Duty To What?

[TheScotsman]

So, the administration decided we had-how did he put it- "a duty to protect" in Libya; Libya where the best reports are saying gadaffi killed in the order of 52 civilians prior to the president leading NATO and the USA into what is a civil war, and another mid east mess. A mess where our collateral damage ay be higher than the damage inflicted by the Libyan gov't. Yet we see Syria, where the populace is fleeing the nation, many, many videos of everything from atry attacks on civilians, to beating tied women with chains, and stomping restrained people into convultions. In Iran we see the gov't snipers gunning down civilians. teenage girls are raped the night before so they can be executed under Islamic law (can't execute virgins.) and there are people hanging from cranes for every sort of infraction they can dream up... We have the Mexican civilians dying at the rate of 85+ a day as a result of criminal activity (Some with weapons the ATF let them have at the direction of PEBO's $100,000,000.00 attempted sting operation.)Hell, they are crossing our border, and engaging US LEOs. Why do we have a "duty to protect" a population engaged in a civil war with minimal losses on one had, yet ignore real gov't mass murder, and rogue criminal gang committing mass murders, and armed invasions of sovereign US land

Yet no action from gloroius leader- What the feck is that all about? Where are the protesters in the streets over illegal military action overseas? Talk about your inconsistency.

[Chreees]

Um, we need to pull out from that entire region and just let them all fight and kill each other (as they've been doing for hundreds of years anyway), because we really had no right to go in there in the first place. I bet you the history books will show that going into the Middle East was the United States' number one mistake.

[Epoch]

America simply can't afford to be the world's police. Yes, it is outrageous that there are so many social injustices around the world, but it's up to the perpetrators and the victims to solve on their own.

[Rani]

[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1308022725' post='512590']
America simply can't afford to be the world's police. Yes, it is outrageous that there are so many social injustices around the world, but it's up to the perpetrators and the victims to solve on their own.
[/quote]

A very important addition to that is the fact that unless you earn it for yourself, you never appreciate it. Running to the rescue of anybody, whether it's an individual or a nation, instead of allowing them to resolve it themselves has never once worked beyond a moment. Then it gets all convoluted. They resent it, you feel them ungrateful and like they owe you...... Just bad news all around. They need to do this for themselves otherwise they will never be able to stand up for themselves and take an equal part in their own government. Is it easy to watch? Nope, no easier than throwing a grown lazy-ass kid out to fend for themselves, but it's the only way they're ever going to grow up.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

following Rani's thought; Another problem is the USA's intent of inflicting democracy on the mid-east-in

Frankly, there are few worse forms of gov't than democracy. It's nothing more than mob rule backed by the force of arms. In religious radicalized nations it's always going to be a disaster that ends with a religion-based society with the power to twist that religion to match their own desires for control of the population, and mass murder of that population. Hell, just look at the results we have with a republic moderating the effects of the mob-rule principal in this country, can you imagine if a true democracy was handed to the religious nut-jobs?


I still wonder where all those protesters that were all over the place went. You know the ones-the code pink, and like crowds that flapped their face about legal foreign wars under bush; Now we actually do have a president operating an illegal foreign war-against the war powers act-and they are silent.


All wars the USA has not won were entered by progressive-democrat presidents.

[Rani]

Sctosman, one of the most influential and yet potentially damaging things in the world are words. The problem is that people get all hung up on their own personal theories (or those they've adopted from others) and using the power of words turn it into something it's not. A great wordsmith could easily convince you black is white,. There have been many, many people through history who did just that. Hitler being the most obvious example. I don't think anything is inherently bad, not even any particular social system. Democracy isn't necessarily a bad thing - after all it's based on self-determination and the ability to make majority rules. Socialism gets a really bad rap, but I could see if humanity would actually quit trying to one-up each other, it could be a very beneficial system. If all our basic wants and needs are taken care of imagine what our minds could do. We could change not the just the world but the universe itself. And the bottom lime is quality of life. If your quality of life is great, then who cares what the system is called? Utopia? Yeah, but only impossible because it hasn't been achieved.

It's all about how it's not just perceived, but worshiped. And don't tell me our politicians of every party aren't worshiping at the altars of their own power and influence. You're blaming Obama for the war, but he didn't start either of them. It was planned 10 years before Bush even took office and he was the one who went ahead and got us into this mess. We can't properly fund Social Security but we can keep spending $10 billion a month on wars we shouldn't be in at all?

I'm a strange case I suppose. I believe in self-determination. I think we all have the right to make our decisions about our lives ourselves. I also think all drugs should be legalized, addicts labeled as such and supplied their drugs through government dispensation so the gangs and border criminals lose their power and currency. I think we should be taking care of our own people first. We should have import taxes so high that it's not financially feasible to have goods manufactured outside our own country.

I don't think Obama is a bad guy. I think he's got the right idea. The problem is with our economic and political climate we needed a George MacArthur, not a Dalai Lama in the White House. Speaking softly is a good thing so long as you're carrying a very big stick. I think Obama left his in Chicago.

'Rani

[Druthers]

You may be interpreting the ostensible exterior of "Responsibility to Protect" (R2P), rather than what most experts and stakeholders consider to be the reality.

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1307981637' post='512510']the admin[font="Arial"]istr[/font]ation decided we had-how did he put it- "a duty to protect" in Libya; [Moral reprehension of behaviour by autocratic governments which most Westerners might fairly call 'unsavoury']: [font="Palatino Linotype"][i][size="1"]Libya where the best reports are saying gadaffi killed in the order of 52 civilians prior to the president leading NATO and the USA into what is a civil war, and another mid east mess. A mess where our collateral damage ay be higher than the damage inflicted by the Libyan gov't. Yet we see Syria, where the populace is fleeing the nation, many, many videos of everything from atry attacks on civilians, to beating tied women with chains, and stomping restrained people into convultions. In Iran we see the gov't snipers gunning down civilians. teenage girls are raped the night before so they can be executed under Islamic law (can't execute virgins.) and there are people hanging from cranes for every sort of infraction they can dream up... We have the Mexican civilians dying at the rate of 85+ a day as a result of criminal activity (Some with weapons the ATF let them have at the direction of PEBO's $100,000,000.00 attempted sting operation.)Hell, they are crossing our border, and engaging US LEOs. Why do we have a "duty to protect" a population engaged in a civil war with minimal losses on one had, yet ignore real gov't mass murder, and rogue criminal gang committing mass murders, and armed invasions of sovereign US land[/quote][/size][/i][/font]
The prevailing notion amongst people who are "protected", as well as experts on both sides of the equation, is that R2P isn't about moralizing, democratizing or Westernizing foreign nations; it's about maintaining a framework of justification for intervention if and when it suits a powerful state.

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1307981637' post='512510']Yet no action from gloroius leader- What the feck is that all about? Where are the protesters in the streets over illegal military action overseas? Talk about your inconsistency.[/quote]
He did exactly what Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Winston Churchill, Napoleon Bonaparte and Joseph Stalin all would have done: prioritized the national interest. Barack Obama is the leader of a sovereign state, which means it's his primary responsibility to actively pursue its advantages and benefit above all else, including personal opinion or the perceived immorality of foreign governments.

By heralding the "need" for a duty or responsibility to protect, B.O. laid out the framework of justification for any future intervention/invasion of Libya, depending upon whether or not it was in the best geopolitical and/or economic interests of the U.S. to do so. The fact that he has not yet 'taken action' is simply indicative that, from his understanding as almost certainly the most informed individual in the U.S., it is not in the national interest to take action. This isn't inconsistency, it's classic realpolitik.

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1308152247' post='512728']Hell, just look at the results we have with a republic moderating the effects of the mob-rule principal in this country, can you imagine if a true democracy was handed to the religious nut-jobs? [/quote]
I can't tell for certain if this is intentionally ironic. Edited June 15, 2011 by Druthers

[mustafabey]

No matter what we do in Libya,Afghanistan,Iraq or elsewhere, a government will develop that is not "American Democracy":, what ever that is. Islam is a thought system that includes in it hints of government. Muhammad was not only a prophet but a political leader. His revelation includes ideas on government,although he never set down a government outline. Fundamentalists insist that the Quran should be the constitution of an Islamic state. Besides the few years that the Prophet ruled the ummah, there has never been an Islamic governmental system that, like all other governments was fraught with greed,power struggles,oppression,what have you.However most Muslims have suffered under colonialism,Islamic socialism,royalty,theocracy, to name a few. Even in independence they feel manipulated by neo liberal economics and a world view that barely includes them. So what ever develops in these nations will have an Islamic stamp of some kind. Thats inevitable,as Islamic revival is one the most powerful forces in the world today. What the people don't want is Western intervention and that, by golly, is what they getting. Our concern is not for the Libyan,Syrian.Egyptian people or any other people of the region. Its a battle to maintain a status quo, so oil flows free and cheap.So Israel faces no dynamic Islamic state on its borders. So "terrorism" doesn't find fertile field.yet it is our neo colonial meddling that causes the resistance we call terrorism. We are finding out slowly and at high cost that we have little control of what emerges in the region. Iraq is going its way and so will Afghanistan, and no American style government will grow there.Oh,Yes we need to get out, but will our world be the same when the Middle East works out its problems.Can we live with a revived Caliphate? Can we endure higher oil prices? As we sell modernism and globalization to the world, we must be aware that what emerges globally is not going to be an American creature.Already moves are afoot to trash the dollar as a world currency,and less and less is our influence being felt. America is a world power in decline and history moves too fast these days for a Diocletian to emerge to rearrange the system and give us power for another few decades. We are spending too much money being policemen of the world.We can't pay our bills and are living on credit and printing monopoly money. We create very little the world wants these days besides armament systems. Some yearn for the Fifties , when Blacks still sat in the back of the bus,Mexicans lived in Mexico,Arabs were still exotic and Chinese meant Chow Mein. Globalization, the communications and information revolutions,multinational corporations and the rest of trapping of 21st century guarantee us a rapid world change. To use the hackneyed phrase new world order doesn't quite work, because, I think, for a long time there will be very little order. Predatory capitalism will rule for a spell,but the people will rise and create some else to exploit them in a new a different manner. Environmental disasters will reshape the world as much as revolutions will. Conservatives, be they Republicans or Jihadists just have their heads in the sand like the ostrich of proverb, Liberals,socialist and communists and other utopian types are mired in systems that just don't operate any more. Everybody battles for the past, the fifties,the times of the Prophet, the good old days, when ever they were. The good old days is like the Marine Corps Old Corps. I once asked a mean and tough old Gunnery Sergeant, when did the Old Corps end? The Gunny just said, "the day you enlisted" So the good old days might be when I had my head under desk in third grade to escape nuclear holocaust, or the depression, or the free and easy sixties, with people dying everywhere. No one looks to the future today, because no one can predict what it will become. The Peace of Westphalia is often mentioned as the beginnings of our modern world. What emerges in next few decades will influence mankind for centuries.We are living in powerful times.
As for America, I sometimes envision a ticket of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich and that certainly not a impossible thing.

[antouwan]

the middle east for the US is analogous to the eastern front for nazi germany. it's just like a black hole you get sucked into that you can't recover from.

[Blaskomc]

makes me sit and wonder to myself, what the hell am i over here fighting for? ill tell you.... so all you people can debate on why im over here fighting LAWLZ!!!!

[thatonethere]

[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1308022725' post='512590']
America simply can't afford to be the world's police. Yes, it is outrageous that there are so many social injustices around the world, but it's up to the perpetrators and the victims to solve on their own.
[/quote]

This. America needs to clean up its own backyard before it goes around the world to chide others for theirs. My heart goes out to ALL American soldiers, past, present and future. I don't think our government will ever learn it's lesson until our country looses so bad it's catastrophic,and/or the future war hits home. Not like 9/11, but something much, much more severe.

[Rani]

[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1308574229' post='513192']
[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1308022725' post='512590']
America simply can't afford to be the world's police. Yes, it is outrageous that there are so many social injustices around the world, but it's up to the perpetrators and the victims to solve on their own.
[/quote]

This. America needs to clean up its own backyard before it goes around the world to chide others for theirs. My heart goes out to ALL American soldiers, past, present and future. I don't think our government will ever learn it's lesson until our country looses so bad it's catastrophic,and/or the future war hits home. Not like 9/11, but something much, much more severe.
[/quote]

I hate to say it but I think you're absolutely right. Washington simply doesn't get it. They have no concept of how their abuse has cause problems not only in this country and it's citizens but all over the world. It's going to take a complete disaster of near mythological proportions before they finally wake up.

'Rani