Heating idea: charcoal pot

[cymptom]

I got a little bored today and decided to draw up a diagram for a design that's been in the back of my mind for a few weeks -- a charcoal pot heater that would reduce or remove the health risks brought by the burning charcoal. After I drew it up and thought about it some more, I decided it probably wouldn't work very well, if at all.... but I figured I'll post anyway just for the possibility that some variation of the design might actually be useful. It's probably been thought of before... but anyway, let me know what you guys think.[img]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/cymptom/coalchamber.jpg[/img]The charcoals would heat the inner chamber, and air would be drawn in and heated as it passed through the space between the outer and inner chambers. As for the material, I don't know what would work best but I'm assuming it'd be pyrex, clay or stainless steel. It seemed like a good idea before I drew it up, but now I'm thinking that the air being drawn in just wouldn't get hot enough, and the cool air constantly being drawn in through that space would probably cool the surfaces rather quickly. The more I think about it, you probably do need to be able to pull into the bowl all that hot (but toxic...) air that's rising off of the charcoals. To attempt to compensate for this, you could totally load up that inner chamber with tons of coal, and it'd be nice because it wouldn't really matter what kind, and maybe it would also help to have some kind of a heat cover that covers the whole contraption, with a hole in the top for the inner chamber smokestack to fit through. But... I'm thinking it just would be rather difficult to get the same kind of heat you get from drawing the air directly past the coals. Maybe I've just been thinking about it a little too long -- anyone have any suggestions as to how an idea like this might work? I'd love to try testing it out myself, but I have absolutely no means of making something like that.

[DizzyGuy]

Hmm... I dunno... I guess if it was like one of the snap on covers where you can kinda create a sealed area to make a vaccum type suction to bring the air back... but then again, will this make it too hot and start burning the shisha? But I'm not sure it this will make the health risks less... you'll still be breathing in what you would if it was a free standing coal... in fact, you might breath more just because maybe not all of the smoke leaves the chamber or there is a build up making things worse

[Glottis]

I like the idea. I think you should try to make something like it. However, the air being pulled in would probably still have the fumes from the coals. I bet it would get hot enough, as long as the apparatus was made out of something that conducts / gives up the heat well enough. Copper maybe? I dunno.

[MrGuy]

If you moved the "vents" for the cold air to get in, you probably wouldnt get any fume. like made a lip coming out a few cm from the bottom of the chimney bit.Dizzyguy - you wont be breathing in the same stuf as standalone coals. if you look, all the bad stuff from standalone coals are going up through the chimney at the top, and the air you're actually inhaling is coming in through the sides.The only problem i can think of is that heat management could be hard. how would you regulate the heat? but that could be solved by maybe making the coal chamber raisable. so then the cold air coming in wouldn't be next to the hot bit for as long, thus cooling it. and also, it would have to be a material that reacts quickly in temperature change.but a good idea, i like it. maybe you should try it.and great drawing btw!

[Sonthert]

If air is passing through that gizmo, it isn't helping the health effects. If it isn't passing through, the lack of oxygen will extinguish the coals. I had an Indian brass incense burner...the kind that sits on a table, with legs. I would use Japanese coals for the purpose they were intended for, incense and it would smoke nicely for a few minutes (with the lid on) and then go out again. Gunpowder disks the same effect. Without an ample flow of air, they will go out. This isn't a bug in a jar, either, air that isn't attached to a current (like a breeze or suction, whatever)diffuses very slowly. So its possible to exhaust the oxygen supply very quickly. Edit: Convection and the idea that hot air will heat the bowl enough to smoke a hookah...simply won't work.

[MrGuy]

Tangiers, it is getting an air suplpy. the coals with definately burn hot enough. the coal burning bit is effectively like a mini stove. and they burn hot enough.But on second thoughts i dont know if the air being inhaled will the in contact with the hot coal chamber thingy long enough to be hot enough for the shisha.

[Calcartman]

We're already smoking tobacco; what's the difference?If you're that concerned its probably less work to creat some sort of small electric stove - like heater to put on top.

[MrGuy]

calcartman: doesn't work i dont think, someone tried that (if the search was working, id say search electric coals but its not so....)With coals, you don't have to worry about batteries or plugging into mains.

[cymptom]

[quote name='DizzyGuy']Hmm... I dunno... I guess if it was like one of the snap on covers where you can kinda create a sealed area to make a vaccum type suction to bring the air back... but then again, will this make it too hot and start burning the shisha?  But I'm not sure it this will make the health risks less... you'll still be breathing in what you would if it was a free standing coal... in fact, you might breath more just because maybe not all of the smoke leaves the chamber or there is a build up making things worse[/quote]The air in the chamber with the coals goes nowhere but up. I don't think some of you guys are actually looking at the diagram and/or reading the description of how it's supposed to work. The coal chamber is closed off with a lid which has a vent like a smokestack. This entire chamber acts as the source of heat, much like the charcoal itself normally does, and sits on top of an outer chamber with holes in the bottom, designed to sit directly on top of the bowl. Small feet on the inner chamber keep it slightly raised so that air can pass inbetween the inner and outer chambers and down into the bowl. [quote name='Tangiers']If air is passing through that gizmo, it isn't helping the health effects.[/quote] I realize I don't know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to this kind of stuff, but I'm not [i]that[/i] dumb [quote name='Tangiers']If it isn't passing through, the lack of oxygen will extinguish the coals.[/quote]Yeah, this was one of my concerns, but I figured that charcoal burns slowly enough that it should be able to get the necessary oxygen through the vent. Besides the fact that it would make it all the more impractical, I would think that this could theoretically be solved by making a taller inner chamber with a much wider vent. [quote name='Tangiers']Edit: Convection and the idea that hot air will heat the bowl enough to smoke a hookah...simply won't work.[/quote]I know next to nothing about convection, but I was under the impression that, unless you're dropping the coal directly on top of the tobacco, hot air is in fact what normally heats the bowl. If it's not hot air, what is it?[quote name='MrGuy']But on second thoughts i dont know if the air being inhaled will the in contact with the hot coal chamber thingy long enough to be hot enough for the shisha.[/quote] Yeah, this is pretty much the most of my concerns. The only way to know for sure would be to try it... which I'm not going to do [quote name='Calcartman']We're already smoking tobacco; what's the difference?[/quote]I can't tell you guys how much this sort of mentality gets to me. Say you're using $10 charcoals right now -- would you use a $15 charcoal if it were guaranteed to be at least %50 less damaging to your lungs? A $20 solution if it were guaranteed to be completely free of health risks? Would you give in to eating donuts for lunch and dinner just because you're already eating them for breakfast? C'mon... if you think there's room for improvement, especially when it comes to your health, you need to go for it. Everyone here has already decided that they are willing to make a sacrifice to enjoy smoking hookah -- what is wrong with wanting to lessen just how much we have to damage ourselves? I obviously don't have an actual solution, but I do believe it's waiting to be found.

[Glottis]

I've heard time and time again that if it weren't for the heavy metals (rock on) in the coals then hookah would, in fact, be healthier than cigarettes without dispute.I like the way this idea is heading, however you gotta remember that the air being pulled by the coals in a normal situation help to keep them lit greatly, because you are constantly feeding them oxygen. There needs to be a better way for those coals to get air (assuming they can make enough heat anyway). I will try thinking of something else too, but we all know how well that usually goes.

[frontmanpb101]

what if there were a few vents on the bottom that were somehow sealed from the airflow part in order to get the coals more oxygen?

[Glottis]

Maybe. The thing is, the coals would need air to be circulated by them constantly to give off much heat / stay lit. So having some holes is good, but you'd need wind or something to actually push the air through. I think.

[MrGuy]

But as i mentioned, the coal holding sections is effectively like a mini stove, and they burn extremely hot.

[brettK]

good idea... dunno if it would work but clever.

[Sonthert]

The problem is you are fighting LaVoiser's principle with diffusion. Notice after your fart how long it takes for the fart to waft up to your nose and how long it takes to pass. That is from diffusion, it is slow, and the oxygen in the chamber will quickly be depleted or reduced. If the oxygen level goes down, LaVoiser's says the temperature of the coal will go down (If the reactant(s) go down, the products go down). Since heat is a product and oxygen a reactant, the coals will burn lower and cooler progressively until they go out.

[frontmanpb101]

perhaps if we were to build a large wooden badger...i dunno, i'm out of ideas short of hooking up a small fan to the little vent holes i mentioned earlier

[ghostofdavid]

Farting and physics, my two favorite subjects... in ONE post!And what about regarding women to LaVoiser's principle. After all, women NEVER fart. It is always the dog or the smell of a factory.

[Scalliwag]

[quote name='ghostofdavid']After all, women NEVER fart. It is always the dog or the smell of a factory.[/quote] It's because they never shut up long enough to build up the required pressure!

[Claytron]

I think it could work... there are two important things. You'd want put a number of holes from the outside to the base of inner chamber. That way you'd get as much oxygen as possible flowing from outside into the coals where it can flow out the top. But that's a pretty simiple modification.In theory the smoke rising would displace as proportionate amount of air back into the chamber which should keep the coals fed if you get the right number of holes. Also it seems to me that using odd shapes of charcoal - even squares - versus round bricks would provide even better flow.Also, the air inside the bowl and in the external chamber would absorb the heat from the housing and could possibly get hot enough to do the job. It strikes me as possible.You'd have to experiment with how large to make the outter chamber to allow enough airflow. Shouldn't need to be too large as all most people have are a few small holes from poking holes in foil... so it shouldn't have to be too big, but experimentation would help figure out the best configuration.I'd say ceramic would probably be the best material. It holds heat the best - which is why people use clay ovens for baking still. All encompassing, super-hot, dry heat. So once you got it really hot it would retain heat the best. You'd also probably want to have an outter lip that covers the bowl lip. It would provide a greater area of contact to allow for heat transfer and make it more secure. Because you'd get heat leaking from the pot to the bowl which would also aid in heating the shisha.I say build a prototype. I think you've got something.Just don't try and pick it up, cause it would be pretty bloody hot.

[MrGuy]

Needs to be adjustable aswell, so you can raise and lower the coal bit. If it's all static, the only heat control you have is how many coals you're using which could be problematic for certain shisha brands. Especially wif we're talking natural coals.

[Claytron]

You could easily add that by adding a series of elevated notches on the sides to rest a basket on. The basket could be some metal afair with a detachable handle (so it wouldn't get wicked hot with the rest of the pot). It would also help because you could pull the basket out to ash the coals to keep the airholes from getting too blocked.Again, I think it's doable. I'd work on a prototype myself except I don't own a kiln with which to make such a thing. : I'd leave the basket part out untill you verified that it could work.

[Claytron]

[img]http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1449/charcoalpotbc9.gif[/img]There's a similar idea with an alternative base. In this example it's three pronged - but could be more. The bottom would be similar to a plastic soda bottle. You'd have X rounded protrustions (again 3 in this case). The passages underneat would allow air to flow into the bowl. It would really depend on how hot the pot got (that's fun to say). If it got warm enough it should produce enough heat to produce smoke. This design would be simpler to test than the other I think. But you might need the other one in order to get enough heat into the bowl.The advantage of this design (assuming you could get enough heat) is that since the heat would be focused at the 'prongs', you could have a little more control over which parts of the bowl were being heated versus the entire bowl uniformly at once.

[MrGuy]

Someone tried use an electic heat element as an alternate heat source, but i don't think it worked. search the forums a bit, im sure you'll find it.Claytron, personally i dont think the incoming air will get hot enough in the time that its next to the heat source to actually vapourise the stuff.

[Claytron]

I own a vaporizor. It definitely does the job. You have more control over it as well, as you can integrate temperature control electronics, but it's not ideal. Electricity is a hassel unto itself and you have to seperate the actual cicuits from the heating element to keep them from being cooked. Not ideal for hookahs at all.It's definitely possible that it wouldn't work. It depends on whether it's the radiant heat or the air coming from suction that does most of the 'heavy lifting'. I have a feeling it's the radiant heat with minor assistance from air flow.I'm fairly confident cymptom's design would work fine with the aforementioned mods. But I was trying to think of something that would be easier to actually build. Those tight spaces with ceramics could be pretty tough to construct. Just suggesting an alternative that would be easier to experiment with.

[Sonthert]

[quote name='ghostofdavid']Farting and physics, my two favorite subjects... in ONE post!  And what about regarding women to LaVoiser's principle. After all, women NEVER fart. It is always the dog or the smell of a factory.[/quote] Or the smell of a dog factory when beans and semi-soft cheeses are involved.