The Rape Debate

[Chreees]

First Todd Akin: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/politics/rep-todd-akin-legitimate-rape-statement-and-reaction.html

Then Paul Ryan: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-slansky-/paul-ryan-said-something-_b_1832377.html

Now Tom Smith: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/pennsylvania-senate-hopeful-pregnancy-rape-similar-a-baby-wedlock-article-1.1145696

How any women are voting for these guys is beyond me. Rape is rape no matter what, and it should be up to the victim whether she wants to keep the baby or not should she get pregnant from the incident. She must be allowed to cope with the traumatic situation in her own way, not have our government tell her she has no choice and must keep it. That's PUNISHING her further for something she didn't even ask for. Also, if women are forced to keep their babies resulting from rape, I see an incline of this situation happening: http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/22/opinion/prewitt-rapist-visitation-rights/index.html . Yeah, even more punishment for the victim. Let's pile it on. Women obviously shouldn't have any rights whatsoever.

This whole thing is so crazy to me. It seems, to me anyway, that it would be common sense for women, as Americans, to be able to decide these things. And it makes sense to me that a law should be in place to prevent rapists from having any sort of rights should a victim decide to keep her baby. So why are these conservatives saying it should be their way? Oh, their religion?? Last I checked, we aren't supposed to have religion in our government... These guys are doing nothing more than pushing their religion on others.

[img]http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/OK-state-senator-holds-sign.jpg[/img]

[Coleman]

Chris I 100% understand where you are coming from and I agree it should be woman's choice. The only issue I see is that you actually believe desperation of church and state exists. The law itself exists but the idea is so far fetched in a country that is predominantly Christian. People, for the most part, when part of a religion are like sheep in that if they believe something other people who believe it are automatically correct now in some situations it's no big deal but in situations like this major problems arise and that is how anti abortion laws and anti gay marriage laws are formed

[DrSmokes]

Women should have the choice. If they have to keep the child, they will resent that child before he/she is even born. That is no life to live for a child, nor a parent. How these people can live with themselves for promoting the idea or law that the government should not allow the rape victim to choose what to do with the unborn child, is beyond me. It's like they are living in a fantasy world...either that or they are just too stupid to think logically. Maybe we need more atheists/agnostics in office so we needn't worry about the blurring of the church-state line.

Just another freedom the government is wanting to strip away from us. Next they will be telling us which hand we need to wipe our asses with.

[Tyler]

I'd like to see less seperation of church and state and more understanding of what the church actually believes in -- so many people are malinformed on what the Bible actually says. Additionally, the country wasn't founded for freedom against religion in general, it was founded by people who wanted to practice religion in a different way. I'm not supporting the whole stupid rape thing but I think people are jumping the gun a bit blaming Christians. Have you ever met a REAL Christian? None of them would ever go for half of this stuff people are blaming on the church. I know real Christians are few and far between but that doesn't mean they're not out there and it is not fair to group them in with the ignorants.

[Chreees]

Coleman- Right. That's my point- There's SUPPOSED to be separation of church and state, but there really isn't... I wish it were actually enforced.

Conservatives often like to speak for the founding fathers regarding religion, but they never directly quote what they actually had to say on the matter:

[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4qvrzeAZ01qil96wo1_500.jpg[/img]

Hell, even RONALD REAGAN said this:

[img]http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2884/492030471.jpg[/img]

Also, fun fact: "In God We Trust" is the current national motto of the United States. It was declared as such by an act of Congress in 1956, displacing the existing national motto, E Pluribus Unum ("Out of many, one" in Latin). "In God We Trust" didn't appear on our national currency until 1957.

In other words, we didn't put all the God stuff into our government until the Cold War... Ya know, when people were all scared of communism.

EDIT:

Totally agree with you, Dr.

Tyler, problem is people interpret the Bible in so many different ways, that one must ask- What does the Bible actually say? What parts of it do we listen to, and which parts do we pretend are not there? Sorry, but I don't trust any single person to decide what it actually says. You know and I know that is what most Christian people do- highlight certain parts and disregard others. Therefore, we NEED that line between church and state. Without it, we would have even more of a religious war in this country.

[Coleman]

It's not Just the fact people interpret it differently, it's also the fact that the bible is literally full of errors do to being translated so many times. The bible was written in Aramaic then translated in to Latin and then to the other languages we know today. Lots has been lost in translation

[Tyler]

The Bible wasn't written in Aramaic, only certain verses were. Most of the Bible was written in Coptic and Hebrew. The Lennigrad Codex is the oldest complete manuscript of the Bible in existance and when compared to the Dead Sea Scrolls (origonal writings) the translations were not that different from the origonal language to what is known as the NRSV (new revised standard version) Bible, which is the only version that should exist. The problem is people are stupid and instead of putting forth effort to anything they just want an easy way to do everything. Religous education should be a requirement to graduate, especially in a country that prides itself on being the "Melting pot of the world." Potatoe Po-ta-toe people will always view things differently but in the Bible situation, there are flat out wrong ways to look at passages. Gay marriage is one thing that people are ignorant about. I've posted numerous times how wrong people are about the Bible condemning homosexuality. Not to mention it's not in the Ten Commandments, seven deadly sins, and Jesus never mentioned it. Obviously wasn't a big deal and it was very prevelant in Israel and Egypt at the time.

[Rani]

Okay, here's my female point of view.....

First of all, I'm appalled at how many women are so incredibly lax about birth control. So many are unbelievably careless, starting in their teenage years. It's a life for God's sake. Never mind abortion itself and whether or not you choose to have one, it's creating and bringing into existence an unwanted life. NO CHILD SHOULD EVER BE CONCEIVED UNWANTED!!!! If you don't want to have a child, use double birth control. As a woman, I never once, not once failed to take responsibility for my own birth control. And while on the pill, still expected AND DEMANDED condoms. More than once, despite being on the pill, I heard the "no baby but you can trust me" speech, and I got up, put on my shoes and danced my way out the door. There is NOTHING, no desire, no warm-up, no "almost ready" that can't be resolved with $9.,95 and a fist full of batteries if a man is uncooperative about condoms. That heat of the moment excuse is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit and women MUST be taught the self-respect so that they protect themselves and avoid the creation of unwanted life above all. And men MUST be raised to apply the same self-respect and always, ALWAYS use a condom unless they are intentionally trying to create a life. Period, end of rant.

NOW..... Have gotten that off my chest.... The Republican Party has for all intent and purposes, declared war on women. Rights are being abridged and threatened more than just about any time in history. I honestly don't think they'll be satisfied until we're all barefoot, pregnant and deprived of voting rights again. And women, sometimes amazingly stupid, seem to forget that THIS IS THE OFFICIAL PARTY PLATFORM! I was ranting about it a few days ago, and do you know what I heard? "Oh, well, I don't think they all feel that way." Then why, I ask you, is it the official fucking party platform???? I mean come on, how stupid can we possibly be? And you know who should be really scared? Everybody else.

When the rights of a few, the minority are abridged, so are your own. Too many times there's a mental justification. It's only black people enslaved. It's only witches being burned. It's only Muslims, it's only women, it's only Mexicans, it's only........ in other words IT'S NOT ME! So it slips through unprotested. But it is the precedent, it is the beginning of that precedent being used against you. Nobody seems to have any sense of history anymore. When you forget history you're going to repeat it. People are fighting to de-regulate business, but do you know why they were regulated? Because people got tired of having to send their children into sweat shops instead of school for pennies a day to barely survive. You think the Barons of Industry got to be billionaires by being kind, compassionate and caring about their workers? No, they got there by being ruthless about profit. Jobs aren't being outsourced because of the economy. They're being outsourced because it's still legal to kill your workers for pennies a day in sweat shops in China and Indonesia.

The Republican Party is intentionally trying to send us back in America's dark ages were wealthy business owners and bankers literally got away with murder. And made billions doing it. They DO NOT support small business, nor do they support the middle class, which by the way, are all those people making less that several million a year who think they're above middle class. That's a key point people need to consider. Making one or even two million a year, doesn't make you one of them. You're just at the upper end of middle class, and you're up for extinction just like the rest of us. Sure, it starts with women, and minorities, and Muslims, etc. It ends, as it ALWAYS has in history, with a selected few having it all, and the rest of us rioting in the streets. And if you don't believe me, you are not paying any attention to history.

'Rani

[Hassouni]

There is no debate, there's simply lies and denial.

[gramps]

And we're still confronted with unadulterated hatred like this:
[quote]In the aftermath of the Family Research Council shooting, prominent voices on the left have not tapped down their violent rhetoric against their opponents. Two Baby Boomer celebrities have taken to Twitter to hope pro-life, pro-family individuals and U.S. Congressman Todd Akin suffer a drowning or a same-sex rape, respectively.
On Sunday, Ellen Barkin expressed her hope that Tropical Storm Isaac would smash up the Republican National Convention in Tampa and drown all its delegates.

She [url="https://twitter.com/EllenBarkin"]retweeted[/url] the [u][u]message[/u] [/u]of one of her followers that read: “C’mon #Isaac! Wash every pro-life, anti-education, anti-woman, xenophobic, gay-bashing, racist SOB right into the ocean! #RNC ” Barkin did not express any disagreement in her retweet.[/quote]

I see most of the hatred and talk like that from the other side. All a person has to do is state what they believe and all hell breaks loose. Whether you agree or disagree, a person has the right to their opinions.

I personally don't think being pregnant grants you a right to commit murder, but I'm not going to lift one finger to stop you. Use contraception, or even the morning after pill. It's your life and your responsibility.

Rape is a crime and should be punished to the max; abortion is barbarism. How do we have the nerve to call ourselves civilized and permit such atrocities?

[Snowdrifter]

My own stance is that abortion is murder and is barbaric and I tend to encourage against it.

This being said, I do no pass judgment to those who have had or are pro-abortion. But the key element here is that there is a choice. I do not think it's right for anyone to impose restrictions on what a woman can or cannot do when it so intimately involves her being(note how I said this. I didn't say her body because it is in fact, a pair of bodies). That should be her choice that she can make based on her circumstances.

I have more to say, but will continue tomorrow when im not on mobile

[Rani]

One of the things people bring up is that isn't not a life until it takes it's first breath, so I will tell you something even I find strange.

I always know when someone is pregnant. ALWAYS. Even before they "show" a baby bump. People used to ask me how I did it. The best way I could explain it was that I sensed there were two people there in the one body. (And yes, I can sense twins as well. Been right there so often, I totally freak out some people.) I can't explain it beyond that because even to me, with a fair portion of "spooky" in my life, it's a little creepy to look at one person and sense two. The earliest I've been able to sense that has been about the 8 week mark. So for those who say it's a real person from the moment of conception, I disagree. To those who say it's just a parasite until it's born, I also disagree. If someone does everything "right" and birth control fails, or whatever, and you must have an abortion, get it absolutely as quickly as possible. Certainly before the 8 week mark. Because after that, my innate sense, says it's a real person.

'Rani

.

[DrSmokes]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1346192330' post='555321']
Rape is a crime and should be punished to the max; abortion is barbarism. How do we have the nerve to call ourselves civilized and permit such atrocities?
[/quote]
Have you adopted? If you have, then you have a voice in this situation, otherwise not. While those kids that are adopted right away may have a good chance (or better than the alternatives) at a good life, those that end up in foster care most likely won't have a good life and will be forgotten about, get involved in illegal activities, and possibly end up dead that way. Or if the mom keeps the child, she will most likely resent the kid for what happened to her. Those choices are not the right lives for kids to come into this world...IMHO. Children should be brought into this world full of LOVE. While that doesn't seem to be happening as much as it once did, this situation definitely will be filled more with resentment rather than love, and that is not good.

In the end, the woman should be educated on the situation. Not be made to feel guilty by the doctor's condescending tone in the situation, but she should be given the information for her to make the choice HERSELF. It's not up to me, you, or the government to tell her what she can or cannot do in this situation.

But...this is all my opinion. I'm not government and I can't do whatever I would want for this country so in the end, my opinion doesn't really count I suppose.

[gramps]

I never had the extra money to adopt, but my son has adopted two children (both newborns at the time of adoption). My step-daughter and her husband have adopted three children. Two of my cousins were adopted. My family DOES put its money where its mouth is.

The process is long, involved and expensive. We'd see more adoptions if it were made easier and cheaper. I've noticed that there are more and more couples in this country that are having trouble conceiving a child of their own (maybe something environmental?), and would probably be happy to adopt if it were easier. Edited August 30, 2012 by gramps

[Stuie]

So Let's use some deductive logic.

When is some one dead? When they stop breathing, no. When their heart stops? Yes.

DEATH OCCURS: When the Heart Ceases to function.

So what is Living: When the Heart functions.

I heard my daughters heartbeat at 6 weeks and my sons at 7. They were alive, I felt them, I saw them. I felt them kick, I felt them get hiccups.... AND I WASN'T THE ONE EVEN PREGNANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So Abortion isn't murder after we can hear a heart beat? Seriously. You must not have kids.

Should rapists have parental rights? HELL NO.

Should abortion be legal? Not after the heart beat can be heard. (I don't think it should be at all, but I will negotiate to this time frame)

Abortion isn't just some medical procedure you can get done and walk out like nothing happened. Some treat it like they are just going in to have a mole removed or something. I have a friend that had one her freshman year of college. Drunken frat party mistake. The guilt of doing still haunts her today. 12 years later and still in therapy. She looks at her son now and often cries knowing he could have a brother or sister. She is now divorced and because of this situation, her ex-husband has majority custody.

I personally believe in 2 situations were an abortion should be permitted.

1. Medical risk to the Mother. It's rare but personally I believe the mother should take priority in this scenario as adoption and future pregnancies are an option.

2. Rape Victims. I don't think it should be a free pass to an abortion it should be case by case. I can tell you of people who were raped and kept the baby with no issues, and I can tell you of people that just had abortions because of poor choices and psychologically scared by it. I think it should be standard that as a society when we have a rape victim we support them 100% get them counselling, make them feel safe again, and hunt down and castrate the rapist. I think a Psychologist who is well versed in rape trauma could tell if a woman would benefit psychologically from an abortion or cause more harm than good. In the end, in that scenario, it's the woman's choice. Because this traumatic experience (That should not exist in a civilized culture) She must make the decision but we all must be there to help her through it.

My wife wanted to post... let's just say I used a lot nicer words. HAHAHAHA!!!!!

And Smokes, no I haven't adopted. But We are looking at the possibility once the kiddos are out of diapers. My wife and I just feel that there are so many children out there in the System that need a home and we want to change a life for the better.

[Chreees]

That really makes a lot of sense about the heartbeat, Stu. I never thought of it that way. Hmmm, I have some pondering to do now... The rest of your post makes a lot of damn sense, too.


Tapatalk'd via iPhone

[gramps]

That was a great post, Stu. We're probably pretty close on what we believe.

In my mind I just keep coming back to this: Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". I'm not sure when the soul enters the body. Maybe it's as some believe at 3 or 4 months. Maybe at conception. I don't know, so I'd rather not make that judgement. Err on the side of caution, as it were.

Chreees, if you see this family around the Boro or Smyrna, say hi for me.
[img]http://gmwaid.smugmug.com/Other/Evans-Second-Birthday/i-xJGgnwp/0/M/251950414521545260516178289835-M.jpg[/img]

[Chreees]

Haven't seen them before. Or maybe I have at like Wal-Mart and just didn't know it. Haha. Looks like a very loving family, though.


Tapatalk'd via iPhone

[Rani]

First of all.... Sorry, know too much of history of both religion and "holy books" to base my thoughts on the subject of abortion on either of those two items, so please, for the sake of argument, let's leave religion out of medical issues. (Let me not get started on that rant, puh-leze.......)

Secondly.... As I've said before, I'm big on personal responsibility especially for women, by making sure if you're of a fertile age, you are on birth control period, every single day whether you're having sex or not. If you are, even if you are raped, you won't get pregnant. It's a life. Unless you actively desire to create a life, you should every single day be taking a simple step to avoid creating one. Period. No excuses, no "I didn't plan to have sex", no nothing. Stuie, your friend was of college age. She should have been on birth control. She was a consenting adult, she was fertile, she was a sexual human being. Abortion is NOT birth control. It is barbaric and should almost never be necessary.

Third..... Roe vs. Wade was never actually about abortion as such. It was about whether or not the government has the right to decide what medical procedures women may or may not have. That's it. You can be completely pro-life and also be pro-Roe vs. Wade. Roe vs. Wade is about women being able to control their own reproductive health. Legally banning abortion would mean the government having the ability to also ban heart transplants or transfusions, or just about anything else they choose. It's not about whether or not abortion is good or bad, it's about them not having the power to impose those choices. What's more, just as Prohibition never stopped anybody from drinking, illegal abortion didn't stop anyone from having one. Women just died a whole lot more from them. Or made the airlines more money as they left the country to have them. Banning abortion isn't going to stop them. Not even a little bit.

If you want to stop abortion, you have to stop the behavior that sends people down that path to begin with. Respect for women as sexual creatures who SHOULD BE empowered to take responsibility for their own sexual health and birth control. Men need to be taught equal empowerment. Really, you can't just walk away anymore. There is no more easy "hit it and quit it". DNA testing and paternity suits will ruin the next 18 years of your financial life if you "get lucky" and weren't empowered enough to protect yourself with a condom. We need to make birth control for both men and women easily accessible and free. We need to stop glorifying and rewarding sexual misconduct. The Kardashians becoming famous off sex tapes is absolute bullshit and I'm sorry, but I do think a requirement for getting Aid for Dependent Children should include a yearly birth control injection. Don't show up and take the shot, your aid gets cut off.

Until people begin to respect themselves and each other, you're going to have abortions, legal or not. I believe we need to solve the problems that create unwanted pregnancies. It's amazing to me in a day when a woman can wake up and take a tiny pill with her vitamins, that we have unplanned pregnancies at all. It's amazing to me that in a day when you can buy condoms at the grocery store, men are walking around picking up women without a single condom in their wallets. Use them, every single time. Just assume that hot young thing is out to intentionally trap you into paying child support for the next 18 years and put a jacket on it. And while I'm on the subject..... One of the arguments I always, always hear is that whole decrease in sensitivity thing...... A young coworker some time ago put it best I think when he laughed at the excuse by saying........."Oh yeah, I have to have sex longer before getting off. THAT'S a hardship alright!"

I could go on indefinitely, but damn it, where is everyone's common sense? Teach sexual responsibility to your children because abstinence hasn't worked since Adam and Eve. We're genetically programmed to reproduce. It ain't going to stop anytime soon. But if we actively choose to use the modern science that can prevent pregnancy in the first place, before we know it, abortion will be nothing more than an archaic and barbaric memory. On it's own. Without a single pro-lifer blowing up a single clinic.

'Rani

[Chreees]

Annnnnnd now this: http://www.examiner.com/article/gop-official-says-god-chooses-to-bless-raped-women-with-pregnancy

[Stuie]

[quote name='Chreees' timestamp='1347191590' post='556034']
Annnnnnd now this: [url="http://www.examiner.com/article/gop-official-says-god-chooses-to-bless-raped-women-with-pregnancy"]http://www.examiner....-with-pregnancy[/url]
[/quote]

First let me say this: As a conservative political person (Not a Republican) and a Christian...Someone should staple this woman's mouth shut. She is an embarrassment to all Christians on the face of this earth. Even Calvinists wouldn't say this.

[Chreees]

I agree. I wonder who's up next to make the stupid rape comment of the day.


Tapatalk'd via iPhone

[Venger]

Like every person in the news they are the sound bytes they want you to hear. Not all men hate women. Not all Christians hate Gays. Not all Gays care about marriage. Not all whites are racist. Be very careful the opinions you form reading or hearing the quotes that are meant to provoke a reaction. I am a fiscal conservative,social liberal,christian and there is nothing more I would like than my government and country be successful. I just don't think either side have all the answers and we all need to step back and see where the the truth is amidst the lies they tell to tickle our ears.
Ray

[gramps]

That makes perfect sense, Ray.

Oh, I still have my KUB cap from when I worked in your city back in the '80s. Nice place.

[DrSmokes]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1346428967' post='555560']
First of all.... Sorry, know too much of history of both religion and "holy books" to base my thoughts on the subject of abortion on either of those two items, so please, for the sake of argument, let's leave religion out of medical issues. (Let me not get started on that rant, puh-leze.......)

Secondly.... As I've said before, I'm big on personal responsibility especially for women, by making sure if you're of a fertile age, you are on birth control period, every single day whether you're having sex or not. If you are, even if you are raped, you won't get pregnant. It's a life. Unless you actively desire to create a life, you should every single day be taking a simple step to avoid creating one. Period. No excuses, no "I didn't plan to have sex", no nothing. Stuie, your friend was of college age. She should have been on birth control. She was a consenting adult, she was fertile, she was a sexual human being. Abortion is NOT birth control. It is barbaric and should almost never be necessary.
[/quote]
Just to point it out...birth control works month by month. So after you use it month after month, the odds of it not working actually increase.

Not to mention all the side effects birth control has on people. I knew someone who's wife actually died because of BC. When you are messing with the body's chemistry...bad things can happen.

And like you said, it's not hard to put a jacket on it...girls need to be pimp smacking the guys if they don't wanna wrap the "big guy" up. Guys will not say no to having sex, so if they say "condom or nothin", the guy will ALWAYS pick condom.