Limiting Carbon Monoxide

[dizzbizz]

Shnordel, the solutions they presented were the crappy electric coals, or perhaps an inverted bowl. Those are really the only solutions besides quitting.

[mattarios2]

Regardless of how others feel about smoking I am with the OP. I also have the same mindset of making it as safe as possible.

 

I have researched the CO in hookah for quite some time over the years and yes there is clear consistant proof that larger hookahs reduce the amount of CO the user inhale dramatically. a 15 inch hookah vs a 32 inch hookah and a longer hose/vase on the 32 inch hookah decreased CO levels over 300%.

 

I recently bought a 1/2 od solid copper pipe at lowes that slides perfectly into the nuhose/fancy hose. I use it as my hose tip and as a method to reduce CO since not only is it longer but also as stated in the thread previously copper will oxidize, decreasing the amount of CO in the smoke. I got a 2 foot pipe (i smoke with a couple friends usually) and I tend to have to lean in a little bit to take a hit so the long pipe not only gets rid of me having to lean but also makes the hobby I love a bit healthier.

 

You may say oh that is only going to reduce the CO the tiniest bit, which may be true, or it may be a huge difference, but either way a tiny bit over 50 years is huge.

 

Damn I have been resurrecting threads hard lately.

[Hassouni]

John, can you take a pic of this copper jive?

 

By the way, since my apartment has CRAP ventilation, I've been investigating house plants that eat carbon monoxide (as well as various VOCs like formaldehyde, benzene, etc, that paint and furniture often release) and act as natural air purifiers. I've been concerned about CO emissions not just from hookah charcoal, but from my gas stove and gas fireplace.

 

According to various studies:

The spider plant is apparently the top performer for CO, so I have one. 

The areca palm apparently is the best at everything

 

Other plants that eat CO and other things:

 

Golden pothos

Bamboo palm

Rubber plant

Chinese evergreen

English ivy

Aloe vera

Snake plant

 

All of these can be found even in hardware stores - they're some of the most common houseplants, and most of them are pretty easy to care for

[Addison Roberts]

I would recommend getting a lotus as well. Reduces the coal taste/co levels by a lot.

[mattarios2]

John, can you take a pic of this copper jive?

 

By the way, since my apartment has CRAP ventilation, I've been investigating house plants that eat carbon monoxide (as well as various VOCs like formaldehyde, benzene, etc, that paint and furniture often release) and act as natural air purifiers. I've been concerned about CO emissions not just from hookah charcoal, but from my gas stove and gas fireplace.

 

According to various studies:

The spider plant is apparently the top performer for CO, so I have one. 

The areca palm apparently is the best at everything

 

Other plants that eat CO and other things:

 

Golden pothos

Bamboo palm

Rubber plant

Chinese evergreen

English ivy

Aloe vera

Snake plant

 

All of these can be found even in hardware stores - they're some of the most common houseplants, and most of them are pretty easy to care for

 

It is the following but 1/2 in od not 1/4

 

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43474-69305-CL02002N_0__?productId=3223663&Ntt=copper+pipe&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dcopper%2Bpipe&facetInfo=

 

It is made of soft copper so you can just bend the top so it tapers in like a mouth tip. Slips right into a nuhose and many other hoses.

 

Also thanks for that info on the plants etc, excellent to know and I will pick some of those up for sure.

 

I would recommend getting a lotus as well. Reduces the coal taste/co levels by a lot.

 

That is a myth that Eric busted. The lotus, even if it does work, is wrong in the belief that it decreases CO and other harmful things, it is total bs.

 

If anything it increases the CO because the coals do not get the sufficient air they need to cook. The lotus slows down the rate that the coals burn at.

[Addison Roberts]

 

John, can you take a pic of this copper jive?

 

By the way, since my apartment has CRAP ventilation, I've been investigating house plants that eat carbon monoxide (as well as various VOCs like formaldehyde, benzene, etc, that paint and furniture often release) and act as natural air purifiers. I've been concerned about CO emissions not just from hookah charcoal, but from my gas stove and gas fireplace.

 

According to various studies:

The spider plant is apparently the top performer for CO, so I have one. 

The areca palm apparently is the best at everything

 

Other plants that eat CO and other things:

 

Golden pothos

Bamboo palm

Rubber plant

Chinese evergreen

English ivy

Aloe vera

Snake plant

 

All of these can be found even in hardware stores - they're some of the most common houseplants, and most of them are pretty easy to care for

 

It is the following but 1/2 in od not 1/4

 

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43474-69305-CL02002N_0__?productId=3223663&Ntt=copper+pipe&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dcopper%2Bpipe&facetInfo=

 

It is made of soft copper so you can just bend the top so it tapers in like a mouth tip. Slips right into a nuhose and many other hoses.

 

Also thanks for that info on the plants etc, excellent to know and I will pick some of those up for sure.

 

I would recommend getting a lotus as well. Reduces the coal taste/co levels by a lot.

 

That is a myth that Eric busted. The lotus, even if it does work, is wrong in the belief that it decreases CO and other harmful things, it is total bs.

 

If anything it increases the CO because the coals do not get the sufficient air they need to cook. The lotus slows down the rate that the coals burn at.

 

 

Doesn't the lotus limit the taste of coals? I owned a lotus before but ended up gifting it to someone. I didn't use it that much but I noticed I got more flavor from the shisha then I did with foil. I haven't researched it that much though to know for a fact.

[Hassouni]

Taste has nothing to do with CO, as the latter is tasteless

[mattarios2]

 

 

John, can you take a pic of this copper jive?

 

By the way, since my apartment has CRAP ventilation, I've been investigating house plants that eat carbon monoxide (as well as various VOCs like formaldehyde, benzene, etc, that paint and furniture often release) and act as natural air purifiers. I've been concerned about CO emissions not just from hookah charcoal, but from my gas stove and gas fireplace.

 

According to various studies:

The spider plant is apparently the top performer for CO, so I have one. 

The areca palm apparently is the best at everything

 

Other plants that eat CO and other things:

 

Golden pothos

Bamboo palm

Rubber plant

Chinese evergreen

English ivy

Aloe vera

Snake plant

 

All of these can be found even in hardware stores - they're some of the most common houseplants, and most of them are pretty easy to care for

 

It is the following but 1/2 in od not 1/4

 

http://www.lowes.com/pd_43474-69305-CL02002N_0__?productId=3223663&Ntt=copper+pipe&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dcopper%2Bpipe&facetInfo=

 

It is made of soft copper so you can just bend the top so it tapers in like a mouth tip. Slips right into a nuhose and many other hoses.

 

Also thanks for that info on the plants etc, excellent to know and I will pick some of those up for sure.

 

I would recommend getting a lotus as well. Reduces the coal taste/co levels by a lot.

 

That is a myth that Eric busted. The lotus, even if it does work, is wrong in the belief that it decreases CO and other harmful things, it is total bs.

 

If anything it increases the CO because the coals do not get the sufficient air they need to cook. The lotus slows down the rate that the coals burn at.

 

 

Doesn't the lotus limit the taste of coals? I owned a lotus before but ended up gifting it to someone. I didn't use it that much but I noticed I got more flavor from the shisha then I did with foil. I haven't researched it that much though to know for a fact.

 

 

No idea

 

Taste has nothing to do with CO, as the latter is tasteless

 

Correct!

[mattarios2]

It wouldn't be an issue using a copper pipe like I linked right? I know people always say this and that about copper but as far as im concerned they use it in the core of hookah pipes and it isn't being heated or anything on the end of the hose, and I noticed no difference in taste or anything.

[mushrat]

um did i miss something? can someone link me to the literature about copper reducing carbon monoxide?

[Hassouni]

Yeah, what he said

[mattarios2]

http://www.tangiers.us/index.php?showtopic=12177&p=72059

[DrSmokes]

http://www.tangiers.us/index.php?showtopic=12177&p=72059

Can you c+p it? Eric never verified my account in the past and I didn't feel like bothering him just for an account to log in with.

[mattarios2]

Here is the whole post. It all makes sense, not sure that I COMPLETELY agree with him on the coconut coals but then again I use halves, never wholes so I don't waste ANY charcoal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I have some very definite ideas about reducing CO, carbon monoxide. CO2, by the way, is carbon dioxide; Its the gas that you expel from your lungs during respiration. Carbon monoxide is the dangerous, hazardous gas that is created from the improper or incomplete oxidation of carbon. The most efficient process, in my opinion, is to change the carbon monoxide into something non-harmful, rather that removing it. Remediation is easier than removal. The best and easiest conversion, again, in my opinion, is to convert the carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide. 

 

1. The process for refining iron (from iron ore) in the principles of metallurgy still involve the use of carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide is across the iron ore to remove the oxygen from iron. Carbon has a higher oxidation potential than does iron. Thus, when iron with oxygen comes in contact with a partially oxidized carbon (carbon monoxide), it will remove the oxygen creating reduced, elemental iron and carbon dioxide. So, any metal that has a lower oxidation potential than does carbon monoxide should follow the same principle.

 

2. If you are using a steel coil hose, rather than a "washable" or "rust-proof" hose, the minute amounts of oxide building up on the coils will tend to remove some carbon monoxide. It will also retard or reverse the rusting process on the steel coils. If you're silly enough to wash a steel coil hose, there's no helping the hose, but I've seen hoses that were a 3-4 on the "rusting scale" (10 being completely rusted, 1 being not rusted at all) be reversed and saved by smoking Tangiers through it. Tangiers is one of the few brands you could accomplish this with because most brands have a high water content, which in turn, refluxes or deposits more water back inside the hose, creating even more rust. 

 

3. Zinc is found with copper in the alloy we call brass as well as on galvanized steel has a higher oxidation potential and therefore is useless in changing carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide. This is why galvanized steel is made in the first place, because the zinc will "rust" before the iron. 

 

4. Copper, on the other hand, would even more aggressively give up oxygen to carbon monoxide than iron. Metals with low oxidation potentials are called "Noble Metals" many years ago and metals with high oxidation potentials can be called "Ignoble Metals". This is derived from gold and platinum with have very low oxidation potentials. They are known as noble metals. Noble implying a person of high birth or rare quality. This is how the medieval metallurgist perceived gold and platinum as they were extremely useful and invulnerable to chemical attack, but exceedingly rare are difficult to work with. Copper is known as a lesser noble metal, but a noble metal nonetheless. Hookah shanks that have brass or copper cores and ports should filter out carbon monoxide better. 

 

5. Stainless steel, owing to its ability to resist oxidation has dubious ability to "oxygenate carbon monoxide" or complete the oxidation of carbon. Stainless steel core shanks probably allow more carbon monoxide to pass through than would their otherwise identical copper and brass counterparts. 

 

6. Aluminum has a higher oxidation potential than does carbon monoxide. Aluminum, in fact, is one of these most easy oxidizeable metals. Its so readily oxidized that upon presentation with a fresh Aluminum surface it almost instantly burns and forms an oxidized layer that protects the rest of the aluminum from further oxidation. This is one of the principle reasons I am opposed to aluminum hookah shanks: Aluminum is a weak metal, structurally and does nothing to aid in the removal of carbon monoxide.

 

7. I would surmise that charcoal that is higher in sulfur (or other impurity type elements) which also requires oxygen when they burn. this reduces the amount of oxygen available to complete the reaction of carbon to carbon dioxide. It doesn't finish oxidizing due to lack of oxygen, and carbon monoxide is the result. If you turn the air vent on a gas flame all the way down, you'll get a smutty, yellow flame that strongly ashes and aerosolizes carbon. This flame is dangerous. It is producing carbon monoxide. If your gas furnace is burning with a yellow flame, it is belching carbon monoxide into the ventilation. It needs immediate, emergency service. 

 

7a. Using charcoal that have fewer impurities is advisable to reduce carbon monoxide in your hookah. There will always be some trace elements, a residue left over often from the charcoaling the tree, including its DNA, which will have minute trace amounts of several elements, including sulfur. Proteins wouldn't ever work without sulfur. We need sulfur, elemental sulfur, to live.

 

7b. Some companies add sulfur to the charcoal. It functions as an oxidizing agent. Thermite (which, coincidentally is a reaction of iron oxide and elemental aluminum. The elemental aluminum vigorously and with great thermal output steals oxygen from the iron) is often infused with sulfur to make it "stronger". In general, each element will get one atom of oxygen before any of them get a second. The more elements, or contaminants there are in there, the more oxygen they will steal away.

 

7c. If your charcoal's ash has an orange-yellow-brown-grey color to it, it is because of either trace elements or added chemicals. In either case it strongly suggests the presence of large amounts of sulfur. This charcoal is likely producing more carbon monoxide than a charcoal that has a dark grey or black ash. 

 

8. Japanese charcoal, upon chemical tests I had done years ago, have approximately 1/12 the sulfur of natural charcoal. either bamboo has less sulfur naturally or the Japanese process the charcoal to remove sulfur. In either case, I am of the opinion that GOOD Japanese coal produces less carbon monoxide because of its lower sulfur content. This is one of the reasons I personally only use good Japanese coals. 

 

Hope this helps you in a direction towards your project to reduce carbon monoxide in the hookah. Enjoy! 

 

In a like vein, but not directed at Ashley: GOOD Japanese charcoal. Lights on itself, easier to use, easier to control heat with, cheaper to use (see post above) and produces less carbon monoxide. 

 

Why are you people still using coconut coal?!?

[Hassouni]

uh, because it's cheap and burns longer than 15 fucking minutes...

[Chreees]

If I recall correctly, Japs are only cheaper for the folks who can get them at wholesale price. So they're cheaper for Eric, but not for me. Coconut coals last much, much longer than Japs and you get more in a box with cocos, therefore you're paying less with cocos. Are they easier to light? Yes, you can piggyback them off one another, but for me it's just as easy if not easier to throw more coconut coals onto my single coil burner, which I keep right near me when smoking. Besides, you're likely to get up about every hour or so anyway to get a drink, use the bathroom, etc. anyway. I definitely agree that Japs are lower heat and perfect for Tangiers, but all the other factors make me stick with cocos and deal with the higher heat by stonehenging, cutting them it halves, and hanging them off the edges of the bowl. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mattarios2]

Oh no, I agree, it's just if they do have way lower amounts of sulphur ... it makes me want to at least TRY to make them work ya know? Less sulphur = less carbon monoxide in your smoke.

 

And I only smoke out of copper pipes partially for the reasons Eric stated. Ever since I read this thread years ago I have barely touched any of my stainless steel km's.

[DrSmokes]

I wonder if a copper diffuser would help too. I've not seen any, but I'm wondering if that will help much.

[mattarios2]

I think anytime it passes through copper it is a good thing.

 

I'm gonna be buying some unwashable temsah hoses and using each hose for a different group of flavors since that is another good step to reducing the carbon monoxide.

 

Besides washable hoses aren't even that washable to be honest other than fancy/nuhoses they all start to hold scents after a while. And when you wash them they still smell like crap.

[Chreees]

Man I can't keep up with all this science stuff, lol. I just smoke and try not to worry about much.

[Hassouni]

Ya Mattar:

 

1. Are your stainless KMs stainless in the downstem too? My stainless Lebanese pipes pretty much all have brass downstems. 

 

2. According to someone, Elmas hoses are made with copper wiring, which accounts for their flexibility compared to a normal leather hose. Plus they're extra long.  Sounds like using your tallest Elmas copper-stemmed pipe, with an Elmas hose is the way to go!

 

Still, I'd like to see some evidence from somewhere besides Eric that copper helps with CO.

[mattarios2]

Man I can't keep up with all this science stuff, lol. I just smoke and try not to worry about much.

 

I'm not worried. Just would like to keep it as safe as possible.

 

When you do look at carbon monoxide levels of hookah smokers after a 45 min session, it is quite alarming. To think some smoke 3-4 hours at a time ... definitely not good. I agree most studies are bullshit, trying to compare 1 cig to an hour of hookah smoking and make no mention of anything except carbon monoxide to make hookah look terrible yada yada. BUT, if your setup is legit, studies have shown that hookah has the same if not a bit less CO than cigs when compared equally one hour of hookah vs 1 hour of cigarettes (for the day). So what I am getting at is, studies have shown, with a quality setup, a tall hookah, big bowl, big vase, a really long hose, copper core, and unwashable hose, you can drastically change the outcome.

 

I made mention of this earlier in the thread - One study I read that I have saved said that on average a hookah puff from a 15 inch hookah (not going to go into too many details here but) a small hose, small bowl, and small vase yielded 1.3% vs a huge setup .34%

 

So something as simple as using a larger setup (in the study the stem for the large setup was 32 inches from the top of the pipe to the bottom of the downstem) decreased CO levels by 382% so when I for instance have a bunch of hookahs why not use the tallest one at least when I am home? Simple switch that can potentially yield HUGE results.

 

It is very simple simple stuff here that I wouldn't call worrying, more like educating on what hookah CAN and DOES do to you and how to reduce those effects with easy options.

[mattarios2]

Ya Mattar:

 

1. Are your stainless KMs stainless in the downstem too? My stainless Lebanese pipes pretty much all have brass downstems. 

 

2. According to someone, Elmas hoses are made with copper wiring, which accounts for their flexibility compared to a normal leather hose. Plus they're extra long.  Sounds like using your tallest Elmas copper-stemmed pipe, with an Elmas hose is the way to go!

 

Still, I'd like to see some evidence from somewhere besides Eric that copper helps with CO.

 

1. They are all SS all the way through. Except my old school KM OG tri metal, that has a brass heart and a brass hose port.

 

2. Eh not sure about them being copper I doubt it, I popped off one of my hose tips on one of my elmas hoses and it didn't look like copper and also if they were made with copper then they wouldn't rust and would last forever. Just double checked, they def are not copper.

 

I agree but if Eric says it, There is a high likely hood it is legit.

 

Either way studies have at least shown using a large pipe with a big bowl long hose and large vase makes a huge difference.

[Hassouni]

How did you check your Elmas hose without cutting it open?  I've had Elmas hoses since 2010 and none have rusted, whereas that long is really pushing it for my Lebanese hoses - by 2 years or so I'm lucky if there's no red dust when I blow through. And as I said, they are way, way more flexible than my Lebanese hoses. I'm not saying conclusively it's copper, but based on that evidence alone I'm inclined to believe it.

[mattarios2]

One of them popped right off. Now I can pop it on or use a glass piece if I care to. The handle goes right back in and seals tight, no leak. Just use force and the glue snaps loose.

 

It isn't copper Hass, I am looking right at it, it is silver in color. But I will agree that they are probably one of the best hoses you can use. They are HUUGEEE