Serious Tobacco Research Question /health Issues

[Hassouni]

[quote name='Hellz' timestamp='1316040697' post='523899']
Honestly, if you are really that concerned about it do your own research.. the government gives grants for this type of shit. You'd be suprised about the funding you could get. And honestly. Why does it really matter? If it's something you enjoy doing why stop? You're not making it out alive in the end anyway. You can die driving tomorrow, Not really a big deal man. Atleast I think it's not something to freak out over anyway.
[/quote]

As for the whole mortality thing - Yes, you're right. BUT there are things you can do to improve your chances, in your example, by being an alert driver. It's my goal to improve my chances.

[quote name='Arcane' timestamp='1316046820' post='523914']
If a bone claw starts coming out of my weiner, I'd stop smoking hookah no matter how much I enjoy it.

On a somewhat serious note, it's not just the funding that's the concern....you have to know how to conduct such tests as well, which probably requires some sort of training/education.
[/quote]

Correct, methinks

[gigi]

This topic is really interesting. I am always on the search for more information regarding this subject.

Hassouni. Do you smoke everyday? I'm goin through a phase where i smoke 2 coco naras every night. I really feel like that's alot and I need to cut down :/.

[Hassouni]

No I usually smoke on average 2 times a week

[Sonthert]

First off, Po-210 and other radionuclides found in tobacco are implicated as a prime source of cancer by some researchers. It is something to be considered.

Mention was made of [color=#5B1094]Kamal Chaouachi[/color]. He is a free thinker and is critical of much of the anti-hookah research that has been conducted by several people.

[size=4]As I understand what I have read of that article and other articles, the radionuclides get "trapped" in the lungs since tobacco smoke is oily...and it tends to trap the radioactive particles in there. Its also what persists and causes the visible damage seen on chest X-Rays. Hookah vapors are far more soluble and more easily voided from the lungs than cigarette smoke which might reduce the effect of "trapping" radioactive particles. [/size]

[size=4]Another study released a year or two ago, blamed the carcinogenic nature of tobacco on the nitrosamines caused by the heated flue-curing process of cigarette tobacco changing the nicotine into nitrosmaines. The study pointed out the significantly lower rates of cancer in Australia, where they sun-dry their tobacco. The study claimed that cancer rates could be drastically reduced by sun-drying tobacco.[/size]

Can both be true? Sure, if the risk of nitrosamines causing cancer is is a larger piece "of the pie" than radionuclides.

So, yeah, the risk of cancer is still there. From radionuclides, nitrosamines, all sorts of stuff. If you started smoking hookah because you thought it was safe, stop immediately!

Note that the study in question is in regards to cigarette smoke too.

[Sonthert]

Guess I can't edit posts anymore.

How could the smoke be more radioactive as the temperature is higher?

Radon is a gas. It decays into other radionuclides, like Po-210 and Pb-210. The Rn largely just "floats off", but there is a residue on the tobacco from the atoms of Radon that just happened to decay while it was "in the" tobacco. The reason? Radon is a gas, lead and Polonium are solids. When you heat a solid, but not get it to melt or turn to a gas, it has an increased tendency to vaporize. The boiling point of any substance is defined as the point at which the vapor pressure of the material is equal to or higher than the atmospheric pressure. The vapor pressure of a substance rises with temperature. So, the hotter the tobacco product, the more vaporization of material will occur, including radionuclides. Cigarettes burn much hotter than our glycerol-based moassel does. Cigarettes burn around 700-800F, hookah tobacco doesn't get above 550F for the most part. that increase in temperature increases the amount of radionuclides that are vaporized and enter the vapor stream. They can reflux out, turn back into a solid or a liquid in the process, which is likely to make a lot of it not finish its pathway into your lungs. Overall though, that radioactive material has to get into your lungs. It can't just magically walk there on its own, it has to vaporize and then it can make its way into your lungs. Cigarettes have a much shorter distance for the smoke to travel, so the reflux will be smaller and the temperature is higher, so you will get more radioactivity PRESUMABLY than from a hookah, that has a longer distance to travel, increasing the chance of the material refluxing back out and there will be less radioactive material that is vaporized due to the lower temperatures in hookah vapors.

Addendum points: Aluminum does not show any appreciable tendency to vaporize until after it has melted. Some materials (like gold, platinum, aluminum, stainless steel) don't vaporize until they get above 1000F or 1500F or even higher. You can tell those metals because they have "no smell" The characteristic smell that a metal has, say copper, is caused by the tendency of the metal to vaporize as I have described.

People living at higher altitudes are more at risk, since atmospheric pressures are lower, making the tendency of radionuclides to vaporize more pronounced. Of course, that is true of everything at higher altitudes. People living at higher altitudes are exposed to more radiation in general too.

[Sonthert]

Also refer to these points you quoted:

[[i]CANCER] Our comprehensive transdisciplinary (biomedical/social sciences) doctoral thesis offered the first substantial critical review of the health effects of hookah smoking. It highlighted the generally weak observed association between hookah smoking and cancer. In 2007, we published the first aetiological study on cigarette, hookah and mixed cigarette/hookah smokers. Using CEA as a cancer biomarker, we found a lower risk for hookah smokers. In 2009, we published the results of our further investigation on exclusive hookah smokers who have been using, for decades, huge amounts of tobacco in their pipes (each time, in the bowl, the tobacco-weight equivalent of up to 60 cigarettes). We found a much weaker association than that induced by cigarette smoking. These results are in agreement with the bulk of previous studies on this issue.[/i]

[u][b]but:[/b][/u]

[i][RADIOACTIVITY] We have assessed the radiological activity of various brands of moassel and compared it to that from cigarettes. We found no great difference between both products.[/i]

[i]The more the temperature is elevated, the more carcinogenic the smoke is. In these conditions, hookah tar is qualitatively very different from that produced by cigarettes. Furthermore, in the case of the fashionable shisha (using flavoured molasses tobacco with glycerol), a great portion of the calculated "tar" is expected to be made up of glycerol which has proved not "adversely alter the smoke chemistry or biological effects normally associated with exposure to mainstream cigarette smoke"[/i]

From the first point, Dr. Chaouachi is saying that the data doesn't support that hookah tobacco poses as much of a risk as cigarettes (using the cancer precursor CEA as a measuring stick). the relationship is much weaker. Additionally, he is making the point that the quantity of tobacco consumed by hookah smokers is far higher, although the relationship is much weaker. If the radionuclide content of the tobacco was a fixed amount, then the more tobacco you used, the higher the risk, the stronger the relationship between smoking hookah and cancer. This is not the case. So, it would seem, as I understand the matter and What Dr. Chaouachi is saying, that the radioactivity factor is a minor factor or a non-factor in hookah smoking. It may be a giant factor in cigarette smoking, but it is far less serious in hookah smoking. Still a risk though.

Notice in the second point, as I read it, he is saying that hookah vapor doesn't alter the biochemistry adversely as is associated with mainstream cigarette smoke. As such, you would imagine that people who smoke hookah, but not cigarettes, would have no outward signs in something like a chest X-Ray and most hookah smokers don't. I never have...and you have to work a lot to smoke as much hookah as I do.

To answer another of your questions, Hassouni, the radioactivity associated with the tobacco is very small. The risk is getting these particles trapped in your lungs. They are alpha particle emitters and cause great damage. However, do to the nature of alpha particles, your shirt and pants protect your from alpha-particle radiation. When you get it inside, where there is no cloth or anything there to protect you, it will cause significant radiological damage.

[Sonthert]

I submitted the body of my posts to Dr. Chaouachi for his evaluation to see if he agrees with my points. I will let you know if he disagrees with the substance of what I have posted.

[joytron]

Thank you for coming on here and sharing your thoughts on the subject

[Hassouni]

Wow, honestly Eric, thanks so much. I look forward to hearing what Dr Chaouachi has to say

[Chreees]

Oh hai, Eric.

Good read. Despite my general ignorance on much of it, your conclusions seem to make a lot of sense to me. Thank you for explaining all of it. I wasn't too worried about hookah smoking in the first place just based off of how it doesn't make me feel any different and also how I know many people on these boards have gone in for medical exams and come out with no proof that they are hookah smokers. Quite the opposite for cigarette smokers. Anyway, I don't feel that I should be worried and will continue on smoking. Will I smoke for the rest of my life? Who knows. But for now, I'm going to enjoy it.

[king_lunchb0x]

sweet he is back! The quantity is whats crazy, a single bowl is equal to 60 cigarettes, and yet is still not as strong as cigarettes in the cancer inducing parts. Some of this is just over my head. Interesting though from what i do understand.

[Fouda]

[quote name='Sonthert' timestamp='1316496328' post='524467']
First off, Po-210 and other radionuclides found in tobacco are implicated as a prime source of cancer by some researchers. It is something to be considered.
Mention was made of [color=#5B1094]Kamal Chaouachi[/color]. He is a free thinker and is critical of much of the anti-hookah research that has been conducted by several people. What
I have found from our correspondences, as I understand his points, he is of the opinion that Tom Eissenburg and [size=2]A. Shihadeh are being funded by pharmaceutical companies who are selling smoking cessation aids like nicotine
patches and the like as well as the cigarette manufacturers who are trying to keep the competition down. [/size]
[size=2]As I understand what I have read of that article and other articles, the radionuclides get
"trapped" in the lungs since tobacco smoke is oily...and it tends to trap the radioactive particles in there. Its also what persists and causes the
visible damage seen on chest X-Rays. Hookah vapors are far more soluble and more easily voided from the lungs than cigarette smoke which might reduce the effect of "trapping" radioactive particles. [/size]
[size=2]Another study released a year or two ago, blamed the carcinogenic nature of tobacco on the nitrosamines caused by the heated flue-curing process of cigarette tobacco changing the nicotine into nitrosmaines. The study pointed out the significantly lower rates of cancer in Australia, where they sun-dry their tobacco. The study claimed that cancer rates could be drastically reduced by sun-drying [/size]tobacco.
Can both be true? Sure, if the risk of nitrosamines causing cancer is is a larger piece "of the pie" than radionuclides.
So, yeah, the risk of cancer is still there. From radionuclides, nitrosamines, all sorts of stuff. If you started smoking hookah because you thought it was safe, stop immediately!
Note that the study in question is in regards to cigarette smoke too.
[/quote]


Thank you! You seem to be the only one who posted helpful information on this subject

[Arcane]

probably because he's the only one in this community that can provide beneficial info...not all of us have a degree in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering...

did you, by any chance, have anything helpful to provide?

[Arcane]

oh, Hassouni...I don't know if you were around for this discussion. It's a good read.

[url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/35476-something-falsely-reported-false-information"]http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/35476-something-falsely-reported-false-information[/url]

[Sonthert]

Well, yes, Chris, but of course, you are theoretically introducing alpha-particle emitting isotopes into your lungs, where they bombard your bronchi directly. You might not feel any different for 20 years and then you get a good case of lung cancer.

[DrSmokes]

Yeah, xrays will not show anything until you have lung cancer (or pneumonia). But has anyone gone to an Internal Health Specialist? They do reflex points that determine where the most stress in your body is and one of the points is lungs. Or how about Professional Applied Kinesiology (PAK) where nearly each muscle is related to an organ as well as many "reflexes" that can help aid in the healing of the lungs? These are better ways of finding earlier signs of stress caused by anything (environment, injury, diet, etc).

[Pavo21]

well eric again you blew my mind good read, i enjoy all the information you have to offer i'll go talk to erica about it also maybe actually make her sit down and read this lol good luck on that, but good point on the whole subject i try to explain to those who ask this will give me a bit more in site to the situation also i got my beard! well had to start over due to a new job i wanted and got of course thanks for pressuring her to making me do so

[ih303]

Sorry for rezzing this thread, but here is a [url="http://publicationslist.org/kamal.chaouachi"]list[/url] of Kamal Chaouachi's publications for anyone who is interested in HEAVY reading. This guy is one of my personal heroes of the smoking world.

Oh, and here is a [url="http://www.hookahforum.com/topic/40159-im-getting-really-tired/page__st__40__p__490652__hl__ih303#entry490652"]link[/url] to a past thread where I actually contacted the man himself.

[headhunter]

you sir are my hero for giving me this link, there are alot of intersting articles in their. Some that i have read already others that i have not but either way it is very cool.

[sksiazki]

Excellent post and additions!  Really excellent post, this sort really adds to the forum.  Thank you for taking the time to share your research Hassouni and thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge Eric.  ha, I will say it again, this was excellent and gives me a good jump off point to read more on the subject.  

Hassouni et al, have you delved any further into this subject?
Thanks again

[Tyler]

Wow necro thread alert! LOL I remember this one when it first came out, interesting read. It was actually the thread that made me decided that "I'll smoke as long as I enjoy it and the moment it starts to be more of a chore, an expense, or anything other than a fun hobby, I will quit"

[sksiazki]

Haha sorry, haven't been around for a few years.  I was impressed with the time invested in this beyond the normal supposition and "facts because I think so" with no real supporting evidence behind them.  Cancer is definitely a negative of smoking lol theres no benefit in denying it or burying our heads in the sand, if anything that only makes us more vulnerable to attacks from those extremes who would ban shisha/hookah bars.  It is impressive to see real thought put into the discussion.

 

Haha has smoking become a chore yet?  That sounds like a pretty good measure for anything in your life, once it becomes a chore, it probably isn't the most efficient or beneficial use of your time.

[Tyler]

Nope, still love it today just as much, if not moreso, than when this post was made :P

[Chreees]

Nothing wrong with necroing old threads, so long as you add something worthwhile to the topic. ;) Necro on, brotha.

[mattarios2]

Recently in one of Eric's videos If I remember correctly, he said it is unlikely to get lung cancer from hookah smoking, he said what you need to be concerned/keep an eye out for is cardiovascular disease.