You Have Got To Be Shitting Me...

[Tyler]

O.K. I am religious and I am not ashamed of it but this really just made me want to punch a baby seal....

[url="http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/24/alabama-town-gives-offenders-a-choice-jesus-or-jail/"]http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/24/alabama-town-gives-offenders-a-choice-jesus-or-jail/[/url]

[vendetta_revived]

The title of this thread sums it up pretty darn nicely!

[Stuie]

So you don't like alternative punishment?

It never specifies Religion just church, which encompasses all faiths. Be it Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Judaism, or some other religion or denomination.

I don't see the issue... yeah yeah church in state.. But this follows the letter of the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" They aren't being asked to attend the Church of USA.

[Hellz]

I wouldnt shit you, You're my favorite turd

[MichaelLCP]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1317321873' post='525618']
So you don't like alternative punishment?

It never specifies Religion just church, which encompasses all faiths. Be it Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Judaism, or some other religion or denomination.

I don't see the issue... yeah yeah church in state.. But this follows the letter of the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" They aren't being asked to attend the Church of USA.
[/quote]
Agreed. It's not like they are forcing you onto a certain religion. You wouldn't rather go to church for a year then be in prison?

[atalanta]

Ah, but they are expected to report to a PASTOR at CHURCH on SUNDAY. And I doubt there are synagogues, mosques, temples, etc in that town. So in a way they are forcing a particular religion - repent or face jail time.

Me, I'd take church. It would give me a dedicated hour a week to sit and read.

[Venger]

Better this than Iran telling a pastor "renounce your faith in God or be executed"
At least these guys get jail as their other option.

[Stuie]

Yall are getting mad at an alternative choice... let's flip it another way.

I get a Speeding ticket for 95 in a 70.
Original Punishment: $500 Fine

New law allows me to volunteer 50 hours in a trauma ward instead of the fine and totally screwing with my insurance.

I am a wuss and would pick Fine every time. I am not being forced to, I am given an alternative option.

[Chreees]

I don't see the big deal I guess? You can still just go to jail like you'd normally have to... Not forcing you to go to church instead.

But who the hell would choose jail...

[vendetta_revived]

The deal is that the court could have given an option to do some sort of community service instead of the church thing. You know, making those people do something constructive for the society.

What's the sense in sending them to church?

[Chreees]

Oh yeah, I can agree with that, definitely. Community service would be much more beneficial.

I think they're maybe doing this to free up the jails...

[jorlyfish]

To me, its the issue of saying that church will prevent you from further crime -- not that jail necessarily is doing a great job of it either -- but that if you "find Jesus" you won't keep doing your non-violent (which is likely to be drug-related if you're looking at jail time) crimes. Even this article is making a comparison between short rehab programs and church attendance, hoping the latter will work better.
But like Chris said, who's going to choose jail? Even I know I would agree to go to church once a week even though it's not part of my life at all now (I'm an agnostic atheist) over spending time in jail.

[lucky13]

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1317321039' post='525613']
O.K. I am religious and I am not ashamed of it but this really just made me want to punch a baby seal....

[url="http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/24/alabama-town-gives-offenders-a-choice-jesus-or-jail/"]http://newsfeed.time...-jesus-or-jail/[/url]
[/quote]

all i gotta say to that is wow!.... what is it christian communism XD "believe it!!" or they will give you the death penalty!... cuz thats what jesus wants... people to be forced into believe in him...that is a fail... as a christian.. IMO that is a big fail

[Hellz]

It's a way to get these godless heathens to find god and stop thier treacherous ways. I fully support jail, But only if it has cable TV.

[lucky13]

[quote name='Hellz' timestamp='1317342370' post='525713']
It's a way to get these godless heathens to find god and stop thier treacherous ways. I fully support jail, But only if it has cable TV.
[/quote]


XD cable f*ck that give me some satellite i want all 200 discovery owned channels XDD

[Hellz]

I dont care, as long as I can watch my weekly NCIS episodes. And the massive amounts of re-runs played on other channels

OR - the alternative to really screw these guys. have a TV installed in the cells, have nothing in there but a bible, and have the TV protected where they cant get to it and have the religious christian channel on 24/7

WHOS LAUGHING NOW?!

[lucky13]

[quote name='Hellz' timestamp='1317342621' post='525718']
I dont care, as long as I can watch my weekly NCIS episodes. And the massive amounts of re-runs played on other channels

OR - the alternative to really screw these guys. have a TV installed in the cells, have nothing in there but a bible, and have the TV protected where they cant get to it and have the religious christian channel on 24/7

WHOS LAUGHING NOW?!
[/quote]


XD id cry

[Fusion]

Non-violent offenders who are most likely being jailed for things like drinking and drugs could probably see a lot more benefit and "rehabilitation" from having to attend service with a religious community ever week for a year, rather than a 30 day program or a stay in county jail that costs the city and state a lot of money paid by taxpayers. Either way the savings is clear as far as taxpayers dollars are concerned.

I'm not quite seeing the downside. Even in the case of separation of church and state, this alternative punishment is optional, not mandatory.

[Fusion]

[quote name='jorlyfish' timestamp='1317340178' post='525699']
To me, its the issue of saying that church will prevent you from further crime -- not that jail necessarily is doing a great job of it either -- but that if you "find Jesus" you won't keep doing your non-violent (which is likely to be drug-related if you're looking at jail time) crimes. Even this article is making a comparison between short rehab programs and church attendance, hoping the latter will work better.
But like Chris said, who's going to choose jail? Even I know I would agree to go to church once a week even though it's not part of my life at all now (I'm an agnostic atheist) over spending time in jail.
[/quote]
On the other hand, I agree and can relate to this post since we both have the same religious ideology. I would also take the option to attend religious service, but in the end whether or not I'd be "rehabilitated" would come down to me feeling guilty and sincere about not making the same mistake again. That's really what it comes down to in anybody's case, and the big flaw here would be the people abusing the system.

Even if the person isn't serious about the rehabilitation, as long as the religious community that agrees with law enforcement to work with them to not make this alternative punishment a mockery, that's all that would matter. I feel like even if law enforcement was shortsighted about following through with the progress, the priest/imam/rabbi/etc would probably be a lot more invested in their role and that's who's really working to rehabilitate the offender anyways. Edited September 30, 2011 by Fusion

[DrSmokes]

Why is it to find Jesus and not God? The Jews do not believe Jesus was the mosiah...

[Tyler]

My issue with it is that there are nothing but Baptist churches in the town, one methodist church, and one lutherin...the rest are baptist. What if a Muslim wanted to go to a mosque, or a jew to synagogue? What about atheists? If they're going to be subjected to religious thought then let them choose which kind. Personally I think we treat prisoners too well, sure rehabilitation is good and all, but they fucked up and broke the law in the country they chose to live in. Deal with the punishment. We need to stop taking it so easy on the small cases because if the punishment for doing something petty is church, then whats the mental block going to be to going to the next level?

[TheScotsman]

I'm not seeing the problem at all. Hell if they don't like it, they can sit in ye olde gaol. It's not a forced attendance in any way.

[littlec]

I don't see all the reason for the outrage? If this article was about sending them to a mosque or whatnot I doubt this would have been posted here in the first place. People always seem to be up in arms about Christianity yet if it's another religion they choose to respectfully disagree or say nothing at all. In a nation where your freedom of choice is being taken bit by bit everyday why would you be outraged at more choices in freedom? I just don't get it....

[Dr. B]

The problem lies with a judge being able to suggest that services are either a punishment for crime or a conscription in any sense.

[judgeposer]

With respect to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," government action is deemed [i]unconstitutional[/i] if it any of the following three prongs of the [i]Lemon Test[/i] (per [i]Lemon v. Kurtzman[/i], 403 U.S. 602 (1971)) is violated:[list=1]
[*]The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
[*]The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
[*]The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
[/list]
Any legal analysis even charitable to the town's "Restore Our Community" initiative would find that the initiative violates each prong of this test.

The Constitution isn't applied simply through adapting facts of a case to Constitutional provisions; rather, Courts employ "tests" to determine whether and to what extent Government action runs afoul of the Constitution. The Lemon test is the currently used test that determines whether government action violates the Establishment Clause.

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1317323996' post='525631']
Yall are getting mad at an alternative choice... let's flip it another way.

I get a Speeding ticket for 95 in a 70.
Original Punishment: $500 Fine

New law allows me to volunteer 50 hours in a trauma ward instead of the fine and totally screwing with my insurance.

I am a wuss and would pick Fine every time. I am not being forced to, I am given an alternative option.
[/quote]

The "problem" is not simply not being receptive to alternative punishments, it's that in this case, the alternative forces a choice between incarceration and conscripted religious practice.

[quote name='Fusion ' timestamp='1317350692' post='525750']
Non-violent offenders who are most likely being jailed for things like drinking and drugs could probably see a lot more benefit and "rehabilitation" from having to attend service with a religious community ever week for a year, rather than a 30 day program or a stay in county jail that costs the city and state a lot of money paid by taxpayers. Either way the savings is clear as far as taxpayers dollars are concerned.

I'm not quite seeing the downside. Even in the case of separation of church and state, this alternative punishment is optional, not mandatory.
[/quote]

The downside is the suggestion that rehabilitation can only be had at the hand of religious influence, which we know not to be the case.

[quote name='Tyler' timestamp='1317359293' post='525772']
My issue with it is that there are nothing but Baptist churches in the town, one methodist church, and one lutherin...the rest are baptist. What if a Muslim wanted to go to a mosque, or a jew to synagogue? What about atheists? If they're going to be subjected to religious thought then let them choose which kind. Personally I think we treat prisoners too well, sure rehabilitation is good and all, but they fucked up and broke the law in the country they chose to live in. Deal with the punishment. We need to stop taking it so easy on the small cases because if the punishment for doing something petty is church, then whats the mental block going to be to going to the next level?
[/quote]

Although I don't come down on punishment as hard, I think you make a great practical point about diversity of belief, or the lack thereof most probably in this community and through this specific program.