A Sad Day For America

[mustafabey]

I was terribly disappointed in both Pres.Obama's comments and Jay Carney's press conference today. Both men said something to the effect of the market is the market and we have no control over its day to day fluctuations. Then there is Obama's statement the we are a triple A nation,no matter what S&P says. Lets just make believe the downgrade never happened. We're America dammit,and we don't accept your downgrade. Gee,the Dow Jones is below 11,000, as I write this very moment,another 500 point drop in two days. People are losing money,just like they lost money in 2008,and can take solace in the fact that that Obama says its not happening. Republicans blame democrats,democrats blame republicans and no one dare place the blame on the Tea Party. Carney went out of his way blaming a "gridlocked congress" but echoed Geitner's opinion that the White House has no blame for this travesty. Carney couldn't be cajoled into acknowledging the Tea party. Are they afraid? Do they give the Tea party that much power? And then to make things worse,there is a levity in the press room,laughter and chuckles, a kind of a "we make well over a hundred thousand a year, we ain't worried,he he",while seniors like myself watch our retirement accounts vanish for the second time in three years. Nothing funny about it.
Fact of the matter was this didn't have to happen,it was wholly an event created by the polarization in Washington that has made our government a broken an empty shell,useful only to spew rhetoric about how great we once were. They stand powerless at the brink,while the American people go into free fall. And if that doesn't scare you,then look at the "prayer meeting" Rick Perry had in Texas. A campaign speech for sure,separation of church and state ignored and a stadium of glaze eyed evangelicals,hands held high,hoping for someone to quell the imagined fears they believe to be real. yesterday I heard that many key positions in the Treasury department are unfilled,nominations blocked in the House, The Treasury department,dammit and America going into an economic freefall. Does Obama make recess appointments, no just vague, etherial statements he is so good at making. The conservatives want this President to fail, so bad that they'll take the country down to,just to get the Black man out of the White House. And Obama frets and pussyfoots around for fear someone might call him an angry Black man. So here we sit,savings and wealth being siphoned off daily,numb on junk food and reality TV,uninformed and just don't care.Media swamped with celebrity goings on and other crap. I had to go to BBC to find out what the president said. Today the market crashed,today was non event.

[Chreees]

Answer- Ron Paul and his beliefs. I think they could change things around. Too bad its unlikely he'll ever win...

[ezxen]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' timestamp='1312832945' post='519259']
Answer- Ron Paul and his beliefs. I think they could change things around. Too bad its unlikely he'll ever win...
[/quote]
this is a truth, i think what brought meover was somethingi was reading about him wanting to audit the federal reserve or something to that extent

[Rani]

I know Ron Paul talks a good game but my faith in all politicians is simply gone. If he were to win the White House I have no doubt he'd be owned lock, stock and barrel they same way they all are. Honestly, I think anyone who can get out of the country should get out. Maybe citizens expatriating in droves will finally sound a wake up call. Nothing else seems to have worked. It's depressing, demoralizing, and quite frankly our own fault. We allowed our politics to go to the highest bidder with the lobby system, and now we're all surprised with buyer's remorse. There is this sense of entitlement that we're too big, we stand for too much, we can't fail. I bet the Roman Empire felt exactly the same way. Americans have become as arrogant as centurions ever were. This nation is on it's downhill slide and anyone who doesn't recognize it is likely a fool. I never thought I'd see it in my lifetime, but here it is. And I don't see any way out because nobody with any power seems to be listening. Government has become a great machine that is destroying it's self.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

My theory on life:
do dumb ass things, expect dumb ass results.

raising the debt limit was a dumb ass thing. It put out debt to gdp at 100% dumbass thing 1
blaming everyone and everything except the real cause-dumbass thing 2
saddle the nation with some healthcare BS that scares the crap out of every business owner in the nation. -dumbass thing 3
play games with agencies and regs to circumvent congress - dumbass thing 4
make it obvious you are going to tax the crap out of anyone making more than 50 cents, going around congress to do it. -dumbass thing 5

Now we see the results of being a dumbass.

gold 1720 (wanna bet on 1750 by thurs?)
market takes an extreme hosing for the 8th day
The market falls, and we get a downgrade while he is off on AF1 playing birthday-boy, and collecting campaign donations. zero leadership in a crisis... again.

Wanna bet on seeing a negative GDP for Q4? I'm thinking

and all that idiot can do is blame other people, and run his mouth. Every second he talked people got more jumpy, every word cost $
We are seeing proof of exactly what I said during the campaign, obama is THE least qualified person in any room he walks into. Campaign speeches don't fix anything, don't lead anyone, and don't change anything. Time to pass that memo on to the oval office, because they need to get it.

fire geithner, the clown couldn't figure out turbo tax-obviously he's an idiot. He has what real world business experience? nothing, nada, zip, jack shit, zero, null... and he is in charge of the treasury? What moron thought that would be a good idea?

elections have consequences, and the uninformed/white-guilt/special interest groups picked this guy, now we pay the price. I can only hope he gets a primary challenger, because the repubs aren't coming up with a candidate with an IQ high enough to smack rocks together without pinching their finger.

in short.

saw it coming 3 years ago. I managed to keep my cookies dry, and I am pretty damn happy with myself.

[mustafabey]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1312834923' post='519263']
I know Ron Paul talks a good game but my faith in all politicians is simply gone. If he were to win the White House I have no doubt he'd be owned lock, stock and barrel they same way they all are. Honestly, I think anyone who can get out of the country should get out. Maybe citizens expatriating in droves will finally sound a wake up call. Nothing else seems to have worked. It's depressing, demoralizing, and quite frankly our own fault. We allowed our politics to go to the highest bidder with the lobby system, and now we're all surprised with buyer's remorse. There is this sense of entitlement that we're too big, we stand for too much, we can't fail. I bet the Roman Empire felt exactly the same way. Americans have become as arrogant as centurions ever were. This nation is on it's downhill slide and anyone who doesn't recognize it is likely a fool. I never thought I'd see it in my lifetime, but here it is. And I don't see any way out because nobody with any power seems to be listening. Government has become a great machine that is destroying it's self.

'Rani
[/quote]
I have to agree with you,Rani. Ron Paul says alot of things that appeal to people who see our government broken,but Ron Paul's solutions are not grounded in the 21st century. He speaks from the recently past century,of which he is very much a part. Today we are in a global economy. One that hasn't settled into any regularity. Its like the early internet. The fact is that everything you effects someone else on the globe.Its as significant as the industrial revolution.maybe more. There are no rules besides making money. For instance, we trade food as commodity,we trade energy also. The prices are set by speculators who have no interest in the cost to the consumer. We can't just resign from the globe, stick our head in the sand and hope the whole mess will go away. Its time for a leader. But when these times arrive,you may get a Churchill or FDR or you may get a Hitler or a Genghiz Khan.

[Dr. B]

ITT: people thinking the credit rating for the US Treasury has way more to do with capital markets than it really does.

P.S. Ron Paul is not the answer. The fed =/= the treasury =/= capital markets

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312837751' post='519267']
ITT: people thinking the credit rating for the US Treasury has way more to do with capital markets than it really does.

P.S. Ron Paul is not the answer. The fed =/= the treasury =/= capital markets
[/quote]

the rating affects the interest rate, and that does have a bearing on the market, both directly, and through so many secondary means.

betting on/voting for paul is just plain silly. The guy has as much hope of getting elected as I do of ever having a positive rep on the forum.... basically none.

[Dr. B]

Stocks don't pay out according to interest, they pay out dividends based on what closes to retained earnings. The implication of interest rates on stocks is simply a measure of how hedged against inflation or how much better your capital gains are than your interest incomes. Bond issues, however, are affected by interest rates. Bonds are debt instruments, not capital instruments. You don't see stocks selling at discounts or premiums or being amortized; they are sold at profit or loss and are impaired, rarely.

I left the window open for people's reactions to given interest-rate environments by saying "more than...".

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312843402' post='519277']
Stocks don't pay out according to interest, they pay out dividends based on what closes to retained earnings. The implication of interest rates on stocks is simply a measure of how hedged against inflation or how much better your capital gains are than your interest incomes. Bond issues, however, are affected by interest rates. Bonds are debt instruments, not capital instruments. You don't see stocks selling at discounts or premiums or being amortized; they are sold at profit or loss and are impaired, rarely.

I left the window open for people's reactions to given interest-rate environments by saying "more than...".
[/quote]

Stocks are an investment in a company.
If that company makes toilets, and the interest rate shoots the housing market down hard again, no one is building, and unless you are my psychotic cat-lady neighbor you don't use toilets for planters in your front yard, You don't need any extra toilets.. and the stock you bought in ABC crapper corp is, well.... down the crapper. The intrust rate directly affected the value of that company. Stocks in fanny and friedy are more directly affected.... and they took a downgrade today... along with a market ass-whoopin'. Saying the saying djia is not directly affected by a gov't downgrade is simply incorrect, or an over simplification to the point of being silly.


Stocks sell at a premium, it just happens to be baked into the price. When ABC toilets looks like the crapper biz is falling apart, the stock value plummets, there is your discount. When the opposite happens, you pay a premium. Any stock not sold on a mark-to-market price are sold with premiums/discount figured into what investors are willing to pay for it.


That said, I see what you are saying, I would agree if the stocks buyer were looking to it as an income source on the basis of any dividend. Technically, you are accurate, but for me, I could give a tinker's damn about accuracy, I need to think of it all in a frame that makes me money. My simple mind needs simple definitions, or it makes my brain melt.

[Chreees]

Yeah, after more thoroughly researching Paul, you guys are right, he isn't the answer...

No one or thing is the answer. We're fucked.

[mitchard]

All politicians are monsters. Saying one is the real answer to our prayers is lulz.

[Dr. B]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1312847318' post='519287']
[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312843402' post='519277']
Stocks don't pay out according to interest, they pay out dividends based on what closes to retained earnings. The implication of interest rates on stocks is simply a measure of how hedged against inflation or how much better your capital gains are than your interest incomes. Bond issues, however, are affected by interest rates. Bonds are debt instruments, not capital instruments. You don't see stocks selling at discounts or premiums or being amortized; they are sold at profit or loss and are impaired, rarely.

I left the window open for people's reactions to given interest-rate environments by saying "more than...".
[/quote]

Stocks are an investment in a company.
If that company makes toilets, and the interest rate shoots the housing market down hard again, no one is building, and unless you are my psychotic cat-lady neighbor you don't use toilets for planters in your front yard, You don't need any extra toilets.. and the stock you bought in ABC crapper corp is, well.... down the crapper. The intrust rate directly affected the value of that company. Stocks in fanny and friedy are more directly affected.... and they took a downgrade today... along with a market ass-whoopin'. Saying the saying djia is not directly affected by a gov't downgrade is simply incorrect, or an over simplification to the point of being silly.


Stocks sell at a premium, it just happens to be baked into the price. When ABC toilets looks like the crapper biz is falling apart, the stock value plummets, there is your discount. When the opposite happens, you pay a premium. Any stock not sold on a mark-to-market price are sold with premiums/discount figured into what investors are willing to pay for it.


That said, I see what you are saying, I would agree if the stocks buyer were looking to it as an income source on the basis of any dividend. Technically, you are accurate, but for me, I could give a tinker's damn about accuracy, I need to think of it all in a frame that makes me money. My simple mind needs simple definitions, or it makes my brain melt.
[/quote]

no, you're very right about lending rates affecting productivity. There's a lot (a lot) to be said about cyclical economic happenings, but all I was getting at was that it's less direct than people imagine, especially when compared to actual debt-financing endeavors.

not in the interest of "being right", but to clarify what I meant: a discount or premium is a difference in purchase price from face value in order to achieve an interest rate different than the stated rate. A $100 par bond with 5% interest has to be sold at 99.something% of par when the market rate is 6% because people are demanding a higher return. That's a discount. A difference in purchase price -> selling price is a capital gain or loss.

It's kind of like how depreciation doesn't mean the same thing outside the finance realm as it does within it.

[Venger]

your all wrong. The only way to fix this is to run America like you run your home. You don't say I want cable and a cell phone and the best schools for my kids and the best food in the store, So boss you need to pay me this. You have to look at your income and say this is what I can afford. Hot dogs not steak. A home in the bronxs not Manhattan.
We need to live within our means. Playing the stock market is little different than playing the lottery. You hope your 1 dollar ticket wins you millions but that happens very rarely.
sorry for the reality check but this is the truth of it.
Ray
ps no one owes you shit. get that through your head. you get what you work for or take.

[mustafabey]

Nice to see everyone back in intelligent debate!

[Venger]

totally not a personal attack. I respect were your coming from. Its just very idealistic to believe people (any people)will think of others before themselves. Look at London for instance. Here we have a bunch of socialist who get the bare minimum to survive. Then the cops shoot someone. Do you A:get agree and write you police chief or mayor OR B:steal a bunch of stuff and burn the place to the ground. These people have nothing, don't work for anything,and don't care so they have nothing to lose. Even if they are arrested they get a bed,3 meals a day,and who knows what else (cable,drugs,what have you). I guess my point is if you work hard to get the stuff you have good for you. If you expect to be taken care of because hey, we are all Gods children,that's a nice idea but not very likely.
Ray

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312881176' post='519333']
[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1312847318' post='519287']
[quote name='Dr. B' timestamp='1312843402' post='519277']
Stocks don't pay out according to interest, they pay out dividends based on what closes to retained earnings. The implication of interest rates on stocks is simply a measure of how hedged against inflation or how much better your capital gains are than your interest incomes. Bond issues, however, are affected by interest rates. Bonds are debt instruments, not capital instruments. You don't see stocks selling at discounts or premiums or being amortized; they are sold at profit or loss and are impaired, rarely.

I left the window open for people's reactions to given interest-rate environments by saying "more than...".
[/quote]

Stocks are an investment in a company.
If that company makes toilets, and the interest rate shoots the housing market down hard again, no one is building, and unless you are my psychotic cat-lady neighbor you don't use toilets for planters in your front yard, You don't need any extra toilets.. and the stock you bought in ABC crapper corp is, well.... down the crapper. The intrust rate directly affected the value of that company. Stocks in fanny and friedy are more directly affected.... and they took a downgrade today... along with a market ass-whoopin'. Saying the saying djia is not directly affected by a gov't downgrade is simply incorrect, or an over simplification to the point of being silly.


Stocks sell at a premium, it just happens to be baked into the price. When ABC toilets looks like the crapper biz is falling apart, the stock value plummets, there is your discount. When the opposite happens, you pay a premium. Any stock not sold on a mark-to-market price are sold with premiums/discount figured into what investors are willing to pay for it.


That said, I see what you are saying, I would agree if the stocks buyer were looking to it as an income source on the basis of any dividend. Technically, you are accurate, but for me, I could give a tinker's damn about accuracy, I need to think of it all in a frame that makes me money. My simple mind needs simple definitions, or it makes my brain melt.
[/quote]

no, you're very right about lending rates affecting productivity. There's a lot (a lot) to be said about cyclical economic happenings, but all I was getting at was that it's less direct than people imagine, especially when compared to actual debt-financing endeavors.

not in the interest of "being right", but to clarify what I meant: a discount or premium is a difference in purchase price from face value in order to achieve an interest rate different than the stated rate. A $100 par bond with 5% interest has to be sold at 99.something% of par when the market rate is 6% because people are demanding a higher return. That's a discount. A difference in purchase price -> selling price is a capital gain or loss.

It's kind of like how depreciation doesn't mean the same thing outside the finance realm as it does within it.
[/quote]

I see your point now. I was taking that in entirely the wrong direction. You are correct. I just view the whole process in a more simplified manner, taking it to a point where I can compare information on a level table, with making a few pennies the only goal. (and an all too rare goal to score in these days.)


The natural "rythem" of the economy is non-existent. It's been destroyed by a gov't that insists in micro-managing, over controlling, and picking who it wants to succeed. In such an environment it would appear the best idea is to go turtle, and try to wait it out. One would hope at some point the clowns in DC will figure out they need to get their booger-hooks out of business.

[ChildoftheHorn]

Politics are politics and more that they stretch out this crash, the worse it may become. It has proven time and time again that in industrialized countries, it is better to have one big crash and have it last a year than stretch out a crash over 10 years. I want to blame the government, but it has always been managed by people who are out for themselves and not done as a sense of civic duty. Our biggest issues are with the american education system and bringing up the level of our public colleges. NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE! A famous person once said " If everyone goes to college, you will have fantastic technology and shiitty plumbing."

Bring back the trade schools! When did being a skilled worker with technical expertise become less meaningful than a philosophy degree from community college? Seriously!??!!!??!!

The state manufacturing taxes have to come down because we have become no longer makers of the devices we invent and that is dangerous. For instance, IL has an additional 25% manufacturing tax on top of the federal 20% making it a 45% manufacturing tax before you ever sell the item. How are companies and people supposed to stay in business with that crap?

I moved away from Chicago about a month ago because I just couldn't take it anymore (I lived there for ~13 years).

The fact is that middle class america gets lost. The rich get richer and the derelict live off of money from the government for free. I am sick of paying for people who have spent more time unemployed than employed and those who have multiple children when they are in no condition to raise them. I say that we make birth control free so that people who cannot afford birth control will prevent a ward of the state and put a 2 year limit on collecting benefits for those without means. You can only get what you had put in.

[Venger]

[quote name='ChildoftheHorn' timestamp='1312953956' post='519422']
Politics are politics and more that they stretch out this crash, the worse it may become. It has proven time and time again that in industrialized countries, it is better to have one big crash and have it last a year than stretch out a crash over 10 years. I want to blame the government, but it has always been managed by people who are out for themselves and not done as a sense of civic duty. Our biggest issues are with the american education system and bringing up the level of our public colleges. NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE! A famous person once said " If everyone goes to college, you will have fantastic technology and shiitty plumbing."

Bring back the trade schools! When did being a skilled worker with technical expertise become less meaningful than a philosophy degree from community college? Seriously!??!!!??!!

The state manufacturing taxes have to come down because we have become no longer makers of the devices we invent and that is dangerous. For instance, IL has an additional 25% manufacturing tax on top of the federal 20% making it a 45% manufacturing tax before you ever sell the item. How are companies and people supposed to stay in business with that crap?

I moved away from Chicago about a month ago because I just couldn't take it anymore (I lived there for ~13 years).

The fact is that middle class america gets lost. The rich get richer and the derelict live off of money from the government for free. I am sick of paying for people who have spent more time unemployed than employed and those who have multiple children when they are in no condition to raise them. I say that we make birth control free so that people who cannot afford birth control will prevent a ward of the state and put a 2 year limit on collecting benefits for those without means. You can only get what you had put in.
[/quote]

yes, Thank you.
Ray

[mustafabey]

[quote name='ChildoftheHorn' timestamp='1312953956' post='519422']
Politics are politics and more that they stretch out this crash, the worse it may become. It has proven time and time again that in industrialized countries, it is better to have one big crash and have it last a year than stretch out a crash over 10 years. I want to blame the government, but it has always been managed by people who are out for themselves and not done as a sense of civic duty. Our biggest issues are with the american education system and bringing up the level of our public colleges. NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE! A famous person once said " If everyone goes to college, you will have fantastic technology and shiitty plumbing."

Bring back the trade schools! When did being a skilled worker with technical expertise become less meaningful than a philosophy degree from community college? Seriously!??!!!??!!

The state manufacturing taxes have to come down because we have become no longer makers of the devices we invent and that is dangerous. For instance, IL has an additional 25% manufacturing tax on top of the federal 20% making it a 45% manufacturing tax before you ever sell the item. How are companies and people supposed to stay in business with that crap?

I moved away from Chicago about a month ago because I just couldn't take it anymore (I lived there for ~13 years).

The fact is that middle class america gets lost. The rich get richer and the derelict live off of money from the government for free. I am sick of paying for people who have spent more time unemployed than employed and those who have multiple children when they are in no condition to raise them. I say that we make birth control free so that people who cannot afford birth control will prevent a ward of the state and put a 2 year limit on collecting benefits for those without means. You can only get what you had put in.
[/quote]

Your post gave me thought. Yes,trade schools would help alot. The trouble is that so many skilled jobs got sent overseas that the demand for some of these jobs has declined. Also technology has trimmed the need. Back in the early seventies, I was a vertical turret lathe operator. I won't say machinist,because I couldn't do the set up. Today we have computers to operate these machines, just chuck in the piece and run the program. I'm sure its the same in other industries. We need to aim our trade schools to the 21st century. America is having a tough time adjusting to the 21st century. We rely on old depleted oil wells while China is gobbling up new energy sources in Central Asia plus they have seized the lead in green technology, while Americans are told climate change is a myth.
As for unemployment,welfare, disability,free government monies,etc, recipients should be required to pass random drug tests in order to receive these monies. How many oxycontin and meth users out here in Hillbilly heaven get government money. But when taking on entitlements, remember that many senior citizens rely on social security benifits,have paid into them and most importantly have trusted the government would have those fund when retirement came. And our veterans living on disability checks,how can you deny support to the very men that fought to keep America.s freedoms. To deny these two groups while refusing to raise taxes on people who would classified as super rich is just plain stupid.
Harken to whats happening in Great Britain. It's not just the killing of a Black man.its not just "criminal elements" as the police say it is,it is also social anxiety and anger over budget cuts. You can't just take something from someone without givin g them some substitute. I expect these kind of riots to spring up in America in the not too distant future.

[Rani]

[quote name='mustafabey' timestamp='1312984641' post='519435']
[quote name='ChildoftheHorn' timestamp='1312953956' post='519422']
Politics are politics and more that they stretch out this crash, the worse it may become. It has proven time and time again that in industrialized countries, it is better to have one big crash and have it last a year than stretch out a crash over 10 years. I want to blame the government, but it has always been managed by people who are out for themselves and not done as a sense of civic duty. Our biggest issues are with the american education system and bringing up the level of our public colleges. NOT EVERYONE NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE! A famous person once said " If everyone goes to college, you will have fantastic technology and shiitty plumbing."

Bring back the trade schools! When did being a skilled worker with technical expertise become less meaningful than a philosophy degree from community college? Seriously!??!!!??!!

The state manufacturing taxes have to come down because we have become no longer makers of the devices we invent and that is dangerous. For instance, IL has an additional 25% manufacturing tax on top of the federal 20% making it a 45% manufacturing tax before you ever sell the item. How are companies and people supposed to stay in business with that crap?

I moved away from Chicago about a month ago because I just couldn't take it anymore (I lived there for ~13 years).

The fact is that middle class america gets lost. The rich get richer and the derelict live off of money from the government for free. I am sick of paying for people who have spent more time unemployed than employed and those who have multiple children when they are in no condition to raise them. I say that we make birth control free so that people who cannot afford birth control will prevent a ward of the state and put a 2 year limit on collecting benefits for those without means. You can only get what you had put in.
[/quote]

Your post gave me thought. Yes,trade schools would help alot. The trouble is that so many skilled jobs got sent overseas that the demand for some of these jobs has declined. Also technology has trimmed the need. Back in the early seventies, I was a vertical turret lathe operator. I won't say machinist,because I couldn't do the set up. Today we have computers to operate these machines, just chuck in the piece and run the program. I'm sure its the same in other industries. We need to aim our trade schools to the 21st century. America is having a tough time adjusting to the 21st century. We rely on old depleted oil wells while China is gobbling up new energy sources in Central Asia plus they have seized the lead in green technology, while Americans are told climate change is a myth.
As for unemployment,welfare, disability,free government monies,etc, recipients should be required to pass random drug tests in order to receive these monies. How many oxycontin and meth users out here in Hillbilly heaven get government money. But when taking on entitlements, remember that many senior citizens rely on social security benifits,have paid into them and most importantly have trusted the government would have those fund when retirement came. And our veterans living on disability checks,how can you deny support to the very men that fought to keep America.s freedoms. To deny these two groups while refusing to raise taxes on people who would classified as super rich is just plain stupid.
Harken to whats happening in Great Britain. It's not just the killing of a Black man.its not just "criminal elements" as the police say it is,it is also social anxiety and anger over budget cuts. You can't just take something from someone without givin g them some substitute. I expect these kind of riots to spring up in America in the not too distant future.
[/quote]

Being a moderate liberal overall, and firmly believing that a nation as wealthy and developed as ours is, should absolutely have entitlements for the betterment of their own people. Having said that, entitlements are NOT sacred. When the money isn't there for them, we shouldn't be funding them. HOWEVER, they should be the last thing to be cut. Everything else, starting with foreign aid needs to go FIRST. If our nation looked after it's own citizens first and foremost, including making certain anyone receiving entitlements is qualified by proving citizenship, then we wouldn't have half the mess we've got going on right now. I hate the GOP for insisting all the money be cut from entitlements while leaving global business that's sending our jobs overseas intact. And I hate the Democratic Party for insisting entitlements never be touched while also leaving global business intact. Wall Street keeps winning and the American people keep losing. There is something completely and immorally wrong with that.

'Rani


'Rani

[TheScotsman]

I think the nation should help those that truly, absolutely need help. But anyone on that help that makes any decision that would increase their need of welfare (have a kid, whatever) needs to get their lazy ass tossed off the dole within a month. Not reduced, and sure as hell not increased, but just tossed out of their subsidized housing, energy, off their food stamps, wic, whatever else there is for the lazy buggers. Let's see a 3 year lifetime limit to welfare. I am sick and tired of funding the ghetto repopulation project that welfare has become.

Now, one has to wonder what hope there is for an economy in dire need of manufacturing when the school teaches gay history, and social justice, but not industrial arts/math/SPELLING!!!/The Queen's English. I can't hire a HS grad and have them run a sliding table saw/shaper/wide belt/resaw machine/jointer/planers. (no, really, I can't my insurer- farm bureau - will not insure them. My agent said (exact quote) "Those kids are too f*cking dumb to wipe their ass, we aren't ever going to insure them on those tools". And just forget having them do even simple math-that's a joke... can't have them talk to clients because they are unskilled in the verbal arts... cussing to 60 year old women while handing them a quote for a 30K$ build is not going to get you any signatures. And don't even think of how the dumb buggers dress. I couldn't care less what the style of the week is-they look like criminals-not who old ladys let into their 5 million dollar lake home. Show up for an app with saggy pants, hat on backwards/sideways/crooked, loud stereo when they pull in, visible tats, any article of clothing containing any writing, graphics other than the label, and that app is in the bin before their car seat is warm. They are representing ME when they work for me, and I am not in need of anyone to make me look like an idiot-I can do that perfectly fine on my own. Offending customers in a high dollar/low volume business just can't happen. Believe me, people will call to voice their opinion to the owner when the drones offends their sensibilities.
-didn't mean to go off on a tangent.... I just had 2 kids matching most of the above show up and ask if I needed help. College grads are worse-they think they know what they are talking about, and they are sure to tell everyone how things should be done. Usually are just a pain in the ass. Best person, at least for me, is a GED living with a mate, and with a few years in the guard, or reserve. It may be that the world has slapped them around, they realize a job is more important than looking like a punk... whatever it is, it has taught them to pick up instruction fast, they can talk to clients when they need to, and do it respectfully. (likely a skill learned form talking to their probation officer?) best of all... trust-able with the gate code, and they don't scare my woman into walking around the house with her detonics tucked in her pocket. (we avoid having the Irish/NDN lady with a temper armed as much as we can.)

Oh, and why is it they show up with a friend to fill out an app? Don't do that unless it's a Siamese twin-scares owners for so many reasons.

Between the helicopter moms, and the zero-risk schools we have a load of people unable to function in a world where knives are sharp and hurting yourself is your own damn fault... and hurts!


[size="4"][i][b][u]Put a firm number on the term "super rich" or it's just a BS democrat talking point[/u][/b][/i][/size]. Then realize we are in a world economy. In that global situation even the brokest person in the USA is in the upper 10% worldwide. Be careful what you wish for, because you are the "super rich" (whatever the hell that really means) and YOU need to be taxed of all that extra money you have, to fund the tin huts in Somalia. (or wherever).

Look at the UK, Spain, Greece... that is where we are going if we don't handle welfare, and excessive gov't employment. don't think the USA is immune to jackasses rioting against everyone around them. Look at Wisc, and absolutely any SEIU event in the last 5 years.

[Rani]

Oh God help me..... Scotsman and I are on the same page.

[size="1"]I'm scared. [/size][img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sad44.gif[/img]

'Rani

[mustafabey]

Me,too Whats this nation coming to???????????

[Venger]

all of us on the same page...it must really be broken. until we can get the lobbies and unions out of our governments pants they are bought and paid for and all the screaming from us down here will never be louder than their deep pockets.
Ray