries everywhere. Obama,himself,just cut heating subsidies for the poor and Pell grant student loans. Education is under attack everywhere, and school budgets are getting slashed. All the while the celebrity intoxicated masses of America cheer loudly as their pockets are being picked. Minds are manipulated with hate and religion but this can't last forever. The thievery will eventually reach whats left of the middle class and hopefully they will react when they can no longer pay their cable bills. What the politicians don't realize, perhaps,is that unlike the brave Egyptians,Yemenis,Bahrainis,Jordanians,Libyans and Tunisians, most Americans are armed. Perhaps the Tea Party will throw off some of the racism and Republican control and morph into a true grassroots movement and join the Cheeseheads. Better dig out my old tie dye tee shirts.

[Rani]

I wanted to take a bit to think this through before posting. The situation in Wisconsin should worry every one. Every person receiving a living wage in the US today owes that wage to the power of collective bargaining. And the Governor is trying to completely eliminate collective bargaining. There's no one living today that is old enough to remember what workers rights were before the power of collective bargaining, but if you do a little historical research, it would appall you that it's being attacked now. It's one great step on reducing the American worker to 3rd world status where only the wealthy have the ability to own property and control all resources. It's a return to the likes of Tzarist Russia, where all work was provided by legally indentured serfs.

For any who doubt it, think about your own employer right now. The guy signing your paycheck. Do you trust him to pay you fairly and what you're worth out of the goodness of his heart? Do you? Even if your company isn't unionized, the threat of unionization makes your employer competitive with both wages and benefits. I come from the construction industry and if you want to see a contractor sweat, mention a union organizer anywhere within a mile of his office or job site. Figure out how much, even as a broad guess, what your wages cost your company. Now imagine how much of that your boss could put back in his pocket, if he could pay you nothing more than the federally mandated minimum wage? Let's do the math.......Let's use that federal wage of $7.25 I believe - California like many states is higher, so we don't always realize just how low the federal wage is.

Let's say a company of just 100 employees, earns an average of $50k per year. So his payroll is $5,000,000 per year. I don't know what payroll taxes are these days - it's been years since I process a payroll, but I do know that business generally claim benefits and taxes add 33% to the cost of every employee. So let's go with that and use: $5,0000,000 X 1.33 = $6,650,000. Now if all employees are reduced to mandatory minimum wage , wages are reduced to $1,612,000, or $1,612,000 X 1.33 = $2,143,960. So your boss could increase his profits by $4,506,040 by being able to reduce his wages to minimum national standard. $4.5 Million dollars straight into his pocket. Still think he's going to be on your side out of the goodness of his heart when $4.5 MILLION dollars every year back into profits? Over say 20 years we're talking, over $90 Million dollars. I don't care how much you like your boss, if you trust your boss that much, you're an idiot. How the hell do you think Rockefeller, and Kennedy, and Hilton, and all the others got to be wealthy? Out of being kind and fair, giving and compassionate?

We are returning to the age of the robber barons, and it's a stupid move. Yes, this and the next generation of barons will likely make billions, but what happens when the 2% of the population controls that wealth and denies it to 98% of the population? Revolution. Long, bloody, civil revolution. It's been proven over and over again throughout history. Russia. France. America. Pre-wall Germany. You cannot deprive the majority of the people the ability to improve and better themselves and not be destroyed by the people. It's also blind. Imagine any company. Every company. How would it function without it's workers? Could that guy sitting in the big corner office do it all himself? I'm sure he thinks he can, but really, he'd be closing his doors in less than a week if he lost all his workers. In fact, from the CEO stance, they actually need with expertise of their workers more than ever before.

In the past, a CEO became a CEO by working his way up through the ranks. He could do any job in the place because he'd done them all before. But we've now raised an entire generation of managers who don't know how to do anything but manage. They come straight out of college with their spreadsheets, and couldn't handle the actual job function if it bit them in the ass. They're all theory and business philosophy. No actual practical experience at all. Business, all business, will fail without the experience and expertise and know how of the very workers they seek to shortchange. And this is exactly what we're heading towards. And we're not alone.

I remember when I was a kid. I had a teacher in either the 2nd or 3rd grade, I can't remember exactly, but she gave us this exercise. To slowly bring our finger to touch our foreheads. She said correctly that we would feel it before we actually touched finger to forehead. She was right. We all did. When someone asked her why, she said that we hod no idea how powerful our minds were. That we create reality out of the power of our thoughts. That's now accepted generally. Positive thinking, focusing on what you want, etc. One idea is that when you focus you change your actions almost without realizing it to bring about what you envision., No hocus pocus involved. But have you ever noticed that it seems the dynamic of the environment around you seems to change as well? The moment you stop being stagnant about anything at all in your life, suddenly things start to move. Want a new job? Start working out. Better luck? Clean and rearrange your house. Movement creates momentum and change occurs. What do you think happens in the world when 98% of it's population are miserably unhappy?

There is huge unhappiness in the world right now. People in Egypt have been putting up with the same crap for 30 years. Suddenly seemingly out of nowhere revolution. The same in Tunisia, and Bahrain, spreading across the Middle East. And if you think that's just the problems of one 3rd world country after another, think again. Fully one fifth of American workers are unemployed with no safety net left. What do you think they're going to be doing with their time in the very near future? They have nothing to lose anymore. Their hope and ability to improve themselves and the lives of their children have been taken from them. Do you really think they're going to sit by and do nothing? Everything there will be a spark, and it will become a bonfire, and it will sweep across this country the same way it's sweeping across the Middle East right now. And it will not stop until they have restored their ability to improve their own lives.

They say that he who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it. Better check your history. All it takes it's one man with a torch, and a couple others who think he's got the right idea.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

How right you are Rani. Today I had visitor.He has some recreational property on the mountain across the road. He is planning to build a cabin and retire there. He is a fireman from Northern Virginia and his wife a teacher. We've talked before and he's very conservative and when he discovered where my views lie, he was very surprised. He stopped dropping by when he was on his property. That was during the campaign of 2008. His views are far right and he'd get along with one of our esteemed colleagues very well. Today he brought me a DVD he thought I'd like and we talked at length. This move to take away the benefits of public employees has scared him. All of a sudden he says that maybe the republicans don't have the answer and that fault lies with the Wall st crowd. He certainly hasn't become a liberal, but he felt that hand on his wallet and now its about survival not gay rights,abortion,impending Muslim invasion,impending Mexican invasion, whatever. With this guy,I always suspected, as I do with may rabid rightists today, that the hinge issue for many of republican base happens to be the color of our Presidents skin. Suddenly with his retirement benefits and social security under threat,he gets nervous. If it was just the unions, say the UAW, he agree with curtailing them, since is unionism is,in his mind, socialism,communism,marxism etc. But he's a public employee, thats always been a sacred cow, firemen, cops, teachers, etc. The undoing of the right may just well be their greed. It was easy to wipe out the poor with sub prime scandal, but now its the turn of the middle class to get fleeced and it just may a different story. We may a strong third party evolve, or may two, seeing as many the GOP and democrats have been bought off by the robber barons. Obama's financial policies certainly haven't been liberal and cutting heating oil subsidies but not touching foreign aid is cause to worry.
Its all about just what you outlined, reducing the worker to semi serfdom to increase your profit. Listening to the right wing talk show gang, you'll get an idea of the propaganda they spew out. How dangerous to increase the taxes of that 2%, how all the rights and benefits earned over the entire 20th century are nothing but entitlements handed out to freeloaders. I am capable of understanding many things, but I've never understood the stupidity of the average 21st century American manipulated by hate and fear. But hopefully I am wrong and America will awake before its too late. Nobody wants to see blood in the streets. Apparently Qaddafi is strafing the demonstrators with helicopters in Libya. Some will go easy and some are going to fall hard and take alot with them.
The other thing that concerns me is the apathy of the American people. Most people I know just don't care, don't follow world events and don't want to know. I remember well the sixties and early seventies, after i got home from Vietnam I was out in the streets for peace and civil rights. We were a connected generation in those days. Today, I don't know. I may be too isolated, to far back in the woods, too old to take the pulse of America's youth,but i sure remember 2 years ago that i had to nag a few of my 20 something friends to register to vote. Even the horrors of GW Bush wasn't enough to wake these people up.

[waterpipe]

Living in Wisconsin, I spent a week at the protests, and I am going back to Madison tomarrow after the snow ice and rain. Most of my friends are teachers, I am not in union, but our Governor has gone too far. His logic is that there are the haves and the have nots. Most of people in Wisconsin and Michigan have been placed into the have not catagory. Meaning their jobs are gone or their salaries haved. Walkers logic is to bust the union, so he can increase the have nots. Increasing the have nots only benefits the corporation because then instead of 5000 applicants for a low wage job now you have 10000 applying.
He should be looking for ways to keep people in work decreasing the have nots, not increasing them, so they can pay taxes and buy goods and reinvigorate the economy. The unions are the only big money left to the working class. Once you break them then you have basically only one party left. Walker can negotiate any time he wants, but it is not about salary it is about busting the unions, that is why people from all over the world are showing up at the capital doors. Slave labor is not far around the courner, and many recognize that freedom to negotiate collectively or individually will revert this country to the Hay Market Square days, fighting for safety, decent working hours, and a second to take a piss. These are dangerous times for the working class.

[Venger]

Yes there was a time when unions were necessary. But I have been told by teachers that they have paid more in union dues then they have gotten in raises. Unions have become organized crime. Pretending to be looking out for the little guy but getting fat themselves. I also have a friend in the auto manufacturing business and he is paid an obscene amount of money (98 dollars an hour) to watch a machine do its job. Its no wonder you can't afford a new car. As far as land ownership no one in America owns their own land you lease it from the government. If you doubt this in anyway don't pay your property taxes for a couple years and see who really owns that land. As for President Obama regardless of the color of his skin he is a fucking liar. I make approximately the same money i have made for the last four years and it is under 65,000 k a year my wife and I combined. We have one child and live in an apartment.For the last three years I have gotten a couple hundred back on my tax return. I claim zero as does my wife. This is the first year I am going to have to pay more than what was withheld. Meaning my taxes increased by about 500 dollars. So no new taxes on the working middle class LIAR.
Only increasing taxes on folks who make over 250,000k a year LIAR.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1298309694' post='498696']
Yes there was a time when unions were necessary. But I have been told by teachers that they have paid more in union dues then they have gotten in raises. Unions have become organized crime. Pretending to be looking out for the little guy but getting fat themselves. I also have a friend in the auto manufacturing business and he is paid an obscene amount of money (98 dollars an hour) to watch a machine do its job. Its no wonder you can't afford a new car. As far as land ownership no one in America owns their own land you lease it from the government. If you doubt this in anyway don't pay your property taxes for a couple years and see who really owns that land. As for President Obama regardless of the color of his skin he is a fucking liar. I make approximately the same money i have made for the last four years and it is under 65,000 k a year my wife and I combined. We have one child and live in an apartment.For the last three years I have gotten a couple hundred back on my tax return. I claim zero as does my wife. This is the first year I am going to have to pay more than what was withheld. Meaning my taxes increased by about 500 dollars. So no new taxes on the working middle class LIAR.
Only increasing taxes on folks who make over 250,000k a year LIAR.
Ray
[/quote]

I'm not going to disagree that there aren't abuses among the unions the same as there are in everything people are involved in. But the fact remains that your wages are a direct result of the power and pressure of collective bargaining. Tell me if you can, what other protection you have? The Federal Government? They think you need only $7.25 an hour.

'Rani

[Venger]

Actually I am a sub-contractor for the us government and get paid more than double that.
There was no bargaining. They offered a dollar amount that I thought was fair for my time.That why I don't have a minimum wage job. It would not be enough money for my time. There was a time when it was enough but as I got older my needs and wants changed. I have no degree and I have had 17-20 different jobs over the last 35 years. some paid more than others but at anytime I could have left for another job and did.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1298322652' post='498718']
Actually I am a sub-contractor for the us government and get paid more than double that.
There was no bargaining. They offered a dollar amount that I thought was fair for my time.That why I don't have a minimum wage job. It would not be enough money for my time. There was a time when it was enough but as I got older my needs and wants changed. I have no degree and I have had 17-20 different jobs over the last 35 years. some paid more than others but at anytime I could have left for another job and did.
Ray
[/quote]

But you're missing the point. Your wages are as high as they are because of the power of collective bargaining. It is the ONLY pressure that exists in order to bring wages above the minimum. Do you really think anyone, even the government, would give you more than the bare minimum if the competition of higher wages didn't force them to? Why would they give you more than they have to if they could put the difference back into their own pockets? Wouldn't YOU keep the extra for yourself and your family? Why would you expect them to do less?

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Yes, Ray its true about union abuse,too. I watched the restaurant union in New York City do some very shady things, And Obama, too, he's screwed me,too. I bought all the hope and change shit.Anybody looked good after Bush, we wanted to believe, but actually its one big fuckfest orgy to rip off the average American. There's no party politics about it, Democrats,Republicans,Unions,Wall st. corporate America,elements of the "Church", and just about everyone else is on a big feeding frenzy with our money. And,ya know what, there is absolutely no one is our corner, no one at all. The powers that once represented the working man, the Democrats, the unions have all joined in on the orgy. We are too numbed out by sports, celebrity culture,consumerism etc to even know were getting fucked. But people are beginning to wake up,hopefully before it collapses. American people have a good track record for getting themselves out of shit. That sure would surprise the crap outta the fat cats. The politicians keep us divided,feed us hate and fear and sooth us with fantasy.I'm beginning to think that Democarts and Republicans are just part of movie plot and the stars of the show are the Bushes and Obamas,Clintons and Glenn Beck. What we don't know,perhaps are the director and producer. Sure the hell are interesting times.

[Rani]

I have come to the conclusion that we need a more extreme, even radical, version of the Democratic Party. There is this disconnect between what liberals really want and what conservatives think we want. Liberals want government intrusion and spending curbed as much as conservatives do. The difference is where we believe the cuts should be made. We believe we should be spending on Medicare before wars. Unemployment before foreign aid. Social Security before global and corporate subsidies. If we pulled back every single dime spent unnecessarily outside of the direct support of the American people, we could fund human rights well into the 24th century without ever raising taxes. But no, instead we keep throwing money away on everything but our own citizens, putting them last on our priority list. This should not be. And part of the problem is when it comes to human rights and services, it gets all mixed up with this aura of peace and love and utopia. It's hard to be a hardliner and demand for ourselves when our heads are swirling with peace and love and too many retro scenes from hippie movies

As we have become more civilized in some ways, we're forgotten that all human rights had to earned through blood. Revolution was required for every one. No one gave it up willingly. No king or queen ever stepped onto a throne and declared the people should have more. No dictator, no government, no landed lord, ever gave up more to the people when it was a choice between enriching themselves and making someone else more comfortable. Our individual dreams of $100 million dollar mansions will always take precedence over your cottage in th woods. Such is human nature.

Why should every American not have property medical coverage? We could easily have given it to every citizen if we hadn't thrown $1.3 billion dollars at Mubarak year after year, couldn't we? And look how well that money was spent, huh? How about the money sent to Iran, Bahrain, Tunisia, and so on......?

Why should ever American not be able to own a home? Instead we gave $800 billion to banks to keep them in business despite the fact that they set homeowners up for failure with loans they knew in advance they'd never be able to repay. For that amount of money we could have funding Habitat for Humanity homes across the country many times over.

It's not that we want to keep funding social programs despite the deficit. We want them funded INSTEAD of those programs that help the American people not at all.

There is no justifiable reason for any American citizen in arguably the richest nation in the world to die of inadequate health coverage, or starvation, or freezing cold in the winter. Yes, we should be taking care of each other, and we can with the tax dollars we contribute now, if we just quit throwing it away elsewhere.

It's time to drop the peace and love. It's time to get pissed and yes, even extreme. We need a Tea Party style Democratic Party who will use the same tactics to make the conservative movement understand we want deficit reduction and government held responsible just as much as they do. We just believe that we should be using our great power and wealth to help our own. And then when every American citizen has everything they need to live long, and happy, and productive life, then and only then do we fund foreign aid and "luxury' programs that don't directly impact the heath and welfare of the American people. When the conservative movement understands we want the debt reduced just as much as they do while still protecting Americans, I think they'd be part of the solution. The people that is. Not the politicians. Because we all know they've long been bought and paid for by special interests.

I'm pretty sure it's going to take a revolution. The question is whether or not it's going to be vocal and determined but non-violent like Egypt? Or bloody like Libya.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Its up to the American people. The right has a giant propaganda machine courtesy of Ruppert Murdoch and the left ,the squabble. Your right Rani, but we have to do it ourselves. I don't have any faith in he American government, I have no faith in the 2 party system anymore, but I still have faith in the American people.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1298344697' post='498771']
Its up to the American people. The right has a giant propaganda machine courtesy of Ruppert Murdoch and the left ,the squabble. Your right Rani, but we have to do it ourselves. I don't have any faith in he American government, I have no faith in the 2 party system anymore, but I still have faith in the American people.
[/quote]

Yes, it is up to "We the People....". Both parties as they exist now are owned and operated by foreign and global interests. Anyone who has any doubt both the GOP and the DNC are cut from the same cloth, here's an article to read from my LinkedIn group.

[url="http://www.linkedin.com/news?viewArticle=&articleID=285813110&gid=791977&type=member&item=37267579&articleURL=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40565987/ns/business-going_green/&urlhash=ejvn"]http://www.linkedin.com/news?viewArticle=&articleID=285813110&gid=791977&type=member&item=37267579&articleURL=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40565987/ns/business-going_green/&urlhash=ejvn[/url]

'Rani

[Venger]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1298343688' post='498766']
I have come to the conclusion that we need a more extreme, even radical, version of the Democratic Party. There is this disconnect between what liberals really want and what conservatives think we want. Liberals want government intrusion and spending curbed as much as conservatives do. The difference is where we believe the cuts should be made. We believe we should be spending on Medicare before wars. Unemployment before foreign aid. Social Security before global and corporate subsidies. If we pulled back every single dime spent unnecessarily outside of the direct support of the American people, we could fund human rights well into the 24th century without ever raising taxes. But no, instead we keep throwing money away on everything but our own citizens, putting them last on our priority list. This should not be. And part of the problem is when it comes to human rights and services, it gets all mixed up with this aura of peace and love and utopia. It's hard to be a hardliner and demand for ourselves when our heads are swirling with peace and love and too many retro scenes from hippie movies

As we have become more civilized in some ways, we're forgotten that all human rights had to earned through blood. Revolution was required for every one. No one gave it up willingly. No king or queen ever stepped onto a throne and declared the people should have more. No dictator, no government, no landed lord, ever gave up more to the people when it was a choice between enriching themselves and making someone else more comfortable. Our individual dreams of $100 million dollar mansions will always take precedence over your cottage in th woods. Such is human nature.

Why should every American not have property medical coverage? We could easily have given it to every citizen if we hadn't thrown $1.3 billion dollars at Mubarak year after year, couldn't we? And look how well that money was spent, huh? How about the money sent to Iran, Bahrain, Tunisia, and so on......?

Why should ever American not be able to own a home? Instead we gave $800 billion to banks to keep them in business despite the fact that they set homeowners up for failure with loans they knew in advance they'd never be able to repay. For that amount of money we could have funding Habitat for Humanity homes across the country many times over.

It's not that we want to keep funding social programs despite the deficit. We want them funded INSTEAD of those programs that help the American people not at all.

There is no justifiable reason for any American citizen in arguably the richest nation in the world to die of inadequate health coverage, or starvation, or freezing cold in the winter. Yes, we should be taking care of each other, and we can with the tax dollars we contribute now, if we just quit throwing it away elsewhere.

It's time to drop the peace and love. It's time to get pissed and yes, even extreme. We need a Tea Party style Democratic Party who will use the same tactics to make the conservative movement understand we want deficit reduction and government held responsible just as much as they do. We just believe that we should be using our great power and wealth to help our own. And then when every American citizen has everything they need to live long, and happy, and productive life, then and only then do we fund foreign aid and "luxury' programs that don't directly impact the heath and welfare of the American people. When the conservative movement understands we want the debt reduced just as much as they do while still protecting Americans, I think they'd be part of the solution. The people that is. Not the politicians. Because we all know they've long been bought and paid for by special interests.

I'm pretty sure it's going to take a revolution. The question is whether or not it's going to be vocal and determined but non-violent like Egypt? Or bloody like Libya.

'Rani
[/quote]

as a libertarian I disagree with nearly every statement in this post. With the exception that our government is way off base from what the American people want. Spending needs to stop not change direction. people need to be responsible for themselves and their own well being. I don't want to have to pay for you or anybody else. I am just wanting to take care of me and mine. I am not so selfish that I am not willing to help (key words) HELP someone IN NEED temporarily to get them back on their feet but I refuse to support someone while I bust my ass to pay for what I have.health care,food,and a house are not rights. It has to be earned. Taxes are just a way of stealing legally.
socialism and communism are not the answer.
Ray

[mustafabey]

Yes we need to curb all the spending, but why is first order of business to take from the people? Why isn't the money we send overseas to bolster brutal dictatorships get the axe? Why are we still paying out subsidies to farmers, when most farming is agribusiness? The list goes on. We don't even know where the money goes. We know,when it comes to government contracts we get raped, remember those $7000 hammers and toilet seats. The fact that the Tea Party came out in support of cutting state employee benefits shows me that organization has been bought and paid for by lobbies and corporations. Look at the Iraq war for instance,Dick Cheney's company Halliburton got all the big contracts to support the troops and fix in the infrastructure. Thats the way we do business today and no coincidence either. The article Rani linked us to, shows how corrupt Harry Reid is. I am getting tired of all the smoke and mirrors being put up by the parties(all of them) to keep us busy with nonsense while we get stolen blind. They want to cut unemployment. What's going to happen to those people? Oh Limbaugh tells us there all freeloaders but we know better, we know people struggling or we are those people ourselves. No money is being allocated to retrain these unemployed, no money is allocated to create jobs. We are told that creating jobs is the responsibility of the business commmunity. But the longer the recession continues the less people will settle for to put food on the table. They are starving us into submission. Minimum wage and no benefits is going to be norm again, as it was in the beginning of the 20th century.
As long as we believe Fox news and Conservative radio, as long as we support pork crazed Liberal congressmen,as long as we don't go out and seek the truth, we are truly fucked.
The whole Middle East is changing and we are scratching our heads and arguing about bullshit, bullshit created to keep our minds off the truth.

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' timestamp='1298388136' post='498868']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1298343688' post='498766']
I have come to the conclusion that we need a more extreme, even radical, version of the Democratic Party. There is this disconnect between what liberals really want and what conservatives think we want. Liberals want government intrusion and spending curbed as much as conservatives do. The difference is where we believe the cuts should be made. We believe we should be spending on Medicare before wars. Unemployment before foreign aid. Social Security before global and corporate subsidies. If we pulled back every single dime spent unnecessarily outside of the direct support of the American people, we could fund human rights well into the 24th century without ever raising taxes. But no, instead we keep throwing money away on everything but our own citizens, putting them last on our priority list. This should not be. And part of the problem is when it comes to human rights and services, it gets all mixed up with this aura of peace and love and utopia. It's hard to be a hardliner and demand for ourselves when our heads are swirling with peace and love and too many retro scenes from hippie movies

As we have become more civilized in some ways, we're forgotten that all human rights had to earned through blood. Revolution was required for every one. No one gave it up willingly. No king or queen ever stepped onto a throne and declared the people should have more. No dictator, no government, no landed lord, ever gave up more to the people when it was a choice between enriching themselves and making someone else more comfortable. Our individual dreams of $100 million dollar mansions will always take precedence over your cottage in th woods. Such is human nature.

Why should every American not have property medical coverage? We could easily have given it to every citizen if we hadn't thrown $1.3 billion dollars at Mubarak year after year, couldn't we? And look how well that money was spent, huh? How about the money sent to Iran, Bahrain, Tunisia, and so on......?

Why should ever American not be able to own a home? Instead we gave $800 billion to banks to keep them in business despite the fact that they set homeowners up for failure with loans they knew in advance they'd never be able to repay. For that amount of money we could have funding Habitat for Humanity homes across the country many times over.

It's not that we want to keep funding social programs despite the deficit. We want them funded INSTEAD of those programs that help the American people not at all.

There is no justifiable reason for any American citizen in arguably the richest nation in the world to die of inadequate health coverage, or starvation, or freezing cold in the winter. Yes, we should be taking care of each other, and we can with the tax dollars we contribute now, if we just quit throwing it away elsewhere.

It's time to drop the peace and love. It's time to get pissed and yes, even extreme. We need a Tea Party style Democratic Party who will use the same tactics to make the conservative movement understand we want deficit reduction and government held responsible just as much as they do. We just believe that we should be using our great power and wealth to help our own. And then when every American citizen has everything they need to live long, and happy, and productive life, then and only then do we fund foreign aid and "luxury' programs that don't directly impact the heath and welfare of the American people. When the conservative movement understands we want the debt reduced just as much as they do while still protecting Americans, I think they'd be part of the solution. The people that is. Not the politicians. Because we all know they've long been bought and paid for by special interests.

I'm pretty sure it's going to take a revolution. The question is whether or not it's going to be vocal and determined but non-violent like Egypt? Or bloody like Libya.

'Rani
[/quote]

as a libertarian I disagree with nearly every statement in this post. With the exception that our government is way off base from what the American people want. Spending needs to stop not change direction. people need to be responsible for themselves and their own well being. I don't want to have to pay for you or anybody else. I am just wanting to take care of me and mine. I am not so selfish that I am not willing to help (key words) HELP someone IN NEED temporarily to get them back on their feet but I refuse to support someone while I bust my ass to pay for what I have.health care,food,and a house are not rights. It has to be earned. Taxes are just a way of stealing legally.
socialism and communism are not the answer.
Ray
[/quote]

Taking care of our own people is communism and socialism? Every compassionate leader in history from Jesus Christ to Mother Teresa would tell you the Me and mine only attitude is what's wrong with our wold today. Oh, and the Libertarian Party? The political party [u]you have to pay to join[/u]. That should tell you just what their intentions are. More smoke and mirrors and lies.

'Rani

[Rani]

Okay, Ray, let me try this again. I forget that no body is a mind reader, and unless I'm writing a War and Peace length novel, it's not easily and shortly explained what I'm thinking. But lets's do some more math and use easily rounded numbers and then see if I'm explaining better.

Let's say your household has $100k in income. You mentioned you live in an apartment. I'm going to assume it's a rented apartment. In the interest of easy numbers, let's say you pay 20% in taxes. $20,000. Out of that $20,000, it breaks down into 10%, or $2000 to your social security. Another 15% ($3000) goes towards the Department of Defense with another 15% ($3000) going to infrastructure like roads, etc. 20% goes to federal government "maintenance" - jobs, offices, etc., senate salaries, etc. ($4000), 15% is going to foreign aid ($3000), 10% to special projects otherwise known as earmarks ($3000), and the final 10% to various social services including your emergency room care if your uninsured, unemployment benefits if you lose your job, etc. ($2000)

Out of your remaining 80%, or $80,000, you pay rent, health insurance, along with food, clothing, and so on. But what if you didn't have to pay health insurance? What if instead of you giving $3000 to the DoD, you only gave them 5% or $1000 and the other $2,000 went to your families health insurance? Then what you now pay for your family for health insurance would allow you to add it to your rent payment and afford a mortgage. Or we could pull the entire 15% from foreign aid and add it to social services to allow you extended unemployment benefits in the case of say, a complete financial melt-down and you lost your job?

So you see what I'm saying? I get that every gets nervous at the idea that THEY might have to pay for EVERYONE else, but that's not the case. It's more of YOUR money going to support YOUR family and reducing YOUR tax burden. .By not sending it overseas to Mubarak, maybe you get to buy a house. Maybe you get to send your kids to private, better than public schools. It's about redistribution of your tax money, so it actually comes back to you and your family. Sure, everyone else gets a piece of the pie too, but they get it out of the tax money THEY pay. The bottom line is we're all in this together, aren't we? Or do you only drive on the roads you personally paid for? Am I making any sense?

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

Broke is broke. No $ to pay these public "servants" means something has to give.
Private sector has taken it in the arse for the last 3 years, time for the unions to get their turn at the whipping bench.

Fraudulent dr notes, and skipping school for their own gratification. Great example for the kids they are supposed to be teaching, I have zero respect for them, or anyone like them. They are losers.


Need firing, and replacing with people who are not frauds, and liars.

[TheScotsman]

Good grief.

My slow connection must be run by union workers.


By the time it finaly does something I have gotten impatient and clicked post again.


Sorry for being a dumb arse, and posting double... again.
One would think I would learn not to do that at some point. Edited February 22, 2011 by TheScotsman

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1298413702' post='498926']
Broke is broke. No $ to pay these public "servants" means something has to give.
Private sector has taken it in the arse for the last 3 years, time for the unions to get their turn at the whipping bench.

Fraudulent dr notes, and skipping school for their own gratification. Great example for the kids they are supposed to be teaching, I have zero respect for them, or anyone like them. They are losers.


Need firing, and replacing with people who are not frauds, and liars.
[/quote]

Scotsman, the union already agreed to salary reductions. Nobody, even the teachers themselves, are arguing with paying their own insurance, etc. It's the collective bargaining threat that is causing the protests. You have often said here you're a business owner. Let me ask you honestly....... Would YOU give your employees more than the federally mandated wage if you didn't have to?

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1298413702' post='498926']
Broke is broke. No $ to pay these public "servants" means something has to give.
Private sector has taken it in the arse for the last 3 years, time for the unions to get their turn at the whipping bench.

Fraudulent dr notes, and skipping school for their own gratification. Great example for the kids they are supposed to be teaching, I have zero respect for them, or anyone like them. They are losers.


Need firing, and replacing with people who are not frauds, and liars.
[/quote]

Whats broke is the system. There's money, but were is it going that it can't take care of basics. Granted Scotty, there's a lot of waste and idleness in government workers. There's lots of union abuse. there's no $ for public programs because those monies are being diverted to private interests, so the government no longer serves the people but serves the whims of a very small minority that uses your tax dollars to forward their own agendas. We still have the vote, and if we can see thru the bullshit,the smoke and mirrors and the double talk and find a voice to express it, the American people can save this country. There are very few people out there today who 1. can be trusted and 2. tell the truth,so it behooves us to use the wonderful technology at our fingertips to discover the truth. Don't get your info from one source. I get news from CNN but I get news from al Jazeera. I know Cnn has agendas and so does al Jazeera, but somewhere in there is truth.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1298418485' post='498951']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1298413702' post='498926']
Broke is broke. No $ to pay these public "servants" means something has to give.
Private sector has taken it in the arse for the last 3 years, time for the unions to get their turn at the whipping bench.

Fraudulent dr notes, and skipping school for their own gratification. Great example for the kids they are supposed to be teaching, I have zero respect for them, or anyone like them. They are losers.


Need firing, and replacing with people who are not frauds, and liars.
[/quote]

Scotsman, the union already agreed to salary reductions. Nobody, even the teachers themselves, are arguing with paying their own insurance, etc. It's the collective bargaining threat that is causing the protests. You have often said here you're a business owner. Let me ask you honestly....... Would YOU give your employees more than the federally mandated wage if you didn't have to?

'Rani
[/quote]


Ummm... Yes, I do.

If I paid fed min wage I would never get decent craftsmen, much less keep them for any sort of time.


I am the low wage worker in this crowd!

Although, at this point, I am completely affraid that an economic surge would leave me needing help, and that would force me into temp workers. No way I would sign on to hiring full time workers with the changes in costs. No way I would ever even entertain union anything, anyhow, for any reason, any way, ever.... period.:smiley-angry021:

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1298432606' post='498979']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1298418485' post='498951']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1298413702' post='498926']
Broke is broke. No $ to pay these public "servants" means something has to give.
Private sector has taken it in the arse for the last 3 years, time for the unions to get their turn at the whipping bench.

Fraudulent dr notes, and skipping school for their own gratification. Great example for the kids they are supposed to be teaching, I have zero respect for them, or anyone like them. They are losers.


Need firing, and replacing with people who are not frauds, and liars.
[/quote]

Scotsman, the union already agreed to salary reductions. Nobody, even the teachers themselves, are arguing with paying their own insurance, etc. It's the collective bargaining threat that is causing the protests. You have often said here you're a business owner. Let me ask you honestly....... Would YOU give your employees more than the federally mandated wage if you didn't have to?

'Rani
[/quote]


Ummm... Yes, I do.

If I paid fed min wage I would never get decent craftsmen, much less keep them for any sort of time.


I am the low wage worker in this crowd!

Although, at this point, I am completely affraid that an economic surge would leave me needing help, and that would force me into temp workers. No way I would sign on to hiring full time workers with the changes in costs. No way I would ever even entertain union anything, anyhow, for any reason, any way, ever.... period.:smiley-angry021:
[/quote]

Ahhhhh, but you prove my point perhaps unintentionally. You pay your workers more than minimum wage because of the competition against higher wages elsewhere. But without collective bargaining, there would be no higher wages elsewhere.

;Rani

[TheScotsman]

Competition? No, this is northern tundrasota, in the winter. I would likely have little trouble finding people willing to work for 1/2 of what I spend. I consider paying someone in proportion to what they produce to be an investment in my sanity. In the end, it pays off. Not so much in the fact they can look for something paying more, but because when anyone sees the gain in their own wallet for their increased knowledge, abilities, and motivation, they do things right, and put forth the quality of work I expect. Loyalty costs money. I came to the conclusion long ago, that if I wanted to sit and surf the hookah forum, play with cars, fly around the county, go shoot a few holes in paper, or build a boat while my guys did most of the work to pay for that, they have to be properly incentivized...

Ya, I know this part sounds silly, but throughout my life, every time I got cheap, and hosed someone over a few bucks, it came back and chewed my arse off in short order.

While I see your point, and it may be valid in some industries, at some point in the past, the wisc teachers could hardly go find something paying more... There is no one competing with the state for the same employees, in the same positions. They have used collective bargaining, and the threat of a strike in order to hold-up the taxpayers, and burglarize the state treasury. Now that it's empty, and the unions see their power diminishing at the private level, they are making a stand in the single most overboard-liberal state they can find. Hope they go down in flames.


Those who can do something, do it... those that can't go into teaching-and I think I am seeing proof of it.

[waterpipe]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1298041063' post='498326']
I just posted a blog entry on this event and thought I'd share it here. Briefly Democratic senators walked out on voting for a bill that would severely curtail teachers benefits.It appears that budget cuts is the next excuse to dip their greedy hands into our pockets. They got retirement monies in the housing bubble. They took away our liberties with the "patriot"act. They are gunning for unemployment insurance and social security and collective bargaining. They took advantage of the recession and its 10% unemployment to lower salaries everywhere. Obama,himself,just cut heating subsidies for the poor and Pell grant student loans. Education is under attack everywhere, and school budgets are getting slashed. All the while the celebrity intoxicated masses of America cheer loudly as their pockets are being picked. Minds are manipulated with hate and religion but this can't last forever. The thievery will eventually reach whats left of the middle class and hopefully they will react when they can no longer pay their cable bills. What the politicians don't realize, perhaps,is that unlike the brave Egyptians,Yemenis,Bahrainis,Jordanians,Libyans and Tunisians, most Americans are armed. Perhaps the Tea Party will throw off some of the racism and Republican control and morph into a true grassroots movement and join the Cheeseheads. Better dig out my old tie dye tee shirts.
[/quote]

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1298439743' post='498991']
Competition? No, this is northern tundrasota, in the winter. I would likely have little trouble finding people willing to work for 1/2 of what I spend. I consider paying someone in proportion to what they produce to be an investment in my sanity. In the end, it pays off. Not so much in the fact they can look for something paying more, but because when anyone sees the gain in their own wallet for their increased knowledge, abilities, and motivation, they do things right, and put forth the quality of work I expect. Loyalty costs money. I came to the conclusion long ago, that if I wanted to sit and surf the hookah forum, play with cars, fly around the county, go shoot a few holes in paper, or build a boat while my guys did most of the work to pay for that, they have to be properly incentivized...

Ya, I know this part sounds silly, but throughout my life, every time I got cheap, and hosed someone over a few bucks, it came back and chewed my arse off in short order.

While I see your point, and it may be valid in some industries, at some point in the past, the wisc teachers could hardly go find something paying more... There is no one competing with the state for the same employees, in the same positions. They have used collective bargaining, and the threat of a strike in order to hold-up the taxpayers, and burglarize the state treasury. Now that it's empty, and the unions see their power diminishing at the private level, they are making a stand in the single most overboard-liberal state they can find. Hope they go down in flames.


Those who can do something, do it... those that can't go into teaching-and I think I am seeing proof of it.
[/quote]

I completely understand and even agree with what you're saying. But where the pressure of collective bargaining comes into play is that without it, EVERYONE would be at minimum wages. So you'd have the same great workers, you'd just be paying them less. A lot less because wages would be standardized at the federal minimum without collective bargaining having raised wages higher over time. And they'd stay because they'd be getting the very same slave wages for any other employer. You see the reason behind paying them responsibly based on the wages offered at this time and place. What I'm trying to point out is that without the raising of wages overall through collective bargaining, everyone below the level of CEO would be working for minimum wage. And if collective bargaining and the power of unity is made illegal, then wages will drop slowly under we're making no more than any other 3rd world nation worker. There's already proof of what I'm saying. Over the last two years, the top 2% actually increased their wealth by 30% on average, while working class actually lost ground and income.

As far as teachers are concerned, I have really mixed emotions about teachers. They do have a tendency towards feeling very entitled. We had strikes all over California when they lowered teacher wages in several counties. Well, people aren't working at all, and now they have to feel the pain as well. So nobody paid much attention to their protests and wages were lowered. They did have to come up with more money for their health insurance and pensions. However, having been a public employee I can assure you their pensions are not free to begin with despite the propaganda to the contrary. They pay into a public retirement account instead of social security. Same amount of money gets taken out, but going into different account,. And if you're a public employee all of your working life, you don't get social security at all. Social security isn't available to public employees who have not worked at least 5 years in the private sector. Maybe more now, but several years ago the requirement was 5 years. But back to teachers......

In California we had little sympathy because our overall unemployment is so high to begin with, and secondly we have the highest paid teachers in the nation. And they continually claim to be underpaid. I disagree. I think teachers are fairly paid for t[u]eaching.[/u] The problem is teaching doesn't consist anymore of standing in front of a class and teaching proven class documentation. We now expect them to babysit and discipline our children. Parents are putting way too much parenting into the hands of teachers. We are expecting public school systems to raise our children. And we;re wondering why our educational scores are dropping like hot rocks. Parents not doing anything for their kids educationally except the bare minimum to avoid being called to leave work for a parent-teacher conference. So I personally think our entire educational system is shot to hell and needs to be revamped, and yes, part of the revamping needs to be getting rid of those teachers who aren't performing. But in return we need to stop asking them to do more than teach.

But what's happening in Wisconsin is still throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Sure unions have problems and abuses. So does private industry. Fix the problems. Don't damage the entire working class by removing one of the last protections we have towards a fair and living wage.

'Rani