No Fly Zone For Libya

[mustafabey]

This has been running around in my mind for a bit. The neocons(Wolfowitz rose from the dead) want intervention.SecDef Gates says it would be difficult, that the armed forces are too stetched, that one aircraft carrier group isn't enough. Yet,if oil prices go any higher we are going to go right back into an economic slump. There' talk of African Union intervention, but there track record is abysmal. The UN, Nato? More abysmal.Yet Qaddafi is commiting war crimes and lots of innocents are dying because he's lost a grip on reality. As a liberally oriented person , I tend not to advocate intervention, yet something inside me thinks we need to do something. What are your thoughts?

[Chreees]

Um... I think we sure do know how to choose 'em. Lots more war crimes and other shit going on in Libya than there were and are in Afghanistan or Iraq, from what I'm to understand. Do I think we should go into Libya? Hell to the nah. I think we should get our greedy little asses out of ALL of these countries, because how do we decide which countries to go into and which ones to stay away from? It's a thin line. It's a double standard; look at Darfur. But oh well. I think we should just leave everyone alone; protect our own borders. That way countries won't always be so pissed off at us. Yes, it sucks what's happening to those people in Libya, but we can't go around policing the world. It's up to the people of Libya to liberate themselves.

[TheScotsman]

An air exclusion zone would be an expensive proposition to begin with, and in the end I don't think the admin has the balls to pull it off to even the slightest resemblance of a successful op. PEBO pulled all naval air assets from the area as one of his first actions before his world apology tour... how sweet is that. Nothing there to do anything with! 2 CG's are theater-bound, but are a week from being at the edge of operational range.

The Chinese have a type 71 amphibious assault boat presumed bound for Libya... what fecking side are they supporting?

Libyan defenses consisted of mostly old junk. A handful of Gammon, grails, and zoos could make overflight expensive, but that old bofers canon they keep showing on CNN is not a threat to US air assets.

Some analysts think US/UK/European involvement would lead to an all-out war. Not sure how that would be a whole lot different than what is going on there right now.


I don't think we need to be in that mess. We don't have allot of hardware sitting about ready to go, damage to world economy is going to be high, and we don't have a president with the nuts to go in and win for either side.

[mustafabey]

The military brass seem reluctant to want to get involved.Some retired 4 star on CNN got into what it would take asset wise to pull it off. 1 aircraft carrier group ain't enough. We think post Iraq war 1 no fly zones but then Saddam had no air assets by then.There are some hawks, Wolfowitz surfaced to chime in, and he was partly responsible for the brilliant victory in Iraq together with Rumsfeld. Had alot of balls to even open his mouth. Most of the Arab world wouldn't be happy with more US involvement, They feel its all oil and no compassion,more imperialism. Turkey is very much against it, and have withdrawn from our shpere of influence especially after another brilliant victory of Israeli spec ops troops on that Turkish freighter. But the pressure is on. Oil companies want a quick end to this shit. If Saudi goes, there goes a whole lot. Israel is terrified that they'll all turn fundamentalist and upset status quo.We cry guilt over not intervening in Rwanda and letting 800,000 Tutsis in 94,or is that just an excuse to justify intervention. And we can't forget the third brilliant v ictory of our forces in 93 in Somalia on what began as a humanitarian mission. Obama's probably wishing he was Rahm Emanuel's chief of staff right about now. I doubt if theres a military bone in Mr. Obama's body and I doubt if there any military geniuses left in the Pentagon either.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1299381723' post='500412']
The military brass seem reluctant to want to get involved.Some retired 4 star on CNN got into what it would take asset wise to pull it off. 1 aircraft carrier group ain't enough. We think post Iraq war 1 no fly zones but then Saddam had no air assets by then.There are some hawks, Wolfowitz surfaced to chime in, and he was partly responsible for the brilliant victory in Iraq together with Rumsfeld. Had alot of balls to even open his mouth. Most of the Arab world wouldn't be happy with more US involvement, They feel its all oil and no compassion,more imperialism. Turkey is very much against it, and have withdrawn from our shpere of influence especially after another brilliant victory of Israeli spec ops troops on that Turkish freighter. But the pressure is on. Oil companies want a quick end to this shit. If Saudi goes, there goes a whole lot. Israel is terrified that they'll all turn fundamentalist and upset status quo.We cry guilt over not intervening in Rwanda and letting 800,000 Tutsis in 94,or is that just an excuse to justify intervention. And we can't forget the third brilliant v ictory of our forces in 93 in Somalia on what began as a humanitarian mission. Obama's probably wishing he was Rahm Emanuel's chief of staff right about now. I doubt if theres a military bone in Mr. Obama's body and I doubt if there any military geniuses left in the Pentagon either.
[/quote]

It seems we are sharing the same reality for once.

That is pretty damn frightening for one of us.

[Rani]

According to the latest reports, NATO and Capitol Hill are edging towards getting involved. I'm so fucking tired of these idiots in DC. Unemployment numbers aren't really dropping, it's just the 4th and final tier falling off the reports. We still have almost 1/5th of the country unemployed, and millions more underemployed. We still have foreclosures going on by the thousands. We still have people with no health insurance going to the emergency room for the common cold and everybody else having to pay for it. Then there's the border issues, gay marriage, the Wisconsin mess, and loonies openly shooting our politicians in public. Could we just cut it the fuck off and take care of our own county for a goddamn change? If NATO wants to intervene, then let NATO anti-up. Leave our asses out of it.

Everybody needs to write the White House and every one of their elected representative and tell them to back the fuck off.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1299552799' post='500598']
According to the latest reports, NATO and Capitol Hill are edging towards getting involved. I'm so fucking tired of these idiots in DC. Unemployment numbers aren't really dropping, it's just the 4th and final tier falling off the reports. We still have almost 1/5th of the country unemployed, and millions more underemployed. We still have foreclosures going on by the thousands. We still have people with no health insurance going to the emergency room for the common cold and everybody else having to pay for it. Then there's the border issues, gay marriage, the Wisconsin mess, and loonies openly shooting our politicians in public. Could we just cut it the fuck off and take care of our own county for a goddamn change? If NATO wants to intervene, then let NATO anti-up. Leave our asses out of it.

Everybody needs to write the White House and every one of their elected representative and tell them to back the fuck off.

'Rani
[/quote]

They won't listen, they are bought and paid for. And there masters want more, hence all the cuts going down in the social sphere. Yes,looks like all the chatter is pointing to a no fly zone, it will be NATO led. That means American with a few other nations providing candy bars. We can't do UN as Russia,China and Turkey are very against this. meanwhile oil speculators are having a massive orgy blowing up another bubble. Interesting I had my dose of conservative talk radio yesterday. One Glenn Beck sub was advocating removing oil from the Wall st casino. I was quite surprised. It seems the strategy for the right is make sure economic recovery is slow to non existant so they use this to eject Obama in 2012,but money issues are beginning to effect their base. They keep telling union workers that although the workers are "patriots" they have to realize that the unions represent communism in its most evil form, so as a "patriot" youre going to have to give up some things to defeat the commies. Racism and hate may go so far as a political strategy, but once the hand is felt in the wallet, then its a different matter.As far as the Dems are concerned,they dance and jump around so much that you never quite know where they stand. Sometimes I really like Ron Paul's brand of isolationism, but I doubt if its possible, and probably just yet another reaction to globalisation. The fact is we are more and more becoming a world community and with global economics more cooperation is going to be necessary. But where, the UN is joke. Its frozen in 1945, with echoes of Bretton Woods driving the global economy.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1299598947' post='500658']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1299552799' post='500598']
According to the latest reports, NATO and Capitol Hill are edging towards getting involved. I'm so fucking tired of these idiots in DC. Unemployment numbers aren't really dropping, it's just the 4th and final tier falling off the reports. We still have almost 1/5th of the country unemployed, and millions more underemployed. We still have foreclosures going on by the thousands. We still have people with no health insurance going to the emergency room for the common cold and everybody else having to pay for it. Then there's the border issues, gay marriage, the Wisconsin mess, and loonies openly shooting our politicians in public. Could we just cut it the fuck off and take care of our own county for a goddamn change? If NATO wants to intervene, then let NATO anti-up. Leave our asses out of it.

Everybody needs to write the White House and every one of their elected representative and tell them to back the fuck off.

'Rani
[/quote]

They won't listen, they are bought and paid for. And there masters want more, hence all the cuts going down in the social sphere. Yes,looks like all the chatter is pointing to a no fly zone, it will be NATO led. That means American with a few other nations providing candy bars. We can't do UN as Russia,China and Turkey are very against this. meanwhile oil speculators are having a massive orgy blowing up another bubble. Interesting I had my dose of conservative talk radio yesterday. One Glenn Beck sub was advocating removing oil from the Wall st casino. I was quite surprised. It seems the strategy for the right is make sure economic recovery is slow to non existant so they use this to eject Obama in 2012,but money issues are beginning to effect their base. They keep telling union workers that although the workers are "patriots" they have to realize that the unions represent communism in its most evil form, so as a "patriot" youre going to have to give up some things to defeat the commies. Racism and hate may go so far as a political strategy, but once the hand is felt in the wallet, then its a different matter.As far as the Dems are concerned,they dance and jump around so much that you never quite know where they stand. Sometimes I really like Ron Paul's brand of isolationism, but I doubt if its possible, and probably just yet another reaction to globalisation. The fact is we are more and more becoming a world community and with global economics more cooperation is going to be necessary. But where, the UN is joke. Its frozen in 1945, with echoes of Bretton Woods driving the global economy.
[/quote]

Well they certainly won't listen if we don't say anything at all. I'm hearing from troops deployed currently that even they are fed up with being shipped all over the damned world to wars we can't possibly win.When the troops start publicly posting on bulletin boards everywhere that they're fed up and it's time to end this crap, Washington really better start listening. The last thing they need is an unhappy military firmly on the side of unhappy citizens. We get to that point, they might as well paint targets on each others backs and keep an extra supply of panties in the congressional offices.

'Rani

[antouwan]

call me crazy but here's my plan:

announce involvement - most of gedaffi's forces are defecting or have already anyway if they know we plan on striking that may..."persuade" some people who are sitting on the fence

no boots on the ground - we don't have them

attack - cruise missile strikes/precision bombing on all of their known anti-air installations and neutralize their air forces while they are still on the ground - a la israel 1967

call NATO - didn't the spanish pull out of Iraq already? i'm sure they can spare some of their forces; no sense in letting all that equipment get rusty

maintain - call it operation level playing field if you want. make sure that no anti-aircraft installations be erected, and make sure there are no more air-to-surface attacks being perpetrated by government forces against the civilians.

maintain (part b ) - let the people figure it out. after all, this is a fundamentally libyan affair.

the people are revolting, the army is going awol; clearly, there's a timer ticking for gedaffi, i think he's just nuts enough to have them "i'll take as many of them down with me as i can" mentality - so stop him. not to mention, since gedaffi only has so much time left, let's not pull an egypt round 2 and be "on the wrong side of history" again - whichever brilliant dumbass coined that one...

[mustafabey]

Now they are talking a "no drive zone" blow Qaddafi's vehicles off the roads,but how ya gonna tell which side is which as the rebs have Libyan military equipment. The US military is making noises that shows its reluctant to go in,SecDef Gates said awhile ago a ground war is not a thing we should do. Does that mean boots on the ground?What the hell were British SAS troops doing there,they weren't wanted. I hear people saying how difficult a no fly zone casn be to set up. Does this mean reluctance? Yers we could cruise missle the shit out his assets, it might scare the crap out of them. If our actions can convince the loyalists in Qaddafi's military that its a losing cause, then someone might act. He has divided power so much that even one of his sons can't amass enough power to take over.And once he's gone in that kind of scenario, then its war between sons, like the old Ottoman empire,before they locked up all the heirs in the seraglio. Of course, you could simply take oil off of the Wall st casino and end speculation. Its the Europeans who need Libyan oil. And what olf Arab league, the OIC, etc, has anyone heard from them? Of course hard line Arab dictators and kings aren't going to go for that kind of a solution. I'm sure Bashar al Assad wants his military very close by. Arm the rebels? It took 10 years to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan, its still not at peaace plus that methodology spawned al Qaeda. But if something is to be done,then it must be done soon. All you hear from the adminstration regarding both Libya and oil prices is that everything is on the table. We ain't gonna be much help on the table. But what would American involvement mean to the Arab world who already have no trust in our imperialist involvements in there land. Some Arab nations want involvement,mostly the Gulf states,but whats Saudi Arabia's stance on all this?And the final question, can America even afford any of this, seeing as our debt ceiling is a issue.

[mustafabey]

Morning brain fart. The rebels in eastern part of Libya have formede a government of sorts, the National Transitional Council. The United States, the UN, Nato'the EU and any other interested parties should recognize this government formally. Establish some kind of diplomatic presence. This would legitimize these people,make it far easier to supply aid to the soveriegn government of Libya and brand Qaddafi as the rebel.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1299686580' post='500753']
Now they are talking a "no drive zone" blow Qaddafi's vehicles off the roads,but how ya gonna tell which side is which as the rebs have Libyan military equipment. The US military is making noises that shows its reluctant to go in,SecDef Gates said awhile ago a ground war is not a thing we should do. Does that mean boots on the ground?What the hell were British SAS troops doing there,they weren't wanted. I hear people saying how difficult a no fly zone casn be to set up. Does this mean reluctance? Yers we could cruise missle the shit out his assets, it might scare the crap out of them. If our actions can convince the loyalists in Qaddafi's military that its a losing cause, then someone might act. He has divided power so much that even one of his sons can't amass enough power to take over.And once he's gone in that kind of scenario, then its war between sons, like the old Ottoman empire,before they locked up all the heirs in the seraglio. Of course, you could simply take oil off of the Wall st casino and end speculation. Its the Europeans who need Libyan oil. And what olf Arab league, the OIC, etc, has anyone heard from them? Of course hard line Arab dictators and kings aren't going to go for that kind of a solution. I'm sure Bashar al Assad wants his military very close by. Arm the rebels? It took 10 years to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan, its still not at peaace plus that methodology spawned al Qaeda. But if something is to be done,then it must be done soon. All you hear from the adminstration regarding both Libya and oil prices is that everything is on the table. We ain't gonna be much help on the table. But what would American involvement mean to the Arab world who already have no trust in our imperialist involvements in there land. Some Arab nations want involvement,mostly the Gulf states,but whats Saudi Arabia's stance on all this?And the final question, can America even afford any of this, seeing as our debt ceiling is a issue.
[/quote]

No drive zone, ya, that is feasible... Must have come out of the mouth of an NPR of CNN news face. Second time I heard it today, and still pretty funny.

US CAS assets are pitiful at this point. Most of our a/oa-10's are either deactivated or involved in either current combat deployment, or the refit to 10-C variation. One sitting on their asses in Korea, but pulling them leaves ROK with no "kick-the-tires-N-light-the-fires" ground attack aircraft. Just what would we do to undertake an area denial operation with any sort of effectiveness???? Launch pumpkins at them? While it's mostly junk, the Libyan AAA is more than effective against delicate fast movers. I have seen a bunch of manports in the raw feeds floating around the airwaves. Pretty well makes a CAS mission with a hornet, or 16 a good way to take a silk-dive. Rotor wing is a no-way, too vulnerable, and just who is allowing a US/GB FARP in Libya? No way the rebels would allow that, and if they did, gaddafi would use that as a major propaganda event. There WILL be a bunch of FF problems, both sides look the same, and no one has a clue who are the targets! There is virtually no way to establish any operational communications with rebel units. I can hear the propaganda now! Besides, in the event any craft was damaged, or just fell apart, how are we going to mount a rescue?

What a mess.
Morocco looks like it's getting ready to fold.


You know, it's time to get out the red marker, and circle the date on the Calander.
I find myself in complete agreement with Pres Obama on this - We need to sit it out right at this moment.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1299703613' post='500791']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1299686580' post='500753']
Now they are talking a "no drive zone" blow Qaddafi's vehicles off the roads,but how ya gonna tell which side is which as the rebs have Libyan military equipment. The US military is making noises that shows its reluctant to go in,SecDef Gates said awhile ago a ground war is not a thing we should do. Does that mean boots on the ground?What the hell were British SAS troops doing there,they weren't wanted. I hear people saying how difficult a no fly zone casn be to set up. Does this mean reluctance? Yers we could cruise missle the shit out his assets, it might scare the crap out of them. If our actions can convince the loyalists in Qaddafi's military that its a losing cause, then someone might act. He has divided power so much that even one of his sons can't amass enough power to take over.And once he's gone in that kind of scenario, then its war between sons, like the old Ottoman empire,before they locked up all the heirs in the seraglio. Of course, you could simply take oil off of the Wall st casino and end speculation. Its the Europeans who need Libyan oil. And what olf Arab league, the OIC, etc, has anyone heard from them? Of course hard line Arab dictators and kings aren't going to go for that kind of a solution. I'm sure Bashar al Assad wants his military very close by. Arm the rebels? It took 10 years to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan, its still not at peaace plus that methodology spawned al Qaeda. But if something is to be done,then it must be done soon. All you hear from the adminstration regarding both Libya and oil prices is that everything is on the table. We ain't gonna be much help on the table. But what would American involvement mean to the Arab world who already have no trust in our imperialist involvements in there land. Some Arab nations want involvement,mostly the Gulf states,but whats Saudi Arabia's stance on all this?And the final question, can America even afford any of this, seeing as our debt ceiling is a issue.
[/quote]

No drive zone, ya, that is feasible... Must have come out of the mouth of an NPR of CNN news face. Second time I heard it today, and still pretty funny.

US CAS assets are pitiful at this point. Most of our a/oa-10's are either deactivated or involved in either current combat deployment, or the refit to 10-C variation. One sitting on their asses in Korea, but pulling them leaves ROK with no "kick-the-tires-N-light-the-fires" ground attack aircraft. Just what would we do to undertake an area denial operation with any sort of effectiveness???? Launch pumpkins at them? While it's mostly junk, the Libyan AAA is more than effective against delicate fast movers. I have seen a bunch of manports in the raw feeds floating around the airwaves. Pretty well makes a CAS mission with a hornet, or 16 a good way to take a silk-dive. Rotor wing is a no-way, too vulnerable, and just who is allowing a US/GB FARP in Libya? No way the rebels would allow that, and if they did, gaddafi would use that as a major propaganda event. There WILL be a bunch of FF problems, both sides look the same, and no one has a clue who are the targets! There is virtually no way to establish any operational communications with rebel units. I can hear the propaganda now! Besides, in the event any craft was damaged, or just fell apart, how are we going to mount a rescue?

What a mess.
Morocco looks like it's getting ready to fold.


You know, it's time to get out the red marker, and circle the date on the Calander.
I find myself in complete agreement with Pres Obama on this - We need to sit it out right at this moment.
[/quote]

Where is your info on Morocco coming from? I know that Mohammed VI just announced some rather sweeping reforms which appear to be more than just cosmetic. The royal family, the king especially is held inhigh regard in Morocco being a desendant of the Prophet.Mustafa Abdul Jalil the head of the Libyan rebel government is begging for a no fly zone now. I reckon Qaddafi has finally got his army together and are shelling the shit out of the rebels. It doesn't look good in Ras Lanaf. But then its all politics.

[TheScotsman]

Well, I guess we don't have to wonder about an exclusion area, the UN voted in favour of it. At the moment, both UK, and French aircraft are inbound, with the USA providing logistical support.

Gaddafi has said he will retaliate with strikes against commercial shipping, and air targets on and over the med.


Might work... I think it's a stupid mistake to get wrapped up in another mid-east mess.

[Chreees]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1300404413' post='501927']
Well, I guess we don't have to wonder about an exclusion area, the UN voted in favour of it. At the moment, both UK, and French aircraft are inbound, with the USA providing logistical support.

Gaddafi has said he will retaliate with strikes against commercial shipping, and air targets on and over the med.


Might work... [b]I think it's a stupid mistake to get wrapped up in another mid-east mess.[/b]
[/quote]

Couldn't agree with you more.

[mustafabey]

Somebody put alot of work in hammering this all out. For once the "great powers" didn't act without regional approval. The Arab league is behind this. It does not appear that the US is going to be necessarily the leader of this action. The French seemed to take that role in the UN. So maybe it will be a Nato op. If this works its brilliant. America doesn't appear to be meddling in the region, ala Iraq. Arab nations are on board. The 5 abstaining powers didn,t vote no, China nad Russia didn't veto. I suspect Hillary Clinton is the mover here. Obama, for all his rhetoric is not a foriegn policy expert,its not his forte. Granted he has learned much,but this has the touch of a master. Hillary has been moving around the Middle east for days now and stated to Wolf Blitzer that she was proud to be involved in something that was historic(or something along those lines) If it works however Obama gets credit and points,if it fails he's probably finished, especially if it fails because it took too long, Fascinating stuff

[agunn1231]

I am excited to see how this turns out. Not really sure where to look for credible news about any of it though, other than here.

[mustafabey]

Al Jazeera English has rather good coverage

[TheScotsman]

It's all about oil.
Is anyone here actually naieve enough to believe that GB, and France would give a feck about Libya if it were not for the fact than Libya mainly supplies Europe? Hmmm... remember that deal between the UK, and Libya, you know, the one that released a convicted murderer, and terrorist in return for an oil deal for BP? That deal that left GB covered with crap, and looking like fools after it was done because Libya let the cat out of the bag. -Sure, go ahead and tell me, really, tell me how there is no score to settle there.

The majority of Libyan oil is exported to Italy, France Germany, and GB. The USA is way down the list (US refineries are setup to handle a heavier, less expensive crude than Med-Light-Sweet.) Some time in the last week of Feb (I am too lazy to go look it up) Gadaffi's gov't quit fulfilling their delivery contracts with Europe. They gave a couple of excuses, one of which was that rebel-terrorists threatened oil fields, and delivery. (my words, theirs were long winded, and semi incoherent.) Then in response to the 11 Mar EU council "emergency" meeting that declared Gaddafi's gov't as illegitimate, Libya declared a force majeure in regards to those contracts, and ceased all export to Europe. Gadaffi claimed the EU was working against the intrests of the Libyan Gov't in supporting the insurgents. Mysteriously, after starving for oil Europe drags us into their mess. Really great, isn't it?


UN res 1973 authorizes ground action.... that is a disaster to get into. Really no way to enforce UNR 1973 without ground forces. Ready to go fight in another shite-hole, over oil? For Europe, no less. Only a complete bumbling fool would get us into this mess. Don't blame me--- I didn't vote for him.

It's all about oil-again. This time not even oil for the USA, but for Europe How great is that? Better pay those taxes up, we need some bullets, and body bags.

[mustafabey]

Oh yes,its about oil, especially for Europe as you said. Then too, Israel is not interested in Middle east democracy and America dances to the Israeli piper.Its been almost 24 hours and no air strikes, obviously not an American run op. If it is truly going to be multinational,France,GB, some Arab nations it will probably be somewhat of a cluster fuck.The old fox,Qaddafi has called for a "cease fire" but hasn't ceased firing yet. So everybody is going to be giving him benefit of doubt while he improves his bargaining position. This one is going to very hard to get rid of

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300472533' post='502025']
Oh yes,its about oil, especially for Europe as you said. Then too, Israel is not interested in Middle east democracy and America dances to the Israeli piper.Its been almost 24 hours and no air strikes, obviously not an American run op. If it is truly going to be multinational,France,GB, some Arab nations it will probably be somewhat of a cluster fuck.The old fox,Qaddafi has called for a "cease fire" but hasn't ceased firing yet. So everybody is going to be giving him benefit of doubt while he improves his bargaining position. This one is going to very hard to get rid of
[/quote]

My brain hurts when I try to solve the endgame plans once Israel is added into the mix.

No one gives a crap about democracy. But for the morons at home, banging that drum does seem to stir up the plastic-patriots, doesn't it?

Hell would be a English planned, Italian equipped, French led, and American funded combat operation. Can you immagine the disaster that alone would cause? Add in the Arab propensity to be absolute zealots when they wholly believe in something, and it would become an operation going the wrong way to start with, none of the motorized equipment would function for more than 30 minutes on any given repair, finally retreating about the time the USA decided to strafe the whole damn mess-thinking they are the Libyans. Only way it could be worse would be if the cooks were all Scottish.

[mustafabey]

Hummus and Haggis MRE's fosr everybody! I listened to the presidents speech this afternoon, seems to still be pussy footing around,big meeting tomorrow inParis, Clinton to attend. What about airplanes? Ya know while Qaddafi is still waqsting his people. Once the first jet arrives,he'll back down and try to negotiate his survival. Now if the Libyan people,figuring they are protected now,ramp up the demonstrations, then he might be trouble. It almost like they really don't want to do anything,but don't want to be held responsible for genocide in Libya. Yesterday the Air Force came out with some statements that appeared to convey the message that the job is too hard. Gates has alreaqdy said the military is stressed out with two wars. Vets returning home, i talk to at the VA aren't very gung ho and have deployed many more times than they'd like. Plus many of them are reserves. There were statistics i read once regarding time spent in combat in WW II,Korea and Nam. The Nam vet had the most time in combat. But todays soldier has probably seen much more. Many have done 3 tours between Afghanistan and Iraq. And it isn't just combat. Marines sitting on troopships in the Med can't be having much fun. Judging from all the civilian casualties in Afghanistan, the air boys can't hit shit and wait until some unit from say the Mauretanian Air Force starts bombing.Carnage and dead Libyans everywhere no matter In 1986, the Reagan adminstration took out Qaddafi's command and control and his tent. he keeps that place today as a shrine,thats where I'd drop the first bomb

[TheScotsman]

Well, the french (of all people) have been shooting the crap out of Libyan military assets for a few hours now.

One Frogger downed, and a couple of t-72s popped. Naturally, Gov't tanks have moved into the cities to be harder to hit. Some reports of gov't armor just shooting randomly into civilian targets in retaliation for UN strikes.

big mess at this point



looks like a great time for the spectator-in-chief to go to Brazil, doesn't it? Speaking of which, Did you see the locals fire bombing the US embassy in Brazil? Is that some of that love & respect that PEBO promised we would gain from his great foreign policy? Looking like that was a load of shit toooooooo! The USA is being laughed at by every nation there is, thanks to the lack of any sort of coherent foreign policy.

[mustafabey]

Hmm the French attack some tanks.Has anyone attempted to neutralize Qaddafi's air defense system? Is jamming going on? Have airbases been hit? I thought this fairly basic first strike stuff for establishing a no fly zone. Wouldn't be surprised if they lose a few aircraft. America really wants to back seat so far,saying we will provide "unique capabilities" which must mean survellience, electronic warfare,AWACS etc, not smart bombs,tomahawk cruise missles etc. The French have announced naval patrols, but their are plenty American ships on station. Very unusual. Well darkness falls on Libya, we shall see what night brings.

[mustafabey]

Opewration Odessey Dawn, no wonder it took so long,they had to choose a name. Well it seems the french desired first blood, so some Rambo flew in there to take out a tank. Now itseems we have an American admiral incharge 110 cruise missles launched and air defenses being taken out like a properly run mission. Get Some!