Government Throwing The Hammer

[Rani]

Are you kidding me?? I can't count the number of people who think we are a "Christian nation" and don't have any consideration for those who have different beliefs. These same people often misquote the founding fathers every chance they get.

All I'll ask is, when do you think "In God We Trust" was printed on our money, and "Under God" was added to our Pledge of Alleigance?

 

Well "in God We trust was added sometime in the 50's and I believe the same for the "Under God".

 

And Rani, your claim that Hitler was Christian made me do some research, I found this.

 

" It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.^[2][3]The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form ofdeism. Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian. This view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann which are contained within Hitler's Table Talk, an influential translation of which was completed by historian Hugh Trevor-Roper."

 

 

So I'm curious where you got your info from, if the Historians and biographers all say he was anti-christian, I'm inclined to believe that.

 

His personal beliefs are somewhat murky from what I recall, however he absolutely claimed Christianity at one point including the whole Jews killed Jesus as an excuse for eradication.  Way back when I was in high school, a VERY long time ago, a history teacher brought in documents that were copies of some of his early writings.  It was in those that the claims were made.  He did later reject almost all organized religion as an excuse to seize property.  Whether later historians accept or reject his personal beliefs is later than my time of study.  However if push came to shove, I'd believe the evidence I saw with my own eyes rather than reports of people trying to dissect the mind of what was clearly a raving lunatic by any standard.

 

'Rani

[ChicagoRSX]

Are you kidding me?? I can't count the number of people who think we are a "Christian nation" and don't have any consideration for those who have different beliefs. These same people often misquote the founding fathers every chance they get.

All I'll ask is, when do you think "In God We Trust" was printed on our money, and "Under God" was added to our Pledge of Alleigance?

 
Well "in God We trust was added sometime in the 50's and I believe the same for the "Under God".
 
And Rani, your claim that Hitler was Christian made me do some research, I found this.
 
" It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.^[2][3]The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form ofdeism. Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian. This view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann which are contained within Hitler's Table Talk, an influential translation of which was completed by historian Hugh Trevor-Roper."
 
 
So I'm curious where you got your info from, if the Historians and biographers all say he was anti-christian, I'm inclined to believe that.

 
His personal beliefs are somewhat murky from what I recall, however he absolutely claimed Christianity at one point including the whole Jews killed Jesus as an excuse for eradication.  Way back when I was in high school, a VERY long time ago, a history teacher brought in documents that were copies of some of his early writings.  It was in those that the claims were made.  He did later reject almost all organized religion as an excuse to seize property.  Whether later historians accept or reject his personal beliefs is later than my time of study.  However if push came to shove, I'd believe the evidence I saw with my own eyes rather than reports of people trying to dissect the mind of what was clearly a raving lunatic by any standard.
 
'Rani

So he's clearly a raving lunatic, yet it's acceptable to lump him in with all Christians and hold them accountable for his actions?

[fai0607]

I've never seen such a perfect example of Godwin's Law before haha.

 

But I thought I'd add my thoughts on this too-- I follow the Taoist philosophy (there's some debate going on whether it is a philosophy or religious belief) but I declare myself to be atheist. For the sake of this post, let us assume that Taoism is a religion moreso than a philosophy. Sure, you have the added "God Bless America, In God We Trust, Under God" etc etc, but who's God exactly? Christain? Islam? Jewish? With saying "God", you are not including polytheistic religions such as Hinduism or Olympianists and--of course-- leaving out atheists. People who say we are founded as a Christain nation prove how ignorant they are to our own history.

 

People escaped from Britian more than just religion, but let's keep things simple. People wanted religious freedom. How that equates to Christian nation I couldn't tell you, and one of our founding fathers was a Quaker.

 

(You in this post = hardcore christians) Why should I and every non-Christian have to succumb to YOUR customs? If you TRULY want to make an argument about us being a religious country, then you must certainly agree to teach ALL forms of religion at school, teach ALL types of Gods/beliefs/prayers/traditions. Include Zeus while you're at it too.

 

No? Just want your CHRISTIAN God? Okay good. Go to church and be done with it. There is absolutely no reason to include YOUR God and not others. Here in Colorado Springs, there is debate going on about omitting God in the last sentence before being sworn into the Airforce Academy. One can elect to say it or not, and of course the hardcore Christians here get their paties into a bunch and begin to spew BS about the US being a Christian nation. The best part? Someone told me to get out of this country because I was an atheist lol and they said that I "shouldn't believe in a false religion."

 

Christians aren't the problem. Assholes are.

[Rani]

 

 

Are you kidding me?? I can't count the number of people who think we are a "Christian nation" and don't have any consideration for those who have different beliefs. These same people often misquote the founding fathers every chance they get.

All I'll ask is, when do you think "In God We Trust" was printed on our money, and "Under God" was added to our Pledge of Alleigance?

 
Well "in God We trust was added sometime in the 50's and I believe the same for the "Under God".
 
And Rani, your claim that Hitler was Christian made me do some research, I found this.
 
" It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.^[2][3]The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form ofdeism. Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian. This view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann which are contained within Hitler's Table Talk, an influential translation of which was completed by historian Hugh Trevor-Roper."
 
 
So I'm curious where you got your info from, if the Historians and biographers all say he was anti-christian, I'm inclined to believe that.

 
His personal beliefs are somewhat murky from what I recall, however he absolutely claimed Christianity at one point including the whole Jews killed Jesus as an excuse for eradication.  Way back when I was in high school, a VERY long time ago, a history teacher brought in documents that were copies of some of his early writings.  It was in those that the claims were made.  He did later reject almost all organized religion as an excuse to seize property.  Whether later historians accept or reject his personal beliefs is later than my time of study.  However if push came to shove, I'd believe the evidence I saw with my own eyes rather than reports of people trying to dissect the mind of what was clearly a raving lunatic by any standard.
 
'Rani

So he's clearly a raving lunatic, yet it's acceptable to lump him in with all Christians and hold them accountable for his actions?

 

If the shoe fits........ Seriously there are WAY too many WAY too far over the sanity line these days.  All you have to do some of the crazy shit they're writing and demanding everywhere.  However, I do want to point out one fact.... Hitler was a politician.  A crazy one, but still a politician.  What his personal beliefs were may have been correctly interpreted by his biographers, but like every scuzzy politician he embraced publicly whatever served his agenda and at one time it was the Jews killed Christ version.  What he truly believed is probably anybody's guess.

 

'Rani

[Chreees]

Are you kidding me?? I can't count the number of people who think we are a "Christian nation" and don't have any consideration for those who have different beliefs. These same people often misquote the founding fathers every chance they get.

All I'll ask is, when do you think "In God We Trust" was printed on our money, and "Under God" was added to our Pledge of Alleigance?

 

Well "in God We trust was added sometime in the 50's and I believe the same for the "Under God".

 

Do you know why? Because of the whole Cold War scare. It was commies back then, now it's the socialists. They claim we need to "put God back into our government," but when you ask them which or whose God, it catches them off guard... For example, I asked my boss if he thinks prayer should be put back into school. "Absolutely!" he exclaimed. "So you're okay with Muslims facing Mecca and praying 5 times a day at school?" I asked him. He hesitated but finally responded, "Uh, I guess so, if that means the Christians get to pray as well." I know what his answer would have been had he been talking to one of his southern-bible-belt Christian buddies... He claims we were founded as a Christian nation, when in fact we were definitely not. Our founding fathers saw firsthand how dangerous it is to claim one religion for the entire country (it is why they left Britain, after all). If they had, we would not have grown in the positive ways that we have as a nation. I truly and honestly believe that religion has no place in our government. They shouldn't be making decisions based off of their personal beliefs, but rather what is good for the country as a whole and doesn't benefit nor suppress any one religion. It's what the founding fathers wanted, and it just makes sense, so why the hell aren't we doing it??

 

I'm agnostic and believe we cannot as humans comprehend God. Every religion is just someone's interpretation of what God is. The Bible is just a collection of stories that may or may not be true. Same for the Quran and every other religious book out there. No one will ever convince me that one book is absolute and is the only way. I just try to be a good person, and highly believe in karma to keep me on the right path. Whatever lies ahead after I die, I dunno. But I don't let that scare me into believing in one certain religion. I respect others' decisions when it comes to their personal beliefs. I've known Christians, Muslims, etc. Out of all of them, I've met the most hypocrites who just happened to be Christian. All of my family is Christian and know I am agnostic, and respect my decision and beliefs.

 

I believe what this country needs is better morals, not religion...

[Rani]

Here's my final statement on Christianity...... Jesus was a very cool dude.  His fan club are 99% a bunch of freakin' loonies if you ask me.  That's a personal opinion of mine and nobody has to agree with it.  By the way, I feel exactly the same way about Mohammed and his fan club but that's a separate conversation.  And why do I feel that way?

 

Well my feeling actually started to turn on 9/11 when I had to join my neighbors and protect the children of an Islamic school in the neighborhood because all the Christians were carrying signs and threatening kids accusing them of being murdering heathens.  

 

I never met a witch who burned anybody at the stake.  I never met a Jew who started a Holocaust.  I've never heard of a Voodoo priest who cursed anyone for not being Vodoun.  I've never heard of a Ba'hai who protested at the grave of fallen soldiers.  Or a Druid who invaded another country trying to convert it.  The list goes on and on and on.  And even Muslims don't cross the world to convert people.  They pretty much follow their belief and want to be left alone.  However Christianity has a LONG history of killing off the competition, and frankly I'm not a fan.  Especially since I'm a Native American who saw me entire heritage become a victim of Christian focused genocide.  So sue me.  Just note I have no objection to anyone being a Christian.  Whatever gets you through the night in peace.  What I do object to is it being forced on the rest of us every single time we turn around and twice if we're doing something fun.

 

'Rani

[Chreees]

 

 

 

lol

[mustang67n]

LOL chris, those are great

 

Also, fai0607, glad to see a new member willing to jump into the thick of our debates on here!

[Chreees]

They were great pictures that perfectly portrayed just how ironic conservatives can be.

[CarePolice]

As an actual lefty, both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are horrendously right-wing. As a socialist, calling Obama a socialist is an insult to socialists.

[Chreees]

Majority of Americans don't even know what socialism MEANS. Certain media outlets have made it an evil-sounding word, just like communism in the 50s. It's just the latest scare tactic the right has chosen to use.

[Rani]

Majority of Americans don't even know what socialism MEANS. Certain media outlets have made it an evil-sounding word, just like communism in the 50s. It's just the latest scare tactic the right has chosen to use.

 

And what I find funniest of all, we HAVE a very well functioning and highly advantageous socialist working part of our government.  It's call the United States military.  If you verify what a socialist organization actually is, you'll find the military fits the description perfectly.  And yet nobody seems all that worried about THAT now do they?

 

'Rani

[Rani]

Forgot to mention, I find the overall stupidity of people amazing.  Why doesn't anybody just sit down and THINK for God's sake?

 

'Rani

[fai0607]

Majority of Americans don't even know what socialism MEANS. Certain media outlets have made it an evil-sounding word, just like communism in the 50s. It's just the latest scare tactic the right has chosen to use.

 

And what I find funniest of all, we HAVE a very well;f functioning and highly advantageous socialist working part of our government.  It's call the United States military.  If you verify what a socialist organization actually is, you'll find the military fits the description perfectly.  And yet nobody seems all that worried about THAT now do they?

 

'Rani

Just shows you how ignorant people are. This is not any different from what Chreees said.

 

My liberterian friends throw that word all the time. Even calling the entire country of Canada socialist because of their healthcare.

[Chreees]

Fact of the matter is, no one system is perfect. Only until we figure out that a combination of pieces of each of them together best suits our interests, we will continue to fail as a country.

 

My eyes weren't really opened up on the subject until I took a sociology class in college. Changed my perspective on everything...

[CarePolice]

Very few know, for sure. The historical definition of socialism is that the means of production (factories and their equipment, farms and their tractors, all general business) is owned and ran by the employees of said establishment democratically, instead of one or a few people telling everyone else what's best. That was until the USSR came along (which wasn't socialist) and the US government seized an opportunity.

An extension to that is communism, which is (sorry for all of you McCarthy fanatics out there), a government-less, moneyless, non-hierarchal society. To that end, any modern political party or candidate is pretty much right wing, with a few exceptions. One example would be Kshama Sawant, an openly revolutionary socialist candidate running for city council in Seattle. So far she has a small majority vote and is looking to win the seat :)

But yeah, by historical definition, even the nordic countries, which are considered "democratic socialist" are not even remotely socialist, and they're having economic trouble just the rest of the capitalist world.

[Rani]

Here's something I sometimes wonder about...... What could we accomplish if we WERE a benevolent socialist society?  I mean, think about it for a moment.  How much stress would be removed from your life if you didn't have to climb the capitalist ladder to success?  How much time could you devote to family?  To art?  Philosophy?  Education?  Betterment of out whole world?  If we weren't chasing some kind of remote and almost impossible to catch dream life of wealth?  What if everyone had a roof over their head?  Not a mansion, but a decent dwelling where you could raise your children in peace?  What if food was all collectively grown?  All you had to do was go pick it up.  Same with clothing, etc.  All available through collective cooperation.  If all that pressure were off us, what could we accomplish?  What worlds could we explore?  Dreams we could make real?

 

Now, I realize humanity as a whole isn't prepared for collective cooperation.  We're way to immersed in greed to get there until there's some great crisis in the future, like actually running out of those resources we're hoarding and exploiting.   But imagine if we were.  Nothing would be out of our reach any more.  Chasing the capitalistic dream of "more, better, mine" actually holds us back from out potential.  What could you do if all the things you have to chase on a day to day level were provided?   If we stop and think about what we could have if we all worked together for the betterment of all, it really makes what we have now pretty sad, doesn't it?

 

'Rani

[CarePolice]

That's the central tenent of socialist, and the socialist movement. Believe me, I've heard all of the "it doesn't work because human nature/incentive/etc" and they've all been debunked. Successful socialist systems have been active and worked in the past. Always on a small scale, because they're shut down quickly by external capitalist influence.

The question one has to ask themselves is if socialist/communism/anarchism didn't work, why would the government spend billions of dollars to keep us believing it. They wouldn't. They would just let us try it and left as we came crawling back. The US government (all major governments, in fact) KNOW that socialism works, and works better. But by becoming socialist, they lose their grip on power. Socialism appeals to those who actually have the power in society; us, and the working class in general. It scares the shit out of them.

[fai0607]

That's the central tenent of socialist, and the socialist movement. Believe me, I've heard all of the "it doesn't work because human nature/incentive/etc" and they've all been debunked. Successful socialist systems have been active and worked in the past. Always on a small scale, because they're shut down quickly by external capitalist influence.

The question one has to ask themselves is if socialist/communism/anarchism didn't work, why would the government spend billions of dollars to keep us believing it. They wouldn't. They would just let us try it and left as we came crawling back. The US government (all major governments, in fact) KNOW that socialism works, and works better. But by becoming socialist, they lose their grip on power. Socialism appeals to those who actually have the power in society; us, and the working class in general. It scares the shit out of them.

 

 

Here's something I sometimes wonder about...... What could we accomplish if we WERE a benevolent socialist society?  I mean, think about it for a moment.  How much stress would be removed from your life if you didn't have to climb the capitalist ladder to success?  How much time could you devote to family?  To art?  Philosophy?  Education?  Betterment of out whole world?  If we weren't chasing some kind of remote and almost impossible to catch dream life of wealth?  What if everyone had a roof over their head?  Not a mansion, but a decent dwelling where you could raise your children in peace?  What if food was all collectively grown?  All you had to do was go pick it up.  Same with clothing, etc.  All available through collective cooperation.  If all that pressure were off us, what could we accomplish?  What worlds could we explore?  Dreams we could make real?

 

Now, I realize humanity as a whole isn't prepared for collective cooperation.  We're way to immersed in greed to get there until there's some great crisis in the future, like actually running out of those resources we're hoarding and exploiting.   But imagine if we were.  Nothing would be out of our reach any more.  Chasing the capitalistic dream of "more, better, mine" actually holds us back from out potential.  What could you do if all the things you have to chase on a day to day level were provided?   If we stop and think about what we could have if we all worked together for the betterment of all, it really makes what we have now pretty sad, doesn't it?

 

'Rani

"Why do I have to pay for my DEADBEAT neighbor?"

"Why do I have to use my success for those who cannot succeed?"

"Why do I have to pay more taxes because I'm successful? Anyone can be successful! They are just lazy deadbeats that want government handouts!"

"Why can't they work and support their own ass?"

 

I think we all can see a trend here... But with this I add, the situation is NOT the same for everyone else and no one is ever TRULY equal in opportunity. Underserved areas and born in poverty definitely contributes to that. Any background. One will be hell-bent coming from a lower-middle class family to make it to the top rather than someone born into upper-middle/upper class and are there already.

[CarePolice]

Yeah, that's my point exactly. I hear all of those all of the time. There's this very egoist viewpoint in most of America. If someone isn't rich here, they blame it on everyone else or the government or their parents, yadda yadda, without ever taking the time to realize that it's not other people that prevent it; it's the system itself. It is inherent in capitalism that there is a rich minority and a poor majority. It can't function any other way. Without this paradim, it is simply a market system, which is not necessarily capitalist.

 

Additionally, those with a bit better opportunity are convinced the system worked for them, and to an extent, it might have. This ignores the fact that they still have to slave away 40-70 hours a week to pay for all this useless crap that they've been forced into thinking (since childhood) is the only measure of humanity. These are the ones who defend the system to the ends of the Earth, despite the fact that the system is only benefiting those in power. It has been that way since the dawn of capitalism. Every economic argument you hear about the "harmonious and voluntary exchange of goods and services" is crap. "Oh, but someone volunteered to work for me". Yeah, you'd volunteer to work for someone to if the only alternative was starvation.

I can't tell you how infuriating it is to hear that "redistribute wealth" crap from either side of the spectrum, although redistributing wealth has shown to be more effective in the short term (Nordic countries for example, who are themselves facing crises right now). Socialism, communism, anarchism, etc, are not about redistributing wealth. They around about eliminating it entirely.

[fai0607]

I am not informed enough to form an opinion/concrete stance on this issue, but I've heard those same people complaining about people on welfare.

 

Well gee, considering if one comes from a disadvantage home is trying to better themselves and can only land a minimum wage job (which is -supposed- to afford essentials, correct?) temporarily to get experience, a minimum wage job can NOT afford an apartment depending on where you live. Coming from Long Island, minimum wage jobs are practically only for students otherwise there is just no way. Minimum wage workers have to be on food stamps to supplement their little money while the big cats just sit on their asses and literally waste like 400k on a luxury car and other unnecessary items.

 

But I believe that if someone is successful enough, they should be allowed to spend how they want and how much they want. It's the huge imbalance and how they are destroying the middle class. Want to stop a lot of people on food stamps? Increase minimum wage. But wait! Wouldn't economics fall into play here?

 

The system is too complicated and I honestly cannot tell you how it should or shouldn't work. But I believe one should not be restricted if they happen to make a lot of money (i.e MDs who slaved themselves to get to where they are and in that MASSIVE debt). However, there also needs to be a much stronger middle-class. Not everyone can be successful businessmen or doctors, hell do you know how much social workers are usually paid? 35k/avg the last time I checked and that's a MASTER'S DEGREE + LICENSURE job! The problem of well-educated individuals drowning in debt and getting paid shit wages (depending on the career) is also a glaring issue.

 

Just my two cents and what I see is happening.

Edited November 14, 2013 by fai0607

[CarePolice]

I'd have to agree, largely. That fact of which you speak if much of what's kept me from pursuing my Ph.D in physics. In today's society, it's largely superfluous (think I used that in the proper context). Even further, the state of education today is less of education and more of indoctrination. "We'll teach you whatever you want to know, as long as it's ________ and used only in that way". Economics for example. There is an ardent movement to keep Marx's work out of economics today.

A hardcore capitalist when faced with a Marxist perspective would be forced to at least reconsider certain aspects of economics; particularly the fact that capitalism is and always will be unstable and exploitative. There is no reconciling this. It is inherent in any system in which there is a central conflict. In capitalism, there is an eternal struggle between employers, who want their employees to work for less money and longer hours, and the employees, who want to work for more money and fewer hours. Marx did not start a communist; it was only after fully analyzing capitalism and its short-comings that he reasoned the only way to deliver the promise of freedom, equality and brotherhood, which he argued capitalism had failed at, was to eliminate the root-cause. This is, of course, a hierarchal pyramid-shaped society, in which the producers of surplus are alienated from the fruits of their labor and have no say in the distribution/destination of said surplus. At its heart, capitalism can only function when the producers (proletariat in Marxist theory) are short-changed, so to speak. No employer would hire a worker if they were not getting a cut; but this entails paying the employee a dimished shared of the profit. Commodities (anything which is sold/bought in a market) to not magically create a surplus of profit.

Sorry, I realize that was a bit of a rant; my cage has been rattled a lot this week. At the present time, I would agree largely that a livable wage is necessary not only for basic quality of life, but for the empowerment of the working class. Do you know what the minimum wage would be as of 2012 if the wages had sustained themselves to approximately the same level as the production that granted them? $22.78 an hour. That would be the MINIMUM WAGE, which is considered to be a very healthy wage in our society. This discrepancy, which has been worsening since the 70's--at which point the wealth gap between capitalists and workers was 48:1; it is now over 400:1--and will continue to do so thanks the large pool of surplus work available, but shortage of work for them to perform.

For this reason, our society has organized in a hierarchal way. It is because of this patriarchal hierarchy that racism, classism, sexism, and several other isms I can't recall of the top of my head exist, at least according to Marxist theory. In order to eliminate the symptoms, you must treat the disease; something which I fear will not be achieved through reforming our current government. Those in power have proven historically to be unwilling to part with it.

TL;DR Viva la revolucion!

Edit: I feel I should apologize. Didn't quite mean to monopolize that which was a thread that had little to do with my current subject of conversation. Just so darn emotional 'n such.

[Coleman]

Who was it that said party's will be the death of politics and do nothing but drag us down? Granted that's somewhat paraphrased it still rings true. It's not the left or right that's the issue it's for profit politicians groomed for presidency and senate-hood. The people that have no grasp on what it's like to be brought up in the lower or middle class. As for religion it is only good for three things, corrupting dividing and controlling. We can't afford to get our selves out of debt or fund scientific research or our school system. (Sequester cut 50 million to sciences this year) yet if we HALVED our military spending we would still have the best funded military in the world. We are wasting money on pointless wars acting like we are doing it for the good of the people yet we are slaughtering innocent civilians left and right (America is the greatest terrorist group out there right now). Now granted I'm just a young man and am still not as informed as some of you this shit pisses me off. And what about our struggle back home. No one is willing to stand up like we are supposed to and tell these corrupt officials this is it we the American people are taking things back in to our hands (even though it's not only our right but our DUTY to do so). That's all I have to say for now, but if you see anything wrong with what I've said tell me so I can learn, but There's no sense in sitting idly by watching as things get worse we need to stop sitting on the internet and complaining as take to the city halls and state offices and use the voices we all have Sent from my iPhone using [URL=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk[/URL]

[CarePolice]

I feel your pain, Coleman. I'm a young man as well. 24 in February. I've known my entire life that something was off. Used to call myself a Democrat, but always felt this knot in my stomache about it. Realized there had to be more to the world. Took a year of educating myself to arrive to the conclusions I've arrived at. You may be happy to know, however, that the foundations for the change we desire is being laid as we speak. Capitalists are leaving the country; if you want to get a glimpse of the future, look to Detroit. Capitalism left there, too.

However, there is now an openly revolutionary socialist in Seattle city council, and she's not taking any BS. In light of a socialist candidate in office, Boeing (the aircraft manufacturuer) threatened to leave the city as a result. She basically said "go right ahead, we'll just take the factory over and do it for ourselves". Not in those exact words, but... well, here.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/seattle-city-councilmember-elect-shares-radical-id/nbxbC/

The future is nigh, and it's going to be an interesting decade :)

[Coleman]

My buddy told me about her the only issue I've seen with her is she is raising the minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour now I think that's great for people but what they don't realize is that the cost of living is about to skyrocket when the minimum wage is raised an don't get me wrong I understand it's damn near impossible to be self sufficient in most places on a minimum wage job without going off the grid (I tried and failed miserably) but is the heightened cost of living really worth it when even with that raise you still can't support yourself on your own? Sent from my iPhone using [URL=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk[/URL]