No Fly Zone For Libya

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300563420' post='502085']
Hmm the French attack some tanks.Has anyone attempted to neutralize Qaddafi's air defense system? Is jamming going on? Have airbases been hit? I thought this fairly basic first strike stuff for establishing a no fly zone. Wouldn't be surprised if they lose a few aircraft. America really wants to back seat so far,saying we will provide "unique capabilities" which must mean survellience, electronic warfare,AWACS etc, not smart bombs,tomahawk cruise missles etc. The French have announced naval patrols, but their are plenty American ships on station. Very unusual. Well darkness falls on Libya, we shall see what night brings.
[/quote]

We shot 80 million dollars worth of tomahawks at them. Now, I am all for blowing up the occasional asshole when need arises, but I think we sure could have put those bucks to a much better use than this. We are even buying the ordnance th UK was launching. How generous is that?!?!? No one is targeting him, just defense structures. Gaddafi responds in a positive manner when his tent takes s LGB. It would seem to me, although targeting a specific leader is not typically accepted internationally, why not start with C&C structures, and any known hardened residences? Get him, save assets, and the general population from the destruction from both sides. Randomly demolishing the country in an attempt to kill individual soldiers, and and vehicles causes collateral damage- it didn't work all that well in Serbia, why are we thinking it's going to lead to success here? In the end it just lead to even more civilian deaths on both sides. I would bet the run-of-the-mill Libyan citizen is pretty much living in hell at this point....

Then after we get done blowing the ever-living crap out of the place, we are going to have to rebuild it for them. More nation building for someone that will inevitably end up hating us more than they already do. How great is that! GW Bush foreign policy with a mild dose of windmilling added for good measure.




We are living in truly interesting times.

[mustafabey]

Well that all sounds good,Scotty,but remember that we couldn't take out Saddam and I reckon Mu'ammar is just as paranoid.Oh we'll hit command and control at some point after the air defense umbrella is dismantled. i imagine Libya has some older Soviet SAM sites along the coast that shouldn't be too hard to take out. Some talking head said the Libyan army doesnt fight at night and has little or no night vision capability.As for expense,Scotty, i can't agree with you more,like we can afford this war. Paying the Brits is just insane, but it seems insanity is much in style this season

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300570819' post='502099']
Well that all sounds good,Scotty,but remember that we couldn't take out Saddam and I reckon Mu'ammar is just as paranoid.Oh we'll hit command and control at some point after the air defense umbrella is dismantled. i imagine Libya has some older Soviet SAM sites along the coast that shouldn't be too hard to take out. Some talking head said the Libyan army doesnt fight at night and has little or no night vision capability.As for expense,Scotty, i can't agree with you more,like we can afford this war. Paying the Brits is just insane, but it seems insanity is much in style this season
[/quote]

I was just thinking of a perfect-world scenario more than anything, but also wondering why we are shooting 650,000.00 SCLMs at 1950 era bofers canons with no real value, and that don't really bear any threat whatsoever against high flying fast movers. Seems, well, stupid.

The Arab League is backing out, held emergency meeting in Egypt. Statement that they didn't sanction extensive strikes against ground targets, but only a no-fly zone. (Bunch of military masterminds there! you can't really have one without the other.) Just to add to the bullshit-outcome of this mess our pres has gotten us into, Russia has joined them in statements that the coalition has gone too far.
The coalition has, for all practice purposes, fallen apart. Russia is siding with the Arab League in denouncing the USA. How great is this?



Only one thing I want to know, where are all those liberals that were blabbing about bush's wars for oil when we now have a true, indisputable war for oil, and only for oil, started by their ideal liberal president? hen the mastermind goes to brazil, and gets protested big-but the liberal media isn't showing you that part, are they??? I see some hypocritical people out there! Here we sit, out of 125 missiles launched, 121 of them were from US warships. Who do you think they are blaming for what appears to be high collateral damage, and civilian deaths? Hmmmm... I'm thinking it's the USA, maybe because it was! If we stayed out of it, it would not have happened, it was hillary's backing that inspired france, and the UK. Elections have consequences-the country elected the least qualified person ---- over liking the bumper sticker slogans ---- Now we reap the results.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1300649128' post='502205']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300570819' post='502099']
Well that all sounds good,Scotty,but remember that we couldn't take out Saddam and I reckon Mu'ammar is just as paranoid.Oh we'll hit command and control at some point after the air defense umbrella is dismantled. i imagine Libya has some older Soviet SAM sites along the coast that shouldn't be too hard to take out. Some talking head said the Libyan army doesnt fight at night and has little or no night vision capability.As for expense,Scotty, i can't agree with you more,like we can afford this war. Paying the Brits is just insane, but it seems insanity is much in style this season
[/quote]

I was just thinking of a perfect-world scenario more than anything, but also wondering why we are shooting 650,000.00 SCLMs at 1950 era bofers canons with no real value, and that don't really bear any threat whatsoever against high flying fast movers. Seems, well, stupid.

The Arab League is backing out, held emergency meeting in Egypt. Statement that they didn't sanction extensive strikes against ground targets, but only a no-fly zone. (Bunch of military masterminds there! you can't really have one without the other.) Just to add to the bullshit-outcome of this mess our pres has gotten us into, Russia has joined them in statements that the coalition has gone too far.
The coalition has, for all practice purposes, fallen apart. Russia is siding with the Arab League in denouncing the USA. How great is this?



Only one thing I want to know, where are all those liberals that were blabbing about bush's wars for oil when we now have a true, indisputable war for oil, and only for oil, started by their ideal liberal president? hen the mastermind goes to brazil, and gets protested big-but the liberal media isn't showing you that part, are they??? I see some hypocritical people out there! Here we sit, out of 125 missiles launched, 121 of them were from US warships. Who do you think they are blaming for what appears to be high collateral damage, and civilian deaths? Hmmmm... I'm thinking it's the USA, maybe because it was! If we stayed out of it, it would not have happened, it was hillary's backing that inspired france, and the UK. Elections have consequences-the country elected the least qualified person ---- over liking the bumper sticker slogans ---- Now we reap the results.
[/quote]

Speaking as one of the token liberals here...... A bunch of us are just generally disgusted with the whole thing. We all knew it was going to happen despite everyone pretty much feeling like we need to start taking care of ourselves first and only after we get our own house in order should we even offer to intervene in anything outside our own borders. But hey, fighting a war on three fronts in some of the worst territory in the world? Sure, why not, say the politicians who infest Washington DC like cockroaches. The only thing that surprises me is we're not the ringleaders of this particular foray. We're backing Europe. That's kind of a change, and one I'm happy to see if we're going to be in it. We've ridden to too many rescues for far too long and it never did us a damn bit of good over the long run. But the long-term reality is that probably we're going to get all the blame anyway. Thanks again DC, fuck you very much.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1300650012' post='502206']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1300649128' post='502205']
[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300570819' post='502099']
Well that all sounds good,Scotty,but remember that we couldn't take out Saddam and I reckon Mu'ammar is just as paranoid.Oh we'll hit command and control at some point after the air defense umbrella is dismantled. i imagine Libya has some older Soviet SAM sites along the coast that shouldn't be too hard to take out. Some talking head said the Libyan army doesnt fight at night and has little or no night vision capability.As for expense,Scotty, i can't agree with you more,like we can afford this war. Paying the Brits is just insane, but it seems insanity is much in style this season
[/quote]

I was just thinking of a perfect-world scenario more than anything, but also wondering why we are shooting 650,000.00 SCLMs at 1950 era bofers canons with no real value, and that don't really bear any threat whatsoever against high flying fast movers. Seems, well, stupid.

The Arab League is backing out, held emergency meeting in Egypt. Statement that they didn't sanction extensive strikes against ground targets, but only a no-fly zone. (Bunch of military masterminds there! you can't really have one without the other.) Just to add to the bullshit-outcome of this mess our pres has gotten us into, Russia has joined them in statements that the coalition has gone too far.
The coalition has, for all practice purposes, fallen apart. Russia is siding with the Arab League in denouncing the USA. How great is this?



Only one thing I want to know, where are all those liberals that were blabbing about bush's wars for oil when we now have a true, indisputable war for oil, and only for oil, started by their ideal liberal president? hen the mastermind goes to brazil, and gets protested big-but the liberal media isn't showing you that part, are they??? I see some hypocritical people out there! Here we sit, out of 125 missiles launched, 121 of them were from US warships. Who do you think they are blaming for what appears to be high collateral damage, and civilian deaths? Hmmmm... I'm thinking it's the USA, maybe because it was! If we stayed out of it, it would not have happened, it was hillary's backing that inspired france, and the UK. Elections have consequences-the country elected the least qualified person ---- over liking the bumper sticker slogans ---- Now we reap the results.
[/quote]

Speaking as one of the token liberals here...... A bunch of us are just generally disgusted with the whole thing. We all knew it was going to happen despite everyone pretty much feeling like we need to start taking care of ourselves first and only after we get our own house in order should we even offer to intervene in anything outside our own borders. But hey, fighting a war on three fronts in some of the worst territory in the world? Sure, why not, say the politicians who infest Washington DC like cockroaches. The only thing that surprises me is we're not the ringleaders of this particular foray. We're backing Europe. That's kind of a change, and one I'm happy to see if we're going to be in it. We've ridden to too many rescues for far too long and it never did us a damn bit of good over the long run. But the long-term reality is that probably we're going to get all the blame anyway. Thanks again DC, fuck you very much.

'Rani
[/quote]



RANI!!!!!! I was wondering where you went! Thought you were hiding from that Japanese radiation, and forgot to take a computer when you duct-taped yourself into the closet!

[noodle]

This is bad. The US really doesn't need to get involved in another war, particularly a civil war. One can make a case for Europe to get involved in this because it's practically on their doorstep, but not us. This isn't a case of Reagan smacking Kaddafi for terrorism or Jefferson smacking down the Barbary Pirates. The rest of the world needs to learn to take care of things local to them instead of begging the US to be the world police. These military resources would be better spent on supressing Somali piracy. Edited March 20, 2011 by noodle

[mustafabey]

Well,Scotty I doubt if all Qaddafi has were old Bofors guns,he has some 70's era Soviet Sams,one of which shot down an American jet in 86.But its antiquated. Anyway even if "colition" air craft are F 15's and F18's, our allies don't quite get the same model we're flying.This is not a military operation,its a political operation.Done like all political deals, with stuff under the table no one discusses due to "national security":> So we have to buy the Brits off and pay for their expended cruise missles(which we probably gave them during the Iraq fiasco),the French need to get first blood, send in Jean Rambeaux in his Dassault Rafale because Sarkozy is way down in the polls. All of a sudden France is aggressive. Remember Iraq and freedom fries. Americans hand over command soon and so far we have got American,French,Brit,Spanish,Italian,Danish assets in the air and Canadian,Qatari and UAE stuff on the way. Coordinating this massive air arm with different planes,different weapons systems,different cultures and languages and hope it plugs into our AWACS,radar,satellite intel.It has to be a real ballet to work out well. American military is not very enthusiastic about this.American politics will start to tear it up,second guessing,blaming,accussing, and as Rani said the Russians and Amr Moussa are showing displeasure. No wonder the military boys don't want play,has clusterfuck written all over it in 20 different languages. Hassouni,if you're out there, whats clusterfuck in Arabic?

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300658427' post='502227']
Well,Scotty I doubt if all Qaddafi has were old Bofors guns,he has some 70's era Soviet Sams,one of which shot down an American jet in 86.But its antiquated. Anyway even if "colition" air craft are F 15's and F18's, our allies don't quite get the same model we're flying.This is not a military operation,its a political operation.Done like all political deals, with stuff under the table no one discusses due to "national security":> So we have to buy the Brits off and pay for their expended cruise missles(which we probably gave them during the Iraq fiasco),the French need to get first blood, send in Jean Rambeaux in his Dassault Rafale because Sarkozy is way down in the polls. All of a sudden France is aggressive. Remember Iraq and freedom fries. Americans hand over command soon and so far we have got American,French,Brit,Spanish,Italian,Danish assets in the air and Canadian,Qatari and UAE stuff on the way. Coordinating this massive air arm with different planes,different weapons systems,different cultures and languages and hope it plugs into our AWACS,radar,satellite intel.It has to be a real ballet to work out well. American military is not very enthusiastic about this.American politics will start to tear it up,second guessing,blaming,accussing, and as Rani said the Russians and Amr Moussa are showing displeasure. No wonder the military boys don't want play,has clusterfuck written all over it in 20 different languages. Hassouni,if you're out there, whats clusterfuck in Arabic?
[/quote]

And don't forget we've already got protesting in the streets here in the US against our being involved at all. Once again....... Move to Washington, immediate insert head up ass and forget all intelligence and common sense.

'Rani

[mustafabey]

This thing gets weirder each day. now the far right in the person of Ron Paul and the far left in the person of Dennis Kucinich seem to be of same mind regarding the Libyan military involvement. The coalition seems shaky at least and Nato and the American military seem to want no part of it. OK,Qaddafi's airforce is a thing of the past and what the rebels need is close air support, which is giving the Arab league the jitters. Yemen is unravelling at the seams and Bahrain is getting help from the Saudis. The Egyptian Interior ministry building is in flames. And everywhere from everyside Obama is being criticized. Someone said this costing a quarter billion a day, where is the money going to come from? From social programs most probably, as we are certainly not raising taxes on the poor suffering rich. I have been around for 66 years and this seems to be the worst shape I've seen America in. Kucinich was actually talking impeachment here. Is it unconstitutional to impliment a no fly zone and air strikes without some kind of congressional approval? My g/f gave me a very gaudy Obama Tee shirt from 2008, kind of ghetto in its black and gold color scheme, but when I read the words on the back I almost cried. It was Yes we can! and a list of all the change that was promised and got us liberals excited. But I rub my eyes and it seems i am still in Bushworld

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1300814334' post='502407']
This thing gets weirder each day. now the far right in the person of Ron Paul and the far left in the person of Dennis Kucinich seem to be of same mind regarding the Libyan military involvement. The coalition seems shaky at least and Nato and the American military seem to want no part of it. OK,Qaddafi's airforce is a thing of the past and what the rebels need is close air support, which is giving the Arab league the jitters. Yemen is unravelling at the seams and Bahrain is getting help from the Saudis. The Egyptian Interior ministry building is in flames. And everywhere from everyside Obama is being criticized. Someone said this costing a quarter billion a day, where is the money going to come from? From social programs most probably, as we are certainly not raising taxes on the poor suffering rich. I have been around for 66 years and this seems to be the worst shape I've seen America in. Kucinich was actually talking impeachment here. Is it unconstitutional to impliment a no fly zone and air strikes without some kind of congressional approval? My g/f gave me a very gaudy Obama Tee shirt from 2008, kind of ghetto in its black and gold color scheme, but when I read the words on the back I almost cried. It was Yes we can! and a list of all the change that was promised and got us liberals excited. But I rub my eyes and it seems i am still in Bushworld
[/quote]

We never left Bushworld. And it has nothing to do with the name on the mailbox at 1600. It's the same infestation of vermin that have been running this country into the ground for decades. Color them blue or red, right or left handed, they're all in bed with each other and global business interests which have nothing to do with humanity but the all mighty buck. Despite the fact that you can't take any of it with you. Oh yeah, this world has it's head on straight. Straight up it's ass. Simple example mentioned on the web today after another new broadcast about Cuba. We embargo Cube but we give preferred trade partner status to communist China. Wow, that makes sense, right?

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

I wonder if he still deserves a "peace prize" ???

maybe it's time to call the Swedes, and ask for a RMA and pickup label for that bugger.

[mustafabey]

This all getting very weird,politically. Obama returns from S America to tons of criticism. The talk radio demigods seem to think Qaddafi is not a threat to American interests and that al Qaeda is somehow behind the Libyan opposition.Yet the right is as dithering as Obama on all this. One minute supporting action, the next complaining about it. Rush Limbaugh said yesterday that you have to view Obama's behavior thru the prism of the 2012 election. You're half correct,el Rushbo,you also have to view the opposition thru the very same prism. They are trying to discredit the President in case this gamble pays off. Once again the far right wants the president to fail! No concern for the nation.Now the far left gets into the fray,Kucinich et al, calling for impeachment. No wonder we don't win wars anymore. Yet if this strategy is successful in the next few weeks,Obama stands to profit big time. Beyond a few weeks at most, then we need to quote Donald Rumsfeld from an old press conference during the Iraqi war. "OK,now, everybody, all together now say QUAGMIRE"
As Rani said, we never left Bushworld,so whats the issue here? Can it be as simple as the backwwods Virginia rednecks say? To get the BLACK man out of the WHITE house.
Yet as listen, when i am going into tow3n to Rush and Glenn, I am amazed that the American miidle class buys what these guys say. Basically they are dismantling the whole social system of this country. They attack unemployment,social security,healthcare,public education, unions, collective bargaining and etc. All the social progress this nation made in the 20th century is threatened and they say quite simply'if you can't afford it, tough shit, you're a parasite,deadbeat,whatever. You don't hear them going after welfare cheats,medicare fraud,etc, they want to destroy the middle class. They claim, the leftist, communist,marxists,pinkos are trying to redistribute the wealth. Well destroying the middle class is wealth distribution too, I know how much of my retirement money was redistributed to the fat cats in 2008..... and all de people say "Yes we want to be serfs again"
God is America frigging DUMB

[mustafabey]

SecDef gates says no boots on the ground. Reuters says CIA and SAS types are on the ground assessing the Libyan opposition. Apparently Obama issued a finding allowing the CIA to operate on Libyan soil. My question is simply this, are they barefoot or wearing sandals? Or perhaps the people at Vibram have come up with the answer in these times of podiatry challenged warfare.One hopes they have them in desert camo.

[nun]

This is NOT about removing Ghaddafi, it is about sustaining civil war. -Lowkey-

[Allstar]

Boots on the ground refers to US Military action, what other countries and CIA does will not fall under that statement. We have been under a no boots on the ground in most countries the CIA operates in.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='nun' timestamp='1301970373' post='504234']
This is NOT about removing Ghaddafi, it is about sustaining civil war. -Lowkey-


[/quote]
I must say, I am in complete agreement. I can't seem to piece together exactly what the logic of US involvement is. I am not buying the preventing civilian casualties-that is just a load of BS dumped on us by the white house.

Musty, I think they are wearing ballerina slippers! Anyone that believes there are no US special warfare units doing the forward air control is just plain out of their mind. Saying there are no US "boots on the ground" is just more white house koolaid. Jane's has been reporting US units in libya sometime the last week of feb, and present ever since.

If nothing else, Libya has shown the complete uselessness of both NATO and the UN. Time to bury both of those cold-war dinosaurs has come.


There are some strong indications of a counter revolution in Egypt, with Saudi backing for a gov't model closer to their own. The mid east is a giant disaster, and only getting worse with our inept foreign policy.

[mustafabey]

The Chinese apparently think that the global war on terror gave America the opportunity to station troops around the Middle East. In my day we had lots of troops in Germany,Korea,Okinawa and Japan, now we sizeable amounts of troops in Qatar,Iraq and Afghanistan and no recorded number for covert actors in Pakistan. The article I read( can't remember where) said the Chinese government believes that America is trying to mold the Middle East to its own liking. I have always believed the Oil Wars have already begun, however the Americans are occupying and protecting dwindling oil supplies, while the Chinese have gobbled up the new discovery oil flowing out of central asia. I can't see America really enjoying this Arab Spring Revolution, because it leaves out America's control. We had Mubarak in our pocket, and even though Egypt has little oil, she is a leader in the Arab world. If revolution ever appears in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't the least surprised to see American intervention. Qaddafi is another story,he was always a son of a bitch as far as America was concerned. Yet to all the Arab leaders facing revolutions and demonstations,to Mohammed VI of Morocco,to Qaddafi,Abdullah of Jordan,Bashar Al Assad, Abdullah Ali Salleh,Hamad bin Isa al Khalifa and to King abdullah of Saudi Arabia, I leave the poetry of the great 13th century Yemeni Sufi sage:.

"Shame on you for building lofty palaces'
While your subjects live in dung heaps!"