Opening A Hookah Bar In Toronto

[Sheesha Man]

Hi, I'm so happy to have found this forum. I had no idea there was a community out there that shared my favorite past time.

So I have been struggling with something and I figured this would be the best forum to raise it for discussion.

Question: What are the laws against opening and operating a Hookah Bar in Toronto? I'm looking for the legal answer and the real world answer. I'm getting mixed answers from other owners. It doesnt make sense to me how it can be Illegal yet so many are popping up all over the city.

I plan to open a one of a kind Hookah Bar that provides a real authentic sheesha experience coupled with the atmosphere that you dont get at Lawrence or the few 'Herbal' sheesha lounges in Downtown TO. I will take my sheesha experience from Dubai, Syria, Egypt, Morrocco, France, England and TO to design and create the kind of sheesha lounge you don find around here.

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Also, any ideas with vision and design would be appreciated like wise.

[IainUM]

i dont know the specifics but im pretty sure it isn't illegal to open a hookah bar, but there are a lot of restrictions. also, tobacco in canada, from what i hear, is MAD expensive due to taxation on tobacco products being imported.

[Sheesha Man]

[quote name='IainUM' timestamp='1309361869' post='514120']
i dont know the specifics but im pretty sure it isn't illegal to open a hookah bar, but there are a lot of restrictions. also, tobacco in canada, from what i hear, is MAD expensive due to taxation on tobacco products being imported.
[/quote]

Yup, its true...MAD is an understatement. But my follow up question to that is...How are all these Hookah bars doing business with expensive tobacc? i think we all know the answer to that

One owner told me he get fined everyday and he lives in fear of being shut down at any moment. Which doesnt make sense to me why he is still in business if the risk is soo high!

[angekfire]

[quote name='Sheesha Man' timestamp='1309363053' post='514123']
One owner told me he get fined everyday and he lives in fear of being shut down at any moment. Which doesnt make sense to me why he is still in business if the risk is soo high!
[/quote]

Keep a few things in mind. First off, if he is able to pay the fines daily and still turn a profit, then that is how he is still in business even with the high risk. The other thing to keep in mind, if you are telling them you are opening a shisha bar, they may try to discourage you, since you would be new competition.

In Ontario, smoking indoors is illegal. Herbal shisha may be a loop hole, but I have no idea. A patio or outdoor venue may also be a way to do it, have it as a seasonal thing, but I am pretty sure you cannot have the area covered either.

And yes, the cost is very high here, so you will probably have to charge more to be able to turn a profit.

[Hassouni]

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1309367969' post='514125']
[quote name='Sheesha Man' timestamp='1309363053' post='514123']
One owner told me he get fined everyday and he lives in fear of being shut down at any moment. Which doesnt make sense to me why he is still in business if the risk is soo high!
[/quote]

Keep a few things in mind. First off, if he is able to pay the fines daily and still turn a profit, then that is how he is still in business even with the high risk. The other thing to keep in mind, if you are telling them you are opening a shisha bar, they may try to discourage you, since you would be new competition.

In Ontario, smoking indoors is illegal. Herbal shisha may be a loop hole, but I have no idea. A patio or outdoor venue may also be a way to do it, have it as a seasonal thing, but I am pretty sure you cannot have the area covered either.

And yes, the cost is very high here, so you will probably have to charge more to be able to turn a profit.
[/quote]

The bit about turning a profit despite fines is very good, that kind of thing has been going on for various businesses for decades.

It might be possible to have a mostly outdoor space that's enclosed so it's not "legally" indoors - a lot of the places in London do this, since all smoking indoors is illegal

[MichaelLCP]

Yeah. I've seen quite a few lounges like that.

[angekfire]

[quote name='Hassouni' timestamp='1309368481' post='514127']
The bit about turning a profit despite fines is very good, that kind of thing has been going on for various businesses for decades.

It might be possible to have a mostly outdoor space that's enclosed so it's not "legally" indoors - a lot of the places in London do this, since all smoking indoors is illegal
[/quote]


A prime example of turning a profit despite fines here is boxing dale sales. Legally certain stores are only allowed to open at a certain time (Unless they meet certain criteria, which these do not), so electronics retailers like best buy open earlier than allowed, accept the fine,a dn still turn more of a profit from sales in that hour alone than the fine imposes. Worth it.

[Sheesha Man]

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1309376433' post='514149']
[quote name='Hassouni' timestamp='1309368481' post='514127']
The bit about turning a profit despite fines is very good, that kind of thing has been going on for various businesses for decades.

It might be possible to have a mostly outdoor space that's enclosed so it's not "legally" indoors - a lot of the places in London do this, since all smoking indoors is illegal
[/quote]


A prime example of turning a profit despite fines here is boxing dale sales. Legally certain stores are only allowed to open at a certain time (Unless they meet certain criteria, which these do not), so electronics retailers like best buy open earlier than allowed, accept the fine,a dn still turn more of a profit from sales in that hour alone than the fine imposes. Worth it.
[/quote]


Thanks for the tips guys, I will take it into consideration. After speaking with a few Hookah Bar owners downtown, they say that there is a loophole in the Smoking Laws in Canada. Apparently, you can smoke inside as long as its Herbal (ie no tobacco or nicotine). Plus, they all admit that the fines are worth it (by the way the fine is for smoking Al fakkhr indoors not for smoking shiisha)

And i like the idea of a mostly outdoor space enclosed. But we have a really bad winter out here. Do you have any pics you can send me or websites of such places?

[angekfire]

[quote name='Sheesha Man' timestamp='1309445433' post='514261']
And i like the idea of a mostly outdoor space enclosed. But we have a really bad winter out here. Do you have any pics you can send me or websites of such places?
[/quote]

If it is going to be tobacco smoked outside, it can't be covered or enclosed, to my knowledge. There are 2 bars in Ottawa, and they just put up a ton of patio umbrellas if the weather is rainy. And they aren't open all year, winters are worse here in Ottawa than Toronto.

But again, when dealing with bar owners, take what they say with a grain of salt unless you are their close, personal friend. They aren't going to want to give you all the details to run a hookah bar, and may try to dissuade you, as it would be helping competition and cutting into their profits.