Religion

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312579355' post='518917']
[quote name='thatonethere' timestamp='1312417233' post='518566']
[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312413470' post='518539']
[quote name='judgeposer' timestamp='1311563235' post='517122']
Leave it to me to return to the forum for a threat about religion, albeit one not intended for debate.

I was raised in a practicing Catholic household. My mother is a "cradle" Catholic, while my father was a convert (at 19). I left the Chuch (but not theism) after my confirmation, and didn't return until my 20s. Along the way I explored various faiths but never subscribed to any. I also flirted with agnosticism, in that I experienced a period of uncertainty. In my early 20s I returned to Catholicism, and a short time after that I entered the seminary to study for the priesthood. Eventually I left the seminary when I realized I didn't have a vocation to the priesthood. I continued with school...and work..and Catholicism (to date). I'm a practicing Catholic now, [b]and consider myself rather orthodox (small "o").[/b]
[/quote]

like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

[b]i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...[/b]
[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that please?
[/quote]


[b]it's all just rather cheap isn't it, all of that new age spiritualism? people act like anything can be a belief, and anyone and their mom can start a church (i believe there are over 30,000 "Christian" churches now alone. this pandora's box that has been opened has cheapened the whole religious experience, and give people who practice religion(s) a bad name. the "spiritual but not religious" thing is the biggest scam in history! it's all of these people who either feel they don't have to sacrifice, or that they're too "wise," "smart," "developed" or whatever the hell else they want to call themselves to get out of having to humble themselves by saying that they themselves are subject to a God. instead, they say "i'm spiritual, but not religious" or one of those asshats that "meditates" but avoids praying because it might doc some style points. [/b]

the new age crap is just rather cheap, that's all. i guess it's where the modern world would end up - it's only natural it seems.

[quote name='judgeposer' timestamp='1312430785' post='518619']
[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312413470' post='518539']
like wicked orthodox. mad skills. everything i've read from you has been top notch (not like i'm the pinnacle of theology or anything), but i went to parochial schools my entire life.

from my education, there's no way for me to ignore theism. additionally, there are some pretty good, well thought out, and strong arguments for Catholicism - which, again, must be acknowledged. i used to be a practicing, devout Catholic, i even spoke with priests from my schools and the head of the diocese regarding vocations...then i learned some things. don't get me wrong, i still love God and the church community, but the bureaucracy has tainted many things - does that make not practicing alright - no, but it definitely makes it more difficult. i've dabbled in many religions, but never adhered to any of them. however, i think there is something within the Orthodox community which is profound, real, and is not the product of over-analytical western thought, and the disease of bureaucracy and the malcontent of quite a few bishops who call councils and then destroy a religion. call me anti-vatican ii - i don't care. you can even call me a sedevacantist - i don't care. what i do care about is the sacred that was lost. i am a traditionalist.

my father is Druze. my mother was raised baptist, but theologically speaking, she is a nonentity. i grew up going to catholic schools, and having that rammed down my throat since day one. i don't mean it in a bad way, just not a mentally stimulating way; how can you mentally stimulate a young person of elementary/middle school age? when i got to high school things really got interesting. university studies only complemented what i learned in high school.

after learning about a multitude of other religions, there are many i legitimately respect, but an even greater number i thoroughly enjoy dismantling.

i'm glad that i know what i know so that i don't get sucked into the new age, oprah winfrey style "spiritualism" that so many "spiritual, but not religious" people fall into…i'd rather commit hara-kiri than subject myself to that crap...
[/quote]

Thanks! I hear you totally! Your journey, if I may call it that, has mirrored mine in a lot of ways. But for a few small experiences, I bet they might've been identical. I have a deep sympathy for the Traditionalist (big "T") movement within the Catholic Church. One of my best friends grapples with this routinely - as he attends Tridentine Mass, and rather loathes what has passed for "reform." For my own part, I've found a spiritual home in the ecclesial movments, which arose immediately before and immediately after Vatican II, out of countries in which Catholicism was, at the time, dangerous to practice, even outlawed. Learning from those priests, whose experiences suffering persecution, jailing, intimidation, and even witnessing torture and killings of other practicing Catholics, has strengthened my faith while at the same time reduced it to a basic, livable experience.

About your difficulties with the present Church, it seems as though you're you're own best critic and have seemed to anticipate the common rebuttals - that's the indication of a thinking believer. For my part, if it weren't for the time I spent among seminarians, novices, scholastics, and the like, in a routine of community, prayer, daily sacrifice (you know the rest probably), I don't think I would've arrived where I have, which is as a committed, practicing believer. I suppose I too operate from a similar perspective, [i]not understanding the bureaucracy at times (and not in a conceptual sense, b/c that I - and I'm sure you - understand, but in the sense as a witness to it: What are they thinking!?)[/i], but, as said, if it weren't for my boot-camp experience of seminary, I don't think I could have "resolved" to practice as I do.

[b]Last...about Catholic education - it is in a lamentable state, and as been for generations.[/b] The truth acknowledged by orthodox Catholics about Catholic education is that it is the surest way to loose one's faith! A terrible anecdote, but true nonetheless. I graduated from a Catholic undergrad liberal arts college, which was only nominally Catholic. I thought of going for grad work at a Pontifical school in Rome, mostly at the suggestion of my then spiritual director. In the end, I went to a truly orthodox Catholic law school where I found out about a handful of Catholic colleges known for their orthodoxy: U of Dallas, Franciscan University, Christendom, etc. Learning law in that environment was awesomely satisfying. Our professors constantly challenged our religious senses, in a good way. They were, of course, all devoutly Catholic, but knew that the best education we could receive required extreme criticism and deconstruction (if I may use that po-mo term) of ingrained religiosity because such a perspective is either bemoaned or outright unacceptable in public forums. Though, after all, I wish I studied more philosophy! An undergrad degree in it isn't enough!
[/quote]


I know what you mean at a lesser level, I had a friend of mine who is a priest from Nicaragua. He was there during the Sandinista revolution, and saw the intense persecution of the practicing Catholics and clergy there. also, having gone to barcelona and seeing the state which some of the churches are still in (graffitied, smoke stains from arson) from the civil war shows you what people will do in the name of "rationalism."

after the Motu Proprio of Benedict XVI, our university started weekly masses in the Tridentine rite. University of St. Thomas is the only Basilian University in the US, and the center of the world for Thomistic studies - seriously.

i've been very thankful to go to a parochial high school and university with extremely orthodox, educated, and well-informed educators. i know what the nominal catholic schools are like (the Jesuit universities are the worst - and i went to a Jesuit High School!) - i have plenty of friends who went to them (Georgetown, SLU, Boston College) and their faith really suffered.

If you're ever in Houston, the University of St. Thomas has an amazing high mass on Sunday evenings during the school year, including an all male altar serving lineup, the gloria and sanctus in latin, hyper-orthodox sermons, and enough smoke from a thurible to make you smell like christmas when you leave! we're also located across the street from the beautiful Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral (and there's a non-related Byzantine Fresco Museum <1 mile away)
[/quote]


[font="Georgia"][size="2"][color="#4b0082"]OK, my emotions are "thin" because I've been fasting for almost a week but this post made me cry. Well, said, buddy! I would love to see pics of the Cathedral, I'll bet it's beautiful! [/color][/size][/font]

[Kapten Kanel]

Vendetta voices my opinion better than i can myself, creds to you.

I can honestly say, that in some weak moments when i was young, i have prayed for help, to "god"/similar. Nothing happened. Nothing changed. There is no god. I was dumb.

If there actually is a god or similar entity, with power over peoples lifes, given the chance,[b] i will tear it down and rip it apart[/b], for putting me through the crap ive been through. It hasnt made me stronger in any way, it has made me weak. Some shit haunts me, and will haunt me till the day i draw my last breath. It has, partially, formed me, whether i like it or not.
I anybody wonders what im talking about, i can say that sometimes, kids can be truly "evil". It may not sound as much but it has more or less mentally crippled me.

Now this is my experience, so nobody should feel hit by this. If it is so, i apologize.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312579041' post='518916']
You completely misunderstood me, Vendetta. Read what I wrote again and try not to think of it in the context of religion, especially when I asked you not to attribute any characteristics to G-d. Making the argument about something you're not so passionate about... might make it easier to understand.

Just in case, however, let me be blunt: You are taking just as much for granted by assuming that there is no G-d as a believer takes for granted that there is. It comes down to defining existence, which there is no superior interpretation of.
[/quote]


[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312579479' post='518918']
P.S. The only "proof" that exists of anything is contingent upon an agreeance of certain assumptions. We call these facts, colloquially, but there is really no such thing as something 100% provable.

And so we're on the same page: This has been an exercise in philosophy and theory, not practicality. Don't let your inclinations get the best of your ability to understand.
[/quote]

I confess, it was my 6th fast today and my brain is not functioning properly, and my ability to understand things has been hindered, and at the risk of sounding dumb, I'd say that it would have taken me a while to get your comment even if I wasn't fasting (you do use some big words. ).

I will still try my best to reply from what I've gathered.

You are saying that there is no possible way to prove anything 100% and I agree. But there is a degree to which a thing can be proved?

I can say that I have 4 fingers and a thumb on my right hand and even given the lack of objectivity, it can still be proven to an almost certainty - enough for me to believe it. But there is hardly any way to prove the existence of a 5th finger that only I can see, but not use, which would hinder one's tendency to believe it right?

Btw faith is not belief that comes from the existence of belief. I am yet to find a dictionary that defines it so.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312582257' post='518931']
Vendetta voices my opinion better than i can myself, creds to you.

I can honestly say, that in some weak moments when i was young, i have prayed for help, to "god"/similar. Nothing happened. Nothing changed. There is no god. I was dumb.

If there actually is a god or similar entity, with power over peoples lifes, given the chance,[b] i will tear it down and rip it apart[/b], for putting me through the crap ive been through. It hasnt made me stronger in any way, it has made me weak. Some shit haunts me, and will haunt me till the day i draw my last breath. It has, partially, formed me, whether i like it or not.
I anybody wonders what im talking about, i can say that sometimes, kids can be truly "evil". It may not sound as much but it has more or less mentally crippled me.

Now this is my experience, so nobody should feel hit by this. If it is so, i apologize.
[/quote]

aww..thanks.

You bring up another interesting point btw. Religion on one hand says that God almighty has put everything in his divine plan. He knows every single event that takes place, and it takes place because he desires so, it takes place because everything that happens in this world has already been penned by him. It's a plan no one can change.

On the other hand, it says that "pray to god for this mountain to move, and he will grant your wishes. Ask and you shall receive it".

So my question is, if everything that happens or will happen has already been put into a plan, how will praying change it? How can you expect God to change his divine plan if you, a sick sinful person wishes it?

Forget about moving mountains and creating landscapes at your whim. Sacrifice all selfishness and pray for your fellow beings. Pray that may god eliminates cancer from this world and end the misery of millions of people. Pray that he eliminates hunger, poverty and help the millions dying of starvation and disease in Africa.

Tell me what happens.

[vendetta_revived]

Sorry for triple posting.

@Scrappy: I wrote a reply about brainwashing children yesterday when we were talking about it.

[Dr. B]

The idea behind what we call facts is that we first agree upon a preliminary set of assumptions before we deduce order. Inclination plays a role in what we agree upon.

An argument looks like this (for example):
1: Since sexist practices are wrong, (moral premise);
2: and the use of male-dominated language is a sexist practice or tradition, (premise);
Conclusion: therefore, the use of male-dominated language is wrong. (moral conclusion).

If you accept my first premise there is little chance that you will refute my conclusion and the deductive reasoning holds; but if you scrutinize my first premise then I must defend the establishment that "sexist practices are wrong". That premise in effect become the conclusion of an argument on a more general plain, deduced by way of supporting premises specific to that conclusion. The process continues towards generality as you, my opponent, refute my premises and force me to defend them as conclusions of subsequent arguments until such a level that I can not. Not because of ignorance or a weak argument, but because the conclusion (to be used a premise in the preceding argument) must be founded by way of circular reasoning, wherein the conclusion is evoked as a premise - ie: taken for granted. These generalities exist on deeply esoteric levels as we (humans) tend to agree on most observational inferences of the world around us. However, it remains that somewhere in the course of the retrospective defense of reasoning, the existence of an axiom or initial perception (as defined earlier) must be utilized. The 1 = 1 example was the case for destabilizing the objectivity of mathematics, or quantification, which I believe to be the most specific form of understanding, supported by premises that are conclusions of a critique of the qualitative realm, which are in turn the products of a strictly observational analysis.

The subject of the most general plain is the debate surrounding whether or not we exist in an objective reality or if reality is the machination of my subjective interpretation. Within this paradigm one must establish, as an axiom, whether [b]or not[/b] G-d exists within this reality, subjective or objective, and without consideration for any attribute such as omnipotence or infallibility, to name a few familiar ones. This is dissimilar to "proving" the existence of G-d as you seem familiar with, but not unlike being forced to observe whether heads or tails shows face-up on a fallen coin. That's a weak analogy because it could "get stuck on it's side", for example; but I'm hardpressed to think of a strictly binary parameter to which I can relate. Work with me, I ask.

The idea is that establishing that G-d does NOT exist is as much as an assumption as establishing that He does.

For good measure:
[quote][size="2"][i]faith[/i][/size][size="2"][i]noun[/i] /fāTH/ 
[color="#767676"]faiths, plural[/color][/size]

[list=1][*]Complete trust or confidence in someone or something[list][*]- this restores one's [i]faith[/i] in politicians[/list][/list]Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof<li>A system of religious belief[list][*]- the Christian [i]faith[/i][/list]<li>A strongly held belief or theory[list][*]- the [i]faith[/i] that life will expand until it fills the universe[/quote][/list]Damn this flexibility in language!

[angekfire]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582788' post='518933']
aww..thanks.

You bring up another interesting point btw. Religion on one hand says that God almighty has put everything in his divine plan. He knows every single event that takes place, and it takes place because he desires so, it takes place because everything that happens in this world has already been penned by him. It's a plan no one can change.

On the other hand, it says that "pray to god for this mountain to move, and he will grant your wishes. Ask and you shall receive it".

So my question is, if everything that happens or will happen has already been put into a plan, how will praying change it? How can you expect God to change his divine plan if you, a sick sinful person wishes it?

Forget about moving mountains and creating landscapes at your whim. Sacrifice all selfishness and pray for your fellow beings. Pray that may god eliminates cancer from this world and end the misery of millions of people. Pray that he eliminates hunger, poverty and help the millions dying of starvation and disease in Africa.

Tell me what happens.
[/quote]

I have another question in regards to the concept of "fate" and God having a divine plan for everyone. If God has pre-determined everything, then man cannot possibly have free will, as God has already determined what will become of us, so the freedom to choose isn't really a freedom at all, as whatever we think we choose to do has already been decided by God. So either we truly have free will and nothing is predetermined, or everything is predetermined and we have no free will.

And if we have no free will, then can humans really be held accountable for their sins or transgressions if it was planned far in advance by an omnipotent being? If suicide is a sin, and one commits suicide, was that not part of God's divine plan for everyone? Therefore how can one possibly even attempt to live a sin free life? Why were sins even defined if they were unavoidable and we are essentially forced by God to commit them regardless? Essentially, if God has a plan for everyone, he has intentionally damned a large number of people for no reason other than his own amusement.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582921' post='518934']
Sorry for triple posting.

@Scrappy: I wrote a reply about brainwashing children yesterday when we were talking about it.
[/quote]


Yeah, I know. I ignored it.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1312599854' post='518959']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582788' post='518933']
aww..thanks.

You bring up another interesting point btw. Religion on one hand says that God almighty has put everything in his divine plan. He knows every single event that takes place, and it takes place because he desires so, it takes place because everything that happens in this world has already been penned by him. It's a plan no one can change.

On the other hand, it says that "pray to god for this mountain to move, and he will grant your wishes. Ask and you shall receive it".

So my question is, if everything that happens or will happen has already been put into a plan, how will praying change it? How can you expect God to change his divine plan if you, a sick sinful person wishes it?

Forget about moving mountains and creating landscapes at your whim. Sacrifice all selfishness and pray for your fellow beings. Pray that may god eliminates cancer from this world and end the misery of millions of people. Pray that he eliminates hunger, poverty and help the millions dying of starvation and disease in Africa.

Tell me what happens.
[/quote]

I have another question in regards to the concept of "fate" and God having a divine plan for everyone. If God has pre-determined everything, then man cannot possibly have free will, as God has already determined what will become of us, so the freedom to choose isn't really a freedom at all, as whatever we think we choose to do has already been decided by God. So either we truly have free will and nothing is predetermined, or everything is predetermined and we have no free will.

And if we have no free will, then can humans really be held accountable for their sins or transgressions if it was planned far in advance by an omnipotent being? If suicide is a sin, and one commits suicide, was that not part of God's divine plan for everyone? Therefore how can one possibly even attempt to live a sin free life? Why were sins even defined if they were unavoidable and we are essentially forced by God to commit them regardless? Essentially, if God has a plan for everyone, he has intentionally damned a large number of people for no reason other than his own amusement.
[/quote]

There is no way anyone is going to convince/teach a person who has already decided what their faith is, so answering questions like to a closed mind is just opening yourself up to vulnerabilities and ridicule, which I am not willing to do HERE! I have a very good answer which I believe but it is what I believe, I don't expect anyone else to.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312582257' post='518931']
Vendetta voices my opinion better than i can myself, creds to you.

I can honestly say, that in some weak moments when i was young, i have prayed for help, to "god"/similar. Nothing happened. Nothing changed. There is no god. I was dumb.

If there actually is a god or similar entity, with power over peoples lifes, given the chance,[b] i will tear it down and rip it apart[/b], for putting me through the crap ive been through. It hasnt made me stronger in any way, it has made me weak. Some shit haunts me, and will haunt me till the day i draw my last breath. It has, partially, formed me, whether i like it or not.
I anybody wonders what im talking about, i can say that sometimes, kids can be truly "evil". It may not sound as much but it has more or less mentally crippled me.

Now this is my experience, so nobody should feel hit by this. If it is so, i apologize.
[/quote]

[font="Georgia"][size="2"][color="#4b0082"]There is a saying, "There are no atheists in the foxhole." Someday, when you're a parent, you will understand this concept more. You can't give someone you love everything they ask for, everything they want when you keep the big picture in mind. My daughter hated to eat vegetables, actually she wouldn't eat anything but bread and cheese and always wanted candy. It was really hard, she cried, she begged, I'm sure she was hungry and I felt so mean but FINALLY I was able to get her to eat properly. Eventually, she started loving vegetables and would ask for them. It would have been easier to give in and give her what she wanted but now she is a teenager, has a beautiful body, competes in gymnastics and will probably go to college on scholarship. There are a lot of fatties in her class who eat nothing but chips and pop. AND I am just a human and love my family.

I wonder if you have ever prayed for something hard and didn't get it and realized later it was the best thing for you. I have. Everyone I know has. It is the having faith that is the hard part. OR have you ever asked your parents or teachers for something as a kid and they said "NO" and you realized later it could have harmed you or been bad. BIGGER PICTURE. Life is supposed to be hard. I'm betting you are a stronger and better person from the hardships you've endured. [/color][/size][/font]

[Epoch]

In regards to the "no atheists in foxholes" idea, I dare say that is a complete falsehood.

Oftentimes, war and terror are exactly what robs someone of belief in higher powers. Reading the poetry of soldiers from World War I is one of the most spiritually crushing things a person can ever do. These people saw the terror and madness of war firsthand and it destroys the faith people have in loving deities that watch over man.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312610729' post='518965']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582921' post='518934']
Sorry for triple posting.

@Scrappy: I wrote a reply about brainwashing children yesterday when we were talking about it.
[/quote]


Yeah, I know. I ignored it.
[/quote]

Cool! Since you were the first one to advocate brainwashing your children if you see fit, and saying that you are ALWAYS up for a debate, you ignoring my post which was politely worded shows your inability to respond to it.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312595923' post='518954']
The idea behind what we call facts is that we first agree upon a preliminary set of assumptions before we deduce order. Inclination plays a role in what we agree upon.

An argument looks like this (for example):
1: Since sexist practices are wrong, (moral premise);
2: and the use of male-dominated language is a sexist practice or tradition, (premise);
Conclusion: therefore, the use of male-dominated language is wrong. (moral conclusion).

If you accept my first premise there is little chance that you will refute my conclusion and the deductive reasoning holds; but if you scrutinize my first premise then I must defend the establishment that "sexist practices are wrong". That premise in effect become the conclusion of an argument on a more general plain, deduced by way of supporting premises specific to that conclusion. The process continues towards generality as you, my opponent, refute my premises and force me to defend them as conclusions of subsequent arguments until such a level that I can not. Not because of ignorance or a weak argument, but because the conclusion (to be used a premise in the preceding argument) must be founded by way of circular reasoning, wherein the conclusion is evoked as a premise - ie: taken for granted. These generalities exist on deeply esoteric levels as we (humans) tend to agree on most observational inferences of the world around us. However, it remains that somewhere in the course of the retrospective defense of reasoning, the existence of an axiom or initial perception (as defined earlier) must be utilized. The 1 = 1 example was the case for destabilizing the objectivity of mathematics, or quantification, which I believe to be the most specific form of understanding, supported by premises that are conclusions of a critique of the qualitative realm, which are in turn the products of a strictly observational analysis.

The subject of the most general plain is the debate surrounding whether or not we exist in an objective reality or if reality is the machination of my subjective interpretation. Within this paradigm one must establish, as an axiom, whether [b]or not[/b] G-d exists within this reality, subjective or objective, and without consideration for any attribute such as omnipotence or infallibility, to name a few familiar ones. This is dissimilar to "proving" the existence of G-d as you seem familiar with, but not unlike being forced to observe whether heads or tails shows face-up on a fallen coin. That's a weak analogy because it could "get stuck on it's side", for example; but I'm hardpressed to think of a strictly binary parameter to which I can relate. Work with me, I ask.

The idea is that establishing that G-d does NOT exist is as much as an assumption as establishing that He does.

For good measure:
[quote][size="2"][i]faith[/i][/size][size="2"][i]noun[/i] /fāTH/ 
[color="#767676"]faiths, plural[/color][/size]

[list=1][*]Complete trust or confidence in someone or something[list][*]- this restores one's [i]faith[/i] in politicians[/list][/list][b]Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof<li>A system of religious belief[/b][list][*]- the Christian [i]faith[/i][/list]<li>A strongly held belief or theory[list][*]- the [i]faith[/i] that life will expand until it fills the universe[/quote][/list]Damn this flexibility in language!
[/quote]

If that is the definition you are referring to, there is a problem. In a nutshell, if your belief stems from a spiritual apprehension BUT there is no proof on which you can base it on, it IS believing in the absence of evidence, whatever one's reasons for believing may be, either spiritual apprehension or the voices in their head.

And before I respond to the rest of your (very well worded I must say) comment, you mind telling me if you're a deist or a theist? And since you are asking me to not assign any attributes to this god, I am not sure what I am even looking at? Clearly, there must be some attributes you assign to god?

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1312599854' post='518959']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582788' post='518933']
aww..thanks.

You bring up another interesting point btw. Religion on one hand says that God almighty has put everything in his divine plan. He knows every single event that takes place, and it takes place because he desires so, it takes place because everything that happens in this world has already been penned by him. It's a plan no one can change.

On the other hand, it says that "pray to god for this mountain to move, and he will grant your wishes. Ask and you shall receive it".

So my question is, if everything that happens or will happen has already been put into a plan, how will praying change it? How can you expect God to change his divine plan if you, a sick sinful person wishes it?

Forget about moving mountains and creating landscapes at your whim. Sacrifice all selfishness and pray for your fellow beings. Pray that may god eliminates cancer from this world and end the misery of millions of people. Pray that he eliminates hunger, poverty and help the millions dying of starvation and disease in Africa.

Tell me what happens.
[/quote]

I have another question in regards to the concept of "fate" and God having a divine plan for everyone. If God has pre-determined everything, then man cannot possibly have free will, as God has already determined what will become of us, so the freedom to choose isn't really a freedom at all, as whatever we think we choose to do has already been decided by God. So either we truly have free will and nothing is predetermined, or everything is predetermined and we have no free will.

And if we have no free will, then can humans really be held accountable for their sins or transgressions if it was planned far in advance by an omnipotent being? If suicide is a sin, and one commits suicide, was that not part of God's divine plan for everyone? Therefore how can one possibly even attempt to live a sin free life? Why were sins even defined if they were unavoidable and we are essentially forced by God to commit them regardless? Essentially, if God has a plan for everyone, he has intentionally damned a large number of people for no reason other than his own amusement.
[/quote]

You bring up a very good point my friend. It is an open mind that asks question and a closed mind that has taken their belief without any thinking on their part, or ever challenging it.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312631038' post='518986']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312610729' post='518965']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582921' post='518934']
Sorry for triple posting.

@Scrappy: I wrote a reply about brainwashing children yesterday when we were talking about it.
[/quote]


Yeah, I know. I ignored it.
[/quote]

Cool! Since you were the first one to advocate brainwashing your children if you see fit, and saying that you are ALWAYS up for a debate, you ignoring my post which was politely worded shows your inability to respond to it.
[/quote]

It was not politely worded in my opinion, as long as you keep calling it "brainwashing." Parents teach their children. NOT just about religion, but all over the world parents teach their children about family traditions and holidays and culture. As long as you call teaching "brainwashing" I see no need to respond. This is not polite, it is passive-aggressively attacking.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312642125' post='519000']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312631038' post='518986']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312610729' post='518965']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312582921' post='518934']
Sorry for triple posting.

@Scrappy: I wrote a reply about brainwashing children yesterday when we were talking about it.
[/quote]


Yeah, I know. I ignored it.
[/quote]

Cool! Since you were the first one to advocate brainwashing your children if you see fit, and saying that you are ALWAYS up for a debate, you ignoring my post which was politely worded shows your inability to respond to it.
[/quote]

It was not politely worded in my opinion, as long as you keep calling it "brainwashing." Parents teach their children. NOT just about religion, but all over the world parents teach their children about family traditions and holidays and culture. As long as you call teaching "brainwashing" I see no need to respond. This is not polite, it is passive-aggressively attacking.
[/quote]

Sorry but I am not against teaching. You didn't use the word "teaching". Your words were that it is okay for parents to BRAINWASH their children if they see fit. Your words, not mine.

Plus I didn't passive-aggressively attack anyone. You on the other hand are calling people closed minded in this thread just because they asked questions, and not rudely. I only stated truth in my reply, I don't think anyone apart from you could see that as an attack?

I listed verses on the top of my head that I had a problem children reading, is that an attack?

I am sorry but I have a problem with genital mutilation without consent, is that an attack?

I will tell you what, why don't you highlight what exactly seemed like an attack in my reply because I didn't attack, or call anyone closed minded.

People do teach children a lot of things, family traditions, holidays and culture, but I am hard pressed to find anything other than religion that threatens young children with eternal torment and torture if they don't play along?

[Dr. B]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312631989' post='518987']
If that is the definition you are referring to, there is a problem. In a nutshell, if your belief stems from a spiritual apprehension BUT there is no proof on which you can base it on, it IS believing in the absence of evidence, whatever one's reasons for believing may be, either spiritual apprehension or the voices in their head.

And before I respond to the rest of your (very well worded I must say) comment, you mind telling me if you're a deist or a theist? And since you are asking me to not assign any attributes to this god, I am not sure what I am even looking at? Clearly, there must be some attributes you assign to god?
[/quote]

That definition does work for my cause. I prefer definition 1, however. There is no problem because lack of evidence =/= lack of proof. They are not mutually exclusive, but for the case of proper argumentation there is evidence but no proof. The evidence exists as the premise that "G-d exists", similarly to the contradictory premise in your argument that "G-d does not exist". The problem, [i]which applies to utilizing evidence in both arguments[/i], is that they are both pieces of evidence and things proven by the evidence. This is why I scrutinize the existence of proof (it is flawed), but not of evidence.

I can't say it simpler than: You have faith that G-d does not exist. Why is that so hard to accept?

My religious affiliations and beliefs have absolutely no bearing on what I've been discussing. I won't afford you, as my worthy opponent, the pitfall of establishing a crooked frame of reference for, and the opportunity to establish irrelevant bias within, your understanding. You can surely address the rest of my comments without knowing. It makes no difference, anyhow. The Norse gods were mortals and plenty, the Papua New Guinea shark-god was neither human nor omnipotent. For eons have people ascribed different qualities to their gods, I think you can do the same.

An important part about debate is definition, but I don't want to run the risk of having you admit you believe in something you don't on account of some vague attributes. The discussion was never about that.

[vendetta_revived]

Fair enough, I was not asking your personal beliefs because I wanted to contest them. I was simply saying that the statement that "God exists" doesn't make sense if I am not allowed to assign any attributes to god? What am I looking at? How can you debate something exists/doesn't exist if you don't know what it is?

When I say that God doesn't exist, I am referring to the super natural power that not only created the entire universe, but is an intervening god that cares about what food should I eat, and on which days of the week...what kind of sexual partners I should have and in what positions should I have sex.

A god that is watching over me every single minute of every single day, watching and judging, the god that keeps a surveillance on me 24 hours of the day and doesn't let me have a single private moment that is my own.

A god that has created me sick, and commanded me to cure myself, or he won't be responsible for the consequences.

That is the god that I say does not exist, and as you can see, I talk about the attributes others have assigned to God. So what attributes do you assign to God when you say that he/she does exist?

[vendetta_revived]

And I don't believe that I have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Not believing something doesn't bring faith into the picture in my opinion. You can say that there is no evidence that god doesn't exist either, but you can't provide evidence of something not existing. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming the existence of something.

I could be wrong, and when he does show himself, I shall believe it.

[Dr. B]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312654618' post='519022']
And I don't believe that I have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Not believing something doesn't bring faith into the picture in my opinion. You can say that there is no evidence that god doesn't exist either, but you can't provide evidence of something not existing. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming the existence of something.

I could be wrong, and when he does show himself, I shall believe it.
[/quote]

Once more and finally, it is because the weak construction of the argument that we don't accept the conclusion. The same goes for a world without G-d.

I propose you prove the existence of non-existence. Now the burden is on you, if I play along with your silly rhetoric.

I'm sorry (I'm not really sorry), but as far as all of modern philosophy is concerned, your opinion is not substantiated. Establishing objectivity is at the crux of modern thought, despite how disinclined you are to believe that. It has yet to be done. The closest we have are strong inclinations (see my first few posts).

As for the content of the first post: What if I believe in a god that doesn't do anything? Now, suddenly, I don't have to attribute to anything anything. Consistent interpretations and definitions of G-d are few and far between, as they even vary amongst patrons of major, organized religions. Why bother with confounding details when it doesn't do anything but deracinate and abandon the more basic argument, along with the intent of making it? Nice attempt at a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man"]strawman[/url], though.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312668082' post='519042']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312654618' post='519022']
And I don't believe that I have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Not believing something doesn't bring faith into the picture in my opinion. You can say that there is no evidence that god doesn't exist either, but you can't provide evidence of something not existing. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming the existence of something.

I could be wrong, and when he does show himself, I shall believe it.
[/quote]

Once more and finally, it is because the weak construction of the argument that we don't accept the conclusion. The same goes for a world without G-d.

I propose you prove the existence of non-existence. Now the burden is on you, if I play along with your silly rhetoric.

I'm sorry (I'm not really sorry), but as far as all of modern philosophy is concerned, your opinion is not substantiated. Establishing objectivity is at the crux of modern thought, despite how disinclined you are to believe that. It has yet to be done. The closest we have are strong inclinations (see my first few posts).

As for the content of the first post: What if I believe in a god that doesn't do anything? Now, suddenly, I don't have to attribute to anything anything. Consistent interpretations and definitions of G-d are few and far between, as they even vary amongst patrons of major, organized religions. Why bother with confounding details when it doesn't do anything but deracinate and abandon the more basic argument, along with the intent of making it? Nice attempt at a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man"]strawman[/url], though.
[/quote]

I fine with a God that doesn't do anything and doesn't demand anything, so if it exists, so be it.

It's not a silly rhetoric by the way, as I mentioned earlier. I can claim to have an invisible head right beside my visible head, but the burden of proving it will lie with me and only me. What's silly is me asking you to prove the existence of it's non existence. It cannot be done.

Nice attempt at [url="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unfalsifiable"]un-falsifiability.[/url]

[Scrappydoo]

[/quote]

Sorry but I am not against teaching. You didn't use the word "teaching". Your words were that it is okay for parents to BRAINWASH their children if they see fit. Your words, not mine.

YOU said brain-washing first, I responded to the term. It is offensive.

Plus I didn't passive-aggressively attack anyone. You on the other hand are calling people closed minded in this thread just because they asked questions, and not rudely. I only stated truth in my reply, I don't think anyone apart from you could see that as an attack?

You saying these terms in a hostile manner are absolutely an attack.

I listed verses on the top of my head that I had a problem children reading, is that an attack?

Yes, because I looked up all of those verses and I am wondering where you get your information. First of all, the verse 9:11 or 9:111, neither of them are bad. BUT there is an internet scam going around since 2001 that those verses say something about a an eagle and twin towers....it's all a sick joke. The rest warn about the dangers of hell and the pleasures of heaven. You selected tiny segments about the worst part of hell, which some people need to hear, to make your point. I'll bet I can take a few sentences off of any book on a library shelf and make it appear to be something it's not. If you'd included the verses around it, it would make more sense and you'd see how beautiful it is.
I am sorry but I have a problem with genital mutilation without consent, is that an attack?

I will tell you what, why don't you highlight what exactly seemed like an attack in my reply because I didn't attack, or call anyone closed minded.

People do teach children a lot of things, family traditions, holidays and culture, but I am hard pressed to find anything other than religion that threatens young children with eternal torment and torture if they don't play along?

People who use religion to scare young children are sick and I've said that all along. You have to use age appropriateness. I think most responsible parents of ANY religion does that. I think if you knew more teachers who teach young children, as I am, you would understand what is taught and the good it does. CLOSED MINDED to me means, I can't change your mind so why should I try? It is not an entirely bad thing, your mind is made up, it is closed to new or differing information so wasting my time explaining here, as I've resisted before is a mootless point. It is Ramadan, I am busy. I have no desire to "preach" to someone who has already decided I'm an idiot for what I believe.
[/quote]

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312654618' post='519022']
And I don't believe that I have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Not believing something doesn't bring faith into the picture in my opinion. You can say that there is no evidence that god doesn't exist either, but you can't provide evidence of something not existing. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming the existence of something.

I could be wrong, and when he does show himself, I shall believe it.
[/quote]


There are so many intangible things. Do you believe in outer space beyond what our explorers have seen? Prove to me that it exists. Do you believe in LOVE? Prove to me that it is just not a biological drive to procreate? Faith and love come from the same part of your brain and it is in the NOT holding in your hand and believing anyway that is the beautiful part.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312675390' post='519055']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312654618' post='519022']
And I don't believe that I have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't believe in God because of lack of evidence. Not believing something doesn't bring faith into the picture in my opinion. You can say that there is no evidence that god doesn't exist either, but you can't provide evidence of something not existing. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming the existence of something.

I could be wrong, and when he does show himself, I shall believe it.
[/quote]


There are so many intangible things. Do you believe in outer space beyond what our explorers have seen? Prove to me that it exists. Do you believe in LOVE? Prove to me that it is just not a biological drive to procreate? Faith and love come from the same part of your brain and it is in the NOT holding in your hand and believing anyway that is the beautiful part.
[/quote]

Sorry but if you don't have the time or the energy to take part in this debate, then please don't. I would really like to reply to whatever you have to say but I DON'T have time to talk to anyone who say whatever they have to, ignore my reply at their own peril and accuse me of attacking when I have not, so excuse me.

Btw, most children going to mosques finish their quran before the age of 16. Some age appropriateness to tell them they will go to hell if they don't believe in God.

And I ever referred those verses because of any twin tower crap, but because how they talk about hell, heaven ad the treatment met out to those who disbelieve.

Don't preach, don't reply. I am closed minded. Have a happy ramadan.

[vendetta_revived]

And by the way, age appropriateness?

You're saying that children are only taught happy fun, educating stories from quran, and the complicated stuff later on?

So when they reach adulthood, they are shown pages and they realise "WHOAA!! So I am going to hell if I don't believe in this stuff? Man! didn't know that!!"?

If not, then don't advocate it.

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312611578' post='518969']
[font="Georgia"][size="2"][color="#4b0082"]There is a saying, "There are no atheists in the foxhole." Someday, when you're a parent, you will understand this concept more. You can't give someone you love everything they ask for, everything they want when you keep the big picture in mind. My daughter hated to eat vegetables, actually she wouldn't eat anything but bread and cheese and always wanted candy. It was really hard, she cried, she begged, I'm sure she was hungry and I felt so mean but FINALLY I was able to get her to eat properly. Eventually, she started loving vegetables and would ask for them. It would have been easier to give in and give her what she wanted but now she is a teenager, has a beautiful body, competes in gymnastics and will probably go to college on scholarship. There are a lot of fatties in her class who eat nothing but chips and pop. AND I am just a human and love my family.

I wonder if you have ever prayed for something hard and didn't get it and realized later it was the best thing for you. I have. Everyone I know has. It is the having faith that is the hard part. OR have you ever asked your parents or teachers for something as a kid and they said "NO" and you realized later it could have harmed you or been bad. BIGGER PICTURE. Life is supposed to be hard. I'm betting you are a stronger and better person from the hardships you've endured. [/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]

Life is not "supposed" to be anything.
Atheists are made in the foxhole, if anything.

I have a hard time following your thought patterns here, a child begging for candy to its parents and a child begging to some higher power to stop people giving it shit constantly is not the same thing... You cannot always give a child what it wants, that is common sense. If im getting it right, you thought of me as one of gods children, and did the comparison. I were neither fat nor ugly, i was just an easy target because kindness is a weakness (in those situations), i just ate the crap, never fought back = more shit.
Hard times makes you stronger, a kite can only rise in headwind etc, yes, that is correct in some situations, not all.

I do not intend to have any children, and even if my life had been smooth sailing without any issues, i would have come to the same conclusion. Life is not a blessing, happiness is an illusion (and so is a deep depression). Mankind will never truly be content, its our nature. Its a constant struggle for the next "happiness fix". In my opinion, having children is the ultimate ego thing to do. It gives happiness to the parents (well, most of the time...) and just continues to pointless circle. Our consciousness is a side effect of evolution, nothing more. We cannot see the "truth" (which doesnt exist) as long as we are "inside" life". Our will, drive and biological urges are nothing but remnants of the domino effect that is "life". Now im going to smoke some AF grape.