Religion

[Dr. B]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312668823' post='519043']
I fine with a God that doesn't do anything and doesn't demand anything, so if it exists, so be it.

It's not a silly rhetoric by the way, as I mentioned earlier. I can claim to have an invisible head right beside my visible head, but the burden of proving it will lie with me and only me. What's silly is me asking you to prove the existence of it's non existence. It cannot be done.

Nice attempt at [url="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unfalsifiable"]un-falsifiability.[/url]
[/quote]

The whole idea of existence is unfalsifiability. The matter championed by me is not one that you cannot disprove, and is [i]therefore[/i] proven, as would be the fallacy; only that the premise of either condition is based on some measure of faith. Classifying a paradigm as unfalsifiable is not a fallacy, but deeming the a contrary conclusion correct by default is. Even the wikipedia page you linked uses the word [i]necessarily[/i].

Who knows? You could have an invisible head right beside your visible head. You don't need to prove it any more than I have to disprove it. The burden of proof arrangement is rooted in a common reality, which does not exist when parties disagree.

[Scrappydoo]

[/quote]

Life is not "supposed" to be anything.
Atheists are made in the foxhole, if anything.

I have a hard time following your thought patterns here, a child begging for candy to its parents and a child begging to some higher power to stop people giving it shit constantly is not the same thing... You cannot always give a child what it wants, that is common sense. If im getting it right, you thought of me as one of gods children, and did the comparison. I were neither fat nor ugly, i was just an easy target because kindness is a weakness (in those situations), i just ate the crap, never fought back = more shit.
Hard times makes you stronger, a kite can only rise in headwind etc, yes, that is correct in some situations, not all.

I do not intend to have any children, and even if my life had been smooth sailing without any issues, i would have come to the same conclusion. Life is not a blessing, happiness is an illusion (and so is a deep depression). Mankind will never truly be content, its our nature. Its a constant struggle for the next "happiness fix". In my opinion, having children is the ultimate ego thing to do. It gives happiness to the parents (well, most of the time...) and just continues to pointless circle. Our consciousness is a side effect of evolution, nothing more. We cannot see the "truth" (which doesnt exist) as long as we are "inside" life". Our will, drive and biological urges are nothing but remnants of the domino effect that is "life". Now im going to smoke some AF grape.
[/quote]

[font="Georgia"][size="2"][color="#000080"]More simply put, not everything you want is good for you. I wasn't calling you fat nor ugly. Not knowing what happened in your life, I can't comment but I think if people were really honest, everyone has a really hard life in one way or another. Maybe eventually you can take those bad things that happened and use it to advocate for people who have suffered the same.

I'll tell you a story I don't often tell about myself. When I was about 6, my mother cheated on my father with a neighbor. She was a bored housewife, women in that day were pressured to stay home. I realize it now, and don't mean to disrepect the dead but she is one person who shouldn't have had kids. She just didn't have good coping skills. Anyway, my father found about it and left her, she tried to kill herself and social services removed us from the home. While in foster care, my sisters and I were the only white/blonde girls and we were bullied. A LOT! I had long hair, almost to my waist and one day these older girls held me down and cut all of my hair off. They called me "baldy." I went to class with bloody nose from beatings almost every day. This went on for about a year. Then my mom got us back and we went back to our upper middle class neighborhood and no one ever spoke of it. Imagine, I was six, I didn't understand most of what was going on except that it was a shit life. When my grandma would take us to Church as a teenager, all I would think was "oh bullshit" and doodle on the chorus bills.

When I graduated from college, I became a police officer in the same dirty city where our foster house was and I started an anti-bullying program that is still successful today. IF I hadn't suffered all those years ago, I often wonder how many kids would suffer the same. I am sure I didn't completely erase bullying but I know that it's better. One time I went on a police call where a woman tried to kill herself. I sat with this woman's daughter and told her all the things I wished someone had told me when my mom tried to kill herself. You take the bad things that happen to you and do something positive with it and you erase it.

MY point, if you will, is that EVERYONE on this earth has difficulties that they think they can't handle, but they do. Neither one of us has imploded, did we? I believe that GOD doesn't give a person more than he can handle, that it is a test. Life is just one big freakin' test, and you get your report card when you die. I respect that you don't believe that. I have to. That a star blew up millions of years ago and somehow thru dust and evolution these amazing humans came out it is hard for me to believe. Humans are amazing. My degrees are in criminal psychology and criminalistics (biology). How the human body is put together has got to be by supreme design, not by accident.

I respect your opinion on kids, I wish more people who didn't really want kids would not have them. They are a lot of fun but not for everyone.

Lastly, I have been on three combat tours with the US Army and as a female, I wasn't in direct combat but if you think no one ever shot at me or I wasn't in danger you'd be dead wrong. I don't think I know a single atheist in my company, if anything I see my fellow soldiers recallig miracles, feeling closer to their families and more religious. Just one personal experience but it's mine.
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[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312723568' post='519099']
[font="Georgia"][size="2"][color="#000080"]More simply put, not everything you want is good for you. I wasn't calling you fat nor ugly. Not knowing what happened in your life, I can't comment but I think if people were really honest, everyone has a really hard life in one way or another. Maybe eventually you can take those bad things that happened and use it to advocate for people who have suffered the same.

I'll tell you a story I don't often tell about myself. When I was about 6, my mother cheated on my father with a neighbor. She was a bored housewife, women in that day were pressured to stay home. I realize it now, and don't mean to disrepect the dead but she is one person who shouldn't have had kids. She just didn't have good coping skills. Anyway, my father found about it and left her, she tried to kill herself and social services removed us from the home. While in foster care, my sisters and I were the only white/blonde girls and we were bullied. A LOT! I had long hair, almost to my waist and one day these older girls held me down and cut all of my hair off. They called me "baldy." I went to class with bloody nose from beatings almost every day. This went on for about a year. Then my mom got us back and we went back to our upper middle class neighborhood and no one ever spoke of it. Imagine, I was six, I didn't understand most of what was going on except that it was a shit life. When my grandma would take us to Church as a teenager, all I would think was "oh bullshit" and doodle on the chorus bills.

When I graduated from college, I became a police officer in the same dirty city where our foster house was and I started an anti-bullying program that is still successful today. IF I hadn't suffered all those years ago, I often wonder how many kids would suffer the same. I am sure I didn't completely erase bullying but I know that it's better. One time I went on a police call where a woman tried to kill herself. I sat with this woman's daughter and told her all the things I wished someone had told me when my mom tried to kill herself. You take the bad things that happen to you and do something positive with it and you erase it.

MY point, if you will, is that EVERYONE on this earth has difficulties that they think they can't handle, but they do. Neither one of us has imploded, did we? I believe that GOD doesn't give a person more than he can handle, that it is a test. Life is just one big freakin' test, and you get your report card when you die. I respect that you don't believe that. I have to. That a star blew up millions of years ago and somehow thru dust and evolution these amazing humans came out it is hard for me to believe. Humans are amazing. My degrees are in criminal psychology and criminalistics (biology). How the human body is put together has got to be by supreme design, not by accident.

I respect your opinion on kids, I wish more people who didn't really want kids would not have them. They are a lot of fun but not for everyone.

Lastly, I have been on three combat tours with the US Army and as a female, I wasn't in direct combat but if you think no one ever shot at me or I wasn't in danger you'd be dead wrong. I don't think I know a single atheist in my company, if anything I see my fellow soldiers recallig miracles, feeling closer to their families and more religious. Just one personal experience but it's mine.
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[/quote]

You grew so much in my eyes now, if that is worth anything. We may have our differences but none of us are stupid, far from it. I truly regret what happened earlier.

The human body is amazing, yes, but it is we, ourselves, that see it that way, it doesnt really mean anything. Just because we see ourselves and nature as too complicated and "perfect" to have happened by accident/"luck", doesnt mean it actually is that way. Nature may seem perfect to us, but you have to remember that everything, that didnt "work" an fit into in the "system", is dead.

The human mind is limited. If we could only see the "true" world/universe/our existance from "outside", from an other angle/view... I believe there is some metaphor for it - We are inside the car, we use it and drive it, knowing how the change gear etc, but we dont know how it actually works, we cannot see it and the world we percieve from inside the car, from the "outside". I doesnt matter how much science explains, it will always be "our" system, "our" view of things, and that is a "weakness". Our brains are hardwired and work in a certain way, systemising everything around us, so "we" can understand it. There may be so much that we dont understand and simply cannot percieve.

We will never be able to see the "world" from an objective point of view, we all live the same "world" but we all percieve it in different ways, in reality, we all live in our own "world". Kinda.

Not sure where i wanted to go with this, its quite an abstract topic.

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Kapten Kanel' timestamp='1312744177' post='519134']
[quote name='Scrappydoo' timestamp='1312723568' post='519099']
[font="Georgia"][size="2"][color="#000080"]More simply put, not everything you want is good for you. I wasn't calling you fat nor ugly. Not knowing what happened in your life, I can't comment but I think if people were really honest, everyone has a really hard life in one way or another. Maybe eventually you can take those bad things that happened and use it to advocate for people who have suffered the same.

I'll tell you a story I don't often tell about myself. When I was about 6, my mother cheated on my father with a neighbor. She was a bored housewife, women in that day were pressured to stay home. I realize it now, and don't mean to disrepect the dead but she is one person who shouldn't have had kids. She just didn't have good coping skills. Anyway, my father found about it and left her, she tried to kill herself and social services removed us from the home. While in foster care, my sisters and I were the only white/blonde girls and we were bullied. A LOT! I had long hair, almost to my waist and one day these older girls held me down and cut all of my hair off. They called me "baldy." I went to class with bloody nose from beatings almost every day. This went on for about a year. Then my mom got us back and we went back to our upper middle class neighborhood and no one ever spoke of it. Imagine, I was six, I didn't understand most of what was going on except that it was a shit life. When my grandma would take us to Church as a teenager, all I would think was "oh bullshit" and doodle on the chorus bills.

When I graduated from college, I became a police officer in the same dirty city where our foster house was and I started an anti-bullying program that is still successful today. IF I hadn't suffered all those years ago, I often wonder how many kids would suffer the same. I am sure I didn't completely erase bullying but I know that it's better. One time I went on a police call where a woman tried to kill herself. I sat with this woman's daughter and told her all the things I wished someone had told me when my mom tried to kill herself. You take the bad things that happen to you and do something positive with it and you erase it.

MY point, if you will, is that EVERYONE on this earth has difficulties that they think they can't handle, but they do. Neither one of us has imploded, did we? I believe that GOD doesn't give a person more than he can handle, that it is a test. Life is just one big freakin' test, and you get your report card when you die. I respect that you don't believe that. I have to. That a star blew up millions of years ago and somehow thru dust and evolution these amazing humans came out it is hard for me to believe. Humans are amazing. My degrees are in criminal psychology and criminalistics (biology). How the human body is put together has got to be by supreme design, not by accident.

I respect your opinion on kids, I wish more people who didn't really want kids would not have them. They are a lot of fun but not for everyone.

Lastly, I have been on three combat tours with the US Army and as a female, I wasn't in direct combat but if you think no one ever shot at me or I wasn't in danger you'd be dead wrong. I don't think I know a single atheist in my company, if anything I see my fellow soldiers recallig miracles, feeling closer to their families and more religious. Just one personal experience but it's mine.
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[/quote]

You grew so much in my eyes now, if that is worth anything. We may have our differences but none of us are stupid, far from it. I truly regret what happened earlier.

The human body is amazing, yes, but it is we, ourselves, that see it that way, it doesnt really mean anything. Just because we see ourselves and nature as too complicated and "perfect" to have happened by accident/"luck", doesnt mean it actually is that way. Nature may seem perfect to us, but you have to remember that everything, that didnt "work" an fit into in the "system", is dead.

The human mind is limited. If we could only see the "true" world/universe/our existance from "outside", from an other angle/view... I believe there is some metaphor for it - We are inside the car, we use it and drive it, knowing how the change gear etc, but we dont know how it actually works, we cannot see it and the world we percieve from inside the car, from the "outside". I doesnt matter how much science explains, it will always be "our" system, "our" view of things, and that is a "weakness". Our brains are hardwired and work in a certain way, systemising everything around us, so "we" can understand it. There may be so much that we dont understand and simply cannot percieve.

We will never be able to see the "world" from an objective point of view, we all live the same "world" but we all percieve it in different ways, in reality, we all live in our own "world". Kinda.

Not sure where i wanted to go with this, its quite an abstract topic.
[/quote]

That people are so different is what I love so much! What makes perfect sense to one person just doesn't click with another. It is all very abstract. Even twins are not alike, there are so many variables from genetics to birth order, environment, experiences. This is a miracle to me.

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312697614' post='519084']
[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312668823' post='519043']
I fine with a God that doesn't do anything and doesn't demand anything, so if it exists, so be it.

It's not a silly rhetoric by the way, as I mentioned earlier. I can claim to have an invisible head right beside my visible head, but the burden of proving it will lie with me and only me. What's silly is me asking you to prove the existence of it's non existence. It cannot be done.

Nice attempt at [url="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unfalsifiable"]un-falsifiability.[/url]
[/quote]

The whole idea of existence is unfalsifiability. The matter championed by me is not one that you cannot disprove, and is [i]therefore[/i] proven, as would be the fallacy; only that the premise of either condition is based on some measure of faith. Classifying a paradigm as unfalsifiable is not a fallacy, but deeming the a contrary conclusion correct by default is. Even the wikipedia page you linked uses the word [i]necessarily[/i].

Who knows? You could have an invisible head right beside your visible head. You don't need to prove it any more than I have to disprove it. The burden of proof arrangement is rooted in a common reality, which does not exist when parties disagree.
[/quote]

Right. You don't need to prove that I don't have an invisible head anymore than I need to prove that I do. But my invisible head is not telling me to tell you that you will go to hell if you don't believe in it.

I don't have a board sign on me telling people that I am an atheist, but it just so happens that when people are telling me about all the amazing things they have gone through with relation to God, and them asking me about if I have experienced any such thing, that mere mentioning of the fact that I don't believe in God somehow compels them to tell me that I am working for Satan and will be subjected to eternal torment without providing any evidence of how they have such knowledge, and just referring me to their holy book.

That is the scenario where I am compelled to question how are they in possession of such knowledge, and how they claim to know more than any human is capable of knowing?

You don't need to disprove my invisible head, because if you offend it, or draw offending cartoons of it, then I won't automatically claim the right to burn your house down and issue a death warrant against you.

You will be surprised to know how many times I've been told that I am gonna be going to burn forever by people during perfectly polite conversations not even discussing God or religion. How some people just find it not impolite to say it because of their faith, so normally telling me such wicked things as if they were pointing out that the tea I've made lacks sugar.

I don't feel compelled to go to churches, mosques or temples and laugh at people praying there, but if I am insulted or told that I am immoral and wicked, and deserve to eternal torture, then I can't help it to ask people to show me evidence for their claims other than a holy book.

[Dr. B]

Because I don't know what any of those things you mentioned have to do with anything I have discussed, I'm just going to assume that you want to get one last word in about disliking people who behave like assholes. It seems like to you, religiosity has something to do with it. I guess you can't really ignore the correlation in your case, but you shouldn't transgress against someone by lumping him together with others who only marginally have something in common. That's not what I'm here to discuss, though.

[vendetta_revived]

Well yeah I guess I kind of got off-route there.

I am still trying to understand your view point and your arguments, and today being my 10th fast and the fact that English is not my first language (or even the 2nd lol), isn't helping.

The point is that I am not claiming absolute certainty about there being no God. You may very well know the points I am going to make but let me explain my stance.

If one believes, they can either be a deist or a theist.

Now a deist believes that there was a starting force, a creator if you will that started the creation of this universe, but has really no business in our day to day life or such. He/she/it created it and is not involved in anyway, which doesn't really poses any problem to humanity and even though I am an adeist (I know it's not a word), but I see no problem with it either.

A theist on the other hand believes that a deity/god not only created the entire universe but is very much involved in it's day to day functioning. He is interested in what we should wear/eat/think and rewards the good behaviour, as well as punishes the bad behaviour with eternal torment.

I have a very big problem with that. It's a bane to humanity in more ways than I can explain. So you can very well say that it's not God that I have a problem with but the God of religions.

Now I also understand that you are here to not necessarily discuss religion or god, but to just break down some arguments.

As I mentioned, I am not claiming absolute certainty but talking more in a practical sense. If you hold the concept of absolute certainty, then will you believe the claims of people saying they have seen bigfoot? Leprechauns? people who have been abducted by aliens?

Now I have limited knowledge of philosophy, and I am using the term "limited" loosely here, but in philosophical terms, I do understand that knowledge is a subset of belief, which could be defined as Justified true belief, and all these things are important, but in reality, in day to day life, what we do is analyze whether or not a claim is likely to be true, and I am not claiming absolute certainty here.

Like what will you say if someone asks you if leprechauns exist? - I am not sure? I for one don't believe that leprechauns exist, and in a day to day colloquial conversation, I will say that leprechauns don't exist. Now I am not claiming absolute certainty there. Not saying that there are no leprechauns in any universe at any time. I am talking about things in practical terms, in terms that are useful.

And in the same context that it seems fair to me to say that there is no leprechauns, I say that there is no God, and well, MOST religious folk are not talking about that kind of knowledge when they say that they KNOW.

Regarding your point of objectivity, I'd like to put forward the example of the "former" planet pluto. It takes some 200 odd years for pluto to go around the sun, but we haven't known about the existence of pluto for that long, so how does one prove that it orbits around the sun? that it has ever completed a circle, or it ever will? bringing objectivity into the picture doesn't really do anything because we have the maths to prove it. It's not like science stops working on occasion now is it? We know that this planet is governed by gravity and the law of physics that are consistently reliable.

Again, talking about the god of religions, there is a reason why there is no documentation of miracles, because these things don't happen, and while there might be things that we don't have a good explanation for (yet), but nothing turns physics on it's head.

And I believe in justifying my beliefs to the best degree that they can be. Beliefs inform actions, and I want to know, to the best degree that I can know, I mean we can't know everything, that my beliefs are true or likely to be true. I want to get rid of as many as false beliefs as possible.

When you talk of objectivity Good sir, are you saying that we don't have any reliable method for distinguishing fact from fantasy? Absolute certainty isn't really practical if you think of it. In absolute terms, we can't know ANYTHING for sure, so I guess words like "facts", "truth", "fantasy", "lies" - they are pretty useless eh? All base for knowledge and ALL knowledge itself will go down the tunnel if you talk in objective and absolute terms, don't you think?

Now to address the point of burden of proof, it's the extraordinary claims that need extraordinary evidence.

I am not claiming anything extraordinary. I am only claiming that how the world around me works, IS how it works, and that's pretty basic huh? It's the people who are claiming that there is a super natural entity that have in the past and can suspend the laws of nature and physics that need to provide an evidence of their claims.

Now I know you are not claiming to such a god ( at least in this discussion), and that is where I guess our debate seems a bit redundant since i am talking about the God as portrayed in the holy books of the world.

[judgeposer]

[quote name='antouwan' timestamp='1312579355' post='518917']

I know what you mean at a lesser level, I had a friend of mine who is a priest from Nicaragua. He was there during the Sandinista revolution, and saw the intense persecution of the practicing Catholics and clergy there. also, having gone to barcelona and seeing the state which some of the churches are still in (graffitied, smoke stains from arson) from the civil war shows you what people will do in the name of "rationalism."

after the Motu Proprio of Benedict XVI, our university started weekly masses in the Tridentine rite. University of St. Thomas is the only Basilian University in the US, and the center of the world for Thomistic studies - seriously.

i've been very thankful to go to a parochial high school and university with extremely orthodox, educated, and well-informed educators. i know what the nominal catholic schools are like (the Jesuit universities are the worst - and i went to a Jesuit High School!) - i have plenty of friends who went to them (Georgetown, SLU, Boston College) and their faith really suffered.

If you're ever in Houston, the University of St. Thomas has an amazing high mass on Sunday evenings during the school year, including an all male altar serving lineup, the gloria and sanctus in latin, hyper-orthodox sermons, and enough smoke from a thurible to make you smell like christmas when you leave! we're also located across the street from the beautiful Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral (and there's a non-related Byzantine Fresco Museum <1 mile away)
[/quote]

I thought about going to St. Thomas! But, the center of the world for Thomism! I know a few [url="http://www.pusc.it/eng/"]Santa Croce[/url] grads that would take issue with that claim, most definitely. Hahah. Friends of mine didn't go to Santa Croce because they knew they couldn't write anything [i]not[/i] incorporating Thomism.

[FunkyBuddha]

These posts makes me incalculably happy I signed up for this forum as opposed to others. (Most forums are full of ignorant hooligans as opposed to the dynamic individuals such as we have here.)

On topic: I was raised without religion until my childhood best friend's mom started preaching to me one day when I was about twelve. I went home and talked to my dad. My initial question was somewhat along the lines of "Hey dad who's this god character?" From there both my parents gave me a basic education of the major religions and said that as I grew older I would relate to one, some or none and that they'd support any of my choices. At a later point I did joke about satanism and my dad shrugged and said "If you think it's right for you."

When I told my friend's mom that I wasn't religious she flipped and said I was going to hell. Since then when devoutly religious people find out about my non-religious status they immediately prepare themselves for a flurry of scientific quotes about the non-existence of their specific deity and soon find out that I don't really care what they believe in as long as we come to a mutual agreement not to overly debate the subject or push one's beliefs onto the other. (My friend's mother accepts me and I'm practically their second son.)

I've also been questioned about my morals seeing as religion is great at setting guidelines. Some seem to have a hard time believing that I have my self-imposed principles and guidelines on how to be a better person and live my life.

In a nutshell: I live empirically. So keep yerr god outta mah air! *shakes fist angrily*...err...You do your thing and I'll do mine. =D


Happy smoking all!

[judgeposer]

I've interpolated a response.

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312932271' post='519391']
Well yeah I guess I kind of got off-route there.

I am still trying to understand your view point and your arguments, and today being my 10th fast and the fact that English is not my first language (or even the 2nd lol), isn't helping.

The point is that I am not claiming absolute certainty about there being no God. You may very well know the points I am going to make but let me explain my stance.

If one believes, they can either be a deist or a theist.

Now a deist believes that there was a starting force, a creator if you will that started the creation of this universe, but has really no business in our day to day life or such. He/she/it created it and is not involved in anyway, which doesn't really poses any problem to humanity and even though I am an adeist (I know it's not a word), but I see no problem with it either.

A theist on the other hand believes that a deity/god not only created the entire universe but is very much involved in it's day to day functioning. He is interested in what we should wear/eat/think and rewards the good behaviour, as well as punishes the bad behaviour with eternal torment.

I have a very big problem with that. It's a bane to humanity in more ways than I can explain. So you can very well say that it's not God that I have a problem with but the God of religions.

Now I also understand that you are here to not necessarily discuss religion or god, but to just break down some arguments.
[/quote]

In a larger accounting, you would have to clarify what you mean by the word "involved," because the "God of religions" is hardly a unified or consistent concept. As a Catholic, for one, we do not believe in a God that involves Himself in any material way, as in interfering with the free will of humans. That belief is not, however, shared among all Christians, some of whom believe in an interfering God. While Christians seem to agree on the point of experiencing eternal rewards or punishments, how God metes that out, for Christians, is particular to each Christan religion/denomination, though some happen to agree with others.

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312932271' post='519391']
As I mentioned, I am not claiming absolute certainty but talking more in a practical sense. If you hold the concept of absolute certainty, then will you believe the claims of people saying they have seen bigfoot? Leprechauns? people who have been abducted by aliens?

Now I have limited knowledge of philosophy, and I am using the term "limited" loosely here, but in philosophical terms, I do understand that knowledge is a subset of belief, which could be defined as Justified true belief, and all these things are important, but in reality, in day to day life, what we do is analyze whether or not a claim is likely to be true, and I am not claiming absolute certainty here.

Like what will you say if someone asks you if leprechauns exist? - I am not sure? I for one don't believe that leprechauns exist, and in a day to day colloquial conversation, I will say that leprechauns don't exist. Now I am not claiming absolute certainty there. Not saying that there are no leprechauns in any universe at any time. I am talking about things in practical terms, in terms that are useful.

And in the same context that it seems fair to me to say that there is no leprechauns, I say that there is no God, and well, MOST religious folk are not talking about that kind of knowledge when they say that they KNOW.
[/quote]

Somewhat on point, I posted in [url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/31147-the-oldest-debate-gets-older/"]a previous thread[/url] the [url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/31147-the-oldest-debate-gets-older/page__view__findpost__p__378124"]following[/url] (with [b]emphasis[/b] added):
[quote]I would offer that theists do have proof, that we do have "evidence" for our belief in God. For some theists, the various deductive proofs for God's existence convince them, for others, a constellation of observances, experiences and intuition assemble to build an inductive vindication for God's existence. Of course, that same evidence for others doesn't amount to anything - they are not similarly convinced. To a great extent, that's a natural playing out of the human experience: perception and acceptance.

In this regard, some theists, like St. Thomas Aquinas, and those who argue against belief in God's existence by means of an evidentialist objection (what you seem to be arguing - that belief in God is rationally acceptable only if there is evidence for it) [u]agree[/u]. [b]So, we have both certain atheists and certain theists agreeing that we do not have to prove God's non-existence in order to justify atheism, atheism is obligatory in the absence of any evidence for God's existence. Where the two sides disagree is on what counts as satisfactory evidence that proves God's existence.[/b] Furthermore, one strand of theists, of the sort that follows St. Thomas Aquinas's argument, says that we do have evidence, which is supplied to us by our rationality (i.e. that we can rationally deduce God's existence) and observation (i.e. that we can witness a certain complexity that has had to have been designed - their further assumption is that the designer is God).

"Faith" for this particular type of theist doesn't mean accepting God's existence without evidence, it means accepting the claims of God (e.g. religious claims made by, say, a church, in the form of, say, doctrine) - again, it's not faith in God's existence. This type of theists believes in God because they accept as evidence those certain things that point to, for them, God's existence. The concept of "faith" is something different. I hope you see the similarity and distinction I have attempted to point out. [b]The debate then does not center on having faith in things unseen (and therefore believing in God), it centers on what counts as evidence for believing in God. In this way, this particular group of theists and this particular group of atheists (evidentialist objectors) have the same arguments - they both believe that evidence for God's existence is required for proper belief - but their disagreement centers on what that evidence is. [/b][/quote]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312932271' post='519391']
Regarding your point of objectivity, I'd like to put forward the example of the "former" planet pluto. It takes some 200 odd years for pluto to go around the sun, but we haven't known about the existence of pluto for that long, so how does one prove that it orbits around the sun? that it has ever completed a circle, or it ever will? bringing objectivity into the picture doesn't really do anything because we have the maths to prove it. It's not like science stops working on occasion now is it? We know that this planet is governed by gravity and the law of physics that are consistently reliable.

Again, talking about the god of religions, there is a reason why there is no documentation of miracles, because these things don't happen, and while there might be things that we don't have a good explanation for (yet), but nothing turns physics on it's head.

And I believe in justifying my beliefs to the best degree that they can be. Beliefs inform actions, and I want to know, to the best degree that I can know, I mean we can't know everything, that my beliefs are true or likely to be true. I want to get rid of as many as false beliefs as possible.

When you talk of objectivity Good sir, are you saying that we don't have any reliable method for distinguishing fact from fantasy? Absolute certainty isn't really practical if you think of it. In absolute terms, we can't know ANYTHING for sure, so I guess words like "facts", "truth", "fantasy", "lies" - they are pretty useless eh? All base for knowledge and ALL knowledge itself will go down the tunnel if you talk in objective and absolute terms, don't you think?
[/quote]

[quote name='vendetta_revived' timestamp='1312932271' post='519391']
Now to address the point of burden of proof, it's the extraordinary claims that need extraordinary evidence.

I am not claiming anything extraordinary. I am only claiming that how the world around me works, IS how it works, and that's pretty basic huh? It's the people who are claiming that there is a super natural entity that have in the past and can suspend the laws of nature and physics that need to provide an evidence of their claims.

Now I know you are not claiming to such a god ( at least in this discussion), and that is where I guess our debate seems a bit redundant since i am talking about the God as portrayed in the holy books of the world.
[/quote]

I can't deny the binding nature of physics, but I can't also deny that there have been paradigm shifts in any community of knowledge, including the sciences. That isn't to say that the we rest on entirely unstable ground, but it is to say that the ground is less stable than any of us seem to appreciate.

[Edited to add links to the previous thread/post.] Edited August 12, 2011 by judgeposer

[Click]

Just want to point out that Bill Gates is not religious as suggested on page 2.

As for the topic:
My mother was raised hardcore Catholic by my grandparents. She had to go to Catholic school until 9th grade. My grandmother remains highly religious. She attends church multiple times a week and works with community outreach programs. I'm happy she has something to occupy her time and the acceptance of a faith that gives her comfort and solace.

Myself, on the other hand, was never overly religious. I was raised Catholic and did my 1st communion. I attended a religious school class every Wednesday after public school until 5th grade, but never did the whole go to Mass every Sunday morning thing. At that point my mother gave me the choice to keep going to the Catholic after school class or to stop. Obviously as a 10 year old being more interested in skateboarding and video games I chose to stop going. Since then I have only been in a church a handful of times for funerals and when friends have asked me to come with them.

Around 10th or 11th grade I became strictly atheist, yet remain open to the idea of religion for other as I think it provides a service beyond what any other institution can. I don't know where my grandmother would be without her church. For that reason, even though I am not religious whatsoever and am completely comfortable with non believing any God whatsoever, I respect and understand the need for religion. It simply is not for me.

[Dr. B]

Thanks, Click. It's funny how often people ignore the sheer peace of mind that some people derive from religion. I don't mean that in a naive sense, only in a "why should you worry about what makes me happy?" sense.

[Skeletor]

Hello! I know the last post is from August and everything but still I would like to ask something. Is it a big deal in US if you are an atheist? Is it uncommon? It's a very normal thing here in Finland and nobody will even notice if you have a t-shirt which say: I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD! I think everyone can believe what they want to believe and I appreciate every religion on it's own. Peace out!

[Chreees]

I don't think it's a big deal. But then again, I think it depends on where you live. I'm from a small town in West TN, and if someone there were to wear such a shirt, there'd be a huge uproar. Bigger cities, no one's gonna care. Well, I mean, the crazies live in big cities too, but there's less chance of you getting shit for it.

[Skeletor]

All right! Thanks for your answer. Maybe that's the case in every western country. In a small community it's a much bigger deal than in a big city.

[mustang67n]

[quote name='Skeletor' timestamp='1326712235' post='535720']
All right! Thanks for your answer. Maybe that's the case in every western country. In a small community it's a much bigger deal than in a big city.
[/quote]

I live in Las Vegas, and most people I've met don't believe in god. but.. the ones who do.. are insane bible thumping types. just out of control.

[Skeletor]

Damn! That's always sad when people are insane with their own opinions and are trying to change the ones who disagree. It's cool when people are discussing about religion and personal opinions but that's just not cool if someone can't accept the fact that everyone's different. I live in Lempäälä (yeah, try to spell that right...) and most people I know are Lutherans but doesn't go to church or anything...Would be cool to visit Vegas some day!

[mustang67n]

[quote name='Skeletor' timestamp='1326714297' post='535722']
Damn! That's always sad when people are insane with their own opinions and are trying to change the ones who disagree. It's cool when people are discussing about religion and personal opinions but that's just not cool if someone can't accept the fact that everyone's different. I live in Lempäälä (yeah, try to spell that right...) and most people I know are Lutherans but doesn't go to church or anything...Would be cool to visit Vegas some day!
[/quote]

right on. yeah, vegas is pretty fun. But everyone who lives here tends to be extremists in some way.. its like.. a prerequisite to live here lol

[Cp44]

I respect whoever respects me regardless what they believe in. I'm a Christian, more than half of my friends are muslim, few hindus, atheists and agnostics. I will tell them about my beliefs if they ask but I try not to go into debates because debates ends with a loser and winner. If you want to preach about your beliefs you cant have a loser and a winner but instead an understanding. Thats all you can do, its not something you can force upon someone and I totally disagree with fanatic religious people.

[Skeletor]

[quote name='Cp44' timestamp='1326767380' post='535792']
I respect whoever respects me regardless what they believe in. I'm a Christian, more than half of my friends are muslim, few hindus, atheists and agnostics. I will tell them about my beliefs if they ask but I try not to go into debates because debates ends with a loser and winner. If you want to preach about your beliefs you cant have a loser and a winner but instead an understanding. Thats all you can do, its not something you can force upon someone and I totally disagree with fanatic religious people.
[/quote]

Wisely said my man!

[agunn1231]

i have strange way of looking at life and strange beliefs, that being said, i like to discuss religion with people...not argue about it but actually discuss it. in hopes that i can expand my knowledge about peoples religions.

[Skeletor]

Tell us about your strange way of looking at life? Would be interesting to know

[jorlyfish]

I agree with Chris - it depends on where you are. Saying you're an atheist in a big city (particularly in the northeast and west coast IMO) is going to be perceived differently than it would be in a small town, particularly in the Bible Belt.

Alex -- I too have found myself more open to talking about religion. My boyfriend is what could be called culturally Catholic, and I am an atheist. We actually have many of the same beliefs and wants in life, he just has different words to describe the insanely complex theories and ideas that we humans have loved to think about for so long.
He and another friend of mine, also Catholic, were discussing it one day, and I thought it was a really beautiful metaphor, so I will share it here.

God is like a cube. Humans are two-dimensional. So whatever contact we come into with God, it will only ever be a dot, line, or maybe even a portion of the face. But we'll never know the full cube, it's something to strive for, perfection (cubes being a pretty perfect shape). It's not perceivable to us because we lack that other dimension, but its something to strive for.

[Zildjian]

[quote name='Cp44' timestamp='1326767380' post='535792']
I respect whoever respects me regardless what they believe in. I'm a Christian, more than half of my friends are muslim, few hindus, atheists and agnostics. I will tell them about my beliefs if they ask but I try not to go into debates because debates ends with a loser and winner. If you want to preach about your beliefs you cant have a loser and a winner but instead an understanding. Thats all you can do, its not something you can force upon someone and I totally disagree with fanatic religious people.
[/quote]

ahem.....I believe you forgot 1 Jew.....

[Zildjian]

I guess I should follow up with my thoughts on the subject too. For starters I am not 100% sure what I believe. I am Jewish culturally. Right now I am not a huge fan of organized religion because, in my personal experience, it leads to more negative than positive things. What I do believe is that every religion, at it's most basic foundation, is to ensure that people are good to themselves, and good to each other. Whether through pushing morals or playing the fear and guilt card, the end result is for people to stay safe and be decent human beings. Unfortunately that gets distorted and negative things happen, but that's neither here nor there. I believe that if you are a good person, no matter if you believe in God or not, good things will happen in this life and the next. So I personally don't focus on the higher power aspects of Judaism, I just try to live my life the best I can. When push comes to shove, when I am in the hypothetical waiting room for Eternal Decisions, I do not think I will end up in a negative place if I continue this path.