Occupy Wallstreet: Discuss

[joytron]

[url="http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday"]http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday[/url]

[Chreees]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1319141004' post='528480']
1965 - 10% of America is on some sort of government assistant program.

1985 - 22% of America is on some sort of government assistant program.

2011 - 48% of America is on some sort of government assistant program.

I see a problem with the people and the source of the money drain!!!! (Taxes are to high for me because I help support 48% of the American population)

F@#$*) IT! I am gonna quit and go live off the government. Amazing how many Escalades reside at the Section 8 Apartments just outside my neighborhood.

What's my motivation to work now? Seriously?
[/quote]

Even though these government assistance programs were created with good intentions, they have failed miserably. People now actually aspire to live off of the gov. I saw it growing up in my hometown. It was ridiculous. Some kids talked of college, while others said, "Man, I don't need that shit. All I have to do is go get me some welfare and I'm good." It's so sad. But what's more sad is that the gov allows it. What's even more sad than that is that it was necessary to install these types of government assistance programs in the first place. We need to work towards fixing the country so that these programs are no longer needed. Everyone talks about it, but no one actually does anything about it. No one has a plan. It's all, "Oh, this'll work, here's my idea, but I don't really know the full dynamics of it and how it will work" (Cain's 999 Plan). We need a man or woman with a solid plan that is clearly defined to fix this country. It must be set in stone and stuck to and actually be followed through with. It will take years and TONS of cooperation between the two parties, but it is necessary if we wish to save this country.

[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1319142163' post='528486']
[url="http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday"]http://www.nytimes.c...html?ref=sunday[/url]
[/quote]

Very nice image. Really lays it out there.

[Fusion]

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[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1319137016' post='528467'][/color]
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[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319134958' post='528465'][/color]
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Rani, if Glenn Beck and Howard Stern couldn't pull the wool off from over your eyes, I don't know what will. God help you woman. Besides, living in a cool post-apocalyptic world would be the perfect setting to further display my political nihilism as a badge of honor.[/color]
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Bootstraps.[/color]
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Glenn Beck? Howard Stern? This would be whom I should count on for political advice? Really?[/color]
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Yes. (No!! That post you quoted was ironic, we're definitely both on the same page here.) [/color]
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[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1319142163' post='528486'][/color]

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[url="http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday"]http://www.nytimes.c...html?ref=sunday[/url][/color]
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This is mindbogglingly depressing, but now I see how the old farts can still hold onto that whole "bootstraps" mindset. Too bad as a young person I never got to experience firsthand the decades of shared success and prosperity that all economic classes shared, which gave way to the middle class which is now being gutted. Because of this, I can see how an older generation could think of us younger folks and those occupying Wall Street as lazy, jealous whiners who want to be millionaires but don't want to work or whatever, but on the flip-side, you older farts haven't seen the economy from our angle either so there's a massive set of blinders each side is wearing here.

[Chreees]

[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319147302' post='528501']
This is mindbogglingly depressing, but now I see how the old farts can still hold onto that whole "bootstraps" mindset. Too bad as a young person I never got to experience firsthand the decades of shared success and prosperity that all economic classes shared, which gave way to the middle class which is now being gutted. Because of this, I can see how an older generation could think of us younger folks and those occupying Wall Street as lazy, jealous whiners who want to be millionaires but don't want to work or whatever, [b]but on the flip-side, you older farts haven't seen the economy from our angle either[/b] so there's a massive set of blinders each side is wearing here.
[/quote]

And what angle might that be? Mind explaining what the old farts are missing? I'm just curious.

[Rani]

[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319147302' post='528501']

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1319137016' post='528467']

[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319134958' post='528465']

Rani, if Glenn Beck and Howard Stern couldn't pull the wool off from over your eyes, I don't know what will. God help you woman. Besides, living in a cool post-apocalyptic world would be the perfect setting to further display my political nihilism as a badge of honor.



Bootstraps.

[/quote]



Glenn Beck? Howard Stern? This would be whom I should count on for political advice? Really?

[/quote]

Yes. (No!! That post you quoted was ironic, we're definitely both on the same page here.)



[quote name='joytron' timestamp='1319142163' post='528486']


[url="http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday"]http://www.nytimes.c...html?ref=sunday[/url]

[/quote]

This is mindbogglingly depressing, but now I see how the old farts can still hold onto that whole "bootstraps" mindset. Too bad as a young person I never got to experience firsthand the decades of shared success and prosperity that all economic classes shared, which gave way to the middle class which is now being gutted. Because of this, I can see how an older generation could think of us younger folks and those occupying Wall Street as lazy, jealous whiners who want to be millionaires but don't want to work or whatever, but on the flip-side, you older farts haven't seen the economy from our angle either so there's a massive set of blinders each side is wearing here.
[/quote]

I do NOT think of your generation as lazy. What I do think is that because you've never had the opportunity to see what building a business from scratch to major success over a 20 year plus period gives you a different viewpoint than those of us to lived and watched that happen over decades in the past. I think the system is now so stacked against you, that unless your generation does something rather radical you're lost without ever having stood a chance, and I also believe that change CAN happen. Yes, Stuie, I know about entitlements, and there's something very wrong about the way they're administered. There should absolutely be a work in return for the assistance program. If for no other reason that it changes your mentality. A hopelessness sets in. And you end up buying crap to replace your self-respect. People boast about taking advantage, but those are the same people sunk in alcoholism and dead ends that might not be trying to falsely boost their self-esteem by pretending it's better than standing on top of a home and business you built and deserving to be proud of it. But those entitlements are part of the same system. EVERYTHING about it is corrupt and abused and you will see blood running in the streets before your lifetimes are over if you don't make some kind of change. You have the power and if it starts by just sitting on your ass on concrete making Wall Street, and government, and the global industrialists think about someone else and the fact that you're finally pissed off enough to do something about it, then at least it's a step in the right direction. From tiny little acorns great big oak trees grow.

'Rani

[Fusion]

[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1319147935' post='528502']
And what angle might that be? Mind explaining what the old farts are missing? I'm just curious.
[/quote]


That a whole generation of people just like them who grew up and did everything they were supposed to (listened to their parents, went to school, ate all their vegetables, built a solid work ethic, etc.) are now graduating high school or college with nowhere near a semblance of the opportunities that the old farts had in their day, and they're frustrated. It doesn't matter if you have a high school diploma, a 4-year or advanced degree, the opportunities made available to somebody graduating in the '60s or '70s are definitely still around, but somebody graduating in today's economy will be hard pressed to find them.

The world that my generation has inherited is radically different from the one the old farts did, and for the worse. I think a big part of what you're seeing in the Occupy Wall Street movement is the fact that my generation wants the same prosperity our parents and their parents had but are now losing, and they and those of us who support the movement simply want to live in that world or at least make sure our children will have a fighting chance at inheriting it someday.


Also Rani, I was not including you in the group of old farts I was referencing, I've agreed with most if not all of what you've said here in this thread

[joytron]

The price we pay for gaining experience with age is an increasing conviction of the correctness of our methods and assumptions.

[Chreees]

[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319149203' post='528506']
[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1319147935' post='528502']
And what angle might that be? Mind explaining what the old farts are missing? I'm just curious.
[/quote]


That a whole generation of people just like them who grew up and did everything they were supposed to (listened to their parents, went to school, ate all their vegetables, built a solid work ethic, etc.) are now graduating high school or college with nowhere near a semblance of the opportunities that the old farts had in their day, and they're frustrated. It doesn't matter if you have a high school diploma, a 4-year or advanced degree, the opportunities made available to somebody graduating in the '60s or '70s are definitely still around, but somebody graduating in today's economy will be hard pressed to find them.

The world that my generation has inherited is radically different from the one the old farts did, and for the worse. I think a big part of what you're seeing in the Occupy Wall Street movement is the fact that my generation wants the same prosperity our parents and their parents had but are now losing, and they and those of us who support the movement simply want to live in that world or at least make sure our children will have a fighting chance at inheriting it someday.


Also Rani, I was not including you in the group of old farts I was referencing, I've agreed with most if not all of what you've said here in this thread
[/quote]

Ah okay... I was like, "Wait, Rani is saying all of this stuff, so I think she does see that angle..." up until you put at the end that you weren't including her in that statement. It was just a bit confusing, I suppose. I agree with you on what you said in this post, though.

[Fusion]

[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1319151923' post='528510']
[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319149203' post='528506']
[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1319147935' post='528502']
And what angle might that be? Mind explaining what the old farts are missing? I'm just curious.
[/quote]


That a whole generation of people just like them who grew up and did everything they were supposed to (listened to their parents, went to school, ate all their vegetables, built a solid work ethic, etc.) are now graduating high school or college with nowhere near a semblance of the opportunities that the old farts had in their day, and they're frustrated. It doesn't matter if you have a high school diploma, a 4-year or advanced degree, the opportunities made available to somebody graduating in the '60s or '70s are definitely still around, but somebody graduating in today's economy will be hard pressed to find them.

The world that my generation has inherited is radically different from the one the old farts did, and for the worse. I think a big part of what you're seeing in the Occupy Wall Street movement is the fact that my generation wants the same prosperity our parents and their parents had but are now losing, and they and those of us who support the movement simply want to live in that world or at least make sure our children will have a fighting chance at inheriting it someday.


Also Rani, I was not including you in the group of old farts I was referencing, I've agreed with most if not all of what you've said here in this thread
[/quote]

Ah okay... I was like, "Wait, Rani is saying all of this stuff, so I think she does see that angle..." up until you put at the end that you weren't including her in that statement. It was just a bit confusing, I suppose. I agree with you on what you said in this post, though.
[/quote]

Yeah I think making that ironic post threw off the rhythm of the thread, sorry. But at least we got to explore more of where each side is coming from, I really liked joytron's post and think that about sums it up. There's a Steinbeck quote that I also love, but sensitive eyes be warned, it has the S-word: [i]Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.[/i]

Even when times weren't nearly as tough years ago, policies and the economic framework were changing to bring about the problems we're facing now. The middle class was born and thrived after the fallout of the Great Depression cleared, but as the years went on, their opportunities and success began to be sold out from under them. Small business owners don't see the kind of representation in our political system or have the lobbyists that corporations do, that manage to get new tax codes and economic policies passed in their favor. The ladder was there for the climbing, but at the same time being pulled up inch by inch. The backlash was mild enough that the middle class and even the working class could just shrug it off, being temporarily embarrassed millionaires, or they might not notice it altogether. But not anymore.

I don't think the message behind this movement has compelled anybody to head out there for handouts or because they're lazy and jealous people that want to be millionaires. They're there because they're frustrated with the state of the economy and seeing billions of tax dollars go to bail out the same financial sector that made money off the front-end by giving millions of Americans predatory loans on things like real estate, and off the back-end by taking derivatives based on that same loan they knew could not be repaid... among other things that have already been covered. And where's the justice?

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1319147935' post='528502']
[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1319147302' post='528501']
This is mindbogglingly depressing, but now I see how the old farts can still hold onto that whole "bootstraps" mindset. Too bad as a young person I never got to experience firsthand the decades of shared success and prosperity that all economic classes shared, which gave way to the middle class which is now being gutted. Because of this, I can see how an older generation could think of us younger folks and those occupying Wall Street as lazy, jealous whiners who want to be millionaires but don't want to work or whatever, [b]but on the flip-side, you older farts haven't seen the economy from our angle either[/b] so there's a massive set of blinders each side is wearing here.
[/quote]

And what angle might that be? Mind explaining what the old farts are missing? I'm just curious.
[/quote]

I don't need to stand at the bottom of a septic tank to know it's full of shit. Blinders or not I can smell the honey, no need for wellies to know it sucks to stand in.

[littlec]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu_VuxWCYhQ[/media]

Do you really think being a blowhard liberal/socialist/republitard shitting the the streets and blocking traffic is going to change ANYTHING? You're all fools big business doesn't give a fuck what you fucks think, you want change you got to burn off the chaff first, the leeches, the sellouts,and diehard professional politicians working nothing for that pension and throwbacks from businesses that don't give a fuck what you and I want. Liberal, democrat, republican, conservative, you're all a bunch of fucking ugly heads to the same goddamn monster that is raping this nation, to hell with all of that. Edited October 21, 2011 by littlec

[atalanta]

[url="http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-senate-jobs-20111020,0,1778694.story"]http://www.latimes.c...0,1778694.story[/url]

I heard this on the way in this morning. Yeah! The 1% don't have to worry about having to help pay for teachers, fire fighters, and police. Who needs them anyway, kids can go to private schools, mansions don't burn, and they can buy any security team they need. Edited October 21, 2011 by atalanta

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='atalanta' timestamp='1319201951' post='528568']
[url="http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-senate-jobs-20111020,0,1778694.story"]http://www.latimes.c...0,1778694.story[/url]

I heard this on the way in this morning. Yeah! The 1% don't have to worry about having to help pay for teachers, fire fighters, and police. Who needs them anyway, kids can go to private schools, mansions don't burn, and they can buy any security team they need.
[/quote]


And they hire that security team by selling your future down the road. Where do you think all that gov't spending comes from? Hmmm... let me think... I almost have it.... CHINA.

After all, with the mess the teacher's union, and "State required curriculum" standards have made, if a person could have their kids taught what they need to know, rather than what activists want taught, they would be insane not to send kids there. On the private side kids come out with higher average scores, and a better understanding of the subjects required for a successful college education, or career, on the public side you get gay history, the liberal agenda of the teacher's union, and to recite the Mexican pledge. Hmmm... now why in the hell would you ever expect anyone to send their kids to the public indoctrination center? That is just silly to a point of becoming stupid.

Fact: If the 99% confiscate 100% of the income from the [u]top 1%[/u] of filers we get a total of around 938 billion. So now you have your wish, and the "millionaires and billionaires" are dead broke, no more tax can come from them, because you already took it all. Their businesses are closed, kaput, audios, gone. and it didn't even make a dent in the 4 trillion deficit from [u]last year alone[/u]. The 99% are still screwed, and taking out a 3 trillion dollar loan to pay for last year, but now a bunch of the 99% have no jobs.

Now we extend it to the top 10% of filers (incomes around 120K/year) This is allot of people you know, and virtually every LLC owner in the nation. We take all their money this year, they have zero income, no job, their businesses collapse as a result. We gain another 3.5 trillion. Damn, that math works! we take 100% from everyone making over 120K ad we paid for [u]last years[/u] spending. Ya, that's a plan! Now we have no businesses, and an unemployment in the private sector of near 100%, but hey, what are a few facts to a liberal.

The problem isn't people paying, it's that ALL their income won't satisfy the debt of a gov't that can't quit pissing money into a hole.

So, you future is going into the shitter in order for Obama to send 500 million of your future to a car company in Finland, that makes one model... a $120,000.00 plugin hybrid sports car. that you are never, ever, going to have even the slightest chance to own. After all... they have only made 2 of them... And by the way, Algore is one of the prime investors in that car company. Go green-too bad you never figured out that the only green going, is greenbacks, from your pocket to theirs.

Or a nearly 1.3 billion $ loan to a photovoltaic panel company... the DOE said would create "100's of jobs"... currently in a takeover deal between the private investors, giving 100% control to Major Gas & Oil, a wholely-owned French National oil company... and building the panels at an automated facility in Mexicalli, Mexico. How's that for selling your future down the green road to brokeness?

The "new" Solyndra... "First solar" got 3.11 billion, and they are circling the drain faster than the scrubbing bubbles guy. 1 dollar will get you 5, they don't make it through Q1-12, and even money they are tits-up by Q4-12.

Then there is 740 million for a solar-thermal system in the desert... the private investors include a majority owned by a company who's #2 is Nancy "Pass-the-Botox" Pelosi's Brother in Law.

Now tell me how any of those broke-dick companies, with direct ties to political insiders were a good investment... paid by [u]your future[/u], in an economy where a person at minimum wage can't afford a 1br apartment. How many jobs do you think they made for any of the 99% in America?

For the love of it all... a few months ago I was watching a documentry about how good of deal the auto bailouts were, and right there, about the middle, I saw a Caddilac commercial, followed by a GMC truck commercial. Am I the only one seeing BS when I see a documentry about how good the bailout was... brought to me by a company that was bailed out, and paid for with bailout dollars? Maybe the 1% isn't the top income but rather the 1% that are not baffled by the bullshit from the military-police-govt-industrial complex.

Don't blame me... I didn't vote for them. Now gimme back my tin foil hat, I gota get to work to pay for my seat at this fiasco. Edited October 21, 2011 by TheScotsman

[Stuie]

I am sick of all this.

I thought we had reached a point in our society were we didn't pick on minorities.
First, women, then non-whites, then people with questionable immigration status, then homosexuals, now 1% of the population that has money....

You people make me sick!!!!!!!!!

[Venger]

explain to me again how your going to college and getting a degree (which I was not able to afford) so that you can make more money in your career of choice makes me (a tax payer) responsable for your student loans. This whole movement ,while noble,is a joke. A corporation does not own billions of dollars. A corporation is a group of people (mostly stock holders) trying to make some money for their kids college or retirement. So if you have a 401k sit down, if you drive a car (paying big oil for gas) sit down,and if you don't buy 100% american sit the fuck down. If people would just do their best, instead of just enough to get by, America would be everything we all want it to be.
Ray
P.S. stop whining and just be a better person.
end of line.

[Giant Ninja Robot]

Being a better person does not in any way whatsoever hold Corporations and Government accountable for their decisions and actions. Yeah they are human beings. Which is precisely why accountability is necessary. I personally have done WAY the fuck more than most people dream of in a lifetime to better myself this year alone. And I've made a large positive impact on my family, friends, and strangers for doing so. So I reserve the fucking right to voice what I have to say. Oh, and I didn't go to school. Because I'm poor. And responsible. Quit playing to sterotypes. A movement is more than a single demographic. And once more, obviously it's a sentiment shared world over and thus does not apply only to this country. If we all focus on ourselves the world COULD be amazing like you say. I fully agree. But guess what?! You're completely ignoring the fact that entire organizations are going unchallenged in their misery spreading because A - most people have no fucking CLUE how much shit has gone down in business and government to the detriment of individuals, states, nations, the planet itself...because we've all just turned a blind eye.

Keep finding excuses to shut the people up but don't complain to me when shit has collapsed and you wonder how it came to this. Time to face reality.

Enjoy settling for less for yourself, but I wont let your voice, or lack thereof, speak for me. And I might add: When an entire generation is graduating with degrees they paid an insane amount for, because as CHILDREN they were told it works this way, and they graduate to find they just paid 80 fucking thousand dollars for a piece of paper that means nothing because there are no jobs to be found because money has been sequestered out of circulation because there's no fucking middle class to circulate the money anymore....well. They have a right to be pissed. And to actively change a bullshit system that caters to those in charge and those financially backing those in charge.

The oversimplification of all of this and the rhetoric regurgitated like it's so much fact with so much weight is asinine to me.

[Chreees]

I've given up and am just waiting for the end... There's nothing we the American people can do to save this country. The power of the government which is owned by corporations is too strong and will never change and face away from greed. While I appreciate the people occupying, I'd rather just enjoy the rest of my time in this country while I've got it. Then when I see shit really going down, I'm going to gtfo as quickly as possible. I hate that I feel this way, but I feel that my time is better spent focusing on making money to afford my wedding, and finishing school. They're ignoring the occupiers, so they would just ignore me too. I have my future to think of, so that is what I'm going to focus on, instead of spending my time occupying somewhere and being ignored.. I realize I will most likely move away from this country at the breaking point, because it's too far in the deep end now for any of us to do anything. Thank the gov, corporations, and Supreme Court for allowing it to get to this point. Occupiers- Keep up the good work, if you can afford it. I know I can't, so I thank you for trying to make a difference for me.

[angekfire]

[quote name='Giant Ninja Robot' timestamp='1319633115' post='528914']
Enjoy settling for less for yourself, but I wont let your voice, or lack thereof, speak for me. And I might add: When an entire generation is graduating with degrees they paid an insane amount for, because as CHILDREN they were told it works this way, and they graduate to find they just paid 80 fucking thousand dollars for a piece of paper that means nothing because there are no jobs to be found because money has been sequestered out of circulation because there's no fucking middle class to circulate the money anymore....well. They have a right to be pissed. And to actively change a bullshit system that caters to those in charge and those financially backing those in charge.[/quote]

You are also told as CHILDREN that Santa Clause and the tooth fairy exist. Depending on how you were raised, if you were raised religious, to may have also been raised to believe that Jesus Christ is our lord and saviour, or that Allah dictates X and X. When you make the decision to go to school, it needs to be an educated one, and one you view as an adult. You need to take a serious look at the cost/benefit of going to post secondary and taking something that WILL land you a job, as opposed to just taking something because as a child you were told that is how things work. As a child I was told a fat man comes down my chimney once a year to deliver presents if I am good. I was told if I lose a tooth and leave it under my pillow I will receive money. That doesn't make it true. Likewise, being told as a child that post-secondary is what everyone must do is a load of crap too.

It is up to us as individuals to do the research into the job we want BEFORE you drop down 80 grand in hopes of a great job when you get out. We have to take accountability for ourselves and our actions. If you can't afford to go to post secondary, then maybe you should be doing what you can afford instead of taking out loans that you cannot afford under the false pretenses that you will have an amazing 6 figure job just by investing 80 grand and 5 years of your life. If my parents told me that giving 80 grand to someone now would allow me to collect 200k a year for the rest of my life, starting in 5 years from now, I would be a little skepticle. I would do my research into where the money would go and how it would convert into this money. And if everyone getting degrees in things that make them unemployable did the research themselves in advance, maybe they would have made a different choice instead of taking what their parents said at face value. Maybe instead of a degree in art history and working at starbucks or being unemployed, they would have went into medicine and become a doctor. Maybe they would have gone into a field that is actually in demand. Maybe go into a trade and get an apprenticeship.

An investment of x thousand dollars and X years doesn't entitle you to shit.

[Venger]

[quote name='angekfire' timestamp='1319638775' post='528926']
[quote name='Giant Ninja Robot' timestamp='1319633115' post='528914']
Enjoy settling for less for yourself, but I wont let your voice, or lack thereof, speak for me. And I might add: When an entire generation is graduating with degrees they paid an insane amount for, because as CHILDREN they were told it works this way, and they graduate to find they just paid 80 fucking thousand dollars for a piece of paper that means nothing because there are no jobs to be found because money has been sequestered out of circulation because there's no fucking middle class to circulate the money anymore....well. They have a right to be pissed. And to actively change a bullshit system that caters to those in charge and those financially backing those in charge.[/quote]

You are also told as CHILDREN that Santa Clause and the tooth fairy exist. Depending on how you were raised, if you were raised religious, to may have also been raised to believe that Jesus Christ is our lord and saviour, or that Allah dictates X and X. When you make the decision to go to school, it needs to be an educated one, and one you view as an adult. You need to take a serious look at the cost/benefit of going to post secondary and taking something that WILL land you a job, as opposed to just taking something because as a child you were told that is how things work. As a child I was told a fat man comes down my chimney once a year to deliver presents if I am good. I was told if I lose a tooth and leave it under my pillow I will receive money. That doesn't make it true. Likewise, being told as a child that post-secondary is what everyone must do is a load of crap too.

It is up to us as individuals to do the research into the job we want BEFORE you drop down 80 grand in hopes of a great job when you get out. We have to take accountability for ourselves and our actions. If you can't afford to go to post secondary, then maybe you should be doing what you can afford instead of taking out loans that you cannot afford under the false pretenses that you will have an amazing 6 figure job just by investing 80 grand and 5 years of your life. If my parents told me that giving 80 grand to someone now would allow me to collect 200k a year for the rest of my life, starting in 5 years from now, I would be a little skepticle. I would do my research into where the money would go and how it would convert into this money. And if everyone getting degrees in things that make them unemployable did the research themselves in advance, maybe they would have made a different choice instead of taking what their parents said at face value. Maybe instead of a degree in art history and working at starbucks or being unemployed, they would have went into medicine and become a doctor. Maybe they would have gone into a field that is actually in demand. Maybe go into a trade and get an apprenticeship.

An investment of x thousand dollars and X years doesn't entitle you to shit.
[/quote]
And that is exactly it. My son is 18 years old and graduated from high school last june. We talked about what college he wanted to go to and what he was planning to do for the rest of his life. He said "i dunno" well at that point I said then my son college is not for you right now. So he got himself a job and is living with us for now. The return on investment just isn't there.He can go into debt for the next 10 years or start earning now. School will always be there when he picks a direction and as long he contributes to the family he is welcome to stay with us.
Ray

[Giant Ninja Robot]

And in the meanwhile we all work jobs that do no real service to the populace other than feeding the machine, our own happiness be damned. Wouldn't the world work way more efficiently if people went into a field they desired and were able to be financially solvent doing what they enjoyed and were good at? That's the premise we were sold on.

There's a huge glaring issue with the Santa Claus analogy. SANTA CLAUS WAS NEVER REAL. But once upon a time, in the not so distant past, the way we were told things work? WORKED. And you can't honestly expect a child to be able to make reasonably weighed decisions about their future in an adult manner while they're still children can you? That goes against the very seperation of childhood and adulthood. Personally I think we force kids to grow up WAY too fast to rush them into an adult world they are oft ill prepared for, and expecting a child to be an adult just makes no sense whatsoever. Maturity comes with time and experience. In the past people could afford to go to school, sort out their major there, knowing that most fields they went into would yield a beneficial career. Not so anymore. It was a bait and switch. Not a Santa Claus myth.

[Giant Ninja Robot]

And maybe the arts have more of a place and benefit in society than we give credit to. It's shortsighted to follow that line of thought. Do billions of people watch movies? Listen to music? Read books? Admire paintings? Clearly there is value to the arts that is not respected by the likes of society, there is benefit reaped but little respect paid to those who do it.

And do we really need any more doctors who got into it primarily for the financial security, as opposed to those who desire to heal people?

[angekfire]

[quote name='Giant Ninja Robot' timestamp='1319641376' post='528937']
And in the meanwhile we all work jobs that do no real service to the populace other than feeding the machine, our own happiness be damned. Wouldn't the world work way more efficiently if people went into a field they desired and were able to be financially solvent doing what they enjoyed and were good at? That's the premise we were sold on.[/quote]

And how many people actually do that? I know plenty of people who grew up with that view and have been working at a job they hate their whole life. If I love playing video games and eating cheetos, should I be able to have lucrative career as a game tester or a cheeto taster? Should I be able to make a decent living doing that?

I am all for happiness, I am all for spreading the wealth a bit more evenly, but for every middle class joe (myself included in this demographic) working their ass off and paying taxes, there is another person leeching on social assistance. The government is catering to the upper class, and trying to satisfy the lower class, while ignoring the middle class who is left carrying all the weight. Yes, this is wrong, yes I am all for this movement, but you have to take accountability for your own decision, because they have consequences. I am not all for the government simply forgiving all student debt, that is absurd. You took on the debt yourself, nobody held a gun to your head, it is your responsibility to pay that back. If you took on 80 thousand dollars of debt without doing the research on the employability of your degree when you got out, that is your own fault, you signed for that student loan knowing you would have to pay it back. Yes, I feel bad if you got into a field that was big when you entered school but crashed in the last year or 2. That wasn't a forseen circumstance and I do feel bad, it wasn't your fault. But for the people who go into fields which haven't had good job prospects for years, it is your own fault. If you took philisophy or art history, those fields haven't exactly been lucrative in a very long time. Sure, in the current climate maybe be a little more lenient and freeze interest rates for those unemployed or something, but governments flat out CANNOT afford to just erase all student debt. The system does not run on fairy dust.

[quote name='Giant Ninja Robot' timestamp='1319641376' post='528937']
There's a huge glaring issue with the Santa Claus analogy. SANTA CLAUS WAS NEVER REAL. But once upon a time, in the not so distant past, the way we were told things work? WORKED. And you can't honestly expect a child to be able to make reasonably weighed decisions about their future in an adult manner while they're still children can you? That goes against the very seperation of childhood and adulthood. Personally I think we force kids to grow up WAY too fast to rush them into an adult world they are oft ill prepared for, and expecting a child to be an adult just makes no sense whatsoever. Maturity comes with time and experience. In the past people could afford to go to school, sort out there major there, knowing that most fields they went into would yield a beneficial career. Not so anymore. It was a bait and switch. Not a Santa Claus myth.
[/quote]

And times change, it is a person's responsiblity to adapt to these changes. At one point we also didn't have automobiles, was that a bait & switch on equestrian trainers who once had some amazing career for life?

Things change, and as you grow up, you should quickly realize your parents do not hold all the answers. You need to be able to think for yourself, and you need to think about the employability of whatever you choose to go into, if you choose to do post secondary. It is not:
1) Go to university.
2) ???
3) Profit.

Like Ray's example, my parents discussed post secondary with me when I graduated high school. They asked what I wanted to do. I didn't know. I took a year to figure that out. Then I figured it out and went to college. When I graduated most of my class couldn't find work, and this was a program that was supposed to make us employable pretty much anywhere. I have a job. It is not the job I had imagined, but it is a job and is partially related to my education. The job market in my city for my field is not the best. I would need to relocate to have a hope of finding something more in line with what I had imagined. Is it the system's fault for it? No. I should have looked into what kind of real prospects were out there, not what the college told me was out there. I am not going to blame the system, the responsiblity was mine, and I am going to take accountability for it.

You are right though, you cannot expect children to make adult decisions. Which is why it is their responsibility to wait and make the right decision instead of rushing and making an uneducated one because "all the COOL kids are going to post secondary", or because "My dad said I need a university diploma to get a job, so I took philosophy because it is something I like". You cannot blame the system for rushing children to make these life changing decisions which require a substantial financial and time investment. If it is mommy and daddy telling you to go to university for whatever you like, that is not the system that failed, that is mommy and daddy who failed at being educated about how the world has changed since their mommy and daddy told them that.

[Venger]

[quote name='Giant Ninja Robot' timestamp='1319641539' post='528938']
And maybe the arts have more of a place and benefit in society than we give credit to. It's shortsighted to follow that line of thought. Do billions of people watch movies? Listen to music? Read books? Admire paintings? Clearly there is value to the arts that is not respected by the likes of society, there is benefit reaped but little respect paid to those who do it.

And do we really need any more doctors who got into it primarily for the financial security, as opposed to those who desire to heal people?
[/quote]
I completely agree with this as well. I support the arts,go to museums,art galleries,plays,movies,and read books. But it is my choice to do these things not because the government is making me. In the past artist had patrons. churches and the community took care of people less fortunate with out government assistance. We have been robbed of the great feeling that comes from helping others,not by corporations (who btw are our employers for the most part) but by a government that mandates that part of my hard earned salary shall be taken from me and be redistributed.I want my son to be happy and successful but the world needs ditch diggers too.If every person who thinks somebody owes them something because they have more than you, spent a week in the woods in full servival mode (no food,water,or shelter unless you gather,hunt or fish for it) then people would see exactly what good corporations are for.
Ray

[angekfire]

[quote name='Giant Ninja Robot' timestamp='1319641539' post='528938']
And maybe the arts have more of a place and benefit in society than we give credit to. It's shortsighted to follow that line of thought. Do billions of people watch movies? Listen to music? Read books? Admire paintings? Clearly there is value to the arts that is not respected by the likes of society, there is benefit reaped but little respect paid to those who do it.

And do we really need any more doctors who got into it primarily for the financial security, as opposed to those who desire to heal people?
[/quote]

The thing about art is it is subjective. People may love your work, people may hate your work, people may be indifferent towards your work. Yes, the arts have a place in society, and it is an important place. The reality is that there is an overabundance of various artists, and the market is fairly limited. Making a film requires funding, and you aren't going to get the funding unless you can beat out the other 10,000 scripts they have had to read this month. For every Steven Spielberg you have a Uwe Bol. If you took one of the arts because it is your passion, then good for you, university helped you improve yourself and get better at something you love. But the arts is the last place to look if you want a job fresh out of school with some stability, unless the job you want is making people coffee.

You cannot expect to take whatever program, spend thousands of dollars doing it, and have a 6 figure job when you are done. It isn't a reasonable expectation. I have a friend who took philosophy. The guy is incredible to converse and debate with, but he works retail now because quite frankly, there aren't a ton of jobs that have the requirement of a philosophy major. And its not like he graduated in the last year or 2. He has been out of college for probably closer to 10 years.

And you know what? Would you rather have a doctor who dislikes what he does, but is there to treat you when you get sick or injured, or would you rather not have a doctor there at all, and have to wait 12 hours to finally get treated by a guy who loves what he does?

[atalanta]

This post started to read like a curriculum vitae, too long winded. So here's a summary: Went to college, paid my way and got a technical degree (not some BS womyn's studies). Got a job right out of college. Saved some money got a house. Got laid off. Got foreclosed (and since there weren't all the - "oh you poor baby let us help you keep your house" BS, the bank took it. I have NO sympathy for the idiots who bought McMansions during the "boom" and now can't pay. I did it the right way and still lost). Got a new job. Still lost house. Now I rent. Job went downhill, quit after finding a better job. Got laid off. Hired back less than a month later for different position and much less pay. Just got a new job, decent pay but have more bills with commute and pay my own health insurance (that last bit is kind'a freeing and I thank a "bar friend" for telling us what to say to go from job insurance to self insurance).

Yeah, I think the "occupy" movement should probably occupy congress because those are the people passing stupid spending bills because the people with money tell them what to do. I resent that they shoot down tax hikes for the rich - guess what the rich people have fancy lawers and accountants to find all the loopholes so I don't know why they're complaining about tax hikes, they're still going to pay a smaller percentage of their income than you and me.

I can go on and rant some more, but I won't. Should probably not even post this, but I will.