Limits Of Religious Accomidation

[TheScotsman]

Recently in NY state it's become an issue of religious accommodation vs law, and citizen's rights.

More specifically, one city clerk who finds the issue of licensing marriages for same-sex couples to be against her religion, and she is unable to process them for that reason. Others in the office are able to handle them, but she refuses on religious grounds. She has to step down, or get canned for not doing everything her job requires.

The quandary seems to be is her religious belief being trampled by a state making a law regulating religion, and a job requiring her to violate her beliefs, or is the law allowing gays to marry, and their right to do so more important? How do you accommodate both in an environment where one side seems to look for any reason to make a fuss out of anything they can.

If it's one or the other, which would one choose? Seemingly, the Constitution protects one specifically, and infers a protection to the other as equal protection under the law.

I myself would not handle licensing same-sex marriage on spiritual grounds, but completely don't give a damn what anyone else wants to do with their.... er.... body parts. When their choices impact any aspect of my life, they loose, and I will do every legally possible step to make their life hell. I find I can easily accommodate others beliefs if left to my own, but will fight every inch of the way if "required" to, or find the other side trying to push their beliefs into my life.

[Chreees]

That city clerk should be fired if she's not willing to fulfill the duties of her job. I'm sure there's plenty of other people out there that'd love to have her job.

The problem is people aren't accepting of others' beliefs and lifestyles. I believe Christians are the worst about it. That fades over into our politics way too much and I don't think it'll ever stop.

[vendetta_revived]

She should either do her job or get sacked, as simple as that.

She can keep her religious beliefs all she want, but it should not affect the job she has been given to do. If I was a muslim by religion and a butcher by profession, I would NOT work in a place where I am required to handle pork. I wouldn't chose the route to work there and then whine about people trying to force their beliefs on me.

[IainUM]

i agree with chris. she has a job and it is her decision to not fulfill her duties. sure, the lady may be religiously against the idea, but by being that clerk she is representing the government, which ok'd gay marriage.

[atalanta]

Being a chick, this whole "I object on religious grounds" really gets my ire because it got publicized when "EC" pharmacists wouldn't fill certain prescriptions. But would gladly fill certain others.

I have no problem with someone refusing on "religious" grounds, but there had better be someone else there who is willing to the job so that "your" objections don't interfere. If you're the only person there, then go ahead and voice an objection but then you better do your job or don't be surprised when you get fired. Because if you're going to claim "morally opposed" to one thing, what says you won't be opposed to something else? Today you won't file a marriage license because you don't "approve" of gays getting married. Tomorrow you won't file a hunting license because you don't "approve" of murdering Bambi.

This religion/law came up when the NY law was being passed. Basically Gov. Cuomo said: "Do your job or find another." http://snipurl.com/17zvkw





EC= evangelical christian aka born again christain

[Stuie]

All depends when the duties where established.

If it's a new addition to her duties, do to the shift in policy..
1. If she agreed to do them in writing.... she quits or gets fired.
2. She never agreed to the new duties... City is stuck they can't do anything. (Lawyers Credo: If it's not in writing, it didn't happen)

If it's always been there when she took the job. She quits or gets fired.

[cotsi95]

Seriously stupid. She should be fired, do your job or find another one. If you are opposed to something that will come up in your job often then find a new job simply as that. In all honesty is fucking paper work. It's not like shes the one marrying them, shes not being told to be the flower girl for christ sake. People often take the "high ground" morally and it REALLY pisses me off.

[Chreees]

Brooke has a girl in her class who is Muslim and wears a head scarf everyday. Well, a few weeks in, the teacher told the girl, "Oh my god, you're the girl who always checks me out at Hobby Lobby! I didn't recognize you without your head scarf!" And she replied, "Yeah, they don't let me wear it..."

Sounds like this chick needs to do the same...

[cotsi95]

[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1317329923' post='525658']
Brooke has a girl in her class who is Muslim and wears a head scarf everyday. Well, a few weeks in, the teacher told the girl, "Oh my god, you're the girl who always checks me out at Hobby Lobby! I didn't recognize you without your head scarf!" And she replied, "Yeah, they don't let me wear it..."

Sounds like this chick needs to do the same...
[/quote]

This is completely different imo, she should be allowed to wear it at work, what does it harm? Does it effect how she will check people out? NO. total bullshit. If it doesn't effect you doing your job you should be able to do it.

[judgeposer]

At least legally speaking, I believe it might be too early to render an opinion given the facts we have. New York's Marriage Equality Act bars denying an application for marriage license to any couple seeking to wed, which obviously includes same-sex couples. That does not seem to be the case with Belforti, the Ledyard, NY town clerk who has refused to grant applications herself to same-sex couples. Belforti has instead designated her deputy to do so because she, Belforti, objects to doing so on moral, sincerely held religious grounds. The couple in this case appeared at the clerk's office at a date/time when Belforti's deputy was not there, leaving Belforti to refuse herself, but directing the couple to come back later. Although refusing herself to do it, Belforti did not issue an outright refusal to the couple.

Compounding the issue is New York human rights law, which, by the way, predates the Marriage Equality Act. That body of law, among other things, protects an employee’s sincerely held religious beliefs unless those beliefs create an undue hardship on the employer. Moreover, state law also allows a municipality to delegate duties regarding marriage licenses to deputies or other employees, which was done in this case. Again, Belforti assigned the duty to grant applications to same-sex couples to someone else who has competent authority under the law.

NYT: [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/nyregion/rights-clash-as-town-clerk-rejects-her-role-in-gay-marriages.html?_r=1"]Rights Collide as Town Clerk Sidesteps Role in Gay Marriages[/url] Edited September 29, 2011 by judgeposer

[Chreees]

[quote name='cotsi95' timestamp='1317335687' post='525666']
[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1317329923' post='525658']
Brooke has a girl in her class who is Muslim and wears a head scarf everyday. Well, a few weeks in, the teacher told the girl, "Oh my god, you're the girl who always checks me out at Hobby Lobby! I didn't recognize you without your head scarf!" And she replied, "Yeah, they don't let me wear it..."

Sounds like this chick needs to do the same...
[/quote]

This is completely different imo, she should be allowed to wear it at work, what does it harm? Does it effect how she will check people out? NO. total bullshit. If it doesn't effect you doing your job you should be able to do it.
[/quote]

My only point was that if you want to have a job, sometimes you have to do things you normally wouldn't do because it goes against your beliefs.

[Rani]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1317323111' post='525622']
All depends when the duties where established.

If it's a new addition to her duties, do to the shift in policy..
1. If she agreed to do them in writing.... she quits or gets fired.
2. She never agreed to the new duties... City is stuck they can't do anything. (Lawyers Credo: If it's not in writing, it didn't happen)

If it's always been there when she took the job. She quits or gets fired.
[/quote]


Trust me it's in writing. Every single employee manual and offer has the fine print at the bottom: "...and other duties as may be assigned.".

'Rani

[Rani]

Now.... What will probably come into play, is that the moment you are being paid for something, ie, a job, the rules generally shift. You are being paid for a task not of your choice. You're being paid for the task, not the right or wrong of that task. And seriously, really, we work because we get paid for our work. I had a boss who's standard answer to a complaining employee was: "You know I pay you for this shit, right?" I'm not a lawyer but a friend of mine who is says the exchange of payment changes things. Not sure how or the details of how it applies in the letter of the law, but it does make sense to me. She was not being paid for her decisions. She was being paid to perform a function or task within her job description to issue licenses in accordance with the law, therefore she has no grounds to refuse to perform the task.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

The Judge is right IMNHO, it would seem the state and federal law would protect this clerk, just as it protects the Muslim who won't ring up pork, or dog food at the local market, or the Muslim working in a book store that refuses to sell a christian bible. Incidentally, it's not just the crazy bible thumpers that refuse to process prescriptions, but also Muslims that refuse to sell non-bovine insulin, pork gelatin capsules, and BC to unwed women.

What nutter would go apply for a job that violates their beliefs, then get pissed it violates their beliefs? That person is a complete idiot. In this lady's case the job changed, that wasn't her fault by any stretch. To her honor, she stepped aside to keep her moral beliefs-I highly respect that. Some things are just better left to someone else.

I guess to sum it up...
If you are Amish, don't apply to be a flight engineer - the big orange triangle keeps falling off the back of the airplane!