Limiting Carbon Monoxide

[Hassouni]

Wait, what popped off exactly?  Perhaps if not copper, it's some other non-steel metal?

[mattarios2]

The entire wood handle, they come off of the hose so when the hose dies you can keep using the wooden mouth pieces.

 

Yah could possibly be a different type of metal.

[Hassouni]

You mean the mouthpiece thing, right? Mine are mostly all removable and I can't see any coils, since there's still 2 feet of handle left

[mattarios2]

Yah one of mine you can't see, the other one you can, it goes all the way up the handle.

 

You can always remove the hose port end, and see the coil that way.

[Hassouni]

Rather not force my hoses apart  ^_^

 

Does a magnet stick to the hose? (I don't have any magnets handy unfortunately) 

[mattarios2]

yes the metal coil does stick to a magnet.

 

so it is probably steel of some sort

[Hassouni]

Well, that settles that. 

 

Why the hell don't they make hoses out of copper coils, is it that more expensive? Just think, no rust, ever!

[mattarios2]

That's what I was telling one of my friends the other day.

 

Yah I assume copper would cost more.

[Skoozle]

Oh no, I agree, it's just if they do have way lower amounts of sulphur ... it makes me want to at least TRY to make them work ya know? Less sulphur = less carbon monoxide in your smoke.

 

And I only smoke out of copper pipes partially for the reasons Eric stated. Ever since I read this thread years ago I have barely touched any of my stainless steel km's.

 

But how much more coal do you use with Japs?  You'll likely have to use 3 tabs to get Nak smoking instead of 2 Coconut coals and you'  go through at least 2 rounds of Japs for every round of coconut coals.  How much do 6 Jap tabs weigh compared to 2 coconut coals?

 

I wonder if a copper diffuser would help too. I've not seen any, but I'm wondering if that will help much.

 

Copper wool with patina wrapped around the down stem would seem to be a good way to encourage the reaction to happen.

 

I think anytime it passes through copper it is a good thing.

 

I'm gonna be buying some unwashable temsah hoses and using each hose for a different group of flavors since that is another good step to reducing the carbon monoxide.

 

Besides washable hoses aren't even that washable to be honest other than fancy/nuhoses they all start to hold scents after a while. And when you wash them they still smell like crap.

 

It's actually the copper patina that reacts with CO -   CuO + CO  ->  Cu + CO2

 

Well, that settles that. 

 

Why the hell don't they make hoses out of copper coils, is it that more expensive? Just think, no rust, ever!

 

I would pay more for copper coil hoses.

 

 

I tend to stick to washables to avoid rust.  A throat full of rust sucks.

[Hassouni]

I will say though, that not one my Elmas hoses has rusted.

 

And my Lebanese hoses, which do eventually after a few years rust, are 1. very cheap, so it doesn't bother me. And 2, I always blow through them before use to see if there's any reddish dust

[Skoozle]

Elmas hoses are bigger than I would prefer.

 

I was damn close to buying those Leb. hoses from you despite the steel coils.  I do like everything else about them, especially the price.  I just can't get on board with checking for rust before every smoke.  I'd rather not have to deal with it.

[Hassouni]

Eh, if you've been careful for the first year or two you don't really have to check

 

(By careful, I mean, once done smoking immediately remove the hose and blow through it to get all humid smoke out)

[mattarios2]

 

Oh no, I agree, it's just if they do have way lower amounts of sulphur ... it makes me want to at least TRY to make them work ya know? Less sulphur = less carbon monoxide in your smoke.

 

And I only smoke out of copper pipes partially for the reasons Eric stated. Ever since I read this thread years ago I have barely touched any of my stainless steel km's.

 

But how much more coal do you use with Japs?  You'll likely have to use 3 tabs to get Nak smoking instead of 2 Coconut coals and you'  go through at least 2 rounds of Japs for every round of coconut coals.  How much do 6 Jap tabs weigh compared to 2 coconut coals?

 

I wonder if a copper diffuser would help too. I've not seen any, but I'm wondering if that will help much.

 

Copper wool with patina wrapped around the down stem would seem to be a good way to encourage the reaction to happen.

 

I think anytime it passes through copper it is a good thing.

 

I'm gonna be buying some unwashable temsah hoses and using each hose for a different group of flavors since that is another good step to reducing the carbon monoxide.

 

Besides washable hoses aren't even that washable to be honest other than fancy/nuhoses they all start to hold scents after a while. And when you wash them they still smell like crap.

 

It's actually the copper patina that reacts with CO -   CuO + CO  ->  Cu + CO2

 

Well, that settles that. 

 

Why the hell don't they make hoses out of copper coils, is it that more expensive? Just think, no rust, ever!

 

I would pay more for copper coil hoses.

 

 

I tend to stick to washables to avoid rust.  A throat full of rust sucks.

 

 

Yah but on a chemical level isn't the copper giving up oxygen as soon as foreign substances pass over it?

[mattarios2]

Or are you responding to the unwashable hose with the coil part?

 

Because based on previous things mentioned in this thread the smoke passing over the coil in unwashable hoses also helps reduce carbon monoxide intake.

[Skoozle]

Sorry, Responding to 4 posts isn't my strong point.

 

What I was trying to say is that fresh bright copper won't help much because it doesn't have much if any patina or CuO to give oxygen back to the CO to produce CO2.  You want old weathered copper with lots of CuO. the CO will take oxygen from the CuO leaving copper (Cu) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2).

 

That really should have been directed at the good Doctor's post.

 

In regards to the Temsah hoses, yes the steel coils (which have oxidized) will also oxidize the CO to CO2 but not quite as well as copper patina (I think) the problem is that oxidized steel is rust.  So the better prepared the steel coil is to convert some CO to CO2, the better prepared it is to coat your throat with rust dust.  That's a real mood killer.  Copper Patina wouldn't do that.

 

Make sure you check those Temsah hoses for rust when you get them.  I've been disappointed before. (this was the main point I wanted to make in responding to your post).

 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a chemist. Please forgive me if I got any of that wrong.  I'm pretty sure the general principals are solid though.

[mattarios2]

Gotcha, I don't know shat about this stuff on a chemical level really. But in logical terms I would think that once a layer of patina is formed, that layer is there to protect the metal from further oxidizing right? So wouldn't a bunch of patina be a bad thing?

 

My thought process is when foreign objects contact the copper it would instantly (on a chemical level of course) start to give up oxygen.

 

Once again I know nothing when it comes to this stuff, that is just what makes sense in mah brain! lol

[Skoozle]

Copper is an element, it doesn't have oxygen.  Patina is a combination of copper and oxygen and thus has oxygen to give up.  During my googling today I read that Carbon Monoxide is used to refine copper ore back to pure copper.

[mattarios2]

Based on what Eric says here:

 

"2. If you are using a steel coil hose, rather than a "washable" or "rust-proof" hose, the minute amounts of oxide building up on the coils will tend to remove some carbon monoxide. It will also retard or reverse the rusting process on the steel coils."

 

It sounds like the reaction does both, reduces the CO and then retards the build up of rust?

[mattarios2]

Copper is an element, it doesn't have oxygen.  Patina is a combination of copper and oxygen and thus has oxygen to give up.  During my googling today I read that Carbon Monoxide is used to refine copper ore back to pure copper.

 

That makes sense, but doesn't it on a molecular level start creating patina almost right away when it comes into contact with foreign objects? Or am I just being totally lame about this lol.

 

Hmm maybe I shouldn't wash my copper pipes so often.

 

I actually read that somewhere too.

[Skoozle]

Yeah, I wonder if there is a way to age copper without adding chemicals worse than CO.

[mattarios2]

Well from now on after I wash my pipe after a session, I am not going to dry it. Then see the next day if I run water down it, if any green stuff comes out.

 

We shall see.

[Sonthert]

Copper/brass will buildup an oxide layer simply from washing. Don't brush it for a few weeks when you first get it. The green material you're getting off when you wash and brush it is a mixture of CuCO3 and Cu(OH)2. CO2 reacts with water to form carbonic acid H2CO3, which reacts with copper to form the CuCO3. Water will also react directly with the copper to form Cu(OH)2. Both will decompose to form CuO. The CuCO3 will evolve CO2 leaving the CuO and the Cu(OH)2 will evolve water to form CuO. 

 

Aluminum will unlikely contribute any oxygen as Aluminum (or Aluminium to our non-American friends) as the oxidation potential for Aluminium is quite high. The question is always whom has a higher oxidation potential Carbon Monoxide or the element in question? When it comes to iron, copper, zinc, just about anything, Carbon monoxide's affinity to oxygen is higher...except for aluminum. So, aluminum is a poor choice for removing carbon monoxide. 

 

Stainless steel may or may may not have some oxygen on it. Depends on the type of stainless steel. I would wager that the more expensive the grade of stainless steel, the less oxygen will be available on its surface. In general. I could be wrong on that though. I would surmise further that even the lowest grades of stainless steel would be relatively oxygen-free. Still better than aluminum though.

 

As Matt I believe already quoted me regarding iron in carbon steel, like as in hoses I will only mention briefly that iron will oxidize with great facility, so it will have oxygen availability. Copper is considered a "noble" metal in that its not too enthusiastic about oxidizing. Its the more brutish brother of platinum, gold and silver. So, I would proffer that iron in terms of carbon steel would be the best filter of carbon monoxide. Copper ain't bad, but I should think steel is better. 

 

There is a side discussion, which may be irrelevant to the scope of this conversation, that CO2 may have a tendency to react with an unoxidzed metallic surface to turn it into carbon monoxide and the metal into the oxide. The key summary to be aware of is that the influx of new oxygen is what's important. Otherwise you may be just trading oxygen atoms between metal and carbon. So, its best to give it a quick wash to provide it some hydroxide and leave it open, and off the jar to allow both ends of the shank access to the air. Its quite likely that the ends of the shank will be higher in CuCO3 (since it is closer to fresh air) and the center will be higher in Cu(OH)2 since the water can (through rinsing) get all the way through the shank. Both should get the job done in producing CuO very nicely. 

 

I don't think CO has been used to refine copper as copper ore exists largely as copper sulfide. I might be wrong about that. Iron was and still widely is refined using carbon monoxide however. Refining copper using carbon monoxide might be sloppy. I would think pure oxygen would displace the sulfur (since it has a higher electronegativity) and then the oxide would be heated at relatively high temperatures (say 2000F) to drive off the oxygen. 

 

In terms of filtering out carbon monoxide, which I think is an important conversation, the following things may be helpful:

 

Good charcoal. Good charcoal will have chemical accelerants in them that will reduce the heat and oxygen necessary to fully oxidize carbon to carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is caused by faulty or incomplete oxidation of carbon. Crummy coal will use sulfur as an accelerant since sulfur is cheap. Sulfur will, unfortunately increase the amount of oxygen necessary to oxidize carbon. This is one of the reasons I use good Japanese coals. They seem to produce much less carbon monoxide. When people say they use natural charcoal, I scoff, even if to myself. There are very people who actually use "natural" charcoal. Besides, highly synthesized and artificial charcoal can be much better at reducing the amount of carbon monoxide. 

 

Good air flow. More air, better flow. More air, more oxygen, more oxygen better oxidation. Small, tight hookahs will allow more carbon monoxide to accumulate presumably.

 

Copper core hookahs. Hookahs with copper or uncolored brass main tubes will filter out some carbon monoxide by reacting with it. 

 

Steel coil hoses. Washable hoses and plastic hoses like people use from Home Depot for dishwashers will increase the amount of carbon monoxide coming out. Steel coils in the hose will react with the carbon monoxide beneficially. 

 

Fresh water in the jar will help provide oxygenated water which may react with carbon monoxide. Using the same dirty water over and over again may deplete the amount of oxygen in the water available. This reaction may be quite small, but it could make a small difference. 

[â€On]

Awesome post Eric! I was talking yesterday with John (Mattarios) about drilling out some holes through the lower plate of the Lotus in an attempt to increase airflow through it. He directed me to your post from back in spring 2013 on .us where you go into detail about the problems with CO buildup in the lotus (and also into why jap coals are more efficient/better than cocos), which is what prompted that discussion. My question: would the air passing through the metal of the lotus not react with it in some way? I'm not positive as to what kind of metal it's made of, but the reaction must happen to some degree. 

[synthacide]

I have some pretty fine copper mesh... wonder about putting some down the stem and bunching it at the bottom for a diffuser, what yall think?

[Bawhee]

For a diffuser all you really need to do us put something at the bottom of your stem that makes the bubble split into many bubbles. But I think that's totally unnecessary... If you do make one I think there was a DIY guide in the DIY area.