Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

[Tyler]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1304314895' post='507810']
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304313290' post='507805']
People seem to forget that it was George W. Bush that spearheaded this movement. Was he in office when Osama was taken down? No. But he put in motion the necessary measurements that lead to this moment. Don't be foolish and think for a second that we would have Osama right now if it wasn't for the effort Bush put in -- like him or hate him, he still did amazing things for this country.
[/quote]



How old are you again? I remember what my life and the economy that fueled it were like when GW stepped into office. And what it was like when he slunk out. We were already circling the drain spiritually, no doubt, but we were financially stable and solvent, when he hit the flush button as hard as he could. And even he admits it! If you've ever watched even one of his interviews, you hear him say he made many many mistakes that he believes contributed to the melt-down. He didn't believe it was possible and he never doubted his decisions when he was making them so he never had the chance to turn around. Anybody actually earning a living when he took office can tell you personally how badly he fucked us. But you go ahead and believe that..... I'll be overhere with people earning a decent living back in Clinton's day rolling on the ground laughing at that statement.

'Rani
[/quote]

Someone is a little self-righteous here. First of all my age has nothing to do with understanding simple politics. Second of all you must have forgotten your Elementary Govermental 101 classes if you think for a second that every bad thing that happened was GW's fault. Yes, GW did do stupid things, I know it, he knows it, we all know it...but you do realize that part of the issues came from the Clinton administration leaks at the end of his term while GW took over and tried to change a few things -- well, that created a lot of issues. And what exactly did you want GW to do following 9/11? I personally don't know a single person...again not A SINGLE PERSON who did NOT want to go to war following the attacks, and guess what, believe it or not, wars cost money. And I don't know what high horse you're on right now but to ignore all the good things GW did for us is highly ignorant and shows me how much I should value your opinion on anything political....if I may, allow me to mention a few to jog your memory:

1) Kyoto, need I say more?
2) He created the enchanced interrogation efforts that were used to capture Osama and gain the intel which lead us to him
3) Following vietnam, watergate, the Clinton scandals, ect how much respect did anyone have for a president before GW came into office? He played a major role in regaining that for Obama even if his last few years led to little fruit
4) No Child Left Behind, yes it isn't working in the way it was intended but he made a landmark movement in the right direction
5) World politics, Bush did AMAZING things for foreign affairs and our relations with some of the most powerful countries, something Obama has been using a lot lately -- our relationship with the Middle East and former Soviet countries? Thank GW
6) Relations with Japan, China, and South Korea without pissing off China. Obama could learn a lot from this one
7) Remember Jan. 2007? His surge into Iraq that basically everyone was against...that was, until it worked.
8) Under Bush, humanitarian aid went from 1.4 billion to 4 billion to Africa, literally doubling the trade with Africa
9) Designation 190 million sq acres of ocean as national preserves, including major areas of Hawai'i, which prompted clean up efforts of the giant trash pool floating in the Pacific, something that Obama has increased funding for three-fold already
10) Perscription coverage for seniors and community health centers, thank GW
11) 2001, GW was one of the first people to be outspoken against Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac, but no one wanted to listen
12) homeland security and certain provisions of the Patriot Act, completely revamping communications between intelligence agencies
13) How many attacks have we had on American soil since 9/11 and GW's changes? Can't think of any? Neither can I

Now, if you want to talk about economy let us bring Stimulus I and II into the picture, and how about cash-for-clunkers? Nothing like taking ground out from underneath a struggling economy...someone didn't think that one through all the way and that's some of the first things Obama did that was not directly related to a GW policy...yeah Bush put us in a big hole, and Obama helped to quadruple the size of it.
You could sit here all day and pro/con each president out blaming things on one or the other, but at the end of the day, every president has fucked up, and they will continue to do so, but how about we don't forget about the amazing good things they've done as well? the DADT thing from Obama? Awesome, love it. The changes to military life and policy GW did? Awesome, love it. Good things have happened with every president, but for fuck's sake stop making shit so black and white when it's all just one big gray area.

These are just a few of the things off the top of my head that a quick google search could turn up if you're looking for more. I'm not saying GW was the perfect president, but much in line with Truman, time will tell us more about whether or not GW is actually as bad as you say he was. Again, yes, he caused problems but he also caused a lot of solutions and gave us many means to ends in many situations. To completely demonize his body of work, which by the way cannot be juxtiposed to anyone else's except MAYBE Truman's -- and even that is a stretch, is ignorant. Would you have rathered Gore had been in office on 9/11/2001? If so you're a fool.

And even though it's none of your business, I was earning a living during the Bush administration and still am just fine. Do I have the dream job I've always wanted? No, not yet. But I'm not too proud to take a "lower end" job until that time comes around and that's a lot of the issue. I've known many people who say things like "blah blah blah I have a degree I'm not going to apply at Olive Garden, so what if it pays money, it's not enough" too bad they forget that minimum wage is A LOT better than no income at all.

[Dr. B]

[quote name='IainUM' timestamp='1304485162' post='508189']
i wouldn't imagine bin laden wanted taken in alive anyways, knowing what would have been the inevitable anyways
[/quote]

Due process in a country that honors the death penalty? Terrible. I cringe when I think about it.

[quote name='Tyler'] I personally don't know a single person...again not A SINGLE PERSON who did NOT want to go to war following the attacks...[/quote]

I didn't see the necessity in it. Maybe I'm stagnating by differentiating a formal decree of war and a heavy troop involvement. Call me old fashioned or misinformed, one label is bound to set us straight.

Also, I'm shocked that 'Scotsman and I share some sentiment. No offense, buddy.

[cotsi95]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
And what exactly did you want GW to do following 9/11? I personally don't know a single person...again not A SINGLE PERSON who did NOT want to go to war following the attacks, and guess what, believe it or not, wars cost money.

[color="#ff0000"]I feel that the war in Afghanistan is needed and yes wars do cost money. Where I have a problem is where GW declared war on Iraq because they were "linked" to 9/11 and "had" WMD's. Both of which were A BLATANT LIE! You can try and defend him all you want but a president who not only lies to the American government about why we are going to war but also doesn't even listen to his Military advisors about what is needed to win the "Lie" without creating an insurgency doesn't get any respect from me.

Also when 9/11 happened the world was VERY sympathetic towards the US. That however changed when we invaded Iraq. If you think it doesn't matter how the world see's the US then well YOU are the fool.[/color]

He created the enchanced interrogation efforts that were used to capture Osama and gain the intel which lead us to him

[color="#ff0000"]Is there any proof of this? From what I have gathered the "intel" was pretty much common since. The walls of the compound, the couriers that lived there, and the burning of the trash seem to be pretty obvious that something is going on there. Also Osama had been living there for 6 years, if bush was the one that had a hand in killing osama then why did it take so long?[/color]
[color="#ff0000"][color="#000000"][/quote][/color]
[/color]
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
Following vietnam, watergate, the Clinton scandals, ect how much respect did anyone have for a president before GW came into office? He played a major role in regaining that for Obama even if his last few years led to little fruit
[color="#ff0000"]
I had a lot more respect then a president that started a war that has cost trillions of dollars and 48,000 AMERICAN TROOPS based on a lie that he knew about.[/color]

No Child Left Behind, yes it isn't working in the way it was intended but he made a landmark movement in the right direction

[font="Arial"][size="2"][color="#ff0000"]Nixon also created the EPA, CPSC and OSHA. As well as many other social programs. But you yourself said you don't have much respect for him. I guess what you do doesn't matter as much when your not a Bush.[/color][/size][/font]

Remember Jan. 2007? His surge into Iraq that basically everyone was against...that was, until it worked.


[color="#ff0000"]That wouldn't have been needed in the first place if GW would have listened to his advisors instead of FIRING them when he disagrees.[/color][/quote]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
2001, GW was one of the first people to be outspoken against Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac, but no one wanted to listen


[color="#ff0000"]Ya and the deregulation of the stock market as well as tax cuts CALLED "Bush era tax cuts" have [i]NOTHING [/i]to do with the economic climate we are in today.[/color]

homeland security and certain provisions of the Patriot Act, completely revamping communications between intelligence agencies


[color="#ff0000"]Don't get me wrong it is obvious that SOME changes needed to be made the Patriot Act took away more freedoms to Americans then it should have. The fact that they can wire tap your phone with no warrant, Come into your home with no warrant and arrest you and hold you for an unlimited amount of time if they deem you a "terror suspect" without needing approval by anyone is going a little overboard. What happened to the fourth amendment? It's basically gone now.[/color]

How many attacks have we had on American soil since 9/11 and GW's changes? Can't think of any? Neither can I

[color="#ff0000"]Fort Hood? Arizona Shooting? Oh you mean by Al-Qaeda...no need they can just do it in Iraq they don't need to come all the way to the US. [/color]

Now, if you want to talk about economy let us bring Stimulus I and II into the picture, and how about cash-for-clunkers? Nothing like taking ground out from underneath a struggling economy...someone didn't think that one through all the way and that's some of the first things Obama did that was not directly related to a GW policy...yeah Bush put us in a big hole, and Obama helped to quadruple the size of it.

[color="#ff0000"]You OBVIOUSLY have never taken a Macroeconomics class. If the government steps in when there is a recession it can dramatically decrease the depth of the recession and the time it takes to get out of it. Economist's learned this after the Great Depression. While as a car guy I HATE c4c because you are not allowed to reuse the motor or trans from a c4c car. It DID help the auto industry.[/color]

[color="#ff0000"]Oh and btw at the end of Clinton's term we had a [font="arial, serif"][size="5"]$230 billion SURPLUS[/size][/font][font="arial, serif"][size="2"], ya I know the S-word is forgotten in the American public mind now-a-days but not too long ago it existed. [/size][/font][/color]

You could sit here all day and pro/con each president out blaming things on one or the other, but at the end of the day, every president has fucked up, and they will continue to do so, but how about we don't forget about the amazing good things they've done as well? the DADT thing from Obama? Awesome, love it. The changes to military life and policy GW did? Awesome, love it. Good things have happened with every president, but for fuck's sake stop making shit so black and white when it's all just one big gray area.

These are just a few of the things off the top of my head that a quick google search could turn up if you're looking for more. I'm not saying GW was the perfect president, but much in line with Truman, time will tell us more about whether or not GW is actually as bad as you say he was. Again, yes, he caused problems but he also caused a lot of solutions and gave us many means to ends in many situations. To completely demonize his body of work, which by the way cannot be juxtiposed to anyone else's except MAYBE Truman's -- and even that is a stretch, is ignorant. Would you have rathered Gore had been in office on 9/11/2001? If so you're a fool.

And even though it's none of your business, I was earning a living during the Bush administration and still am just fine. Do I have the dream job I've always wanted? No, not yet. But I'm not too proud to take a "lower end" job until that time comes around and that's a lot of the issue. I've known many people who say things like "blah blah blah I have a degree I'm not going to apply at Olive Garden, so what if it pays money, it's not enough" too bad they forget that minimum wage is A LOT better than no income at all.

[color="#ff0000"]While I agree with you that not everything that Bush did was bad the thing's he fucked up hurt the country a lot more than any good he did. Is Obama perfect? NO, and he wont fix everything single handedly either. But I feel more confidant about the direction the country is in now than I did for years ago and to me that makes all the difference.
[/color][/quote]

[Allstar]

Rules of engagment state if anyone resist the use of Lethal Force is authorized.

Rani, these guys train at a certain standard that requires them to be able to place to head shots in 2 seconds. IF they can't they aren't accepted into that command. Just one of many standards that are required in their 6 month selection and training to make it to that command. Other SEALs are not require to hold the same standards, for me it is very believable.

[Allstar]

Personally I would have let them bury the guy. At least then we know where to set up snipers to take out the rest of the assholes when they show up to pay respects.

[Chreees]

[quote name='Allstar' timestamp='1304509652' post='508230']
Personally I would have let them bury the guy. At least then we know where to set up snipers to take out the rest of the assholes when they show up to pay respects.
[/quote]

Hahaha, I like this... Cause you know they'd try to. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if they tried to dig his body up and take it.

I share the same feelings as Wade and B, pretty much. No sense in repeating what all they said.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1304488286' post='508200']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1304477168' post='508180']
[quote name='K1024' timestamp='1304471160' post='508173']
Part of me cant believe that they actually shot him.... We have so much non lethal weaponry, why didn't they use that? We monitored this house for months and knew there was someone important in there...we should have tear gassed it and used bean bag rounds, then not only would we have the digital information they took from the house, we would have Osama + his best friends to "interrogate"
[/quote]

The fact that he was shooting live ammo at them would have been my deciding thought. Shoot at one of the most highly trained military in existence and expect your life expectancy to drop to ummm, 3 seconds.

'Rani
[/quote]



Some accounts... namely from the White House itself, have him unarmed at the time he got terminal lead poisoning. I really have a hard time sanctioning the outright murder of anyone, be they an extreme asshole, or not. There is a fine line between murder, and warfare sometimes, but any time a military unit is authorized to gun down any unarmed person it's a problem.





Capitol punishment without a trial, lovely. That must be the American justice system the bumster was giving speeches about holding up for the world to admire.







I am willing to bet the original intent was to snatch him out of there, but one of the aircraft took fire, and was not able to get out. At that point, a covert snatch and run was impossible, plan B was to grease to bastard, and get the hell out of dodge. One has to wonder at what point he got a 62 grain lobotomy.

In either case, part of me is damn glad he is crab-food, the other part keeps asking just how this makes the world any safer, I guess only time will tell.


[/quote]

The White House has been all over the map on this issue. Last i heard is that he was unarmed but resisted capture, whatever that means.Scotty,you refer to it as capital punishment with out trial.Again we are in gray territory. Both Bush and Obama portrayed these guys as criminals not enemies, not subject to the rules of war,etc.They were to be tried by military tribunals or civilian courts,which i suppose entitles Osama to a trial. What a circus that would have been,opening the door of all kinds of antics,terrorism and giving the guy a soapbox to the world. Remember the total mess of Saddam's trial and amateur execution. In war you kill the enemy,it doesn't matter if he's shooting at you or not,it depends on the rules of engagement.We don't know what those rules we for this op,but has Allstar has mentioned the SEALS are trained to do the job. Capture or kill is what the White House said.Execution in my book was to quick for this guy, a slow agonizing death would have been more to my liking,but, really no matter,he's gone,he deserved what he got and you can bet no one in America is going to miss him

[mustafabey]

Bin Laden plus one??? What's with all this? The Pakistani's maintain that the people who remained in the compound9women and children) said they took Bin Laden's body plus one other male. So far the US denies it,but it presents an interesting scenario.Who was this guy,what does he know? In the future will be able to find Ayman al Zawahiri( who must be shitting in his shalwar) and role up the rest of al Qaeda based on the intelligence they might have gotten from computers and perhaps from this mystery man.

[Tyler]

[quote name='cotsi95' timestamp='1304505807' post='508222']
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
And what exactly did you want GW to do following 9/11? I personally don't know a single person...again not A SINGLE PERSON who did NOT want to go to war following the attacks, and guess what, believe it or not, wars cost money.

[color="#ff0000"]I feel that the war in Afghanistan is needed and yes wars do cost money. Where I have a problem is where GW declared war on Iraq because they were "linked" to 9/11 and "had" WMD's. Both of which were A BLATANT LIE! You can try and defend him all you want but a president who not only lies to the American government about why we are going to war but also doesn't even listen to his Military advisors about what is needed to win the "Lie" without creating an insurgency doesn't get any respect from me.

Also when 9/11 happened the world was VERY sympathetic towards the US. That however changed when we invaded Iraq. If you think it doesn't matter how the world see's the US then well YOU are the fool.

[/color][color="#2e8b57"]You do realize that the war in Afhanistan and Iraq are and were very linked? Yeah the whole WMD thing was a ploy, but Iran helped fuel fires between these two countries and still are causing issues. And if you think GW is the first person to lie about a war then I laugh.[/color]

He created the enchanced interrogation efforts that were used to capture Osama and gain the intel which lead us to him

[color="#ff0000"]Is there any proof of this? From what I have gathered the "intel" was pretty much common since. The walls of the compound, the couriers that lived there, and the burning of the trash seem to be pretty obvious that something is going on there. Also Osama had been living there for 6 years, if bush was the one that had a hand in killing osama then why did it take so long?

[color="#00ff00"][color="#2e8b57"]Maybe try a quick google search? It's a pretty simple way to find information?[/color] [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_interrogation_techniques"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_interrogation_techniques[/url]
[/color]
[color="#ff0000"][color="#000000"][/quote][/color]
[/color]
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
Following vietnam, watergate, the Clinton scandals, ect how much respect did anyone have for a president before GW came into office? He played a major role in regaining that for Obama even if his last few years led to little fruit
[color="#ff0000"]
I had a lot more respect then a president that started a war that has cost trillions of dollars and 48,000 AMERICAN TROOPS based on a lie that he knew about.
[/color][color="#2e8b57"]This doesn't really make sense but what I think you're saying is that you had more respect for GW before ww went to war? But you might want to recheck your numbers on the cost of war and try to not forget that the WMD lie helped us capture Saddam, instill a fragile but working democracy in Iraq, and gain valueable intel and relations with these countries from within. Yeah, nothing respectable at all I'd say.
[/color]
No Child Left Behind, yes it isn't working in the way it was intended but he made a landmark movement in the right direction

[font="Arial"][size="2"][color="#ff0000"]Nixon also created the EPA, CPSC and OSHA. As well as many other social programs. But you yourself said you don't have much respect for him. I guess what you do doesn't matter as much when your not a Bush.
[/color][color="#2e8b57"]Correct me if I'm wrong but what does the Enviromental Protection Act, Consumer Product Saftey Comission, and Occupational Saftey and Health Administration have to do with education programs? I'm slightly confused. Additionally, where did I say I don't have much respect for Nixon? Just because I don't like the way Watergate was covered doesn't mean I don't have respect for Nixon, I could easily write the same post for Nixon if I cared to[/color][/size][/font]

Remember Jan. 2007? His surge into Iraq that basically everyone was against...that was, until it worked.


[color="#ff0000"]That wouldn't have been needed in the first place if GW would have listened to his advisors instead of FIRING them when he disagrees.[/color][/quote]

[color="#2e8b57"]Except for the part of Iraq's people asking for our help? Pleading their case to the UN? Nope, not needed at all.
[/color]
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
2001, GW was one of the first people to be outspoken against Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac, but no one wanted to listen


[color="#ff0000"]Ya and the deregulation of the stock market as well as tax cuts CALLED "Bush era tax cuts" have [i]NOTHING [/i]to do with the economic climate we are in today.
[/color][color="#2e8b57"]Oh they do, and I agree, but can you tell me 3 of the top catalysts? I bet I can tell you two that are right infront of you right now![/color]

homeland security and certain provisions of the Patriot Act, completely revamping communications between intelligence agencies


[color="#ff0000"]Don't get me wrong it is obvious that SOME changes needed to be made the Patriot Act took away more freedoms to Americans then it should have. The fact that they can wire tap your phone with no warrant, Come into your home with no warrant and arrest you and hold you for an unlimited amount of time if they deem you a "terror suspect" without needing approval by anyone is going a little overboard. What happened to the fourth amendment? It's basically gone now.
[/color][color="#008000"]Notice I said "certain" provisions and not "the Patriot Act" There are a lot of aspects that I don't like about it, but there are a lot which are necessary
[/color]
How many attacks have we had on American soil since 9/11 and GW's changes? Can't think of any? Neither can I

[color="#ff0000"]Fort Hood? Arizona Shooting? Oh you mean by Al-Qaeda...no need they can just do it in Iraq they don't need to come all the way to the US.
[/color][color="#2e8b57"] I suppose you think of Columbine and Virginia Tech as terrorist attacks too?

[/color]Now, if you want to talk about economy let us bring Stimulus I and II into the picture, and how about cash-for-clunkers? Nothing like taking ground out from underneath a struggling economy...someone didn't think that one through all the way and that's some of the first things Obama did that was not directly related to a GW policy...yeah Bush put us in a big hole, and Obama helped to quadruple the size of it.

[color="#ff0000"]You OBVIOUSLY have never taken a Macroeconomics class. If the government steps in when there is a recession it can dramatically decrease the depth of the recession and the time it takes to get out of it. Economist's learned this after the Great Depression. While as a car guy I HATE c4c because you are not allowed to reuse the motor or trans from a c4c car. It DID help the auto industry.[/color]

[color="#ff0000"]Oh and btw at the end of Clinton's term we had a [font="arial, serif"][size="5"]$230 billion SURPLUS[/size][/font][font="arial, serif"][size="2"], ya I know the S-word is forgotten in the American public mind now-a-days but not too long ago it existed.

[color="#008000"]So tell me, when the usual market life of cars were and are supposed to be making their turning point but everyone who would be buying over the last 2 years into the next 4 years already has a new car tell me where the auto-industry is going to make any sales? oh wait, most of those people were already bought out by the government creating a massive drop in clients by the c2c program, and I laugh at any attempt to make either of the Stimulus packages seem like a good idea, seriously, laugh.[/color][/size][/font][/color]

You could sit here all day and pro/con each president out blaming things on one or the other, but at the end of the day, every president has fucked up, and they will continue to do so, but how about we don't forget about the amazing good things they've done as well? the DADT thing from Obama? Awesome, love it. The changes to military life and policy GW did? Awesome, love it. Good things have happened with every president, but for fuck's sake stop making shit so black and white when it's all just one big gray area.

These are just a few of the things off the top of my head that a quick google search could turn up if you're looking for more. I'm not saying GW was the perfect president, but much in line with Truman, time will tell us more about whether or not GW is actually as bad as you say he was. Again, yes, he caused problems but he also caused a lot of solutions and gave us many means to ends in many situations. To completely demonize his body of work, which by the way cannot be juxtiposed to anyone else's except MAYBE Truman's -- and even that is a stretch, is ignorant. Would you have rathered Gore had been in office on 9/11/2001? If so you're a fool.

And even though it's none of your business, I was earning a living during the Bush administration and still am just fine. Do I have the dream job I've always wanted? No, not yet. But I'm not too proud to take a "lower end" job until that time comes around and that's a lot of the issue. I've known many people who say things like "blah blah blah I have a degree I'm not going to apply at Olive Garden, so what if it pays money, it's not enough" too bad they forget that minimum wage is A LOT better than no income at all.

[color="#ff0000"]While I agree with you that not everything that Bush did was bad the thing's he fucked up hurt the country a lot more than any good he did. Is Obama perfect? NO, and he wont fix everything single handedly either. But I feel more confidant about the direction the country is in now than I did for years ago and to me that makes all the difference.

[/color][color="#008000"]Yeah, I feel confidant about doing the exact same things Bush did and making problems worse but not blaming Obama for them. I feel confidant about ruining the liberal studies in public schools. Yup yup, certainly change we can believe in!
[/color][/quote]
[/quote]

[Rani]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304491884' post='508209']
[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1304314895' post='507810']
[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1304313290' post='507805']
People seem to forget that it was George W. Bush that spearheaded this movement. Was he in office when Osama was taken down? No. But he put in motion the necessary measurements that lead to this moment. Don't be foolish and think for a second that we would have Osama right now if it wasn't for the effort Bush put in -- like him or hate him, he still did amazing things for this country.
[/quote]



How old are you again? I remember what my life and the economy that fueled it were like when GW stepped into office. And what it was like when he slunk out. We were already circling the drain spiritually, no doubt, but we were financially stable and solvent, when he hit the flush button as hard as he could. And even he admits it! If you've ever watched even one of his interviews, you hear him say he made many many mistakes that he believes contributed to the melt-down. He didn't believe it was possible and he never doubted his decisions when he was making them so he never had the chance to turn around. Anybody actually earning a living when he took office can tell you personally how badly he fucked us. But you go ahead and believe that..... I'll be overhere with people earning a decent living back in Clinton's day rolling on the ground laughing at that statement.

'Rani
[/quote]

Someone is a little self-righteous here. First of all my age has nothing to do with understanding simple politics. Second of all you must have forgotten your Elementary Govermental 101 classes if you think for a second that every bad thing that happened was GW's fault. Yes, GW did do stupid things, I know it, he knows it, we all know it...but you do realize that part of the issues came from the Clinton administration leaks at the end of his term while GW took over and tried to change a few things -- well, that created a lot of issues. And what exactly did you want GW to do following 9/11? I personally don't know a single person...again not A SINGLE PERSON who did NOT want to go to war following the attacks, and guess what, believe it or not, wars cost money. And I don't know what high horse you're on right now but to ignore all the good things GW did for us is highly ignorant and shows me how much I should value your opinion on anything political....if I may, allow me to mention a few to jog your memory:

1) Kyoto, need I say more? [color="#ff0000"]The Kyoto accords have been in the works for more than 20 years. And we have yet to sign them, so no President at all gets any credit there as far as I'm concerned.
[/color]2) He created the enchanced interrogation efforts that were used to capture Osama and gain the intel which lead us to him. [color="#ff0000"]No, I believe that would be our intelligence community. Are you really saying GW worked in interrogation? I can even hear Scotsman laughing over that idea.
[/color]3) Following vietnam, watergate, the Clinton scandals, ect how much respect did anyone have for a president before GW came into office? He played a major role in regaining that for Obama even if his last few years led to little fruit . [color="#ff0000"] Really? So why did the entire world consider him a laughing stock? To the point of throwing shoes at him? In a video game online? Hell, I played it myself. Got 22 hits at the top of my game as I recall.
[/color]4) No Child Left Behind, yes it isn't working in the way it was intended but he made a landmark movement in the right direction. [color="#ff0000"] Hiliary Clinton designed NCLB. I was listening to the speech when she introduced it, got lambasted for it, and then it was quietly picked up by GW as a feather in his cap.
[/color]5) World politics, Bush did AMAZING things for foreign affairs and our relations with some of the most powerful countries, something Obama has been using a lot lately -- our relationship with the Middle East and former Soviet countries? Thank GW [color="#ff0000"] The entire world hated the man. Still does.
[/color]6) Relations with Japan, China, and South Korea without pissing off China. Obama could learn a lot from this one. [color="#ff0000"]Yep, he actually brought us closer to China. Did wonders for outsourcing jobs to China.
[/color]7) Remember Jan. 2007? His surge into Iraq that basically everyone was against...that was, until it worked. [color="#ff0000"]Nobody is endorsing the Iraq invasion and for your information it had been planned for more than 10 years BEFORE we set the first boot on Iraqi soil. Ask any military personnel here. Everybody knew about it but the general public.
[/color]8) Under Bush, humanitarian aid went from 1.4 billion to 4 billion to Africa, literally doubling the trade with Africa [color="#ff0000"]Don't know, so okay maybe he did one thing right.
[/color]9) Designation 190 million sq acres of ocean as national preserves, including major areas of Hawai'i, which prompted clean up efforts of the giant trash pool floating in the Pacific, something that Obama has increased funding for three-fold already.
10) Perscription coverage for seniors and community health centers, thank GW [color="#ff0000"]I take it you missed the entire mass exodus and organized trips to Canada by seniors to buy perscriptions, right? It was a national disgrace in the news.
[/color]11) 2001, GW was one of the first people to be outspoken against Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac, but no one wanted to listen. Possibly.
12) homeland security and certain provisions of the Patriot Act, completely revamping communications between intelligence agencies [color="#ff0000"]Oh, yeah, that's why every time anyone is arrested for ANYTHING they through in a Terrorist Threat note which potentially removes your right to counsel. The Patriot Act has done more to damage our personal freedoms than any other single piece of legislation ever in our history.
[/color]13) How many attacks have we had on American soil since 9/11 and GW's changes? Can't think of any? Neither can I [color="#ff0000"]How many before???? Hmmm?
[/color]
Now, if you want to talk about economy let us bring Stimulus I and II into the picture, and how about cash-for-clunkers? Nothing like taking ground out from underneath a struggling economy...someone didn't think that one through all the way and that's some of the first things Obama did that was not directly related to a GW policy...yeah Bush put us in a big hole, and Obama helped to quadruple the size of it. [color="#ff0000"]You are aware the stimulus packages were already in Congress being debated when Obama stepped into the White House, right?
[/color]You could sit here all day and pro/con each president out blaming things on one or the other, but at the end of the day, every president has fucked up, and they will continue to do so, but how about we don't forget about the amazing good things they've done as well? the DADT thing from Obama? Awesome, love it. The changes to military life and policy GW did? Awesome, love it. Good things have happened with every president, but for fuck's sake stop making shit so black and white when it's all just one big gray area.

These are just a few of the things off the top of my head that a quick google search could turn up if you're looking for more. I'm not saying GW was the perfect president, but much in line with Truman, time will tell us more about whether or not GW is actually as bad as you say he was. Again, yes, he caused problems but he also caused a lot of solutions and gave us many means to ends in many situations. To completely demonize his body of work, which by the way cannot be juxtiposed to anyone else's except MAYBE Truman's -- and even that is a stretch, is ignorant. Would you have rathered Gore had been in office on 9/11/2001? If so you're a fool.

And even though it's none of your business, I was earning a living during the Bush administration and still am just fine. Do I have the dream job I've always wanted? No, not yet. But I'm not too proud to take a "lower end" job until that time comes around and that's a lot of the issue. I've known many people who say things like "blah blah blah I have a degree I'm not going to apply at Olive Garden, so what if it pays money, it's not enough" too bad they forget that minimum wage is A LOT better than no income at all.
[/quote]

[color="#ff0000"]Your age as a number has nothing to do with it. Your years of experience and what you've lived through as indicated by your age as a number has EVERYTHING to do with it. I seem to recall those of us above your general age, have the same recollections I do. That's not an age number. That's the experience of having lived through it and remembering it now. My memory is just fine. I lived through it. Don't have to go searching through the internet for "data" to reference events I have no experience of. And no self-righteousness about it.

'Rani
[/color]

[Rani]

[quote name='Allstar' timestamp='1304509454' post='508228']
Rules of engagment state if anyone resist the use of Lethal Force is authorized.

Rani, these guys train at a certain standard that requires them to be able to place to head shots in 2 seconds. IF they can't they aren't accepted into that command. Just one of many standards that are required in their 6 month selection and training to make it to that command. Other SEALs are not require to hold the same standards, for me it is very believable.
[/quote]

Oh, it's believable... I know several former SEALS and a couple, mmm, specialists I guess you could say. I'm just complimenting the guy. Whoever he may be.

'Rani

[Click]

The rules of engagement pretty much guaranteed that Osama bin Laden was going to be shot. The only situation where the DEVGRU team was to take him alive is if he posed absolutely no threat. No weapons, no IED's under his garments, etc. So the only scenario where he would have been taken alive is if he was butt naked in an empty room.

[Allstar]

[quote name='Click' timestamp='1304550554' post='508316']
The rules engagement pretty much guaranteed that Osama bin Laden was going to be shot. The only situation where the DEVGRU team was to take him alive is if he posed absolutely no threat. No weapons, no IED's under his garments, etc. So pretty much the only scenario where he would have been taken alive is if he was butt naked in an empty room.


[/quote]

DEVGRU hahahahaha. I love it. Though my best thought is hang him up from a crane over the twin towers site until he decomposes.

[Chreees]

I always kinda wanted us to catch him alive and hang him from a post in NYC and allow people to throw shit at him until he died.

[TheScotsman]

Invade a foreign nation, kill multiple foreign civilians, gun down an unarmed man in front of his daughter after shooting his wife, and then loose a previously unpublicized stealth helo into enemy hands. Pass out some fake pix to US congressmen in mean time.

Yep, that's a clusterfuck of a proportion near jimmy carter's desert rescue

[noodle]

[quote name='Allstar' timestamp='1304550818' post='508317']
[quote name='Click' timestamp='1304550554' post='508316']
The rules engagement pretty much guaranteed that Osama bin Laden was going to be shot. The only situation where the DEVGRU team was to take him alive is if he posed absolutely no threat. No weapons, no IED's under his garments, etc. So pretty much the only scenario where he would have been taken alive is if he was butt naked in an empty room.


[/quote]

DEVGRU hahahahaha. I love it. Though my best thought is hang him up from a crane over the twin towers site until he decomposes.
[/quote]

Good idea, but put the body in a gibbet.

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1304562924' post='508344']
Invade a foreign nation, kill multiple foreign civilians, gun down an unarmed man in front of his daughter after shooting his wife, and then loose a previously unpublicized stealth helo into enemy hands. Pass out some fake pix to US congressmen in mean time.

Yep, that's a clusterfuck of a proportion near jimmy carter's desert rescue
[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, yeah..... You know what? I wouldn't believe the "reports" you're hearing. The media and entertainment industry be damned but the changing "circumstances" started being heard before the team got halfway home, let alone was debreifed! The only people that will ever know the exact circumstances of the death of Bin Laden are the team themselves and they aren't going to talk to anybody otherwise they wouldn't be the kind of team they are! All the detractors and the "information" is coming from all over the map and doesn't remotely fit any kind of logic.

First of all, if you're a man that knows that all the western world wants dead as do a great many moderate Muslims, you're not sitting around having tea with your wife and kiddies while commandos raid your house where you've been hiding out without having a couple guns handy. What do you think, they burst in and interrupted story telling time? This was a mass murderer for heaven's sake. They have a tendency to protect themselves. As far as his wife is concerned, come on, if she's in the line of fire, she's going to get shot. Or perhaps you think that she was the "good fairy" and wouldn't hurt a soul despite being wife to a known and hunted mass murderer?

Come on,..... The whole "we walked and murdered poor innocent them" just doesn't fly. No by logic, not by common sense, not by any stretch of the imagination. This was a major long promised achievement. Those who side with the White House will claim all kinds of things to pump it up, and the opposition will claim all kinds of things to diminish it. The stories all defy logic and you shouldn't be buying into them, despite how you feel about Obama.

'Rani

[Chreees]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1304562924' post='508344']
Invade a foreign nation, kill multiple foreign civilians, gun down an unarmed man in front of his daughter after shooting his wife, and then loose a previously unpublicized stealth helo into enemy hands. Pass out some fake pix to US congressmen in mean time.

Yep, that's a clusterfuck of a proportion near jimmy carter's desert rescue
[/quote]

I can't believe I just read this.

Admit it- you're afraid to admit Obama did the right thing by giving the order to go in. You probably just wish it had been a Republican. Or you in some way can say that it was Bush who really caught him, and "Obummer" is just taking all the credit. Am I right?

I guess you heard all that in your post on Fox News, huh?

Clinton AND Bush were both given opportunities to catch the fucker. They passed. Obama had the balls to do it. I think had Bush caught him, everyone would be like, "Yes! Bush killed bin Laden!" But no, since it was Obama, it's "Obama didn't do shit, the troops did it all and he needs to give credit to them and to Bush for all his efforts to catch him" (which Obama did in his speech if you read the transcript). I've seen some of the most ignorant comments come from this whole situation. It really just shows how skewed the perceptions of Americans really are.

Another thing I thought was funny was how bin Laden's beliefs were that Western society is so spoiled and whatnot. YET HE WAS LIVING IN A MANSION WHEN THEY FOUND HIM. All that time we were looking in caves for him. I bet he was sitting in that mansion all these years... And something happened and the Pakistani government decided he was no longer worth protecting from us, so they basically handed him over. My guess is perhaps "Obummer" increased diplomatic relations enough to make that happen? HM. Just food for thought...

[ezxen]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' timestamp='1304614568' post='508414']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1304562924' post='508344']
Invade a foreign nation, kill multiple foreign civilians, gun down an unarmed man in front of his daughter after shooting his wife, and then loose a previously unpublicized stealth helo into enemy hands. Pass out some fake pix to US congressmen in mean time.

Yep, that's a clusterfuck of a proportion near jimmy carter's desert rescue
[/quote]

I can't believe I just read this.

Admit it- you're afraid to admit Obama did the right thing by giving the order to go in. You probably just wish it had been a Republican. Or you in some way can say that it was Bush who really caught him, and "Obummer" is just taking all the credit. Am I right?

I guess you heard all that in your post on Fox News, huh?

Clinton AND Bush were both given opportunities to catch the fucker. They passed. Obama had the balls to do it. I think had Bush caught him, everyone would be like, "Yes! Bush killed bin Laden!" But no, since it was Obama, it's "Obama didn't do shit, the troops did it all and he needs to give credit to them and to Bush for all his efforts to catch him" (which Obama did in his speech if you read the transcript). I've seen some of the most ignorant comments come from this whole situation. It really just shows how skewed the perceptions of Americans really are.

Another thing I thought was funny was how bin Laden's beliefs were that Western society is so spoiled and whatnot. YET HE WAS LIVING IN A MANSION WHEN THEY FOUND HIM. All that time we were looking in caves for him. I bet he was sitting in that mansion all these years... And something happened and the Pakistani government decided he was no longer worth protecting from us, so they basically handed him over. My guess is perhaps "Obummer" increased diplomatic relations enough to make that happen? HM. Just food for thought...
[/quote]
Im not saying Obama dident do shit because ultimately he had to give the go ahead on the mission and it was probably something that weighed on his head heavily because has the mission failed we would have a team of seals captured on Pakistani soil and he would have to live the consequences of that, but It was really the efforts of the CIA and the seal team who deserve the credit. As history tells us only the leader will get the glory and im just fine with that.
The best thing for a country is moral and right now people are too pig headed to just say "We finally got the bastard" lets hug . there all to busy fighting over how bad bush fucked up and climbing up Obama's ass. Republican Democrat who gives a fuck we should all be rejoicing for the death of Bin laden. We got our revenge.

[mustafabey]

Right on Chris! Rather than flame here on the forum I've put my comments in [url="http://www.hookahforum.com/blog/126/entry-176-on-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden/"]My Blog[/url]

[Chreees]

They all deserve fucking credit! Just in different ways... God I'm so tired of this bullshit.

[Allstar]

For one thing, Obama didn't catch him. Bush and Clinton wouldn't have either. The people on the ground caught him. U.S. NAVY SEALs. Yes he had to give the order, and btw we weren't looking in caves for him. Another thing, they wouldn't have been captured, they would have died there fighting next to their brothers and taken as many of those assholes with them. Also he didn't have an issue with western ideas as much as he did that his people turned their back on their traditions to adapt the western ideas.

What lead him to his way of thinking was this. After he lead his taliban fighters against the Russians in Afghanistan (as a backer with money), he returned to Sudia Arabia. They were being threatened by Iran. Iran wanted to invade. He stated to his royal family that he would fly his fighters out to guard the border and repel any attacks. He was turned down, because they said the Americans would do it. Then when he protested against the royal family, they threw him out. That is where things changed.

[Chreees]

I just don't understand why people are bringing all that up- "Obama didn't catch him." Of course he didn't- the soldiers did. He just gave the order. I don't see why people are arguing such a moot point. Not once in Obama's address did I hear him "take credit for bringing down bin Laden." Please, quote the transcript and tell me where he does.

I mention Clinton and Bush because they were both presented opportunities to nab him yet didn't. Of course [b]had one of them made he decision to go in and capture/kill him[/b], it would have been soldiers getting him then as well.

[Rani]

Yeah, what they said.

'Rani

[Rani]

And now all railways are on alert because documentation was found in the raid to celebrate the anniversary of 9/11 by de-railing trains all over the country. Oh those poor, misunderstood, non-violent, innocent, people sitting around reading fairy tales, reciting poetry, drinking tea mass murdering terrorists. That we just up and killed for no reason. Screw this "we murdered those poor people" crap. If I had my way, we'd recover all the bodies, line them up and shoot them again.

'Rani