How Would You Answer

[Stuie]

Okay I am on another non hookah forum and someone, a premed student, decided to confront me on my statements about hookah. Mostly I have pointed out that the 200 cigarette comparison is BS and it's vapor not burning tobacco. Nothing real in depth.

[quote][font="arial"][size="2"]You claim you're an experienced smoker yet I don't really see any proof to what you're saying. On the other hand, I've done scientific research on shisha and have actually found that many of the claims you have made are false or at least under scrutiny - whereas your answers are more yellow journalism at best.[/size][/font][/quote]

How would you respond? or would you not respond at all?

[Zildjian]

Well first I would ask him to back up his "scientific research" and provide hard data and a link to the scientific journal to where it is published.

Then, I would link him to the hookah studies that have been provided here. People who THINK they know a lot about anything wont be able to back up their claims, people who DO know a lot about anything WILL give supporting evidence from reputable sources (peer reviewed journals).

Let me dig up the name of that researcher....

EDIT: here ya go [url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/42954-i-wish-to-read-some-studies/"]http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/42954-i-wish-to-read-some-studies/[/url]

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1311688984' post='517269']
Okay I am on another non hookah forum and someone, a premed student, decided to confront me on my statements about hookah. Mostly I have pointed out that the 200 cigarette comparison is BS and it's vapor not burning tobacco. Nothing real in depth.

[quote][font="arial"][size="2"]You claim you're an experienced smoker yet [b]I don't really see any proof [/b]to what you're saying. On the other hand, [b]I've done scientific research[/b] on shisha and have actually found that many of the claims you have made are false or at least under scrutiny - whereas your answers are more yellow journalism at best.[/size][/font][/quote]

How would you respond? or would you not respond at all?
[/quote]

ahahhahahaha
*Point out your lack of "proof", then claim something yourself and not give any source?* WHAT
Theres only one way to respond to that crap, point out the above, and add some (alot) sarcasm.

[Kapten Kanel]

That the smoke is vaporized glycering and not burning tobacco crap (and therefor has nothing in common) is self explanatory if you have any understanding of simple physics and how shisha is supposed to be smoked, he/she cannot argue with that.
You could always show your hookah stash/collection to give some weight to your claim of being an experienced hookah smoker.

[Plex]

It seems they have already developed a decent-sized ego in their med schooling... they did *re*search... probably by looking at various documents on some special "credible" database system they have access to. Did they actually do anything beyond looking at a computer screen? What evidence do they have? Do they automatically trust whatever sources they have access to at their school just because they are deemed 'credible'? Have they ever smoked a cigarette and hookah to have first hand experience comparing the two? I would bet the WHO documents, etc are among the 'scientific research' they are referring to.

I find it funny that they say you don't have 'proof... They brush aside your extensive experience with hookah since your name isn't on their list of 'credible sources'... I would bet a chest x-ray showing clean, healthy lungs wouldn't even affect their position... because that would mean they would need to disagree with their 'credible source' *gods* . They would probably just make excuses to maintain their status quo.

I personally wouldn't waste my energy arguing with people that are not into finding the truth and make attacks like 'yellow journalism.' If they are open at all to the truth, then it would have to start with them being able to question their sources... and then doing their own honest experiments... like smoking hookah for 1 hr (set up by you to ensure it is done properly), then smoking 200 cigarettes over the course of 1 hr to compare. Edited July 26, 2011 by Plex

[Chreees]

It's been in my experience, especially when it comes to politics, most people are going to already have a predetermined mindset about some things, and it is very hard or maybe even impossible to sway them to think differently.

Show the studies that have been brought up here a good many times and upload a pic of your hookahs and tobacco stash. This should shut him down.

[Epoch]

I never thought Stuie would have an issue proving his reputation as an experienced hookah smoker.

[Stuie]

Just some kid wanting to pick a fight. Like I have ever said it was healthy....crazy kid.

[Stuie]

Went with this.

[quote]I would love to see your research. What was your thesis, What brands of tobacco did you use, What instrumentation and bookmarks did you use to measure your testing, and your results. Or did you mean Google research?

You can believe what you want, and I am sure I will not sway your mind. But any HS Freshman Biology student wouldn't get a passing grade on the report the Mayo Clinic put out.

Simple Facts: Cigarettes burns and destroys tobacco, shisha cooks the tobacco not destroys it and burns off glycerin, honey, molasses. I have all my tobacco still left after a session. While a cigarette tobacco is ash on the floor.

I am not saying smoking isn't healthy, I am saying it's not as harmful as cigarettes. As far as Proof, I am only interesting in dispelling the falsehoods.

For More Factual Reports, here
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/5/1/19
http://yurukov.net/blog/2008/10/01/koe_e_po_vredno_nargileto_ili_cigarite/
http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/40159-im-getting-really-tired/
The Forum Post will supply you with research I am sure you have never seen.

And some anecdotal evidence. I am 30, Had a complete physical for life insurance 6 months ago. Despite disclosing that I smoke hookah 2+ Hours every day, my lungs are as healthy as they should be, nicotine levels were on par with eating dinner the night before in a smoking section of a restaurant. I just need to drop a few pounds and that's it. I have the normal non smoking rate for my life insurance.
[/quote]

[Scrappydoo]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1311701636' post='517291']
Went with this.

[quote]I would love to see your research. What was your thesis, What brands of tobacco did you use, What instrumentation and bookmarks did you use to measure your testing, and your results. Or did you mean Google research?

You can believe what you want, and I am sure I will not sway your mind. But any HS Freshman Biology student wouldn't get a passing grade on the report the Mayo Clinic put out.

Simple Facts: Cigarettes burns and destroys tobacco, shisha cooks the tobacco not destroys it and burns off glycerin, honey, molasses. I have all my tobacco still left after a session. While a cigarette tobacco is ash on the floor.

I am not saying smoking isn't healthy, I am saying it's not as harmful as cigarettes. As far as Proof, I am only interesting in dispelling the falsehoods.

For More Factual Reports, here
[url="http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/5/1/19"]http://www.harmreduc.../content/5/1/19[/url]
[url="http://yurukov.net/blog/2008/10/01/koe_e_po_vredno_nargileto_ili_cigarite/"]http://yurukov.net/b...o_ili_cigarite/[/url]
[url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/40159-im-getting-really-tired/"]http://www.hookahfor...g-really-tired/[/url]
The Forum Post will supply you with research I am sure you have never seen.

And some anecdotal evidence. I am 30, Had a complete physical for life insurance 6 months ago. Despite disclosing that I smoke hookah 2+ Hours every day, my lungs are as healthy as they should be, nicotine levels were on par with eating dinner the night before in a smoking section of a restaurant. I just need to drop a few pounds and that's it. I have the normal non smoking rate for my life insurance.
[/quote]
[/quote]

GOOD ANSWER! I have a physical once a year and never tell the doctor I smoke and even in chest films, they can't tell.

[ezxen]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1311701636' post='517291']
Went with this.

[quote]I would love to see your research. What was your thesis, What brands of tobacco did you use, What instrumentation and bookmarks did you use to measure your testing, and your results. Or did you mean Google research?

You can believe what you want, and I am sure I will not sway your mind. But any HS Freshman Biology student wouldn't get a passing grade on the report the Mayo Clinic put out.

Simple Facts: Cigarettes burns and destroys tobacco, shisha cooks the tobacco not destroys it and burns off glycerin, honey, molasses. I have all my tobacco still left after a session. While a cigarette tobacco is ash on the floor.

I am not saying smoking isn't healthy, I am saying it's not as harmful as cigarettes. As far as Proof, I am only interesting in dispelling the falsehoods.

For More Factual Reports, here
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/5/1/19
http://yurukov.net/blog/2008/10/01/koe_e_po_vredno_nargileto_ili_cigarite/
http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/40159-im-getting-really-tired/
The Forum Post will supply you with research I am sure you have never seen.

And some anecdotal evidence. I am 30, Had a complete physical for life insurance 6 months ago. Despite disclosing that I smoke hookah 2+ Hours every day, my lungs are as healthy as they should be, nicotine levels were on par with eating dinner the night before in a smoking section of a restaurant. I just need to drop a few pounds and that's it. I have the normal non smoking rate for my life insurance.
[/quote]
[/quote]
This its informative to black up your claims but at the end you tell him to put that in your bowl and smoke it in a ever so nice way

[Plex]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1311701636' post='517291']
Went with this.

[quote]I would love to see your research. What was your thesis, What brands of tobacco did you use, What instrumentation and bookmarks did you use to measure your testing, and your results. Or did you mean Google research?

You can believe what you want, and I am sure I will not sway your mind. But any HS Freshman Biology student wouldn't get a passing grade on the report the Mayo Clinic put out.

Simple Facts: Cigarettes burns and destroys tobacco, shisha cooks the tobacco not destroys it and burns off glycerin, honey, molasses. I have all my tobacco still left after a session. While a cigarette tobacco is ash on the floor.

I am not saying smoking isn't healthy, I am saying it's not as harmful as cigarettes. As far as Proof, I am only interesting in dispelling the falsehoods.

For More Factual Reports, here
[url="http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/5/1/19"]http://www.harmreduc.../content/5/1/19[/url]
[url="http://yurukov.net/blog/2008/10/01/koe_e_po_vredno_nargileto_ili_cigarite/"]http://yurukov.net/b...o_ili_cigarite/[/url]
[url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/40159-im-getting-really-tired/"]http://www.hookahfor...g-really-tired/[/url]
The Forum Post will supply you with research I am sure you have never seen.

And some anecdotal evidence. I am 30, Had a complete physical for life insurance 6 months ago. Despite disclosing that I smoke hookah 2+ Hours every day, my lungs are as healthy as they should be, nicotine levels were on par with eating dinner the night before in a smoking section of a restaurant. I just need to drop a few pounds and that's it. I have the normal non smoking rate for my life insurance.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Very nicely put!

[Arcane]

I would've rather smash the kid in the face......and then insult him and his mother.

Haha...just kidding. I wouldn't insult his mother.

[Santino]

[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1311707957' post='517310']
I would've rather smash the kid in the face......and then insult him and his mother.

Haha...just kidding. I wouldn't insult his mother.
[/quote]

^^^lololol

Very well put Stuie. Very eloquently worded with a slight "up yours" undertone. I dig it.

[vendetta_revived]

Oh man you had to reply eh? Great...now I am gonna be waiting for his reply failing to address or correctly answer anything in your questions and still act as if he knows "stuff about stuff", and in the end, be a total fail!

Should have sent him a picture of your awesome collection as well btw...one picture would have cleared all his doubts about you being an experienced smoker.

[Stuie]

[img]http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm126/tunes4x/DSC_0232.jpg[/img]

Yeah my last collection photo would have shut his mouth.

[Epoch]

Off topic: Why haven't you filled the "Show off your stuff" section with your pipes yet? Edited July 27, 2011 by Epoch

[Click]

[quote name='Epoch' timestamp='1311742040' post='517383']
Off topic: Why haven't you filled the "Show off your stuff" section with your pipes yet?
[/quote]

RIGHT? Damn that is an impressive collection Stuie.

[Kapten Kanel]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1311735047' post='517378']
[img]http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm126/tunes4x/DSC_0232.jpg[/img]

Yeah my last collection photo would have shut his mouth.
[/quote]

THAT, is what i call a collection!

[Chreees]

Great answer, Stuie. Now I'm anticipating his response, if he responds at all.

[Stuie]

So far no response. Figured as much.

[Stuie]

So I got a Response:

[quote]My research is mainly focussing on gathering data on popularity and attitudes towards shisha smoking. Since you ask questions posing as a researcher I will treat you as one in my reply. Should I perform any research on the direct harms of shisha, variables such as tobacco brand, coal type and inhalation habits would need to be standardised as you and I are aware the current research fails to detail this.

I don't rely on the Mayo Clinic for information. I go to primary sources of research by searching PubMed articles. I have enough experience to interpret the methodologies myself.

I completely understand that a cigarette burns and shisha heats tobacco, thereby having different health effects. However that does not mean nicotine and other harmful chemicals are not inhaled - after all, the water only filters 5% of the smoke.

Shisha tobacco packaging is not regulated and manufacturers get away with providing a false sense of security to smokers by including 0.05% nicotine, natural flavours and 0% tar. Isn't this misleading?

I agree that puff for puff, cigarettes are more unhealthy. However, shisha and cigarettes should not be compared so simply because shisha has the right to be considered a seperate entity - i.e. the ease with which illegal drugs can be mixed with tobacco + reduced harm perception + carbon monoxide poisoning never seen in cigarette smoking = a right for shisha to not be compared to cigarettes.

Firstly, I am an advocate of factual information. Quite clearly governments exaggerate the risks of shisha by comparing it to 100-200 cigarettes. We both know this is not the case, and the figure is closer to 10 cigarettes.

I have most certainly seen and read your 'Factual Reports' before. Just as the WHO report was scrutinised, so would Sajid and Chaouchi's work. In fact, you're an advocate for 'facts' and 'real research', but your first link was actually not that strong a piece of evidece. Sajid used p values <0.9 to 'prove' that shisha wasn't harmful. You claim to be into research, so I shall tell you that many researchers actually see a p value of <0.9 to actually be a statistical significant association (i.e. in Sajid's work, there IS proof that shisha is harmful). If you don't understand what p values mean in reading these papers then I suggest you do not dig a hole by pretending you know what papers mean.

But this doesn't mean shisha is definitely harmful, the approach I take is one of caution. Sajid's work (used by you and others to 'debunk' myths) actually keeps the question unanswered, and more work is needed. It is not proof of anything as the p value was quite low, but did you know this? So all I say is that the health effects still need more work, and nobody can claim it's less harmful than cigarettes because actually, there is no proof - not even from Chauouchi's other studies.

[font=arial][size=2]I need an English version of Yurukov's work, otherwise I cannot interpret anything. While it may convince you, it doesn't convince me until more scrutiny is conducted. As for hookah forum's post, I actually do have a response to that, point by point. Shall I log on there and provide it? I wonder if there is any point, because just like the anti-shisha exaggerators will not listen to your seemingly sound mind, the pro-shisha exaggerators will not listen to mine.

And now to dissect your medical. I'm glad you're in good health, but again I would like to know about your health insurance's methodology. How did they measure lung function, how did they measure nicotine levels, and what else did they check for? What brand do you smoke, and where (is it well ventilated?). You may be healthy but until these are answered, I cannot comment. Scientific proof is strength in numbers, and your number is 1. So it's not particularly useful for this conversation.

One word of advice: I am a researcher, a scientist, a medical student and doctor-to-be. If you want to 'come up to our level' and start reading scientific papers and interpreting them yourself without any training, then you will have to be prepared to answer the questions of those who have experience in this field. Yes, your 3 links will convince anti-shisha people with no scientific background, but to me it's not convincing at all. Maybe I should come onto hookah forum and start debating with individuals like you..? Kind regards [/size][/font][/quote]

[rhineholt]

I'd be interested to see him on this forum.... That would lead to a lot of pissed off posts..

[Arcane]

I still haven't seen any form of evidence/studies he's researched. And in any case, i think he just restated (although, long winded) everything we knew, besides the p thing. So, what exactly is the argument?

Told ya you should've just smashed his face in when you had the chance... Edited July 29, 2011 by Arcane

[Stuie]

I figure... I am not going to respond.