Over Reaction

[Stuie]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/12/us-libya-usa-attack-idUSBRE88B0EI20120912

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/world/meast/egpyt-us-embassy-protests/index.html

Insult Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, Buddha, Moses, Yahweh, Confucius, or other religious figure heads catch a little flack for a week or so and be written off as insensitive.

Insult Mohammed well, I wouldn't recommend that.

[Rani]

Unbelievable.........

I have issues...... First of all I have issues with a movie nobody knew about, screened exactly once in a nearly deserted theater, being the cause of it. How would they even know about it half the world away, if our "freedom" of the press weren't loving stirring crap up making money off their "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality. And Reverend DumbAss promoting it, should be defrocked by whatever organization ordained him. It won't stop him and his hate, but it would certainly slow him down a bit. Even better, defrock him, grab up him and his congregation of what is it now, twenty? And drop them right in Kabul to preach. Two benefits: They finally understand that maybe, just maybe, it's not a good thing to stir up a shit storm; and we're finally rid of his trouble making, hatred spewing ass.

Romney trying to make political gain out of an event that's exactly 24-hours old and calling the current administrations response "shameful". What response? It's been one day! Were we supposed to send the drones and bomb the place including the innocent men, women and children, into glass without even finding out exactly who was responsible, if the new Libyan government is going to do anything, etc? Sure, we've got nothing else going on, right? No Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran and Israel looking to play us for a patsy yet again helping them fight their war because they're our "ally". Yeah, right. Romney and his war-mongering defense profiteering cronies are just drooling at the idea of another war and all those billions in spend by the Pentagon, without even a concept of the American lives that would be lost if we escalated this to boots on the ground. Let's not kids ourselves. For them this is about the money to be made off madness.

I'm disgusted with the press, I'm disgusted with Romney, I'm disgusted with the movie maker, the idiot preacher, I'm disgusted with Congress for having sent money in foreign aid for decades knowing it was eventually going to backfire........ The only person I'm not disgusted with right now is a president who's actually thinking about things before moving forward. If he sits on his ass the next couple months doing nothing I'm going to be disgusted with him too. And while we're at it, the non-extremist Islam community needs to speak up if they don't want to be lumped in with the loony tunes. They are way too quiet sometimes, and since I have many Muslim friends I do understand they're ashamed of this type of behavior and want no connection with it, but until they become more vocal decrying it, the extremists are going to think all of Islam is supporting them. And that isn't true.

'Rani

[Stuie]

Terry Jones is on the same level of credibility and should be paid as much attention to as Westboro. That's what I wondered to Rani... 99.99% of america has no idea about this movie, how did the middle east know.

[Stuie]

I guess my frustration is they keep calling them extremists.

There really isn't a word for it... Reverend Al Stirring up race issues, Westboro boycotting soldier funerals... that's extremist.

Christians killing abortion Doctors and Muslims killing people just because of a stupid $500 budget movie...it's not extremist... it's FUCKING PSYCHOTIC! Due to what I am sure is years of Propaganda and Brainwashing by an Psychotic Misinformed, Twister of Truth, Leader not wanting to get their hands dirty.

As a Christian I will gladly stand up and denounce these psychos and extremists. From what I understand there is an air of fear to do that in the Muslim Culture.

[gramps]

We reap what we sow.

[mushrat]

Tine for a little more reaping im afraid. Time for folks to be afraid of US for a change.

[Stuie]

You know I think I have been reading too much conspiracy theory stuff... now my head is all messed up.

Obscure movie that talks bad about Islam barely made it out of Florida, some how ends up in the Middle East sparking Riots on US Embassies in Egypt and Libya just 2 months away from a Presidential Election where the Current Administration is grabbing on to anything because the economy is going to hurt their position.... wasn't this a page out of W's playbook?

[gramps]

The same playbook that Alex Jones has been reading. Alex hits more often than he misses.
It does look a little too orchestrated, doesn't it?

[Chreees]

Meh, not nearly as orchestrated as Iraq. One of these days those WMDs will be found, y'all!

This image seems relevant:

[IMG]http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p40/INCUBUSRATM/Funny%20pics%20and%20gifs/freeshitoutofyou.jpg[/IMG]

MURICA- Constantly "helping" the world by sticking our noses where it don't belong...

The only foreign conflict I've really agreed with in recent times was Afghanistan, but only to catch the summabitch and his posse who was behind 9/11. At least we finally caught that bastard. All these other things, especially Iraq, are huge clusterfucks and we shouldn't be involved at all. Too much of our money being invested for no real long-term return due to the instability of the entire region. Syria is a sad situation, but I personally don't believe we should be involved because we just can't afford to be the world police anymore. Never should have been in the first place...

[Stuie]

I agree with that Chris I think there is a line though. We don't need to be the police of the world...we can't afford it and we do it to often we like a bully and not a buddy.

I think if there is Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, or general MASS Death going on, we should step in. Other than that...Hey they are grown ups they can sort their own shit out.

[Chreees]

[quote name='Stuie' timestamp='1347546506' post='556296']
I agree with that Chris I think there is a line though. We don't need to be the police of the world...we can't afford it and we do it to often we like a bully and not a buddy.

I think if there is Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, or general MASS Death going on, we should step in. Other than that...Hey they are grown ups they can sort their own shit out.
[/quote]

I agree. But why haven't we intervened in situations such as Darfur? I guess there isn't anything in it for us besides spending money and using resources to save people.

As Yoda would say- Profiteering campaigns, these are.

[Rani]

From what I've been learning, or reading, or whatever..... From the beginning, this nation was built on what benefited it's self-made aristocracy. They were mis-fits in Western Europe where quality was determined by bloodline and they basically couldn't get in. They come to this new uncharted land and can declare themselves anything they want. Remember, they actually wanted to make George Washington a king and themselves aristocracy. It was old George who actually insisted it go another way. But still.... You're scum of the earth shopkeepers until you come to America and get to be a profiteer and your money becomes the new "bloodline" that makes you special. All you have to do is kill off an entire people and hey, it's all yours for the taking. That's the basis of this nation and it hasn't changed much.

If you want to see the history, start with what we did down South. Latin and South America was originally quite wealthy, cultured and powerful. But they were very nationalistic, and in many ways socialistic. They believed in taking care of themselves first. (Kind of like Israel these days.....) That didn't work for American businessmen seeking to take advantage of more indigenous people they looked down on. So we literally destroyed their power. All those illegal aliens we complain about all the time? Our own fault. We made them poverty stricken enough to need to sneak North of the border for survival. If you don't believe me, look it up. Of course, England did the same thing to India. Tried again with Japan and China and failed miserably. France and Viet Nam pre-war. The more powerful people within the more powerful nations have always sought to consolidate and increase their own wealth at the expense of those the consider beneath them. It seems to be one of those human natures we should be ashamed of.

We tried all this in the Middle East. Control of the oil brought even greater wealth and power to American businessmen. And all they had to do to get it, once again, was overwhelm an indigenous population. Of course, thanks to the Crusades, this time the locals weren't quite so willing to either die off or go away. And we created a generation who despised us. Meanwhile, our government financially backed their rulers who were often unbelievably corrupt and were frequently destroying their own people, also adding to their personal coffers.. And the next generation hates us because we enabled the cruelty and despotism. Now we're a few generations in and we're still meddling. And it has zip to do with "democracy". It has to do with money and retaining power and control over the oil that has spawned multi-billionaires. And if you think all the locals are too stupid to realize it, just because local customs haven't progressed at the rate the West thinks is proper, you'd be very, very wrong.

So now we have everybody wanting boots on the ground and payback. Not exactly the best idea. In the first place we can't afford it financially. We're still fighting, though winding down, on two fronts. And we haven't paid for either of those, thank you G.W. Secondly, the majority of the American people don't agree with us being there at all. Sure, an incident like this one gets people riled up, but still most Americans think we have no business in the Middle East period. And thirdly, there's the morality of the issue. Every single time we go to war on foreign soil, we are making war on children. It's not about a small percentage of terrorists who if left alone would likely die out on their own eventually. It's about an entire new generation seeing us wage war at the expense of their homes and schools and brothers and sisters and parent........ It's guaranteed to raise the next generation of terrorists. And haven't we had enough of them, yet? Do we really want to make more?

The new government of Libya has deeply apologized and promised retribution. Could be that means closer ties with American business interests. And so we end up backing yet another potentially corrupt government who may or may not enrich themselves at the expense of their people. That remains to be seen. But I do know one thing..... Whatever happens won't happen because of outrage, or payback, or anything else. It will happen because the business interests that now own our government will do whatever makes them the most money. It's all they've ever done. All the way back to 1776.

'Rani

[headhunter]

well said Rani, very well said. Pretty much summed it all up in those few paragraphs +1 for truth.

[gramps]

I agree with that except for one point. Both wars are the same war and both have been paid for. Spending on the military is one of the very few legitimate functions of our Federal government according to the Constitution. Yes, they waste money by the billions on it, but it is at least a legitimate expenditure.

If your household budget gets blown out because you took a very expensive vacation, you can't blame the house payment or power bill for putting you over budget.

[Rani]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1347570086' post='556315']
I agree with that except for one point. Both wars are the same war and both have been paid for. Spending on the military is one of the very few legitimate functions of our Federal government according to the Constitution. Yes, they waste money by the billions on it, but it is at least a legitimate expenditure.

If your household budget gets blown out because you took a very expensive vacation, you can't blame the house payment or power bill for putting you over budget.
[/quote]

Since they are still daily adding to the deficit and not "pay as you go", I would still say they have not been paid for. However, I will agree they are the same war. Two slightly separate fronts, but still based on the same surprisingly inaccurate information. No WMD's and apparently Osama Bin Laden hadn't been in Afghanistan for some time. From the government point of view that's just a minor "ooops!" Of course the defense contractors are still making bank, so it barely rates a "my bad".

'Rani

[gramps]

Don't you just love how defense projects are spread around numerous Congressional Districts so that they are impossible to cut? If we could find a more efficient way to produce the military goods we need, we could save billions.

[Rani]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1347579548' post='556333']
Don't you just love how defense projects are spread around numerous Congressional Districts so that they are impossible to cut? If we could find a more efficient way to produce the military goods we need, we could save billions.
[/quote]

Absolutely. The problem is that defense contractors do not license their designs. So if someone comes up with something the purchasing people in the Pentagon like, they will pretty much pay through the nose for it. They won't be able to get it elsewhere. So they almost have a locked patent on whatever it is. The Pentagon would be substantially more cost efficient if they worked similar to other design/build industries. Design and build/manufacture should be separate contracts. Works in every other industry, it would work in defense purchasing as well I think.

'Rani

[Rani]

I've got something else I want to say on this subject. I've been reading the bulletin boards across the internet the past couple of days and I am unbelievably appalled at what passes for "American" today. The deaths in Libya are a tragedy by any description, and yet I see people using them as the opportunity to spread hate, and division, bigotry, and racism. Each side accuses the other of pulling the race card, but there is no way to avoid seeing that this kind of disgusting outpouring would never happen if Barack Obama were white. The death of four Americans in service has brought out the worst in people. They see nothing but their own bitter hate-filled agenda of making certain the black president is reviled. They post, and post, and post again and again that it's all his fault, that his hands are bloody, that he personally caused this, that he ordered Marines guarding the embassy to use non-lethal ammunition, and so on and so on. Anything to try and sway a saddened public to their bigoted side. There has been almost no compassion for the family and certainly no acknowledgment of how our government and especially a president operates. The lies and slurs and vitriol and just ugliness of spirit are boiling out of people that I would be completely ashamed to claim as fellow nationals.

This is the first time I have ever been given reason to be ashamed to be identified as an American. If evil lives it's within the soul of all these people claiming to be us, when they are NOT representative of who we believe we are. These people are NOT worthy to be called American. They are NOT what we stand for. People of fairness and peace and heart need to refute these soulless bigots no matter what flag they stand under. And make certain that they will never, EVER, be us.

'Rani

[gramps]

[quote name='Rani' timestamp='1347657218' post='556397']
[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1347579548' post='556333']
Don't you just love how defense projects are spread around numerous Congressional Districts so that they are impossible to cut? If we could find a more efficient way to produce the military goods we need, we could save billions.
[/quote]

Absolutely. The problem is that defense contractors do not license their designs. So if someone comes up with something the purchasing people in the Pentagon like, they will pretty much pay through the nose for it. They won't be able to get it elsewhere. So they almost have a locked patent on whatever it is. The Pentagon would be substantially more cost efficient if they worked similar to other design/build industries. Design and build/manufacture should be separate contracts. Works in every other industry, it would work in defense purchasing as well I think.

'Rani
[/quote]
We've had weapon systems and equipment that the military has said it does not need or want, and Congress absolutely refuse to end the programs because it would cost jobs in key districts. Makes you want to pull your hair out.

About Obama and racism -- hard to be racist against Obama; he's half white. The best description I've heard that fits him is what my mother said. He's like the dog that caught the car; now that he has it, he doesn't know what to do with it.

[Rani]

[quote name='gramps' timestamp='1347660906' post='556401']


About Obama and racism -- hard to be racist against Obama; he's half white. The best description I've heard that fits him is what my mother said. He's like the dog that caught the car; now that he has it, he doesn't know what to do with it.
[/quote]

True to a point..... but...... Anyone who lived through the civil rights movement, and affirmative action, Rodney King, etc., cannot not possibly have been unchanged. However much we can publicly embrace diversity, still there are unconscious gut reactions that are undeniable. I've been told by others that I'm about as unracist as it gets. (Not patting myself on the back, bear with me...) And even I notice those who are different from myself. I lock my car doors more in minority neighborhoods. I'm more cautious, paying closer attention to potential threat, etc. And there's nothing I can do about except when examine it when I notice it. So if someone who is the opposite of racist still feels those instinctive reactions that were built into my unconscious, then so do most "normal" people. Normal in this case being people who don't go out burning crosses in white hoods.

My family is from the South and I grew up hearing just about everything ugly about racism. And don't forget I'm also a Native American who looks white, so people speak their minds thinking they speak to one of their own. It's ugly, seriously ugly, the way most people feel about minorities. All "minorities" (lack of a better word) whether race, or religion or gender or orientation. People hate this man on a physical level that has zero to do with anything he has or has not accomplished. I've got a guy I work with that I talk politics with now and then. He hates Obama and said he may not vote at all. When I asked him why he hated Obama he didn't have an answer. I asked about legislation. He likes what he's done so far. I asked about his policies. He agrees with him. So we finally get down to why he hates Obama and he says "I don't know. There's just something about him I hate." This is the attitude of America these days. And I find it both shameful and disastrous for any hope of a future.

'Rani