Religion

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312471331' post='518677']
I don't even know how to "rebutt" someone who digs stuff off of wikipedia. LOL! Oh my GOD! Just go your path and I'll go mine and we both think each other is a fool. Have you ever been to Japan? Anywhere besides Sweden? Have children of your own? I rest my case.


[/quote]

Good times, good times...

1. I gave a source, you have not, at all, laugh all you want, try to[b] think[/b] instead, might do you some good.

2. Wikipedia is not the actual source (for most of it), you can check up on those lists yourself. Wikipedia itself is quite reliable too, dont go with the hype/rumours. "Nordic countries not even in the top 20 GDP"... Shows your general knowledge level.

3. Where i have been and not and whether i have kids or not is [size="6"][b]irrelevant[/b][/size], and so is your personal experiences.

4. Japan? Do not compare the" spirituality" that exists there with christianity, islam etc, there are few similarities.

5. Most of the countries you mentioned, including Kuwait, would be[b] [size="4"]nothing[/size][/b], without the oil, and their economies will [size="4"][b]crumble[/b][/size], when the oil reserves dwindle. Norway, on the other hand, is like Sweden, but with some oil added to the economy, they will do fine without it.

6. I compose a long-ass reply explaining a few obvious facts and how i think you are wrong, and this[b] SHIT[/b] is what i get for an answer. You probably barely even read it. -

[size="7"][b]OWNED[/b][/size]

[Scrappydoo]

Again, I am not going to debate with a person who cites wikipedia as a source, is 21 years old and has never been anywhere. Yeah. Owned. Did you even read what this thread was about? I am going to put you in the "follows whatever mama and dada tells me to" pile and any further comments by you will be ignored.

[Dr. B]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312463334' post='518644']
See... faith if you look at it deeply, is not a virtue, but gullibility. [/quote]
Did I miss the period in history when objective truth and an objective reality were established?

I propose that you prove your existence without the use of circular reasoning and conclusions based off intuition alone. You, as a human, are likely to champion the definitions of the world around you which are intuitive to you but are not necessarily logically sound. You're just as gullible as anyone else, in that respect.

[quote]If I were to tell you that I am selling 3 KM hookahs in perfect condition with 10kg of fresh shisha for $100, without showing you the pictures, or providing any evidence of possessing such items, you will not take my word on faith will you?
[/quote]

This is a completely different type of faith on a dissimilar scale.

/not going to give my opinion
//just came to break down some arguments

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
Again, I am not going to debate
[/quote]

You do not have the ability to debate, obviously.

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
with a person who cites wikipedia as a source,
[/quote]

Read my earlier reply again.


[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
is 21 years old and has never been anywhere.
[/quote]

That was almost funny, try again, [size="4"][b]troll[/b][/size].

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
Did you even read what this thread was about?
[/quote]

Yes, its called "Religion", nothing more, nothing less. On the other hand, are you even capable of reading? Your replies tells otherwise. (yes, im going down to your level).


[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
I am going to put you in the "follows whatever mama and dada tells me to" pile and any further comments by you will be ignored.
[/quote]

Put "me" in whatever "pile" you want, i will be here waiting for a decent reply from you, so we can have an actual discussion. Or is that to much to expect from you?
Are you afraid of what will happen if you actually think through your behavior and beliefs?

Come down from the high horse, you are not sitting on it, you are hanging onto the sadle with your bare hands, looking like a fool.

[Dr. B]

Well to be fair Kanel, the GINI coefficient is just an observed measure of income disparity and not of quality of life. It has rarely, if ever, been used in studies as an explanatory variable to predict measures of quality of life. It's just a neat observation about income disparity, not an especially robust function.

And Sweden was #22 in world GDP (nominal), according to the CIA Factbook, The World Bank, and the IMF. Norway 25,23,25, respectively. I don't know how much that has to do with your original point but I did see you reference the top 20 standings incorrectly earlier. Edit: The numbers are even lower for (real) GDP.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312481032' post='518704']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
Again, I am not going to debate
[/quote]

You do not have the ability to debate, obviously.

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
with a person who cites wikipedia as a source,
[/quote]

Read my earlier reply again.


[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
is 21 years old and has never been anywhere.
[/quote]

That was almost funny, try again, [size="4"][b]troll[/b][/size].

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
Did you even read what this thread was about?
[/quote]

Yes, its called "Religion", nothing more, nothing less. On the other hand, are you even capable of reading? Your replies tells otherwise. (yes, im going down to your level).


[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312478005' post='518696']
I am going to put you in the "follows whatever mama and dada tells me to" pile and any further comments by you will be ignored.
[/quote]

Put "me" in whatever "pile" you want, i will be here waiting for a decent reply from you, so we can have an actual discussion. Or is that to much to expect from you?
Are you afraid of what will happen if you actually think through your behavior and beliefs?

Come down from the high horse, you are not sitting on it, you are hanging onto the sadle with your bare hands, looking like a fool.
[/quote]

I'm done here with you. You can call me names, it doesn't bother me one bit. I personally don't care what you believe in or teach your kids. I have been to Sweden, not impressed. Your lack of basic English grammar and tendency to believe whatever you read on the internet just makes me feel it would be a waste of time. No matter what your wikipedia map color you are. Obviously you are out just to attack whatever thread you can find to spark hate, so I hope you find another hobby that doesn't make you so angry and ugly. I just pity you.

[evilded777]

In the end, I'm not that much different from my parents. But then, my parents pretty much just live and do not think about the subject too much (this is just a surmise). I was raised nominally Catholic, but looking back on it I was never really forced into anything after my first communion. I never followed through with anything after that, because I chose not to. I was raised to have an open mind. And to this day, that is one of my favorite sayings: An open mind is the best defense.

And having opened my story with what appears to be reason and logic, I will tell you that I am a Neo-Pagan and a magician. I believe in God, and I do no use faith as a convenient place to hide. I have experienced the presence of of God, though the name by which I call Her has not been mentioned yet in this thread.

The arrogance and disdain with which many of you disparage terms like "faith" and by association those of us who have it, is really staggering. I don't think you even realize how offensive some of things you say are.

Faith is not a bad thing. Faith is a glorious thing. But true faith is NOT blind... faith infers trust, and only the ignorant or foolish would put their trust in something without some good reason. The problem is not with faith, the problem is with human ignorance, stupidity and in the end: fallibility.

Ok, granted that comes off kinda high-handed... I admit it. I'm not humble, but I don't really consider myself to be "better" than most people. I will give everyone here huge applause and definite elevation above the majority of the herd simply because you are capable of self-reflection. That seems to be beyond most people; so even if you don't do it often, or well, or for very long... you're stronger than most.

[url="http://www.chariotswheels.com/what-i-believe.aspx"]What I Believe[/url]

[Dr. B]

Ooops, didn't see the PER CAPITA part about GDP standings. Ignore that last part of my post

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312481901' post='518708']
Well to be fair Kanel, the GINI coefficient is just an observed measure of income disparity and not of quality of life. It has rarely, if ever, been used in studies as an explanatory variable to predict measures of quality of life. It's just a neat observation about income disparity, not an especially robust function.

And Sweden was #22 in world GDP (nominal), according to the CIA Factbook, The World Bank, and the IMF. Norway 25,23,25, respectively. I don't know how much that has to do with your original point but I did see you reference the top 20 standings incorrectly earlier. Edit: The numbers are even lower for (real) GDP.
[/quote]

According to World Bank, according to CIA Factbook, according to Forbe's Magazine, according to the United Nations; Quality of life, price indexing, loss of income to taxes, quality of health care, cost of housing, there are a lot of factors and in those, Sweden is not top 20 in any. This is for YOU, Dr. B, not KK.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312481027' post='518703']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312463334' post='518644']
See... faith if you look at it deeply, is not a virtue, but gullibility. [/quote]
Did I miss the period in history when objective truth and an objective reality were established?

I propose that you prove your existence without the use of circular reasoning and conclusions based off intuition alone. You, as a human, are likely to champion the definitions of the world around you which are intuitive to you but are not necessarily logically sound. You're just as gullible as anyone else, in that respect.

[quote]If I were to tell you that I am selling 3 KM hookahs in perfect condition with 10kg of fresh shisha for $100, without showing you the pictures, or providing any evidence of possessing such items, you will not take my word on faith will you?
[/quote]

This is a completely different type of faith on a dissimilar scale.

/not going to give my opinion
//just came to break down some arguments
[/quote]

Prove my existence? I am visible, people talk to me, and I respond. I am present in the physical world. I may have misunderstood your question (haven't slept for 3 nights) but are you trying to say that I have to rely on faith somehow to prove that I exist?

Faith is faith Sir! What different types of faiths are there? I define it as "belief which is not based on evidence". Can you kindly tell me any other definition of it? I am open to learning new things.

Anyway, I wasn't here to either insult anyone or question anyone's beliefs. I was only debating the merits/demerits of teaching religion to children.

[Chreees]

Respect is very important on this forum, and especially on a thread such as this. Keep that in mind (please refer to rule #1). Posts have been removed that were deemed disrespectful. Vacations will be given out next time it happens. Thanks.

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312481901' post='518708']
Well to be fair Kanel, the GINI coefficient is just an observed measure of income disparity and not of quality of life. It has rarely, if ever, been used in studies as an explanatory variable to predict measures of quality of life. It's just a neat observation about income disparity, not an especially robust function.

And Sweden was #22 in world GDP (nominal), according to the CIA Factbook, The World Bank, and the IMF. Norway 25,23,25, respectively. I don't know how much that has to do with your original point but I did see you reference the top 20 standings incorrectly earlier. Edit: The numbers are even lower for (real) GDP.
[/quote]

GINI, together with the two other links i gave, certainly means something. Per capita is what is relevant and actually means something in this "discussion". You have my sources (wikipedia is just the intermediary, so dont go there). The nordic countries makes most of the world look like a third world mess in comparison, that is not an opinion, its a fact. Sweden isnt one of the world leading countries in science, research and technology for nothing (and per capita/for its size, it beats most if not all). Yes, that correlates with HDI, economy and general wellfare. Believe what you want.
General wellfare = less religion, still stands. Then you can draw your own conclusions from that in the matter.

And yes, its sad how this developed in general and how it turned into me defending scandinavia.

Im sorry that you didnt like sweden, scrappy. Care to point out what you didnt like?

[Dr. B]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312486088' post='518721']
Prove my existence? I am visible, people talk to me, and I respond. I am present in the physical world. I may have misunderstood your question (haven't slept for 3 nights) but are you trying to say that I have to rely on faith somehow to prove that I exist?

Faith is faith Sir! What different types of faiths are there? I define it as "belief which is not based on evidence". Can you kindly tell me any other definition of it? I am open to learning new things.

Anyway, I wasn't here to either insult anyone or question anyone's beliefs. I was only debating the merits/demerits of teaching religion to children.
[/quote]

The proof of existence is an exercise in establishing objectivity, which there is no complete basis for. Granted, arguments that rest on the shoulders of conclusions which rely on a minimal number of assumptions or instances of circular reasoning are themselves practical for purposes of understanding, but all considerations for objective existence, or the quantification of, boil down to taking some premise for granted. This is faith. It is not belief in the absence of evidence, but rather belief derived from the existence of belief itself. The spiel about intuition in my post is an allusion to the tendency of people to believe more strongly in the assumptions that are seemingly simple and resolute, but without correct argumentation to support them (facts). We label these axioms or initial perceptions; and example of which is that 1 = 1. The concept of a solitary unit (and consequently multiple units) of account is fundamental to our understanding of the world in which we live, or my world in which you all live, but is tragically lacking argumentation in its defense in which the establishment of it (the conclusion) does not depend on its existence (a premise). Think about it.

Regardless of the attributes or characteristics or personification which you ascribe to a deity, the fundamental belief that it exists is no different from the belief that it does not. Both take initial perceptions for granted - it is the resulting synthesis over many strata that establishes such divergent worldviews amongst believers and nonbelievers.

KK: I don't especially feel like taking a side in your and Scrappy's Sweden debate, I was just scrutinizing the information in play. The GINI coefficient is an endogenous product of an environment and when considered exogenous in a model does not determine anything, necessarily. I posit that a country in which 99 inhabitants are taken care of by the 100th person's wealth, without claiming ownership of it, would produce a GINI coefficient that would indicate extreme dissatisfaction to you. Exogenous to this model is that these people are the happiest people on the planet. The GINI coefficient is only a measure of wealth ownership distribution and not [i]necessarily[/i] indicative of quality of life. That's all I'm saying.

Also, you'll notice that I corrected myself for using GDP figures and not GDP-per-capita figures.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312513071' post='518763']
Regardless of the attributes or characteristics or personification which you ascribe to a deity, the fundamental belief that it exists is no different from the belief that it does not. Both take initial perceptions for granted - it is the resulting synthesis over many strata that establishes such divergent worldviews amongst believers and nonbelievers.
[/quote]


Sorry, but that is not correct. The fundamental belief that a deity exists take the initial perception for granted. Non-believing it on my part has taken the absence of any proof that it exists. I see bad things happening in the world, terrible terrible things. I have seen millions of prayers go unanswered, and never feeling any presence of any deity in my own personal life. I haven't taken it for granted in anyway imaginable, it's just not there.

I can say that the god most people pray to comes into my invisible castle everyday and tends to my immaculate garden for food. Now if you don't believe it, you are not taking anything for granted, the burden of proving it is on me.

[Epoch]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312550189' post='518828']


I can say that the god most people pray to comes into my invisible castle everyday and tends to my immaculate garden for food. Now if you don't believe it, you are not taking anything for granted,[b] the burden of proving[/b] it is on me.
[/quote]

Agreed...

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1312576237' post='518902']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312550189' post='518828']
I can say that the god most people pray to comes into my invisible castle everyday and tends to my immaculate garden for food. Now if you don't believe it, you are not taking anything for granted,[b] the burden of proving[/b] it is on me.
[/quote]

Agreed...
[/quote]

SO to be clear, you don't believe in anything you can't hold in your hands and/or see? What about love? Do you believe in love? Fate? Karma? Sounds like an empty existence to me.

[Epoch]

There's a fundamental difference between believing in ideas and believing in the existence of deities.

Love is something we do with our minds, we make that connection with a tangible, real person who we actually interact with.



It's certainly not empty, either. I fully enjoy the company of people, the sights and sounds of the natural world, and being driven to make this life (the only one I'll ever have) worthwhile! Edited August 5, 2011 by Epoch

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1312577372' post='518906']
There's a fundamental difference between believing in ideas and believing in the existence of deities.

Love is something we do with our minds, we make that connection with a tangible, real person who we actually interact with.



It's certainly not empty, either. I fully enjoy the company of people, the sights and sounds of the natural world, and being driven to make this life (the only one I'll ever have) worthwhile!
[/quote]


GOOD answer, thanks! For me, love and faith come from the same place in my heart. (ok, I was a science major--brain.)

[Epoch]

Thanks for this topic, Scrappydoo! I just try to enjoy everything in my life as it is.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312576949' post='518905']
[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1312576237' post='518902']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312550189' post='518828']
I can say that the god most people pray to comes into my invisible castle everyday and tends to my immaculate garden for food. Now if you don't believe it, you are not taking anything for granted,[b] the burden of proving[/b] it is on me.
[/quote]

Agreed...
[/quote]

SO to be clear, you don't believe in anything you can't hold in your hands and/or see? What about love? Do you believe in love? Fate? Karma? Sounds like an empty existence to me.
[/quote]

See, I'll try to address each of those points individually.

No, I don't believe in karma. The things I've seen in my 24 year old life, seeing people do horrible horrible things to others and their families, and then dying comfortably in their old age, never having suffered any of the things they should have considering the things they did. I've seen people get away cleanly after doing shit that can make you shudder. I've seen people contributing their entire short lives in ensuring that others are not treated badly and people who went out of their way to look after their friends and families, and dying horrible deaths, suffering in their last months.

I don't believe in fate, I try my best to achieve everything I want and it really worries me to leave anything to fate. Things that will happen, will happen. People who believe in luck and fate generally tend to put less efforts in achieving their goals, and I am NOT one of them.

Love, morals, these things are innate to humans, we are born with them, and religion very arrogantly borrows such ideas from humanity itself and labels it as theirs. Even animals that don't follow any religion know and feel and practice love. I've felt love, I've not felt god.

And just because I don't believe in karma doesn't mean I am a sociopath capable of committing horrendous things, because as I mentioned, morals are innate to us. Good people are good, bad people are bad.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312578189' post='518909']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312576949' post='518905']
[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1312576237' post='518902']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312550189' post='518828']
I can say that the god most people pray to comes into my invisible castle everyday and tends to my immaculate garden for food. Now if you don't believe it, you are not taking anything for granted,[b] the burden of proving[/b] it is on me.
[/quote]

Agreed...
[/quote]

SO to be clear, you don't believe in anything you can't hold in your hands and/or see? What about love? Do you believe in love? Fate? Karma? Sounds like an empty existence to me.
[/quote]

See, I'll try to address each of those points individually.

No, I don't believe in karma. The things I've seen in my 24 year old life, seeing people do horrible horrible things to others and their families, and then dying comfortably in their old age, never having suffered any of the things they should have considering the things they did. I've seen people get away cleanly after doing shit that can make you shudder. I've seen people contributing their entire short lives in ensuring that others are not treated badly and people who went out of their way to look after their friends and families, and dying horrible deaths, suffering in their last months.

I don't believe in fate, I try my best to achieve everything I want and it really worries me to leave anything to fate. Things that will happen, will happen. People who believe in luck and fate generally tend to put less efforts in achieving their goals, and I am NOT one of them.

Love, morals, these things are innate to humans, we are born with them, and religion very arrogantly borrows such ideas from humanity itself and labels it as theirs. Even animals that don't follow any religion know and feel and practice love. I've felt love, I've not felt god.

And just because I don't believe in karma doesn't mean I am a sociopath capable of committing horrendous things, because as I mentioned, morals are innate to us. Good people are good, bad people are bad.
[/quote]

Well, I AGREE! Morals and religion have very little to do with each other. One of my best friends is a staunch atheist and the sweetest girl you'll ever know. My grandmother is a Lutheran and one of those people who sit in the front row at church and then is downright cruel to people all week. I think Karma has a way of biting people in the ass, you might never see it but I've seen quite a few cases where this is true. He may just look like he has the perfect life.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312578524' post='518912']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312578189' post='518909']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312576949' post='518905']
[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1312576237' post='518902']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312550189' post='518828']
I can say that the god most people pray to comes into my invisible castle everyday and tends to my immaculate garden for food. Now if you don't believe it, you are not taking anything for granted,[b] the burden of proving[/b] it is on me.
[/quote]

Agreed...
[/quote]

SO to be clear, you don't believe in anything you can't hold in your hands and/or see? What about love? Do you believe in love? Fate? Karma? Sounds like an empty existence to me.
[/quote]

See, I'll try to address each of those points individually.

No, I don't believe in karma. The things I've seen in my 24 year old life, seeing people do horrible horrible things to others and their families, and then dying comfortably in their old age, never having suffered any of the things they should have considering the things they did. I've seen people get away cleanly after doing shit that can make you shudder. I've seen people contributing their entire short lives in ensuring that others are not treated badly and people who went out of their way to look after their friends and families, and dying horrible deaths, suffering in their last months.

I don't believe in fate, I try my best to achieve everything I want and it really worries me to leave anything to fate. Things that will happen, will happen. People who believe in luck and fate generally tend to put less efforts in achieving their goals, and I am NOT one of them.

Love, morals, these things are innate to humans, we are born with them, and religion very arrogantly borrows such ideas from humanity itself and labels it as theirs. Even animals that don't follow any religion know and feel and practice love. I've felt love, I've not felt god.

And just because I don't believe in karma doesn't mean I am a sociopath capable of committing horrendous things, because as I mentioned, morals are innate to us. Good people are good, bad people are bad.
[/quote]

Well, I AGREE! Morals and religion have very little to do with each other. One of my best friends is a staunch atheist and the sweetest girl you'll ever know. My grandmother is a Lutheran and one of those people who sit in the front row at church and then is downright cruel to people all week. I think Karma has a way of biting people in the ass, you might never see it but I've seen quite a few cases where this is true. He may just look like he has the perfect life.
[/quote]

Cool! It just happens to be that my best friend ever is a very devout muslim, and I love her. And Karma may be there. I am not rigid, if I see it, I'll believe it.

[Dr. B]

You completely misunderstood me, Vendetta. Read what I wrote again and try not to think of it in the context of religion, especially when I asked you not to attribute any characteristics to G-d. Making the argument about something you're not so passionate about... might make it easier to understand.

Just in case, however, let me be blunt: You are taking just as much for granted by assuming that there is no G-d as a believer takes for granted that there is. It comes down to defining existence, which there is no superior interpretation of.

[antouwan]

[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1312417233' post='518566']
[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312413470' post='518539']
[quote name='judgeposer' timestamp='1311563235' post='517122']
Leave it to me to return to the forum for a threat about religion, albeit one not intended for debate.

I was raised in a practicing Catholic household. My mother is a "cradle" Catholic, while my father was a convert (at 19). I left the Chuch (but not theism) after my confirmation, and didn't return until my 20s. Along the way I explored various faiths but never subscribed to any. I also flirted with agnosticism, in that I experienced a period of uncertainty. In my early 20s I returned to Catholicism, and a short time after that I entered the seminary to study for the priesthood. Eventually I left the seminary when I realized I didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. I continued with school...and work..and Catholicism (to date). I'm a practicing Catholic now, [b]and consider myself rather orthodox (small "o").[/b]
[/quote]

like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

[b]i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...[/b]
[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that please?
[/quote]


it's all just rather cheap isn't it, all of that new age spiritualism? people act like anything can be a belief, and anyone and their mom can start a church (i believe there are over 30,000 "Christian" churches now alone. this pandora's box that has been opened has cheapened the whole religious experience, and give people who practice religion(s) a bad name. the "spiritual but not religious" thing is the biggest scam in history! it's all of these people who either feel they don't have to sacrifice, or that they're too "wise," "smart," "developed" or whatever the hell else they want to call themselves to get out of having to humble themselves by saying that they themselves are subject to a God. instead, they say "i'm spiritual, but not religious" or one of those asshats that "meditates" but avoids praying because it might doc some style points.

the new age crap is just rather cheap, that's all. i guess it's where the modern world would end up - it's only natural it seems.

[quote name='judgeposer' timestamp='1312430785' post='518619']
[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312413470' post='518539']
like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...
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Thanks! I hear you totally! Your journey, if I may call it that, has mirrored mine in a lot of ways. But for a few small experiences, I bet they might've been identical. I have a deep sympathy for the Traditionalist (big "T") movement within the Catholic Church. One of my best friends grapples with this routinely - as he attends Tridentine Mass, and rather loathes what has passed for "reform." For my own part, I've found a spiritual home in the ecclesial movments, which arose immediately before and immediately after Vatican II, out of countries in which Catholicism was, at the time, dangerous to practice, even outlawed. Learning from those priests, whose experiences suffering persecution, jailing, intimidation, and even witnessing torture and killings of other practicing Catholics, has strengthened my faith while at the same time reduced it to a basic, livable experience.

About your difficulties with the present Church, it seems as though you're you're own best critic and have seemed to anticipate the common rebuttals - that's the indication of a thinking believer. For my part, if it weren't for the time I spent among seminarians, novices, scholastics, and the like, in a routine of community, prayer, daily sacrifice (you know the rest probably), I don't think I would've arrived where I have, which is as a committed, practicing believer. I suppose I too operate from a similar perspective, [i]not understanding the bureaucracy at times (and not in a conceptual sense, b/c that I - and I'm sure you - understand, but in the sense as a witness to it: What are they thinking!?)[/i], but, as said, if it weren't for my boot-camp experience of seminary, I don't think I could have "resolved" to practice as I do.

[b]Last...about Catholic education - it is in a lamentable state, and as been for generations.[/b] The truth acknowledged by orthodox Catholics about Catholic education is that it is the surest way to loose one's faith! A terrible anecdote, but true nonetheless. I graduated from a Catholic undergrad liberal arts college, which was only nominally Catholic. I thought of going for grad work at a Pontifical school in Rome, mostly at the suggestion of my then spiritual director. In the end, I went to a truly orthodox Catholic law school where I found out about a handful of Catholic colleges known for their orthodoxy: U of Dallas, Franciscan University, Christendom, etc. Learning law in that environment was awesomely satisfying. Our professors constantly challenged our religious senses, in a good way. They were, of course, all devoutly Catholic, but knew that the best education we could receive required extreme criticism and deconstruction (if I may use that po-mo term) of ingrained religiosity because such a perspective is either bemoaned or outright unacceptable in public forums. Though, after all, I wish I studied more philosophy! An undergrad degree in it isn't enough!
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I know what you mean at a lesser level, I had a friend of mine who is a priest from Nicaragua. He was there during the Sandinista revolution, and saw the intense persecution of the practicing Catholics and clergy there. also, having gone to barcelona and seeing the state which some of the churches are still in (graffitied, smoke stains from arson) from the civil war shows you what people will do in the name of "rationalism."

after the Motu Proprio of Benedict XVI, our university started weekly masses in the Tridentine rite. University of St. Thomas is the only Basilian University in the US, and the center of the world for Thomistic studies - seriously.

i've been very thankful to go to a parochial high school and university with extremely orthodox, educated, and well-informed educators. i know what the nominal catholic schools are like (the Jesuit universities are the worst - and i went to a Jesuit High School!) - i have plenty of friends who went to them (Georgetown, SLU, Boston College) and their faith really suffered.

If you're ever in Houston, the University of St. Thomas has an amazing high mass on Sunday evenings during the school year, including an all male altar serving lineup, the gloria and sanctus in latin, hyper-orthodox sermons, and enough smoke from a thurible to make you smell like christmas when you leave! we're also located across the street from the beautiful Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral (and there's a non-related Byzantine Fresco Museum <1 mile away)

[Dr. B]

P.S. The only "proof" that exists of anything is contingent upon an agreeance of certain assumptions. We call these facts, colloquially, but there is really no such thing as something 100% provable.

And so we're on the same page: This has been an exercise in philosophy and theory, not practicality. Don't let your inclinations get the best of your ability to understand.