California Prop. 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

[Rani]

I'm practically dancing in my chair right now. The 9th Circuit Court has ruled that Proposition 8 which passed by a narrow margin thanks to the media blitz by the religious right wing, has been struck down by the appeals court. For anyone who doesn't know, Proposition 8 essentially banned gay marriage within the State of California. Those on both sides have sworn to take this to the US Supreme Court which is where proponents of gay marriage have been trying to get for the past couple decades.

I don't see this as a gay issue. I see this as a human rights issues. Civil unions do NOT offer equal rights and responsibilities under the law as marriage does and we know historically "separate but equal" is never equal. In California there are 12 differences between a legal civil union and a marriage. And I firmly believe the rights of same gender couples are being abridged because of it.

Finally this is almost certainly going to make it to SCOTUS, and I think there's hope that same gender marriage will in the not too distant future be allowed in every state. Maybe we should be thanking our religious nut jobs out here from bringing this about!

There's a celebratory glass of wine in my future tonight!

'Rani

[DrSmokes]

Good stuff! I have my own opinions on these whole situations but I know I would offend people But just know, I'm not against gay marriage or gays in general....it's the religious nut freaks I would be offending with my historical statements and reasoning behind their mythical bible (ooops, already said too much).

[MichaelLCP]

[quote name='DrSmokes' timestamp='1328648271' post='538137']
Good stuff! I have my own opinions on these whole situations but I know I would offend people But just know, I'm not against gay marriage or gays in general....it's the religious nut freaks I would be offending with my historical statements and reasoning behind their [b]mythical bible[/b] (ooops, already said too much).
[/quote]

Was this really necessary? Honestly.


On topic though. I'm glad this is moving in the right direction. We are one step closer to equality.

[gramps]

Don't be so quick to label all religious groups. The church I attended back in the '90s had several gay couples as members. Everybody knew it and nobody thought twice about it. They were just part of the family. Think about it - that's a Christian church in very conservative Alabama.

The ones you have to be leery of are the extreme fundamentalists, and they're not as common as one might think.
Even other Christians have their doubts about them.

[joytron]

[img]http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/swoggiemaster/405840_3020617868005_1039411946_3247597_121371850_n.jpg[/img]

[SAMUEL L. JACKSON]

I LOVE GAY PEOPLE! POLITICIANS SHOULD LET THEM DO WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT!

[Rani]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1328654890' post='538152']
Don't be so quick to label all religious groups. The church I attended back in the '90s had several gay couples as members. Everybody knew it and nobody thought twice about it. They were just part of the family. Think about it - that's a Christian church in very conservative Alabama.

The ones you have to be leery of are the extreme fundamentalists, and they're not as common as one might think.
Even other Christians have their doubts about them.
[/quote]

The problem I have with almost all "organized" religion, is they think their way is the only way. Even if they're not rabidly trying to convert you, they feel sorry for you because you're going to hell even though though they'll admit you have the free will to go to hell. The presumption to know the mind of God amazes me. Nobody has bothered to give God credit for making homosexuality part of the grand plan, you know, like in population reduction. That's when it seems to occur in other species. The anti-gay focus is almost entirely religion driven. Personally I think they're going to have a lot of explaining to do on "Judgement Day."

'Rani

[gramps]

The problem with most religion is that it's based on what men say what God says. The minute somebody says that "God says this" or God says that", my BS detector goes off. Why should I believe another human being? How does one tell if the messages are from God or just somebody on a power trip giving you a load of BS?

The answer is the message itself. If God is love, then there can be no hate in any word from God. The God I believe in wouldn't have any objection to gays.

Yes, the God of the Old Testament was vengeful and horrific. But was He really? Or was it our understanding that was wrong? Maybe people followed the wrong leaders - that's happened over and over again in history. The world back then was a violent place that produced violent men who did violent things. As civilization has evolved so has our understanding. We're better than we were, but we're not perfect yet. We have a LOT more in common than we have differences, and they are indeed small differences.

One of the main reasons I've turned away from mainstream Christianity is the "rabidly trying to convert you" attitude they have. It ain't about numbers, folks. I'd rather my life be witness to what I believe, to live in such a way that others come to me to ask what I believe. Then I'd advise them to sit down and think about it, and count the cost. It's a little more involved than the mainstream would have you think. And it's not easy.

[IainUM]

i just hate when people say "well it says not to do that in the bible" and such. there are many things people do that aren't in the bible. premarital sex is something to be killed about, yet i would bet most of the people that say that gay marriage is against the bible have had premarital sex or done one of the numerous other things that the bible says is blasphemous

[ezxen]

why dose this stuff always come back to religion . You people make me feel sory for humanity instead of seeing a great moment for Human rights and equality all you can do is bitch about "ORGANIZED religion" this and "Fake god" that . Honestly it sounds retarted . Mr jackson is the only one who makes and fucking sense .


That is all.

P.S. Once Jesus came into the picture the old testimate pretty much became obsolite. its like your trying to tell me that i cant just remove a usb drive without ejecting because of write to cash on windows 95 when im running windows 7 . Stop trying to spout Bull shit that dose not even matter no more .


PPS do any of you without googling even know what book in the old testimate and between witch chapters most of the absurde laws of man even come from?
ppps deuteronomy get reading thers some really fun stuff in there and by no means is this for the religion is stupid people because there are some really messed up stuff in this book

[Rani]

[quote name='ezxen' timestamp='1328678248' post='538184']
why dose this stuff always come back to religion . You people make me feel sory for humanity instead of seeing a great moment for Human rights and equality all you can do is bitch about "ORGANIZED religion" this and "Fake god" that . Honestly it sounds retarted . Mr jackson is the only one who makes and fucking sense .


That is all.

P.S. Once Jesus came into the picture the old testimate pretty much became obsolite. its like your trying to tell me that i cant just remove a usb drive without ejecting because of write to cash on windows 95 when im running windows 7 . Stop trying to spout Bull shit that dose not even matter no more .


PPS do any of you without googling even know what book in the old testimate and between witch chapters most of the absurde laws of man even come from?
ppps deuteronomy get reading thers some really fun stuff in there and by no means is this for the religion is stupid people because there are some really messed up stuff in this book
[/quote]

Original Poster, meaning me has the right to say:

Religion DOES play a part of a great many things going on politically in our world right now and throughout history because people have a horrible tendency to use their religion as an excuse to bludgeon others with their prejudices, so it almost certainly has to be a part of any intelligent discussion on why minority rights (and at approximately 10% of the population, gay people ARE a minority) have been abridged. Secondly, the whole Old Testament is obsolete because Jesus showed up? The entire Jewish race, whose Torah is nearly identical to the Old Testament, and is in fact what the Old Testament is based on will, I'm sure, be relieved their entire faith is now obsolete. Makes that whole holocaust thing much more palatable. And lastly......

If you don't like the way the conversation goes, don't take part.

'Rani

[MichaelLCP]

So you being the original poster automatically makes your opinion right?

[Rani]

[quote name='MichaelLCP' timestamp='1328721533' post='538205']
So you being the original poster automatically makes your opinion right?
[/quote]

in my world? Yes. In yours, your opinion is the right one. That's the way it is in life. But you've been a member of this forum long enough to know that if someones doesn't like a topic or the direction of a thread, they're always invited to not take part. Tends to work better than attacking their point of view. Or claiming we've caused them to feel sorry for the human race. And the original poster is the one who pretty much decides whether a thread has truly been jacked or if the new point is a legitimate part of the discussion. And as OP, I agree religion has impact in this discussion.

'Rani

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='MichaelLCP' timestamp='1328721533' post='538205']
So you being the original poster automatically makes your opinion right?
[/quote]

I believe she said that being the original poster, she has the right to speak her mind.

[quote name='ezxen' timestamp='1328678248' post='538184']
why dose this stuff always come back to religion . You people make me feel sory for humanity instead of seeing a great moment for Human rights and equality all you can do is bitch about "ORGANIZED religion" this and "Fake god" that . Honestly it sounds retarted . Mr jackson is the only one who makes and fucking sense .


That is all.

P.S. [b]Once Jesus came into the picture the old testimate pretty much became obsolite.[/b] its like your trying to tell me that i cant just remove a usb drive without ejecting because of write to cash on windows 95 when im running windows 7 . Stop trying to spout Bull shit that dose not even matter no more .


PPS do any of you without googling even know what book in the old testimate and between witch chapters most of the absurde laws of man even come from?
ppps deuteronomy get reading thers some really fun stuff in there and by no means is this for the religion is stupid people because there are some really messed up stuff in this book
[/quote]

I am not Christian, so I could be wrong, but aren't the 10 commandments a part of the old testament?

[vendetta_revived]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1328659645' post='538164']
[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1328654890' post='538152']
Don't be so quick to label all religious groups. The church I attended back in the '90s had several gay couples as members. Everybody knew it and nobody thought twice about it. They were just part of the family. Think about it - that's a Christian church in very conservative Alabama.

The ones you have to be leery of are the extreme fundamentalists, and they're not as common as one might think.
Even other Christians have their doubts about them.
[/quote]

The problem I have with almost all "organized" religion, is they think their way is the only way. Even if they're not rabidly trying to convert you, they feel sorry for you because you're going to hell even though though they'll admit you have the free will to go to hell. The presumption to know the mind of God amazes me. Nobody has bothered to give God credit for making homosexuality part of the grand plan, you know, like in population reduction. That's when it seems to occur in other species. The anti-gay focus is almost entirely religion driven. Personally I think they're going to have a lot of explaining to do on "Judgement Day."

'Rani
[/quote]

That is pretty dead on. I've met Christians saying that they are taught to not hate anyone, so they mingle with everyone, but have no qualms about thinking, feeling sorry for, and sometimes, even ever so casually mentioning to other people how they are going to hell, with a straight face you wouldn't believe. Then they argue that you will go to hell, not because god hates you, but because he loves you, and wants to give you what you've been asking for.

Pfftt...On topic, it's progress. Don't know how people get the nerves to tell other people to live by their ideologies. Edited February 8, 2012 by vendetta_revived

[mushrat]

good luck there in Cali. I have friends here who are waiting with baited breath..and coctails.

[mushrat]

uumm.i just looked up and read some of the posts, do i need to read this whole thread and remind some folks about rule 1?

[gramps]

We have a rule at work - no discussing religion or politics at all. Things can turn bad in a hurry.

On this thread and topic, my bottom line is that I basically agree with Rani, that it's a human rights issue. I think we both hope when this goes before the Supreme Court the decision by the 9th Circuit Court is upheld.

[joytron]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1328739473' post='538267']
We have a rule at work - no discussing religion or politics at all. Things can turn bad in a hurry.

On this thread and topic, my bottom line is that I basically agree with Rani, that it's a human rights issue. I think we both hope when this goes before the Supreme Court the decision by the 9th Circuit Court is upheld.
[/quote]

See I think it goes beyond that, I think it is fundamentally a religious majority who is willing to go against the constitution to support their agenda.

[gramps]

We have no Constitution left.
Politicians of [i]every[/i] stripe have slowy, but surely, destroyed it.

[TheScotsman]

I don't have dog in this race, it makes no difference to me in any way, either way. I am looking forward to the TV adverts for LGBT divorce lawyers. Both sides glitter-bombing the opposing council, and deciding the court needs pink velour upholstery. Judge judy, move over!

I just have to point out the hipocracy of anyone that champions the rule of true democracy in one case, then turns around and cheers an activist court overriding the true democratic decision of the people.

Why is it that every time someone mentions religious opposition to gay marriage it comes to a Christian-bashing session, but no one ever mentions that Islamic nations are hanging anyone the think is gay from a crane jib, at a rather alarming rate.

[joytron]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1328767969' post='538350']
I don't have dog in this race, it makes no difference to me in any way, either way. I am looking forward to the TV adverts for LGBT divorce lawyers. Both sides glitter-bombing the opposing council, and deciding the court needs pink velour upholstery. Judge judy, move over!

I just have to point out the hipocracy of anyone that champions the rule of true democracy in one case, then turns around and cheers an activist court overriding the true democratic decision of the people.

Why is it that every time someone mentions religious opposition to gay marriage it comes to a Christian-bashing session, but no one ever mentions that Islamic nations are hanging anyone the think is gay from a crane jib, at a rather alarming rate.
[/quote]
Hypocritical, absolutely, but I dont think I ever claimed we lived in a truly democratic state and certainly think that having a court system based on upholding the constitution is preferable to tyranny of the majority.

As far as honor killings go, I am glad you pointed that out, and am thankful to live in a country that is not run by religious extremists. I do not really see how that effects how I feel as far as the subject at hand. The way other countries treat their minorities should not have any impact on the way we treat ours. A greater evil elsewhere does not lessen an injustice in America. By allowing gays equality we are certainly distancing ourselves from intolerance so prominent all over the world.

[mushrat]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1328742338' post='538287'] We have no Constitution left. Politicians of [i]every[/i] stripe have slowy, but surely, destroyed it. [/quote]
Spoken as only someone who has watched it happen can. Nothing personal but most of you have NO idea what the longer term effect has been of government on our civil rights and the constitution. I'm not as old as gramps but i have seen it slowing creeping in myself and its scary. I think this thread should perhaps stick to yay or nay for her topic or people should move on without comment.

[Rani]

[quote name='mushrat' timestamp='1328797812' post='538372']
[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1328742338' post='538287'] We have no Constitution left. Politicians of [i]every[/i] stripe have slowy, but surely, destroyed it. [/quote]
Spoken as only someone who has watched it happen can. Nothing personal but most of you have NO idea what the longer term effect has been of government on our civil rights and the constitution. I'm not as old as gramps but i have seen it slowing creeping in myself and its scary. I think this thread should perhaps stick to yay or nay for her topic or people should move on without comment.
[/quote]

Mmmm, I don't know about the yay or nay part Mush. I actually like conversations that move and evolve. It brings a different dynamic if everyone is willing to exchange thoughts, and often you start thinking of an issue in a different way because of that dynamic. I for one am interested in how everything from government, to religion, to personal hang-ups impact the issue. So if I have any say-so at all, I'm not offended if we twist the thread here and there, so long as none of us, including me, completely jack it off into left field.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='TheScotsman' timestamp='1328767969' post='538350']
I don't have dog in this race, it makes no difference to me in any way, either way. I am looking forward to the TV adverts for LGBT divorce lawyers. Both sides glitter-bombing the opposing council, and deciding the court needs pink velour upholstery. Judge judy, move over!

I just have to point out the hipocracy of anyone that champions the rule of true democracy in one case, then turns around and cheers an activist court overriding the true democratic decision of the people.

Why is it that every time someone mentions religious opposition to gay marriage it comes to a Christian-bashing session, but no one ever mentions that Islamic nations are hanging anyone the think is gay from a crane jib, at a rather alarming rate.
[/quote]

It's been said many times that we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic where the constitution is supposed to over rule the masses if the masses have chosen to abuse their power. What if the masses voted to disenfranchise everyone named Scotsman? Or voted that hookah smokers could never own property? "Voting" per se, isn't always the answer to what's right, especially when you add the media influence.

I remember the ads for Prop. 8 when they aired. Some of them were completely fabricated using fear to cause people to vote for it. The vote on Prop. 8 itself was a travesty. I spoke to a whole lot of people who voted for it, and they ended up regretting they did when they went back and compared the facts as opposed to what they'd been told. For example, they'd been told gay sex would be taught in school. Hell, we don't teach straight sex in school, why would we teach gay sex? (Heath education teaches reproduction from a scientific point of view, not sex.) But that's what the ads implied and what they were told by the religious right wing in charge of the campaign. It was fear mongering that caused Prop. 8 to pass in the first place.

'Rani