Religion

[thehookahguru]

[size="4"][font="Impact"]I was born and raised as a christian but for some reason I went through an athiest phase. I think that main reason was because I was going through a rebellious phase with my parents. But all in all I am still in the same basic religion that I was raised with.[/font][/size]

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1311528730' post='517085']
[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1311526400' post='517083']
Fantastic to see so many fellow atheists checking in...
[/quote]


I am so proud of this group. Atheist is cool, but were you raised this way and accept OR come to this belief by yourself?
[/quote]

I was raised as a Hindu, but I guess since my parents never really emphasized on religion, I was left to explore my own beliefs and grew up with an agnostic mindset, and turned atheist as I learned more.

[mustafabey]

I was raised between two concepts of God.My Mother was was a rather rabid Christian, to the point of thinking her suffering equal to Christ's. My Father went along to church for the ride,but alone with me he taught his simple Cherokee beliefs and taught me love and respect for all Creation,but there was in his belief system a lacking of any central Higher Power,or perhaps he didn,t feel it time to pass that along. I was 10 when he died. I was re reading letters I had written home while I was in Vietnam, I was the atheist in the foxhole and reveled in my pseudo scientific theories "proving" the non existence of God. As the war grew more intense,as I saw much death and suffering, i was drawn to the teaching of The Buddha and his great compassion.During my years in North Africa, I explored Islam, was introduced to Sufism and found much comfort in these teachings. returning to the states,I missed my Sufi teacher and was not able to continue in a world(1975) of no Sufis. At that time I "discovered" the unity of all things thru peyote and The Native American Church. Moving to New York and getting into the club and bar business, I fell deep into alcohol and drug induced states. Most of the 80's and early 90's is still a blur in my mind.Got clean and sober in 94 and was guided by the gentle spiritualism of Alcoholics Anonymous and non denominational and non judgemental ways. During my stuggles in early sobriety, I had a great gift, an awareness of God unlike no other. I won't describe it,because I can't. There was light,warmth and an overwhelming sense of peace and love. Alot of my "religion" is about a personal relationship with a God of my own understanding. This God is all Gods,answers prayers addressed to any name we might call Her. He is part of me and part of everything in Creation. I truly believe we are all one,but can't grasp it. I have grasped moments of this understanding. With each difficulty I find the presence of God. I marvel at the truth of the lesson a Turkey Buzzard taught me on a rugged Black Hills ledge. I watched him fly with out motion,no wing flaps just a glide. He couldn't see the thermals but knew they were there. Trust in God. Of course at first God is unseen,but now as I look at the Goldfinches at my feeder,my sleeping dogs,the beauty of a wasp I can't kill even though he is in my house,the warning of a timber rattler,the power of a storm,the rebirth each spring, Oh I can see God. It reminds me of a story. Jochi was a famous Zen master. He was on a pilgrimage to visit certain holy places. He carried nothing but his clothes and begging bowl. One terrible night he came upona Tendai monastery. I guess you could say Tendai Buddhism is a lot like Catholicism. Anyway Jochi rang the bell, the abbot welcomed him,gave him a fine meal and told him he could sleep in the Buddha hall,with its great wooden statue of Buddha in meditation. Later that night the abbot heard a noise and went to investigate. He found Jochi standing on the shoulders of the great sculpture merrily pissing. The abbot was outraged. How could he,Jochi,a fellow monk and spiritual traveler desecrate the Buddha in such a manner. Jochi said when he awoke with a full bladder he went outside and saw that all things had Buddha nature and found the old statue to have the least Buddha nature about. The abbot threw him out with curses and he could be heard traveling in the night playing his flute.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1311538570' post='517100']
I was raised between two concepts of God.My Mother was was a rather rabid Christian, to the point of thinking her suffering equal to Christ's. My Father went along to church for the ride,but alone with me he taught his simple Cherokee beliefs and taught me love and respect for all Creation,but there was in his belief system a lacking of any central Higher Power,or perhaps he didn,t feel it time to pass that along. I was 10 when he died. I was re reading letters I had written home while I was in Vietnam, I was the atheist in the foxhole and reveled in my pseudo scientific theories "proving" the non existence of God. As the war grew more intense,as I saw much death and suffering, i was drawn to the teaching of The Buddha and his great compassion.During my years in North Africa, I explored Islam, was introduced to Sufism and found much comfort in these teachings. returning to the states,I missed my Sufi teacher and was not able to continue in a world(1975) of no Sufis. At that time I "discovered" the unity of all things thru peyote and The Native American Church. Moving to New York and getting into the club and bar business, I fell deep into alcohol and drug induced states. Most of the 80's and early 90's is still a blur in my mind.Got clean and sober in 94 and was guided by the gentle spiritualism of Alcoholics Anonymous and non denominational and non judgemental ways. During my stuggles in early sobriety, I had a great gift, an awareness of God unlike no other. I won't describe it,because I can't. There was light,warmth and an overwhelming sense of peace and love. Alot of my "religion" is about a personal relationship with a God of my own understanding. This God is all Gods,answers prayers addressed to any name we might call Her. He is part of me and part of everything in Creation. I truly believe we are all one,but can't grasp it. I have grasped moments of this understanding. With each difficulty I find the presence of God. I marvel at the truth of the lesson a Turkey Buzzard taught me on a rugged Black Hills ledge. I watched him fly with out motion,no wing flaps just a glide. He couldn't see the thermals but knew they were there. Trust in God. Of course at first God is unseen,but now as I look at the Goldfinches at my feeder,my sleeping dogs,the beauty of a wasp I can't kill even though he is in my house,the warning of a timber rattler,the power of a storm,the rebirth each spring, Oh I can see God. It reminds me of a story. Jochi was a famous Zen master. He was on a pilgrimage to visit certain holy places. He carried nothing but his clothes and begging bowl. One terrible night he came upona Tendai monastery. I guess you could say Tendai Buddhism is a lot like Catholicism. Anyway Jochi rang the bell, the abbot welcomed him,gave him a fine meal and told him he could sleep in the Buddha hall,with its great wooden statue of Buddha in meditation. Later that night the abbot heard a noise and went to investigate. He found Jochi standing on the shoulders of the great sculpture merrily pissing. The abbot was outraged. How could he,Jochi,a fellow monk and spiritual traveler desecrate the Buddha in such a manner. Jochi said when he awoke with a full bladder he went outside and saw that all things had Buddha nature and found the old statue to have the least Buddha nature about. The abbot threw him out with curses and he could be heard traveling in the night playing his flute.
[/quote]


WOW! Thanks for taking the time to write this, great read!

[judgeposer]

Leave it to me to return to the form for a threat about religion, albeit one not intended for debate.

I was raised in a practicing Catholic household. My mother is a "cradle" Catholic, while my father was a convert (at 19). I left the Chuch (but not theism) after my confirmation, and didn't return until my 20s. Along the way I explored various faiths but never subscribed to any. I also flirted with agnosticism, in that I experienced a period of uncertainty. In my early 20s I returned to Catholicism, and a short time after that I entered the seminary to study for the priesthood. Eventually I left the seminary when I realized I didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. I continued with school...and work..and Catholicism (to date). I'm a practicing Catholic now, and consider myself rather orthodox (small "o").

[Tyler]

This may be off topic but HOLY SHIT JUDGEPOSER IS BACK!?!?!!?!?!

[Coleman]

My father was a devout catholic, but my mother was a inactive LDS Mormon. I was raised by them but they gave me freedom to choose for myself and pushed no pressure on me to follow what they find correct. I have gone from considering myself an atheist to the agnostic I now sit at. I find no reason to believe in god but no reason not to. I find my facts questioning comes from books pertaining to the philosophy of apologetics (which is the philosophy of questioning A gods, not the, but A god's existence) I have read a book on buddhism and wish to read more, since the idea of enlightenment seems plausible to me, but again I see no proof.

what I want to say though is this. when born it is show as a light, and in death we here the cliche of walking towards the light. Isn't it plausible that when we die the light we see is that of our rebirth in to a new life as a new human being?

[Stuie]

I was raised as a Christian. Through my life I have been tested, doubted, searched for answers anywhere that could be found and eventually put a gun to my head. In the end I found Christ again.

I am a Practicing Christian that attends a Baptist Church, For those that Might understand my deeper theology is True Calvinism and Christian Hedonism (as described by John Piper).

To dispel what you might think, I love you ALL!!! Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever, alike.

[thatonethere]

My mother grew up Episcopal, and my father was a Baptist. The only times we went to church was when someone invited my mother (which naturally means that her kids had to come with her as well). My father didn't go to church until after my parents separated. My mother and sisters regularly go to church and attend a Baptist church. I don't go to church, nor do I classify myself as religious at all., however, I do see myself as a spiritual person.

I believe God is everything from a bacterium to a skyscraper building, and it's up to us to hold our environment and each other with great esteem and show the utmost respect. Edited August 3, 2011 by thatonethere

[antouwan]

[quote name='judgeposer' timestamp='1311563235' post='517122']
Leave it to me to return to the forum for a threat about religion, albeit one not intended for debate.

I was raised in a practicing Catholic household. My mother is a "cradle" Catholic, while my father was a convert (at 19). I left the Chuch (but not theism) after my confirmation, and didn't return until my 20s. Along the way I explored various faiths but never subscribed to any. I also flirted with agnosticism, in that I experienced a period of uncertainty. In my early 20s I returned to Catholicism, and a short time after that I entered the seminary to study for the priesthood. Eventually I left the seminary when I realized I didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. I continued with school...and work..and Catholicism (to date). I'm a practicing Catholic now, [b]and consider myself rather orthodox (small "o").[/b]
[/quote]

like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...

[thatonethere]

[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312413470' post='518539']
[quote name='judgeposer' timestamp='1311563235' post='517122']
Leave it to me to return to the forum for a threat about religion, albeit one not intended for debate.

I was raised in a practicing Catholic household. My mother is a "cradle" Catholic, while my father was a convert (at 19). I left the Chuch (but not theism) after my confirmation, and didn't return until my 20s. Along the way I explored various faiths but never subscribed to any. I also flirted with agnosticism, in that I experienced a period of uncertainty. In my early 20s I returned to Catholicism, and a short time after that I entered the seminary to study for the priesthood. Eventually I left the seminary when I realized I didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. I continued with school...and work..and Catholicism (to date). I'm a practicing Catholic now, [b]and consider myself rather orthodox (small "o").[/b]
[/quote]

like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

[b]i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...[/b]
[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that please?

[Kapten Kanel]

As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.

[thatonethere]

[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312417550' post='518567']
As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

[b]Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.[/b]
[/quote]

This.

[judgeposer]

[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312413470' post='518539']
like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...
[/quote]

Thanks! I hear you totally! Your journey, if I may call it that, has mirrored mine in a lot of ways. But for a few small experiences, I bet they might've been identical. I have a deep sympathy for the Traditionalist (big "T") movement within the Catholic Church. One of my best friends grapples with this routinely - as he attends Tridentine Mass, and rather loathes what has passed for "reform." For my own part, I've found a spiritual home in the ecclesial movments, which arose immediately before and immediately after Vatican II, out of countries in which Catholicism was, at the time, dangerous to practice, even outlawed. Learning from those priests, whose experiences suffering persecution, jailing, intimidation, and even witnessing torture and killings of other practicing Catholics, has strengthened my faith while at the same time reduced it to a basic, livable experience.

About your difficulties with the present Church, it seems as though you're you're own best critic and have seemed to anticipate the common rebuttals - that's the indication of a thinking believer. For my part, if it weren't for the time I spent among seminarians, novices, scholastics, and the like, in a routine of community, prayer, daily sacrifice (you know the rest probably), I don't think I would've arrived where I have, which is as a committed, practicing believer. I suppose I too operate from a similar perspective, not understanding the bureaucracy at times (and not in a conceptual sense, b/c that I - and I'm sure you - understand, but in the sense as a witness to it: What are they thinking!?), but, as said, if it weren't for my boot-camp experience of seminary, I don't think I could have "resolved" to practice as I do.

Last...about Catholic education - it is in a lamentable state, and as been for generations. The truth acknowledged by orthodox Catholics about Catholic education is that it is the surest way to loose one's faith! A terrible anecdote, but true nonetheless. I graduated from a Catholic undergrad liberal arts college, which was only nominally Catholic. I thought of going for grad work at a Pontifical school in Rome, mostly at the suggestion of my then spiritual director. In the end, I went to a truly orthodox Catholic law school where I found out about a handful of Catholic colleges known for their orthodoxy: U of Dallas, Franciscan University, Christendom, etc. Learning law in that environment was awesomely satisfying. Our professors constantly challenged our religious senses, in a good way. They were, of course, all devoutly Catholic, but knew that the best education we could receive required extreme criticism and deconstruction (if I may use that po-mo term) of ingrained religiosity because such a perspective is either bemoaned or outright unacceptable in public forums. Though, after all, I wish I studied more philosophy! An undergrad degree in it isn't enough!

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1312421621' post='518594']
[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312417550' post='518567']
As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

[b]Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.[/b]
[/quote]

This.
[/quote]

I don't understand how you can say religion survives where people suffer, I am assuming you mean poor? First of all, Sweden nor any other Nordic country is even in the top 20 when it comes to Per Capita Income or standard of living ratings, yet many of the countries who areon the list are known to be highly religious. What about Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Malaysia, Japan, UAE, the US? Sweden is lower than Canada for standard of living, according to several sources. Individually, some of the most successful "non-suffering" people I know are openly religious and mention GOD frequently. Who is richer than Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates or the Hilton family? IF you ever have children, you can raise them as you please, I see no need to criticize parents whom raise (er brainwash) their children as they see fit.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1312421621' post='518594']
[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312417550' post='518567']
As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

[b]Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.[/b]
[/quote]

This.
[/quote]

I don't understand how you can say religion survives where people suffer, I am assuming you mean poor? First of all, Sweden nor any other Nordic country is even in the top 20 when it comes to Per Capita Income or standard of living ratings, yet many of the countries who areon the list are known to be highly religious. What about Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Malaysia, Japan, UAE, the US? Sweden is lower than Canada for standard of living, according to several sources. Individually, some of the most successful "non-suffering" people I know are openly religious and mention GOD frequently. Who is richer than Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates or the Hilton family? [b] IF you ever have children, you can raise them as you please, I see no need to criticize parents whom raise (er brainwash) their children as they see fit.[/b]
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know if this thread was meant to be for debate, but since you are participating, I'd like to say I agree with you on all accounts except that. There is nothing good, or decent about brainwashing children from the very young age. Scaring children with the torment of hell and promising them eternal life at an age when they don't know any better? Telling them here, believe this, otherwise you're gonna burn in hell forever and ever. Telling them that if they believe what's written in a book, they will have heaven and live forever in eternal glory? tell them that they are evil from birth and they are born sick, greedy and are not worthy of this life or any pleasures it offers, and this life is only a waiting time for their real life to begin in heaven? Really? That seems fair to you?

Children should only be taught facts and it's not like they won't notice religion when they are growing up, and they can then make their own decision by reasoning and logic as to whether they want to accept it or not.

Go to youtube and search for "Deborah 13", see it and tell me that it is alright to brainwash children if you see it fit. They are people, not anyone's property btw.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312457944' post='518637']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1312421621' post='518594']
[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312417550' post='518567']
As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

[b]Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.[/b]
[/quote]

This.
[/quote]

I don't understand how you can say religion survives where people suffer, I am assuming you mean poor? First of all, Sweden nor any other Nordic country is even in the top 20 when it comes to Per Capita Income or standard of living ratings, yet many of the countries who areon the list are known to be highly religious. What about Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Malaysia, Japan, UAE, the US? Sweden is lower than Canada for standard of living, according to several sources. Individually, some of the most successful "non-suffering" people I know are openly religious and mention GOD frequently. Who is richer than Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates or the Hilton family? [b]IF you ever have children, you can raise them as you please, I see no need to criticize parents whom raise (er brainwash) their children as they see fit.[/b]
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know if this thread was meant to be for debate, but since you are participating, I'd like to say I agree with you on all accounts except that. There is nothing good, or decent about brainwashing children from the very young age. Scaring children with the torment of hell and promising them eternal life at an age when they don't know any better? Telling them here, believe this, otherwise you're gonna burn in hell forever and ever. Telling them that if they believe what's written in a book, they will have heaven and live forever in eternal glory? tell them that they are evil from birth and they are born sick, greedy and are not worthy of this life or any pleasures it offers, and this life is only a waiting time for their real life to begin in heaven? Really? That seems fair to you?

Children should only be taught facts and it's not like they won't notice religion when they are growing up, and they can then make their own decision by reasoning and logic as to whether they want to accept it or not.

Go to youtube and search for "Deborah 13", see it and tell me that it is alright to brainwash children if you see it fit. They are people, not anyone's property btw.
[/quote]

I am ALWAYS up for a debate! I agree and parents who teach their kids that way are sick. I have three kids and teach first grade, so I feel pretty "up to speed" I think on what kids can handle at different ages. Good parents know what their kids will accept. In Islam, for example, we are not supposed to expect anything from them religious until they are 10 years old. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying "Grandma died and she's in heaven." It is in how you present it. I, for one, was scared to death of the Catholic Church, I mentioned this early I was a sensitive child, all that incense and hanging dead body on the wall freaked me out. A lot of churches and Mosques have children's areas where they are read stories and have puppet shows and songs. In a world as it is today, what is wrong with instilling faith and hope early?

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312417550' post='518567']
[size="3"][b]As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. [/b][/size]The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.
[/quote]

[size="2"]Then WHY does Sweden list itself as 87% Lutheran, Norway lists itself as 85% "Church of Norway-Pentacostal"? [/size]

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312458808' post='518638']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312457944' post='518637']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1312421621' post='518594']
[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312417550' post='518567']
As the absolute majority of people in Sweden, i was raised without any religion or similar whatsoever. The whole religion vs atheist thing doesnt even exist over here (as in all of northern europe, which incidentally also in general is the most "developed" and "advanced" area in the world), religion has no part in peoples life. I believe kids should be raised with a logical, skeptical and moral/ethic ground to stand on, they can then choose if they want to "believe" in something when they grow up, anything else i see as brainwashing.

[b]Religion thrives were people suffer, its a way of coping with life. It also remains in areas that are developed but are part of the general culture (or a learned behaviour from parents etc) like parts of the USA.[/b]
[/quote]

This.
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I don't understand how you can say religion survives where people suffer, I am assuming you mean poor? First of all, Sweden nor any other Nordic country is even in the top 20 when it comes to Per Capita Income or standard of living ratings, yet many of the countries who areon the list are known to be highly religious. What about Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Malaysia, Japan, UAE, the US? Sweden is lower than Canada for standard of living, according to several sources. Individually, some of the most successful "non-suffering" people I know are openly religious and mention GOD frequently. Who is richer than Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates or the Hilton family? [b]IF you ever have children, you can raise them as you please, I see no need to criticize parents whom raise (er brainwash) their children as they see fit.[/b]
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know if this thread was meant to be for debate, but since you are participating, I'd like to say I agree with you on all accounts except that. There is nothing good, or decent about brainwashing children from the very young age. Scaring children with the torment of hell and promising them eternal life at an age when they don't know any better? Telling them here, believe this, otherwise you're gonna burn in hell forever and ever. Telling them that if they believe what's written in a book, they will have heaven and live forever in eternal glory? tell them that they are evil from birth and they are born sick, greedy and are not worthy of this life or any pleasures it offers, and this life is only a waiting time for their real life to begin in heaven? Really? That seems fair to you?

Children should only be taught facts and it's not like they won't notice religion when they are growing up, and they can then make their own decision by reasoning and logic as to whether they want to accept it or not.

Go to youtube and search for "Deborah 13", see it and tell me that it is alright to brainwash children if you see it fit. They are people, not anyone's property btw.
[/quote]

I am ALWAYS up for a debate! I agree and parents who teach their kids that way are sick. I have three kids and teach first grade, so I feel pretty "up to speed" I think on what kids can handle at different ages. Good parents know what their kids will accept. In Islam, for example, we are not supposed to expect anything from them religious until they are 10 years old. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying "Grandma died and she's in heaven." It is in how you present it. I, for one, was scared to death of the Catholic Church, I mentioned this early I was a sensitive child, all that incense and hanging dead body on the wall freaked me out. A lot of churches and Mosques have children's areas where they are read stories and have puppet shows and songs. In a world as it is today, what is wrong with instilling faith and hope early?
[/quote]

See, there are problems when it comes to religion and children, faith if you look at it deeply, is not a virtue, but gullibility. If I were to tell you that I am selling 3 KM hookahs in perfect condition with 10kg of fresh shisha for $100, without showing you the pictures, or providing any evidence of possessing such items, you will not take my word on faith will you?

Now as an adult, you are free to believe whatever you wish and take decisions based on that, and one can also say that an adult has the ability to decide what things they should take on faith, and what they shouldn't, but you can't expect the same reasoning from a 10 year old now can you?

You may not teach those things to children, but when we talk about parents teaching religion to children, let's talk odds and not exceptions, and majority of the muslim people I know (I am in india, lots of people from all religions but less from christianity so can't comment there) teach those things to young impressionable minds, when they lack the ability to see the wrong from the right. Now I am not saying that whatever they are being taught is wrong, just that they don't know if it is right or wrong and will take their parent's word for it.

I have a friend who is a mother of 3 kids, and yesterday she told me how happy she is that her youngest son (7 years of age) is fasting. What good is he doing himself by starving himself at that age? And all 3 her kids go to mosque for religious teachings...her eldest daughter had finished her quran by the age of 14, and her second daughter is very close. There are nice things in the quran, I have read it some.

But there are also things that you don't want children reading about. A few verses - 9.111, 2:27, 3:151, 8:12 come to mind right now. I don't think 10 year olds should be reading that really.

Another thing I'd disagree with you on is that islam doesn't expect anything of children until they are 10. I believe it expects a lot from them since they are born, like circumcision. I don't know why people look at a baby and say, "oh, how beautiful, perfect, [b]almost [/b]perfect, now give me my tools so I can start mutilating his genitals, because god's handy work is so rusty.".

There are a lot of things I could say right now that is wrong with teaching children about religion at a young age, but I sense this might turn heated.

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
I don't understand how you can say religion survives where people suffer, I am assuming you mean poor?
[/quote]

This is selfexplanatory, no need to dive into that. The correlation is obvious.

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
First of all, Sweden nor any other Nordic country is even in the top 20 when it comes to Per Capita Income or standard of living ratings.
[/quote]

Someone needs to check their sources. The nordic countries are world renowned for their standard of living and wellfare systems. This is just funny, you realize that, [b]Norway[/b], the country that tops every damn (positive) list in existance, belongs to the nordic countries/scandinavia? Sweden, Finland and Denmark are not far behind either.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita"]http://en.wikipedia....l%29_per_capita[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI"]http://en.wikipedia....ty-adjusted_HDI[/url]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009-1.png[/img]


It speaks for itself.

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
yet many of the countries who areon the list are known to be highly religious. What about Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Malaysia, Japan, UAE, the US?
[/quote]

Qatar - Oil. Brunei can barely be called a real country, 400K population, oil and natural gas is 50% GDP, just no. Kuwait - Oil. UAE - Oil. You see where im going? USA - see what i wrote earlier (culture etc). Japan is [b]not[/b] a religious country, just because people are written at a church or similar, does not mean they are active or believers at all, its the same with sweden (where every newborn automatically joined the church all the way up to 1995).


[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
Sweden is lower than Canada for standard of living, according to several sources.
[/quote]

No.

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
Individually, some of the most successful "non-suffering" people I know are openly religious and mention GOD frequently. Who is richer than Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates or the Hilton family?
[/quote]

Irrelevant anecdotes. And oprah, bill and hilton? Honestly you dont see the flaw here?

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312456611' post='518635']
IF you ever have children, you can raise them as you please, I see no need to criticize parents whom raise (er brainwash) their children as they see fit.
[/quote]

As they see fit? Yes, to a certain degree. Making them believe and folllow fairytales on the other hand, is not ok. Your childhood and raising has a very profound effect on you as an adult, a child raised as religious will NEVER be truly free to choose - This is not even arguable.

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312459544' post='518639']
[size="2"]Then WHY does Sweden list itself as 87% Lutheran, Norway lists itself as 85% "Church of Norway-Pentacostal"? [/size]
[/quote]

I love how you took that out of context and just ignored the actual facts -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

(also its exactly the same for norway and any other nordic country)

Taken from above link -

[i]"The reason for the large number of inactive members is partly that until 1996, children automatically became members at birth if at least one of the parents was a member. Since 1996, only children that are christened become members.[/i]"

Also it is still in the culture to get christened (its called "dop" in swedish and the religous connection is barely there, its something people "just do", again culture etc...). Trust me, religion has no weight here.

[i]"Despite a high formal membership rate in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Sweden"]Church of Sweden[/url], some studies have found Sweden to be one of the least religious countries in the world, with one of the highest levels of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism"]atheism[/url].[/i]"

[Scrappydoo]

I don't even know how to "rebutt" someone who digs stuff off of wikipedia. LOL! Oh my GOD! Just go your path and I'll go mine and we both think each other is a fool. Have you ever been to Japan? Anywhere besides Sweden? Have children of your own? I rest my case.

[Hellz]

I personally have no belief, I find that there are other things more important in life to occupy myself with. I respect everyones choice in thier religion - so long as they do not start preaching to me and trying to shove it down my throat. This mostly happens with christians, But eh. Anyway I was raised to be catholic, but found myself quickly just not caring at all, about any of it. Funny though, My daughters first name is Paegan, Middle name is Jezebel. You know why? Simple: I liked the names so that's what I named her. You wouldnt believe how many random strangers are offended by her name, or just completely demonize me and her for it. I was in wal-mart one time and I was shopping for cloths for her (she was with me) She was 6 months old at the time, This lady seen her and came over and told me how beautiful she was and whatnot, and asked me her name. When I told her my daughters name, She freaked out and started ranting about how her soul needs saving and prying on the spot. I'ma stop now, or i'll go into a rant. anyway - yea, I dont have any beliefs because I just do not care.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Hellz' timestamp='1312471811' post='518678']
I personally have no belief, I find that there are other things more important in life to occupy myself with. I respect everyones choice in thier religion - so long as they do not start preaching to me and trying to shove it down my throat. This mostly happens with christians, But eh. Anyway I was raised to be catholic, but found myself quickly just not caring at all, about any of it. Funny though, My daughters first name is Paegan, Middle name is Jezebel. You know why? Simple: I liked the names so that's what I named her. You wouldnt believe how many random strangers are offended by her name, or just completely demonize me and her for it. I was in wal-mart one time and I was shopping for cloths for her (she was with me) She was 6 months old at the time, This lady seen her and came over and told me how beautiful she was and whatnot, and asked me her name. When I told her my daughters name, She freaked out and started ranting about how her soul needs saving and prying on the spot. I'ma stop now, or i'll go into a rant. anyway - yea, I dont have any beliefs because I just do not care.
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The reason I started this thread was NOT to argue about what people believe but I am curious as to how far people stray from how they were raised. I think Paegan Jezebel is a fine name! I was in Walmart in Georgia one time and this Christian lady got on my ass about how me and both of my daughters were wearing pants. She followed me clear out of the store! You just have to steer clear of the crazies and there are extremists in every religion and in no religion. Such is life.

[Hellz]

Oh I agree. I can understand why a person has a religious belief and follows it, But I do not understand the extremists. I have read into, and about many religion. Because as I do not believe in anything spiritual, I do believe in gaining knowledge. There are alot of interesting religions out there, and even more interesting reasons why people believe what they believe.